Tiki on Saquon's Pass Blocking

I realize it's a big no no to criticize Barkley here, but he has some of that "Looks like Tarzan" stuff going on.

He is built like Eddie George but he has no interest in the physical part of the game. That is a big problem.

You can teach a guy like Ahmad Bradshaw to block. But it's hard to teach someone who shies away from contact.

SB is an amazing talent but his blocking approach is as poor as the technique.

been saying since he came back from his injury last year that something's just not right with that guy. point blank, he's playing below average football (and i'm talking about when the opportunities are there; clearly guys hitting him in the backfield is not his fault).

I said this about Engram after the game and I'll say it about Barkley now:

You don't need someone who occasionally hits the big play. You need someone who consistently makes the small play.

his pass blocking is a huge issue.

barkley also fell down running a route the other night and dropped a pass he should have caught

he did not play well at all (i do not blame him for the lack of rushing yards)

Tiki wasn’t a great pass protector right out of the chute either. Neither was a Jacobs or Bradshaw. There’s time to learn. He works hard.

Now do Saquon's ball security!

I do remember watching him pick up a blitz pretty well on one play. I do think he'll get better at this.

In comment 14974177 Big Blue '56 said:

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Tiki wasn’t a great pass protector right out of the chute either. Neither was a Jacobs or Bradshaw. There’s time to learn. He works hard.

Jacobs was very frustrating during his rookie year because of his blocking. I remember being shocked that a RB built like a tank could be so bad at pass blocking. To his credit he did get better over the course of his career.

This is Barkley's third season. He should be a good blocker by now which is a bit concerning. He needs to improve or else the Giants will be forced to use Dion Lewis as their 3rd down back. It also adds another need to the list this offseason.

/question in case I'm seeing things...has Barkley gotten smaller overall in terms of his physique? Maybe it's the way his shoulder pads are different now, but his upper body seems smaller than when we drafted him.

In comment 14974183 Chris in Philly said:

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Now do Saquon's ball security!

😂😂😂

against one of the best defenses in the league with a pieced together OL with no preseason and limited camp. How about we relax? Or nah?

In comment 14974184 bigblue5611_2 said:

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I do remember watching him pick up a blitz pretty well on one play. I do think he'll get better at this.

Good point, I think on the deep Slayton TD he had a key pickup.

Also agree with the poster who said that he hasn't been the same since his injury. Hopefully it's a matter of shaking some rust off.

from a liability to one of the better rush pickups in the league. I remember Eli shoved him from behind after getting sacked as they walked off the field because of the blown assignment.

And bradshaw got better, did it by taking out guys at their legs - yeah occasionally he would get penalized but really knew how to use his size to an advantage.

So improvement can happen.

This was a major issue last year for him and in short sample one-game this year, he's no better.

When you take an RB that high, you really hope to see the complete package by year 3. Hopefully the coaching staff can have a breakthrough here sooner rather than later.

In comment 14974186 Jay on the Island said:

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In comment 14974177 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: Tiki wasn’t a great pass protector right out of the chute either. Neither was a Jacobs or Bradshaw. There’s time to learn. He works hard. Jacobs was very frustrating during his rookie year because of his blocking. I remember being shocked that a RB built like a tank could be so bad at pass blocking. To his credit he did get better over the course of his career. This is Barkley's third season. He should be a good blocker by now which is a bit concerning. He needs to improve or else the Giants will be forced to use Dion Lewis as their 3rd down back. It also adds another need to the list this offseason.

Agree. That said, it’s only game 1 with no real pre-season to work on it with a brand new coaching staff. He also missed a bunch of PT last year with his HAS and even when he returned couldn’t plant that well.

Jim Brown was not a good pass protector. He really didn’t care to. Of course he had a great OL to work with. When we develop our OL that should mitigate things.

That said, of course he needs to improve.

Please stop. Their problems were strictly technique and recognition but they would've gladly run thru a brick wall if you pointed out which one.

Barkley's problem is different IMO. He shies away from contact. That is not an easy problem to fix.

however, I think it's still hard to assess Saquon as a pass blocker. I think these issues really started to be noticed last year when he was clearly not at 100%, not even 80%, those first 5-6 games after coming back from the injury.

