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DG made the right calls

Giants : 9/15/2020 4:20 pm
took a lot of heat for some of his trades or allowing a player to leave. Now as time has passed it looks like DG made the right call. Collins got paid but has not produced. OBJ got his money then got traded away. Has not produced close to his pay. Plus had another injury and missed games. Now he doesn't look like the same player he once was.
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RE: It really is amazing to me  
djm : 9/15/2020 9:58 pm : link
In comment 14973633 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
that we have so many smart posters on this board who can't help themselves and can't see the bigger picture. Asking things like "well why aren't we good then?" is a complete lack of awareness to how building a team in the NFL works.

You build through the draft and smart free agency signings. The roster that DG took over, may have been the worst roster in all of football, in all seriousness. It was that bad. Zero depth, zero plan, and bad contracts throughout the roster.

You can't reverse that in 1 season, let alone 2. You have to flush it all down and start over, which they have finally done. And now that they've finally done it (post 2019) you guys want to know why we suck?


Couldn’t have said it better. This is perfect. You want to get on DG for not kicking the rebuild off sooner? Like pre 2018? Ok. But there’s no proof he could have traded those vets off 3-4-5-6-12 months sooner than he did and not cutting eli didn’t hamstring the giants one fucking bit. That was always a made up urban legend. Maybe DG tried to hang on one year too long with those fa moves he made in 2018 but oh well, they spent some money on locker room older vets that were outta here 2 years later. Big deal.

From a roster building asset mgmt pov we are in terrific shape. We just need to coach the talent up and go from there. Yes we need wins. But some of you refuse to see the slow burn building process that DG has facilitated. It’s as clear as fucking day. One loss and it’s an all out war on DG as usual. Can we let this season play out first? It just might be ok. Young players!
RE: RE: RE: At worst, you can say he's been hit and miss  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/15/2020 10:01 pm : link
In comment 14973878 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 14973614 81_Great_Dane said:


Quote:


In comment 14973526 BlackLight said:


Quote:


But it really does seem like people focus too much on the misses.

A lot of fans forget that EVERY team misses on picks.



Also consider that every team hits on picks. Has Gettleman outproduced a large number of his GM peers?


In terms of the draft, the Giants are above the league average of having drafted players on the team. That's just one metric, but Reese for a couple of years was last and next to last using that metric.

But I do not believe that's the only way to judge a GM or their drafting prowess

However, Reese literally had two drafts that just 3 years after had yielded 0 and 1 players remaining. That;s really hard to overcome
RE: Enzo  
Enzo : 9/15/2020 10:08 pm : link
In comment 14973808 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Since the probability of turning into an average NFL player ( much less above average) goes down with each slot in round one and each round after that - how does the probability of building a roster work mathematically in your model?

It does if you get lucky in a year and it most likely actually weakens the talent pool unless you do it for depth after...after you have a core of above average players (like NE did for a few years).

I submit that its the wrong model for this part of the talent building staircase

DG has made a lot of draft picks and he's been at the helm of rosters of varying quality. It would seem he does not think it's a worthwhile strategy at any time.

Because Jones and Lawrence are looking like studs I'll forgive  
SGMen : 9/15/2020 10:19 pm : link
trading up for Baker.
Getting rid of OBJ despite the contract will turn out to be a very good move for us.

Just a shame he signed Shurmur to be HC.
"Coach the talent up"?  
Greg from LI : 9/15/2020 10:24 pm : link
You need talent to coach up first.
I can't wait..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/15/2020 10:28 pm : link
until we start winning and people have dug in so hard on their takes that the only conceivable answer to the W's will be that Judge is a miracle worker with the worst talent in the league.
Greg  
ryanmkeane : 9/15/2020 10:31 pm : link
they admittedly made half measures for a long time, basically from 2014-2018.

Again, DG cleaned the entire roster out and started fresh in 2019. And this was something that most fans wanted him to do. If you can’t be patient, why bother?

I think a lot of the DG hate is carried over from the 2013-2017 years. And that’s hilarious to me because he was the GM of the Panthers winning divisions and going to the SB during those years.
RE: I can't wait..  
Greg from LI : 9/15/2020 10:36 pm : link
In comment 14973912 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
until we start winning and people have dug in so hard on their takes that the only conceivable answer to the W's will be that Judge is a miracle worker with the worst talent in the league.


I admire your patience! Gonna be a bit of a wait......
Sure, he starred fresh  
Greg from LI : 9/15/2020 10:39 pm : link
Question - how many Giants can you honestly say project to be top 10 at their position? Barkley, obviously. Lawrence, probably. Thomas might. Maybe Jones and Slaton.

Beyond those guys, there ain't much.
RE: Sure, he starred fresh  
Eric on Li : 9/15/2020 10:49 pm : link
In comment 14973925 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Question - how many Giants can you honestly say project to be top 10 at their position? Barkley, obviously. Lawrence, probably. Thomas might. Maybe Jones and Slaton.

Beyond those guys, there ain't much.


Are you only considering drafted players? You just named 5 players in 3 drafts and I'd imagine they think McKinney could be #6. Hernandez may still have a chance too.