The other night, on a couple of occasions, when I watched him, he cut his guy down or slowed him down. On some other occasions, he whiffed big time.

That all said, it's one game, after no preseason with a new coach and a lot of new pieces on the OL. The entire OL looked completely disorganized in terms of picking up assignments, so it's hard to isolate too much on what Barkley did or didn't do. He does need to improve in this area going forward though.

Jacobs and Bradshaw were constantly hurt. Barkley is not getting the injury excuse. It's the NFL. You gotta get it done, or it's Not For Long.

Enough with the excuse making for this guy. I even see above it isn't fair to expect him to play well against good teams. C'mon now.

but he also was dealing with getting hit behind the LOS on all his carries, in addition to having to pick up blockers that ran straight through due to OLine misassignments.

In sum, i'm going to see how the next few games shake out before I make any determination.

organized football so this is just my opinion from watching as a fan (and could be wrong), but I have to believe when you are a RB behind a shitty OL it makes blocking harder since you have no idea where the guy is coming from you are supposed to pick up - or in some cases there are multiple players who "break through the line" and you have to decide who to pick up as opposed to when you are behind a good OL and the guy you are supposed to pick up comes from an expected place.

right now, it's like jail breaks and I'm not sure any RB can pick up these blitzes since the OL can't either.

Tiki would know better than me (and all of us for that matter), but he also had the benefit of playing a lot of his career behind a good line and maybe that just so happened to coincide with when Tiki became a better blocker.

So, it would be nice to have seen some improvement in his blocking. The fact that we haven't yet is disappointing.

will see second contracts with the giants. maybe he will turn the corner this season but thus far he hasn't played up to his potential or his draft status.

In comment 14974206 mittenedman said:

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Jacobs and Bradshaw were constantly hurt. Barkley is not getting the injury excuse. It's the NFL. You gotta get it done, or it's Not For Long. Enough with the excuse making for this guy. I even see above it isn't fair to expect him to play well against good teams. C'mon now.

We get it by now. You wanted Chubb, Nelson or QB at #2, in ‘18.

In comment 14974202 mittenedman said:

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Please stop. Their problems were strictly technique and recognition but they would've gladly run thru a brick wall if you pointed out which one. Barkley's problem is different IMO. He shies away from contact. That is not an easy problem to fix.

The big one he missed was recognition. Thomas started to get the outside guy and then dropped down (correctly, I think) to block the inside rusher. Barkley either didn't see or was late to react to the outside rusher.

In comment 14974206 mittenedman said:

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Jacobs and Bradshaw were constantly hurt. Barkley is not getting the injury excuse. It's the NFL. You gotta get it done, or it's Not For Long. Enough with the excuse making for this guy. I even see above it isn't fair to expect him to play well against good teams. C'mon now.

I'm not really seeing many excuses here. I think most of us are saying the same thing, that he does need to improve in this area, but you have to be fair too. I'm simply suggesting it's more complicated than "He sucks in pass protection". There may be certain truth to that, it is one of his most glaring weaknesses at this point in his career, but there are other factors that play into why this is the case.

Would anyone classify him as a punishing runner?

Tiki, isn’t wrong.

There's surely no reason he couldn't become an outstanding pass blocker - all the tools and smart and hardworking - but he is far from it now.

In comment 14974229 Heisenberg said:

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There's surely no reason he couldn't become an outstanding pass blocker - all the tools and smart and hardworking - but he is far from it now.

Derrr.... agree with Tiki

...so this isn't just Tiki being Tiki.

Duggan:

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Barkley had six catches for 60 yards, including a 38-yard gain on a well-designed screen in the second quarter. But Barkley also had a bad drop and continues to be a liability in pass protection, failing to pick up blitzing cornerback Mike Hilton on a third-down sack in the fourth quarter.

that isnt the point - but theres that sensitivity to any criticism of SB again. Im opining on the thread starter not pushing a personal agenda. if you dont want to discuss, dont.