What do you consider the appropriate number per draft?

If you are also considering acquired players I'd add LW and Bradberry.
RE: Sure, he starred fresh  
ryanmkeane : 9/15/2020 10:53 pm : link
In comment 14973925 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Question - how many Giants can you honestly say project to be top 10 at their position? Barkley, obviously. Lawrence, probably. Thomas might. Maybe Jones and Slaton.

Beyond those guys, there ain't much.

If you’re asking about a projection for top 10 at their position, I’ll go with: Thomas, Hernandez, Barkley, Jones, Slayton, Lawrence, Martinez, Bradberry, McKinney. Jury is way out on Holmes and Peart, but they absolutely have the tools to be a top 10 nickel CB and RT. But again, kind of useless to project them as they haven’t played a down.

DG has had 3 drafts. During these drafts I think he’s done quite well to re stock the roster with talent. There have been some big misses in FA that have not hurt the roster long term. There have also been some hits in FA, it has been a mixed bag. DG has another offseason to get some pass rushers, LB, and perhaps more OL help if needed. It’s going to take another offseason before we can finally say “ok, this looks good now.” Or “ok, ya know what, maybe these guys just aren’t very good.”

We have one of the youngest teams in the league now that DG has cleared everything. Our QB has played 13 games. Our LT has played 1. I just checked and Barkley turned 23 in February. New head coach who actually has a plan for the program. Let’s see what the product on the field is at week 12 of this season. If it’s awful, I’ll agree it might be time to give DG the pink slip. If it’s steadily improving week over week and we are in the mix for the division, then he deserves to keep it going without question.
...  
christian : 9/15/2020 10:55 pm : link
I think the Giants will be in the playoffs 4 years into Gettleman era, and it could have been year 3.

Gettleman got some major things wrong on his first swing: wrong coach, wrong left tackle, wrong middle linebacker, wrong center, wrong left guard, wrong first round CB.

If the Giants would have rounded out left tackle, middle linebacker, and corner — they could have upgraded 3 different positions. Imagine if they could have addressed center, edge rusher, and WR with the money and resources allocated to Bradberry, Martinez, and Thomas.

You add that to getting QB, RB, the DLs, and the safeties he did get right, this team would be in the mix.
Greg you really can’t use  
ryanmkeane : 9/15/2020 10:56 pm : link
the argument of a top 10 projection, and then say Thomas “might” be top 10. Everyone drafted in the first 4 rounds of the draft has a chance to be top 10 at their position. Thomas was the #4 overall pick! His actual ceiling is an all pro, of course he projects to top 10.
RE: RE: Sure, he starred fresh  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/15/2020 11:03 pm : link
In comment 14973931 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14973925 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


Question - how many Giants can you honestly say project to be top 10 at their position? Barkley, obviously. Lawrence, probably. Thomas might. Maybe Jones and Slaton.

Beyond those guys, there ain't much.



Are you only considering drafted players? You just named 5 players in 3 drafts and I'd imagine they think McKinney could be #6. Hernandez may still have a chance too.

What do you consider the appropriate number per draft?

If you are also considering acquired players I'd add LW and Bradberry.

Leonard Williams is a top 10 DL? Take your pick of DE or DT and I think you’d be hard pressed to actually sell him as top-10. If you’re looking at DE, the pass rush isn’t there. And if you’re considering him a DT, are you really going to claim that TWO of the top 10 DTs in the entire league are Giants? That feels a little bit homerish.
When people hold onto past failed.  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/15/2020 11:05 pm : link
moves as the barometer of how to judge DG today, or apply inconsistent logic, it has made it difficult to discuss his impact and the job he's done.

He unquestionably gets held somewhat accountable for the fallout of the years he wasn't even here. Just in the past week a couple of interesting posts have been made:

- Quick rebuilds can happen. Look at SF.
Except that the SF rebuild took 5 years.
- Gettleman has made no attempt at all to address the Center position
Except that by definition of having a different starting Center, that is certainly an attempt
- Gettleman can't be trusted to evaluate talent. He has handed out terrible contracts to FA's like Stewart and Omameah.
I'm still wondering how keen minds here still don't reference signing Connor Barwin and complain about it a few years later

Even today, there was a big debate about picking Barkley. Why?? The guy is a great player and yet if we had picked Darnold or Rosen, we'd be in a much worse position. What does revisiting that draft do? Not to mention, Barkley is a productive player.

I get Gettleman being second guessed because recent team results have been poor, but to act like he's made hardly any good moves is just being willfully ignorant or stubborn because people dug in on criticizing certain moves - the trade of Beckham being a glaring one.
...  
christian : 9/15/2020 11:14 pm : link
I think Gettleman has made some really good moves. Jones is going to be a good QB, flipping Vernon for Zeitler was great, Slayton all things considered was tremendous, Thomas looks really good, Bradberry was a high quality acquisition on a really smart contract, Golden for 2 years at less than 10M is almost unbelievable. I think there were better alternatives, but Barkley is undeniably a top 3 RB. Lawrence is shaping up to be a top 10 type player.
RE: When people hold onto past failed.  
SGMen : 9/15/2020 11:16 pm : link
In comment 14973945 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
moves as the barometer of how to judge DG today, or apply inconsistent logic, it has made it difficult to discuss his impact and the job he's done.