In comment 14974243 mittenedman said:

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that isnt the point - but theres that sensitivity to any criticism of SB again. Im opining on the thread starter not pushing a personal agenda. if you dont want to discuss, dont.

We’ve all agreed he needs to improve. I believe he’ll get there. NOT because I’m an SB homer, but rather and mainly because he works really hard in practice.

Tiki has a HOF-level ability to get himself right back into the crosshairs of NYG fans time and time again.

In comment 14974202 mittenedman said:

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Please stop. Their problems were strictly technique and recognition but they would've gladly run thru a brick wall if you pointed out which one. Barkley's problem is different IMO. He shies away from contact. That is not an easy problem to fix.

Agreed. He plays like more like Darren sproils than the 220lb specimen he is.

SB ain't an all-around back. HE needs to get better at that. Point blank. I also wanna see him get better at running up the middle, but this is a no-no. Parcells wouldn't play backs that couldn't pass protect. Heck, little Dave Meggett did it well. What's Saquon's excuse?

In comment 14974183 Chris in Philly said:

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Now do Saquon's ball security!

LOL

I don't mean that in a harsh way, but he still seems to have that college do-it-all, score-on-every-single-touch mentality. He's wound up as tight as a drum (you can see it on the ball he caught in first half as he broke into the open field) and isn't taking care of the little things from play to play. Without being trite, it very much is about patience, "taking what the defense gives him", etc.

There's a lot that goes into crafting superhuman athletic ability into an outstanding professional football player. Barkley's at the point in his career where he needs to take that jump in order to realize his potential.

Granted, we also had some poor OL play Monday night, but I see these other issues as part of a trend with Barkley that he certainly is capable of addressing.

Efforts on pass blocking are at the marks below.

0:58 - Not terrible, but not shying away from contact

9:30 - Doesn't seem he recognized it quick enough which led to a whiff

11:07 - Decent cut block to slow down Watt on Slayton's second TD

11:17 - Could say he shied away from contact a bit but still got in Dupree's way to slow him down on the 2 point conversion.

Obviously room for improvement, but I wouldn't say he's adverse to blocking.
Highlights - ( New Window )

In comment 14974265 ron mexico said:

Quote:

In comment 14974202 mittenedman said: Quote: Please stop. Their problems were strictly technique and recognition but they would've gladly run thru a brick wall if you pointed out which one. Barkley's problem is different IMO. He shies away from contact. That is not an easy problem to fix. Agreed. He plays like more like Darren sproils than the 220lb specimen he is.

As evidenced by the fact that he always chooses to cut pass rushers rather than blast them. He’s a 700lb squat guy, a block of granite — but it’s a mentality. Not sure if you can fix it if his brain is yelling “Duck!”

Zeke is, but that's his build/style. He doesn't have that extra gear that Barkley has so its a give/take.

You can't have everything. The areas Barkley is weaker at can be taught. I'd like to also think that getting some running room will will take the focus off the pass rush (a basic football 101 level concept) and thus translate to him being able to definitively pick up his blocking assignments.

to take him out of the offense completely. Now that he is a known liability in the passing game they will continue to work the weak link there as well. It's a major problem.

I also don't think he's been the same back since Tampa last year. Besides the ankle, they roughed him up badly before the injury and it looks like teams know that he's simply not a physical back and avoids contact. It's a worrisome trend.

In comment 14974282 Jim from Katonah said:

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In comment 14974265 ron mexico said: Quote: In comment 14974202 mittenedman said: Quote: Please stop. Their problems were strictly technique and recognition but they would've gladly run thru a brick wall if you pointed out which one. Barkley's problem is different IMO. He shies away from contact. That is not an easy problem to fix. Agreed. He plays like more like Darren sproils than the 220lb specimen he is. As evidenced by the fact that he always chooses to cut pass rushers rather than blast them. He’s a 700lb squat guy, a block of granite — but it’s a mentality. Not sure if you can fix it if his brain is yelling “Duck!”

I would counter that point and ask why he needs to blast them for it to be effective? I get that it looks cool to see your RB de-cleat an on-coming blitzer, but if a cut block gets the job done and prevents a sack, what's the issue? Maybe it's a business decision and he sees it as a way of possibly preventing an injury. As long as he finds a way to pass block effectively, by any legal means necessary, I'm good with it.

In comment 14974277 bigblue5611_2 said:

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Efforts on pass blocking are at the marks below. 0:58 - Not terrible, but not shying away from contact 9:30 - Doesn't seem he recognized it quick enough which led to a whiff 11:07 - Decent cut block to slow down Watt on Slayton's second TD 11:17 - Could say he shied away from contact a bit but still got in Dupree's way to slow him down on the 2 point conversion. Obviously room for improvement, but I wouldn't say he's adverse to blocking. Highlights - ( New Window )

Exactly, this is getting over the top. Can he improve, yes. Is it awful, no. This "shy away from contact" thing is a myth that just won't die on BBI because there is a contingent that wanted someone else in the draft. He runs extremly hard, unfortunately its usually into 2-3 DL in the offensive backfield.

Oh, and for our resident experiment the esteemed adulterer, alligator wearing, throwing players under the bus Tiki, as Stapleton pointed out today Tiki sucked at blocking (some expert):

"Tiki Barber (D) has become a liability as the third-down back."

@sageman01
, Giants' First Half Report Card, @TheRecordSports
, Nov. 4, 1998

"Saquon Barkley is a big man who doesn't want to hit anybody."

And it's not only when blocking.

and probably the most qualified person on the planet to say it.

In comment 14974193 Chris in Philly said:

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against one of the best defenses in the league with a pieced together OL with no preseason and limited camp. How about we relax? Or nah?

Nah. Both the physical and mental part of his pass protection game have been criticized widely across multiple podcasts and radio/written media going back to last season.

But hey, you post here a lot so people should listen to you.

but I do not see a guy who shies away from contact...like someone said it's more recognition and reacting faster..

Tiki was a liability pass blocking his first few years and that is why he should STFU.

is Bakley trying to block Jamal Adams. That is one of the most embarrassing plays in Giants history.

I think pass RB pass blocking is 90% "want to". Saquon seems want no part of it. He should be able to block the pass rusher low if he can muster some want to.

In comment 14974289 bigblue5611_2 said:

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In comment 14974282 Jim from Katonah said: Quote: In comment 14974265 ron mexico said: Quote: In comment 14974202 mittenedman said: Quote: Please stop. Their problems were strictly technique and recognition but they would've gladly run thru a brick wall if you pointed out which one. Barkley's problem is different IMO. He shies away from contact. That is not an easy problem to fix. Agreed. He plays like more like Darren sproils than the 220lb specimen he is. As evidenced by the fact that he always chooses to cut pass rushers rather than blast them. He’s a 700lb squat guy, a block of granite — but it’s a mentality. Not sure if you can fix it if his brain is yelling “Duck!” I would counter that point and ask why he needs to blast them for it to be effective? I get that it looks cool to see your RB de-cleat an on-coming blitzer, but if a cut block gets the job done and prevents a sack, what's the issue? Maybe it's a business decision and he sees it as a way of possibly preventing an injury. As long as he finds a way to pass block effectively, by any legal means necessary, I'm good with it.

He doesn’t need to blast guys to do the job, you’re right. But it is a window into his mindset when he tries to finesse a 200lb CB who he outweighs by 30lbs. And, it’s not like his finesse is working. To be clear, I love the guy — — but superstars face greater scrutiny, based on higher expectations. It’s 1 game, I’m ready for an explosion this week. Hopefully Garrett can get him out in space with blockers

short-comings as a RB for the NY Football Giants. After one fucking game. Against a top-5 NFL defense.

I think I'll press the "ignore" button on this one for now.

In comment 14974303 mpinmaine said:

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but I do not see a guy who shies away from contact...like someone said it's more recognition and reacting faster.. Tiki was a liability pass blocking his first few years and that is why he should STFU.

But damn though, when he tried to leap over the CB on his long screen run I am sure I wasn't the only one holding their breath that he wouldn't land awkwardly.

One game? One game? His first two years didn't happen?

In comment 14974327 arniefez said:

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One game? One game? His first two years didn't happen?