He unquestionably gets held somewhat accountable for the fallout of the years he wasn't even here. Just in the past week a couple of interesting posts have been made:

- Quick rebuilds can happen. Look at SF.
Except that the SF rebuild took 5 years.
- Gettleman has made no attempt at all to address the Center position
Except that by definition of having a different starting Center, that is certainly an attempt
- Gettleman can't be trusted to evaluate talent. He has handed out terrible contracts to FA's like Stewart and Omameah.
I'm still wondering how keen minds here still don't reference signing Connor Barwin and complain about it a few years later

Even today, there was a big debate about picking Barkley. Why?? The guy is a great player and yet if we had picked Darnold or Rosen, we'd be in a much worse position. What does revisiting that draft do? Not to mention, Barkley is a productive player.

I get Gettleman being second guessed because recent team results have been poor, but to act like he's made hardly any good moves is just being willfully ignorant or stubborn because people dug in on criticizing certain moves - the trade of Beckham being a glaring one.
Well said. DG has a mix of good and bad moves. His drafts have been pretty good overall with the exception of Baker. However, was Baker a bad move because of poor review of character or just plain old bad luck?
RE: RE: RE: Sure, he starred fresh  
Eric on Li : 9/15/2020 11:38 pm : link
In comment 14973942 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14973931 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 14973925 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


Question - how many Giants can you honestly say project to be top 10 at their position? Barkley, obviously. Lawrence, probably. Thomas might. Maybe Jones and Slaton.

Beyond those guys, there ain't much.



Are you only considering drafted players? You just named 5 players in 3 drafts and I'd imagine they think McKinney could be #6. Hernandez may still have a chance too.

What do you consider the appropriate number per draft?

If you are also considering acquired players I'd add LW and Bradberry.


Leonard Williams is a top 10 DL? Take your pick of DE or DT and I think you’d be hard pressed to actually sell him as top-10. If you’re looking at DE, the pass rush isn’t there. And if you’re considering him a DT, are you really going to claim that TWO of the top 10 DTs in the entire league are Giants? That feels a little bit homerish.


The question was phrased as "project to be in the top 10 of their position" - I don't think Lawrence is there yet but he can certainly get there.

And yes I think Williams is in the discussion of top 10 DTs. Donald and Jones are clearly the top 2. Buckner and Cox probably the next 2. Hicks if he's healthy. Then there's the cluster Williams is in with Jarrett, Clark, etc.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 9/16/2020 12:51 am : link
When is DG supposed to be judged on his record?

I thought that if DG did a good job, the Giants could be a playoff team in year three. It’s not a big deal if that’s year four and not three, but when would a supporter jump off the bandwagon?

I thought DG should have been fired this past off-season prior to the team selecting a coach. Since he wasn’t, I think he should be given another two (I don’t think we should hire a GM who had no say in the coach and I can’t imagine wanting to fire Judge after a single year). I see positive signs, especially with Jones - he looks really good.

The thing I care most about this year is seeing development in the OL as the year progresses. I really want to see Hernandez take a step in particular - I think we talk way too much about the Barkley pick and not enough about Hernandez. Hernandez really needs to be a strong starter for this team. We’ve invested way too much in the line to not have a good one by next year. And I think if the line’s good next year, everyone shuts the hell up about Barkley and we have a top ten offense.
RE: ....  
colin : 9/16/2020 4:59 am : link
In comment 14973988 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
When is DG supposed to be judged on his record?

I thought that if DG did a good job, the Giants could be a playoff team in year three. It’s not a big deal if that’s year four and not three, but when would a supporter jump off the bandwagon?

I thought DG should have been fired this past off-season prior to the team selecting a coach. Since he wasn’t, I think he should be given another two (I don’t think we should hire a GM who had no say in the coach and I can’t imagine wanting to fire Judge after a single year). I see positive signs, especially with Jones - he looks really good.

The thing I care most about this year is seeing development in the OL as the year progresses. I really want to see Hernandez take a step in particular - I think we talk way too much about the Barkley pick and not enough about Hernandez. Hernandez really needs to be a strong starter for this team. We’ve invested way too much in the line to not have a good one by next year. And I think if the line’s good next year, everyone shuts the hell up about Barkley and we have a top ten offense.


This is a very rational take. I think what it comes down to is, when do you think the rebuild started? I certainly understand the impatience (I’m not a big DG guy myself), but I think an argument can be made that prior to last season, the full “rebuild” wasn’t set to start til this year.

I believe the Giants were being genuine when they floated the idea of Eli starting all of last year, only to find out through the preseason that DJ was a little further ahead of schedule, than even the coaching staff had anticipate.

Not to give a complete pass to his time prior to this year, as he’s had time retool, and has had some mild success in the draft, but overall underwhelming. That being said, the evident trackshift from “win now” to “long term build,” will buy DG time in ownerships eyes, and is the reason I’m not tearing my hair out.

I think we’re a year away from being competitive. We need a stud pass rusher to be relevant. I think once McKinney returns, if he returns full strength, we have a group of DB’s who could be a lot of fun to watch if we can just get pressure on the QB. We’ve cluster drafted at OL. We have young talent in quite a few spots. DJ has a lot to like, but a few things that still make me nervous. I used to have a 3 year rule with QB’s to know what they really are, but the NFL has changed so much over the past 5-10 years it’s gotten so much tougher.

My point is this: A lot of this hinges on growth of young talent, but we seem to be on the right path if you judge the rebuild based on the past 18 months. Just, it’s hard to look past the years prior when you look at 12 wins in 3 seasons. But, if he hit on DJ and Judge, all of this becomes moot.
I think the rebuild began in November 2018  
cosmicj : 9/16/2020 5:34 am : link
When DG started trading away players. That followed an offseason where the plan was to restock and some September football that convinced the front office that the team talent level was awful.

There’s no doubt that DG grossly misevaluated the roster in the spring of 2018. There are extenuating circumstances, though (th3 ownerships view of the roster, DG’s health situation).

In reality, we are into year 2 of the rebuild, not 3.
I like DG and think he has done a good job  
KingBlue : 9/16/2020 7:07 am : link
He has done more good than bad as many have stated. He has found our QB...and took alot of heat for his path. He was criticized for OBJ trade, which looks better each passing week. He took criticism for Leonard Williams, but dare I say, it is not as hoffific as many claim. Williams is a good, productive player.

He is not perfect and not all of his moves have worked out (name the GM who bats 1000).

Say, what you want... not all of us thing DG is a buffoon.
RE: RE: Sure, he starred fresh  
LBH15 : 9/16/2020 7:20 am : link
In comment 14973934 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 14973925 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


Question - how many Giants can you honestly say project to be top 10 at their position? Barkley, obviously. Lawrence, probably. Thomas might. Maybe Jones and Slaton.

Beyond those guys, there ain't much.


If you’re asking about a projection for top 10 at their position, I’ll go with: Thomas, Hernandez, Barkley, Jones, Slayton, Lawrence, Martinez, Bradberry, McKinney. Jury is way out on Holmes and Peart, but they absolutely have the tools to be a top 10 nickel CB and RT. But again, kind of useless to project them as they haven’t played a down.



I found this to be wholly optimistic. Top 10 projections?

Try Barkley, hopefully Thomas and maybe Lawrence.

That's it folks.
RE: When people hold onto past failed.  
LBH15 : 9/16/2020 7:53 am : link
In comment 14973945 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

I get Gettleman being second guessed because recent team results have been poor, but to act like he's made hardly any good moves is just being willfully ignorant or stubborn because people dug in on criticizing certain moves - the trade of Beckham being a glaring one.


Fair, anybody suggesting their aren't any good moves would be incorrect. But don't act like a critic of DG is going to list those out in their respective posts as often as you would like to see. That's why we seemingly have people like you to look for exaggerations and put your own little exaggeration on them to make your point.

Most importantly on DG, there have been far more bad moves and moves that have simply done nothing relative to improving the team over the past 3 years and that is the problem. Things don't turn on a dime and as we know no GM gets them all correct. But our guy isn't getting enough of them to right the ship. And that is quite damning since the roster he inherited was so poor that most of his players moves should net some positive...correct? But they simply aren't or not enough to create more wins.

As an example, the Offensive Line dramatics that went on with his predecessor, and now him, have simply killed this team for years now. It's not okay just to try and fix it, either get it right or you should and will be fairly criticized, and ultimately replaced. A lot of attention and investment went into this OL. It wasn't done efficiently nor timely on his watch but it was done. It may pay dividends and it may not but it needs to at least start stabilizing soon. Otherwise we are just wasting more time and the careers of the two best players he drafted.
It is hard to fully evaluate  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/16/2020 8:20 am : link
Dave because you don't know how much control he had coming in. Did Mara just say, "Dave, do whatever you need to get this franchise fixed"? I don't think that happened.

I think he is correct in his mantra having to be able to run the ball, stop the run and get after the QB while having a QB that can throw from one. That is just football.

He has made decisions on players that did not work out and some that have. The franchise was in such bad shape talent wise that is takes time especially when you are trying to send a franchise icon QB to a dignified ending. I do believe they are getting very close and the team is getting ready for another nice extended window of winning but they need more good football players.

RE: I think the rebuild began in November 2018  
BlueVinnie : 9/16/2020 8:52 am : link
In comment 14974002 cosmicj said:
Quote:
When DG started trading away players. That followed an offseason where the plan was to restock and some September football that convinced the front office that the team talent level was awful.

There’s no doubt that DG grossly misevaluated the roster in the spring of 2018. There are extenuating circumstances, though (th3 ownerships view of the roster, DG’s health situation).

In reality, we are into year 2 of the rebuild, not 3.


It's getting really old hearing people give Gettleman a pass for year one. In fact, his inability to judge the talent level of players on his own roster is an even more glaring example of how he is not a competent GM.