I get it. He needs help in pass pro. This isn't new. Not his forte. But Tiki teeing off on him ... lol ... it's just the next thing Tiki has to shit on, IMO. I've long since lost respect for that assbag.

Great Giants running back. Great big douchebag.

In comment 14974177 Big Blue '56 said:

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Tiki wasn’t a great pass protector right out of the chute either. Neither was a Jacobs or Bradshaw. There’s time to learn. He works hard.

Hey Bruce, hope all is well with you and the family. I totally disagree on Jacobs and Bradshaw. Jacobs killed people in pass pro.. Barkley misses his blocks a lot was completely out of place on one late in the game that allowed a sack.

blocking.... I don't think its the physical part so much as the mental part. He just "doesn't see it" fast enough to block the free blitzer.

He takes hits as a RB so I don't see the physical part as being the issue. He is a HR hitter for sure but our OL, if it improves, he will gain that 1-2-3 yards instead of being hammered 1-2-3 yards in the backfield. It isn't really all his fault.

Twice on Monday night he approached his blocking assignment with his head down and completely missed.

I don't think it's unreasonable for people to be losing patience with him.

In comment 14974292 PatersonPlank said:

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In comment 14974277 bigblue5611_2 said: Quote: Efforts on pass blocking are at the marks below. 0:58 - Not terrible, but not shying away from contact 9:30 - Doesn't seem he recognized it quick enough which led to a whiff 11:07 - Decent cut block to slow down Watt on Slayton's second TD 11:17 - Could say he shied away from contact a bit but still got in Dupree's way to slow him down on the 2 point conversion. Obviously room for improvement, but I wouldn't say he's adverse to blocking. Highlights - ( New Window ) Exactly, this is getting over the top. Can he improve, yes. Is it awful, no. This "shy away from contact" thing is a myth that just won't die on BBI because there is a contingent that wanted someone else in the draft. He runs extremly hard, unfortunately its usually into 2-3 DL in the offensive backfield. Oh, and for our resident experiment the esteemed adulterer, alligator wearing, throwing players under the bus Tiki, as Stapleton pointed out today Tiki sucked at blocking (some expert): "Tiki Barber (D) has become a liability as the third-down back." @sageman01 , Giants' First Half Report Card, @TheRecordSports , Nov. 4, 1998

BUT, your comment seems to stem froma standpoint of just 1 game. Barkley was awful last year in pass pro as well. It isn't being anti SB to say that has to get much better than it is...

He has to improve and fast. Tiki was great at it.

I dont get why we should have kid gloves pointing out holes in his game. The expectation for him should be higher.

Its like the more beloved a player is the more people are willing to dismiss things they kill other guys for.

than stay silent

I gotta admit,I'm worried about this guy. Wouldn't be the first player to establish themselves early,than have it go to their head.

Gives a negative critique of a player on YOUR team, who is playing the same position as that former NFL star...

And instead of acknowledging that this former player may have a good point you either attack him or make excuses for YOUR player not playing well...

Then say hi to Marge, Bart and Lisa for me, because you are a Homer.

Coughlin wouldn't let Bradshaw play until he could block.

It does matter.

And with no experience at Center, and what you hope is a franchise QB under center, its significant.

It's been one game under a new regime and he hasn't had a whole lot of time (14 practices) to possibly learn any new techniques or work at his pass pro under the new regime. From the points I provided in the highlights, I don't believe he was terrible at it against the Steelers and did seem to do OK at it. In sum, lets see how he does over the next few games under the new regime in this aspect before we start declaring things.

on the RB being able to pass protect to be on the field. Hopefully he gets better at it. How would people feel if Jones takes a terrible shot from him missing a block or not executing one and we lose him to injury? It is a serious matter.

Third year elite RB and this has absolutely nothing to do with the D he played against or that it was the first game. Total BS excuse by many. He did not help his QB or team on MNF. If he is elite and a leader start showing up...it's year 3.

In comment 14974351 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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I dont get why we should have kid gloves pointing out holes in his game. The expectation for him should be higher. Its like the more beloved a player is the more people are willing to dismiss things they kill other guys for.

Well said. Saquon’s taking some heat for game 1...let’s see how he responds.

He doesn’t need to be Brandon Jacobs, just improve enough to not be a liability

He seems to be a really nice guy who enjoys going out of his way to help in the community. But it's ironic if he intended his play to be compared to Payton's: while Payton was elusive, when contact was inevitable, he finished every run with a pop. He was a 5'10", 200 lb RB who would blow up every DB or LB who tackled him.

In comment 14974394 TC said:

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He seems to be a really nice guy who enjoys going out of his way to help in the community. But it's ironic if he intended his play to be compared to Payton's: while Payton was elusive, when contact was inevitable, he finished every run with a pop. He was a 5'10", 200 lb RB who would blow up every DB or LB who tackled him.

THIS

To run to the left.

until he was convinced the RB could pass protect. That was the sine qua non of the position.

He didn't even start until year 4 and averaged 8 fumbles a year until coughlin came in and forced him to change.
Barkley is a hard worker and is trying to improve,
Something Tiki didn't bother to do until Coughlin basically told him he wouldn't start unless he got his fumbling under control.
I wouldn't count Barkley out at this point.

In comment 14974441 larryflower37 said:

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He didn't even start until year 4 and averaged 8 fumbles a year until coughlin came in and forced him to change. Barkley is a hard worker and is trying to improve, Something Tiki didn't bother to do until Coughlin basically told him he wouldn't start unless he got his fumbling under control. I wouldn't count Barkley out at this point.

Tiki was a second round pick. Barkley was the number two pick in the draft. Perhaps higher expectations are in order?

Can't it be true that Saquon needs to improve his pass blocking and it's something to keep an eye on the rest of the year?

Can't it also be true that he's really good despite the pass blocking?

One does not negate the other.

& his twin brother, I guess, but Saquon should heed his critique. First you have to want to do it. Second, you need to recognize your markers. Third you need to apply the correct technique. The guy is 240 pounds. That's bigger than most linebackers these days. Stay up. Identify. Engage with extreme prejudice.

Know why? Because other teams will see this on film. The Bears aren't the Steelers on Defense but they certainly have a coaching staff and players to use multiple pressures on Sun.

As for the Parcells comment above, whenever Joe Morris cut blocked a blitzer, Bill sat him down. Different era, I know. But it's time that Barkley starts hearing some criticism.

I watched the Giants post-game delayed coverage on MSG after the game. All Sweet Young Thing wanted to do was talk about Barkley's hurdle. O'Hara, who should know better, didn't.

is to probablyhurdle over him.
He needs to start hitting some fools.

In comment 14974171 mittenedman said:

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I realize it's a big no no to criticize Barkley here, but he has some of that "Looks like Tarzan" stuff going on. He is built like Eddie George but he has no interest in the physical part of the game. That is a big problem. You can teach a guy like Ahmad Bradshaw to block. But it's hard to teach someone who shies away from contact.

If you put Bradshaws brain on Saquons body he would be the RB everyone thought we were getting. But you cannot. He is NOT an every down RB. Can't block and will NEVER get the ball on 4th and 1. His stats are empty and meaningless. He does not help us win.

In comment 14974216 Big Blue '56 said:

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In comment 14974206 mittenedman said: Quote: Jacobs and Bradshaw were constantly hurt. Barkley is not getting the injury excuse. It's the NFL. You gotta get it done, or it's Not For Long. Enough with the excuse making for this guy. I even see above it isn't fair to expect him to play well against good teams. C'mon now. We get it by now. You wanted Chubb, Nelson or QB at #2, in ‘18.

Nope. We wanted Chubb or Nelson PLUS the other premium picks we could have gotten for the second pick. The Barkley pick was a massive failure.

In comment 14974477 averagejoe said:

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In comment 14974171 mittenedman said: Quote: I realize it's a big no no to criticize Barkley here, but he has some of that "Looks like Tarzan" stuff going on. He is built like Eddie George but he has no interest in the physical part of the game. That is a big problem. You can teach a guy like Ahmad Bradshaw to block. But it's hard to teach someone who shies away from contact. If you put Bradshaws brain on Saquons body he would be the RB everyone thought we were getting. But you cannot. He is NOT an every down RB. Can't block and will NEVER get the ball on 4th and 1. His stats are empty and meaningless. He does not help us win.