No matter how you want to paint it, this is year 3 of Gettleman's stewardship. If he can't produce even a .500 record in year 3, he has to go. I'd say a very very small percentage of the Gettleman supporters would have signed up for another 3 years of losing at the time he was hired. While you can't expect miracles in 3 years, you should be able to produce at least a .500 club especially in a league that strives for parity.
RE: It is hard to fully evaluate  
LBH15 : 9/16/2020 8:54 am : link
In comment 14974035 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
Dave because you don't know how much control he had coming in. Did Mara just say, "Dave, do whatever you need to get this franchise fixed"? I don't think that happened.

I think he is correct in his mantra having to be able to run the ball, stop the run and get after the QB while having a QB that can throw from one. That is just football.

He has made decisions on players that did not work out and some that have. The franchise was in such bad shape talent wise that is takes time especially when you are trying to send a franchise icon QB to a dignified ending. I do believe they are getting very close and the team is getting ready for another nice extended window of winning but they need more good football players.


The only thing in the mantra that DG may have achieved is replaced Eli with what looks like a very good QB in Daniel Jones that a team should be able to win with.

The rest of the mantra is empty promises.
I think DG has done a lot right  
Essex : 9/16/2020 8:56 am : link
and I think his detractors, especially in the media, are just dumb as the OBJ trade has shown. However, I do think the original sin that still haunts us to this day was taking Barkley at 2 and not getting Quinton Nelson. He has been in all pro for 2 years and he was a position of need. Barkley makes no sense with this offensive line, He is a great talent but we cannot fully utlilize him and by the time we can, we will be overpaying him and he will have a lot of wear and tear.
RE: It is hard to fully evaluate  
Greg from LI : 9/16/2020 9:00 am : link
In comment 14974035 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
I think he is correct in his mantra having to be able to run the ball, stop the run and get after the QB while having a QB that can throw from one. That is just football.


Three years in, he has failed miserably at accomplishing two of his four goals.
RE: RE: It is hard to fully evaluate  
LBH15 : 9/16/2020 9:07 am : link
In comment 14974069 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14974035 Lines of Scrimmage said:


Quote:


I think he is correct in his mantra having to be able to run the ball, stop the run and get after the QB while having a QB that can throw from one. That is just football.



Three years in, he has failed miserably at accomplishing two of his four goals.


Greg - are you suggesting the Giants can stop the run well enough to be labeled an accomplishment? I hope not.
Wow  
Boatie Warrant : 9/16/2020 9:07 am : link
the hate continues. Guess the grass is always greener when you can use hindsight and pick the best options.

If DG wasn't our GM would OBJ be gone? Would Collins? Would Darnold be our QB? All is and buts.

I think DG is doing a good job. You don't? Thats fine but don't dont pretend to know we would be a better team without him. You have no way of knowing that.

I think..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/16/2020 9:14 am : link
enough people realize that year 1, Gettleman inherited a mess. What plan could he take that would have given immediate success? He came in on the heels of several poor draft classes, high contracts for mediocre players and a defense filled with mercurial players like Jackrabbit, Apple, Snacks, OBJ and DRC.

Collins was a one-dimensional safety who wanted to be paid top dollar. Vernon flashed when healthy, but rarely was and the OL was a mess.

Quote:
It's getting really old hearing people give Gettleman a pass for year one. In fact, his inability to judge the talent level of players on his own roster is an even more glaring example of how he is not a competent GM.


The problem wasn't that we didn't have talent, it was that the talented players we had were either getting too old, were always injured, or were terrible influences on the environment. He's literally overhauled almost the entire lineup now.

What realistically could he have done year 1? If he jettisoned everyone, we'd have been even more screwed with dead money - which already was going to be a problem going forward. He's cleaned that up pretty well.

Look - he's had misses. But coming into the situation he did, even if he made perfect moves in every aspect, there was still a long road ahead because the previous regime left the roster bare or with players that aren't the foundation to build with.
RE: RE: I think the rebuild began in November 2018  
cosmicj : 9/16/2020 9:28 am : link
In comment 14974062 BlueVinnie said:
Quote:

It's getting really old hearing people give Gettleman a pass for year one. In fact, his inability to judge the talent level of players on his own roster is an even more glaring example of how he is not a competent GM.

He shouldn't be given a pass for year 1, but it's not clear how useful the evaluation of his performance that season is in forming your opinion on his future performance. Wouldn't it be better to base a judgement on the last two offseasons instead of that first one?

(FYI, I believe DG will retire the next few months, making this point moot.)
RE: RE: ....  
BrettNYG10 : 9/16/2020 9:29 am : link
In comment 14973998 colin said:
Quote:
In comment 14973988 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


When is DG supposed to be judged on his record?

I thought that if DG did a good job, the Giants could be a playoff team in year three. It’s not a big deal if that’s year four and not three, but when would a supporter jump off the bandwagon?

I thought DG should have been fired this past off-season prior to the team selecting a coach. Since he wasn’t, I think he should be given another two (I don’t think we should hire a GM who had no say in the coach and I can’t imagine wanting to fire Judge after a single year). I see positive signs, especially with Jones - he looks really good.

The thing I care most about this year is seeing development in the OL as the year progresses. I really want to see Hernandez take a step in particular - I think we talk way too much about the Barkley pick and not enough about Hernandez. Hernandez really needs to be a strong starter for this team. We’ve invested way too much in the line to not have a good one by next year. And I think if the line’s good next year, everyone shuts the hell up about Barkley and we have a top ten offense.



This is a very rational take. I think what it comes down to is, when do you think the rebuild started? I certainly understand the impatience (I’m not a big DG guy myself), but I think an argument can be made that prior to last season, the full “rebuild” wasn’t set to start til this year.

I believe the Giants were being genuine when they floated the idea of Eli starting all of last year, only to find out through the preseason that DJ was a little further ahead of schedule, than even the coaching staff had anticipate.

Not to give a complete pass to his time prior to this year, as he’s had time retool, and has had some mild success in the draft, but overall underwhelming. That being said, the evident trackshift from “win now” to “long term build,” will buy DG time in ownerships eyes, and is the reason I’m not tearing my hair out.

I think we’re a year away from being competitive. We need a stud pass rusher to be relevant. I think once McKinney returns, if he returns full strength, we have a group of DB’s who could be a lot of fun to watch if we can just get pressure on the QB. We’ve cluster drafted at OL. We have young talent in quite a few spots. DJ has a lot to like, but a few things that still make me nervous. I used to have a 3 year rule with QB’s to know what they really are, but the NFL has changed so much over the past 5-10 years it’s gotten so much tougher.

My point is this: A lot of this hinges on growth of young talent, but we seem to be on the right path if you judge the rebuild based on the past 18 months. Just, it’s hard to look past the years prior when you look at 12 wins in 3 seasons. But, if he hit on DJ and Judge, all of this becomes moot.


Colin, good post - I think his misread of that year one roster was such a mistake that I lost a lot of confidence in him. I started becoming worried then. I'm very willing to be patient if I think we are on the right track.

With that said, I share some of the optimism. I'm very excited about Judge. The only thing I'd add is that you can get a false positive (or negative) in the NFL: the worst thing for the Giants was the 2016 season, for example. 8-8 might look like progress one year, but we could have just gotten lucky.
If we come out of this with Jones and Judge as the real deal  
Chris684 : 9/16/2020 9:34 am : link
Gettleman hit a home run. Regardless of what the naysayers think.

Furthermore, as time has gone by, a lot of the things he's gotten killed for have looked better in hindsight. Remember the reaction to the Beckham deal? Who's laughing now?

Barkley over the likes of Darnold and Rosen? Looks pretty good to me.

Hell, he was mocked relentlessly for the Jones pick.

Every GM is hit and miss on personnel. Every one of them.

And regarding the decision to stick with Eli a few more years, people need to realize how scarce true talent at that position is. They were talking about this the other night about the Steelers and Ben. If you think you have a guy, even at an advanced age, who has pelts on the wall, and you feel still can get the job done, you're gonna squeeze every last ounce out of his career. The problem with the last years of Eli's career is that there was so much junk and chaos around him between lack of talent, coaching changes/terrible coaches, it was hard to judge what he had left.

Where I've been a bit disappointed in him personally is strictly along the offensive line, which, after 2 full seasons and 1 game, still looks unsettled to me. Also, the hiring of Pat Shurmur which was a complete waste of 2 seasons and many at the time knew it. He is/was a bad head coach. Just a bad hire and it was totally obvious at the time.

If I were to grade Gettleman right now for the last 3 years I'd give him a B. I'm very confident he found our QB. I feel very good about our head coach. The importance of those 2 picks lift what would be an otherwise pretty average body of work so far.
RE: Sure, he starred fresh  
djm : 9/16/2020 9:39 am : link
In comment 14973925 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Question - how many Giants can you honestly say project to be top 10 at their position? Barkley, obviously. Lawrence, probably. Thomas might. Maybe Jones and Slaton.

Beyond those guys, there ain't much.


If this is a knock on DG, the guy has been here THREE years. How many blue chippers can a guy bring in over 3 drafts? I can rip off 4 or 5 and that's pretty damn good.

Plus, we really really really need to let this season play out. it is YEAR THREE. How much time does the average player need to reach his potential? You know, that 2nd or 3rd round or 4th round pick--how long? I'd say it's probably about 2-3 years.

But lets just condemn the entire cake before it's fully baked. Makes sense.
The draft isn't the only responsibility of a GM  
Greg from LI : 9/16/2020 9:42 am : link
Free agency counts, too, and he's done a woeful job of that. Maybe that changes this year with Martinez and Bradberry this year, as they looked pretty good in the first game. Don't think either one is really a difference maker, though even solid starters would represent a huge improvement over Gettleman's previous performance.
what if Carter emrges this season  
djm : 9/16/2020 9:43 am : link
and finishes with 20 QB hits, 8 sacks, 10 TFL and 75 solo tackles? That's solid starter numbers. What if Slayton goes off for 80-1100 and 10 TDs? That's solid #1 numbers. What if Thomas is in fact a STAR LT?

Can we let things play out? Can we all acknowledge that despite some hiccups in 2018, DG has clearly built this thing with the long game in mind?

Look, if this team emerges in January with the same number of questions that it faced prior to week 1, I will be the first to say that DG missed on too many picks and players and it's probably time to move on. But I don't think that's going to happen and I feel even better about that belief after watching this team on MNF. I think more answers are coming than people think. But it's week 1.

We need to see more. It's really as simple as that.
woeful FA?  
djm : 9/16/2020 9:45 am : link
since 2018 that's a stretch. I'd call it uneventful, but this last crop looks terrific.
...  
christian : 9/16/2020 9:55 am : link
I'm typically careful not to assign all actions to Gettleman, and instead general management, because I feel Gettleman/Mara/Abrams coordinate on all decisions.

It's premature to declare anything "right" when you can't win. The Giants haven't had a single week with a winning record since 2016.

I listed a number of moves above I liked, and a number of moves I think smart. But bottomline, if the Giants can't block and they can't defend the pass, they aren't going to win. And until they prove they can do that on a semi-regular basis, nothing is "right" -- just promising.
one thing I'm 100% certain of...  
Greg from LI : 9/16/2020 9:57 am : link
Carter ain't gonna be shit. The guy sucks.
Can we have one single winning season before we proclaim this?  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/16/2020 10:06 am : link
Reading BBI, there are some fans that are perfectly fine with the team sucking for as long as the Giants have and will continue to blow the franchise. But not all of us are.
RE: The draft isn't the only responsibility of a GM  
Bill L : 9/16/2020 10:12 am : link
In comment 14974122 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Free agency counts, too, and he's done a woeful job of that. Maybe that changes this year with Martinez and Bradberry this year, as they looked pretty good in the first game. Don't think either one is really a difference maker, though even solid starters would represent a huge improvement over Gettleman's previous performance.
Isn't it also FA in conjunction with cap flexibility? I mean, maybe you can get all the best FA's but then hamstring you which inevitably brings you back to square one.
RE: I think..  
BlueVinnie : 9/16/2020 10:29 am : link
In comment 14974087 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
enough people realize that year 1, Gettleman inherited a mess. What plan could he take that would have given immediate success? He came in on the heels of several poor draft classes, high contracts for mediocre players and a defense filled with mercurial players like Jackrabbit, Apple, Snacks, OBJ and DRC.

Collins was a one-dimensional safety who wanted to be paid top dollar. Vernon flashed when healthy, but rarely was and the OL was a mess.



Quote:


It's getting really old hearing people give Gettleman a pass for year one. In fact, his inability to judge the talent level of players on his own roster is an even more glaring example of how he is not a competent GM.



The problem wasn't that we didn't have talent, it was that the talented players we had were either getting too old, were always injured, or were terrible influences on the environment. He's literally overhauled almost the entire lineup now.

What realistically could he have done year 1? If he jettisoned everyone, we'd have been even more screwed with dead money - which already was going to be a problem going forward. He's cleaned that up pretty well.

Look - he's had misses. But coming into the situation he did, even if he made perfect moves in every aspect, there was still a long road ahead because the previous regime left the roster bare or with players that aren't the foundation to build with.


You are correct, he did inherit a mess but it was his job to remedy the situation. Instead, he wasted his entire first year by thinking we could contend. It was an egregious error and he should not be given a pass for that. Like I stated in my previous post, I didn't expect us to be a SB contender again in year 3 (although other teams have been able to make very swift turnarounds) but if his record shows 3 consecutive years of losing - he's gotta go.
But..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/16/2020 10:41 am : link
he didn't waste the entire first year.

You can't just discard every player due to contracts. You can't just walk away from Eli without having a backup. As it is, we were left with a lot of dead money, but that was going to be dead money if he turned over the roster immediately too.

Plus, what if he replaced Eli with Darnold or Rosen?

The idea that he set the team back significantly because of his first year is a myth. He still got his franchise RB and what looks like a great choice at QB.
RE: It really is amazing to me  
BestFeature : 9/16/2020 10:46 am : link
In comment 14973633 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
that we have so many smart posters on this board who can't help themselves and can't see the bigger picture. Asking things like "well why aren't we good then?" is a complete lack of awareness to how building a team in the NFL works.

You build through the draft and smart free agency signings. The roster that DG took over, may have been the worst roster in all of football, in all seriousness. It was that bad. Zero depth, zero plan, and bad contracts throughout the roster.

You can't reverse that in 1 season, let alone 2. You have to flush it all down and start over, which they have finally done. And now that they've finally done it (post 2019) you guys want to know why we suck?


I think you're using "let alone" incorrectly. Should be 2 seasons, let alone 1.
RE: I think..  
LBH15 : 9/16/2020 10:47 am : link
In comment 14974087 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
enough people realize that year 1, Gettleman inherited a mess. What plan could he take that would have given immediate success? He came in on the heels of several poor draft classes, high contracts for mediocre players and a defense filled with mercurial players like Jackrabbit, Apple, Snacks, OBJ and DRC.

Collins was a one-dimensional safety who wanted to be paid top dollar. Vernon flashed when healthy, but rarely was and the OL was a mess.



Quote:


It's getting really old hearing people give Gettleman a pass for year one. In fact, his inability to judge the talent level of players on his own roster is an even more glaring example of how he is not a competent GM.



The problem wasn't that we didn't have talent, it was that the talented players we had were either getting too old, were always injured, or were terrible influences on the environment. He's literally overhauled almost the entire lineup now.

What realistically could he have done year 1? If he jettisoned everyone, we'd have been even more screwed with dead money - which already was going to be a problem going forward. He's cleaned that up pretty well.

Look - he's had misses. But coming into the situation he did, even if he made perfect moves in every aspect, there was still a long road ahead because the previous regime left the roster bare or with players that aren't the foundation to build with.


No one with any football sense was looking for immediate success in year 1 (other than maybe DG) so your arguing about a point nobody made.

It was that he wasted a year or so going down a bad path, he brought in a lot of guys that sucked or didn't move the needle and gave up a good amount of picks and $ in the meanwhile. He has brought in good talent too but patience is wearing thin without wins, particularly when you see fundamental issues still not working like establishing at least a stable Offensive Line.
I like the rule for NYG fans  
Chris684 : 9/16/2020 10:48 am : link
that we have to slow down when we talk about our own team but we can go ahead and crown the Jets and Cleveland Browns the moment we make a deal with them or they make a different draft selection than us.
RE: If we come out of this with Jones and Judge as the real deal  
LBH15 : 9/16/2020 10:51 am : link
In comment 14974111 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Gettleman hit a home run. Regardless of what the naysayers think.

Furthermore, as time has gone by, a lot of the things he's gotten killed for have looked better in hindsight. Remember the reaction to the Beckham deal? Who's laughing now?

Barkley over the likes of Darnold and Rosen? Looks pretty good to me.

Hell, he was mocked relentlessly for the Jones pick.

Every GM is hit and miss on personnel. Every one of them.

And regarding the decision to stick with Eli a few more years, people need to realize how scarce true talent at that position is. They were talking about this the other night about the Steelers and Ben. If you think you have a guy, even at an advanced age, who has pelts on the wall, and you feel still can get the job done, you're gonna squeeze every last ounce out of his career. The problem with the last years of Eli's career is that there was so much junk and chaos around him between lack of talent, coaching changes/terrible coaches, it was hard to judge what he had left.

Where I've been a bit disappointed in him personally is strictly along the offensive line, which, after 2 full seasons and 1 game, still looks unsettled to me. Also, the hiring of Pat Shurmur which was a complete waste of 2 seasons and many at the time knew it. He is/was a bad head coach. Just a bad hire and it was totally obvious at the time.

If I were to grade Gettleman right now for the last 3 years I'd give him a B. I'm very confident he found our QB. I feel very good about our head coach. The importance of those 2 picks lift what would be an otherwise pretty average body of work so far.


Publicly stated he misread the roster; 12 wins over three years; worst record in the league; and 0-1 this year with a scary display of supporting one of the most dynamic running backs in the game today.

And he gets a "B"?

RE: RE: If we come out of this with Jones and Judge as the real deal  
Chris684 : 9/16/2020 10:55 am : link
In comment 14974257 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14974111 Chris684 said:


Quote:


Gettleman hit a home run. Regardless of what the naysayers think.

Furthermore, as time has gone by, a lot of the things he's gotten killed for have looked better in hindsight. Remember the reaction to the Beckham deal? Who's laughing now?

Barkley over the likes of Darnold and Rosen? Looks pretty good to me.

Hell, he was mocked relentlessly for the Jones pick.

Every GM is hit and miss on personnel. Every one of them.

And regarding the decision to stick with Eli a few more years, people need to realize how scarce true talent at that position is. They were talking about this the other night about the Steelers and Ben. If you think you have a guy, even at an advanced age, who has pelts on the wall, and you feel still can get the job done, you're gonna squeeze every last ounce out of his career. The problem with the last years of Eli's career is that there was so much junk and chaos around him between lack of talent, coaching changes/terrible coaches, it was hard to judge what he had left.

Where I've been a bit disappointed in him personally is strictly along the offensive line, which, after 2 full seasons and 1 game, still looks unsettled to me. Also, the hiring of Pat Shurmur which was a complete waste of 2 seasons and many at the time knew it. He is/was a bad head coach. Just a bad hire and it was totally obvious at the time.

If I were to grade Gettleman right now for the last 3 years I'd give him a B. I'm very confident he found our QB. I feel very good about our head coach. The importance of those 2 picks lift what would be an otherwise pretty average body of work so far.



Publicly stated he misread the roster; 12 wins over three years; worst record in the league; and 0-1 this year with a scary display of supporting one of the most dynamic running backs in the game today.

And he gets a "B"?


Do you know how hard it is to find a QB in this league?

You've also taken all context out of the state of this franchise when he took over.
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