For a moment, I thought you were talking about TERRY Bradshaw! Mean, and more than a little bit crazy. I still remember a play where a DB had a hold of his left leg in the backfield trying to drag him down while he's looking for a receiver, and with his left hand Bradshaw is PUNCHING the would-be tackler in the top of his HELMET!

Saquon wouldn't be harmed by a touch of junk yard dog.

He may end up having a Gifford-type career where he begins as a RB but extends his career by playing receiver.

that can probably be corrected.

For what it's worth I agree 100% with your feelings about Tiki. Doesn't mean he isn't correct or qualified to make that critique.

I'm not objective. I hated the pick the minute it was made. I hate it more now.

RBs are a dime a dozen and should be cheap. The same thing with run stuffing DLs. Gettleman pays these positions in money and in picks like they're WRs or Edge rushers.

You look at the two teams on the field Monday Night and the Steelers are everything the Giants are not. The Steelers philosophy is exact opposite of the Giants. Which bus would you rather be on?

In comment 14974370 Jim in Tampa said:

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Gives a negative critique of a player on YOUR team, who is playing the same position as that former NFL star... And instead of acknowledging that this former player may have a good point you either attack him or make excuses for YOUR player not playing well... Then say hi to Marge, Bart and Lisa for me, because you are a Homer.

This. Others have said it before, but he struggles to get tough yards between the tackles (and no I'm not referring to getting hit 5 yards in the backfield, no one expects a difference maker in that situation), and has a glaring weakness in pass protection. He looks more like Reggie Bush than Marshall Faulk at this point. Both very talented players, both very different players. Hope the remainder of the season sees the issues play out well for Barkley.

In comment 14974370 Jim in Tampa said:

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Gives a negative critique of a player on YOUR team, who is playing the same position as that former NFL star... And instead of acknowledging that this former player may have a good point you either attack him or make excuses for YOUR player not playing well... Then say hi to Marge, Bart and Lisa for me, because you are a Homer.

This. Others have said it before, but he struggles to get tough yards between the tackles (and no I'm not referring to getting hit 5 yards in the backfield, no one expects a difference maker in that situation), and has a glaring weakness in pass protection. He looks more like Reggie Bush than Marshall Faulk at this point. Both very talented players, both very different players. Hope the remainder of the season sees the issues play out well for Barkley.

In comment 14974581 arniefez said:

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For what it's worth I agree 100% with your feelings about Tiki. Doesn't mean he isn't correct or qualified to make that critique. I'm not objective. I hated the pick the minute it was made. I hate it more now. RBs are a dime a dozen and should be cheap. The same thing with run stuffing DLs. Gettleman pays these positions in money and in picks like they're WRs or Edge rushers. You look at the two teams on the field Monday Night and the Steelers are everything the Giants are not. The Steelers philosophy is exact opposite of the Giants. Which bus would you rather be on?

They let Bell walk rather than pay him and did not miss a beat. Giants will back up the Brinks truck to give Barkley a second contract and will continue to lose.

can anyone sit here and say the Barkley pick was a massive failure?

If he has just a decent season this year, he'll likely have the most yards from scrimmage since coming into the league

the Steelers let Bell and Brown walk and won what, exactly?

In comment 14974620 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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the Steelers let Bell and Brown walk and won what, exactly?

I get what you're saying here but they did lose their QB last year. If not for that they were a sure P.O. team

?

In comment 14974285 UConn4523 said:

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Zeke is, but that's his build/style. He doesn't have that extra gear that Barkley has so its a give/take. You can't have everything. The areas Barkley is weaker at can be taught. I'd like to also think that getting some running room will will take the focus off the pass rush (a basic football 101 level concept) and thus translate to him being able to definitively pick up his blocking assignments.

Alvin Kamala - 5’10 215lbs

Christian McCaffrey - 5’11 205lbs

Ezekiel Elliot - 6ft 225lbs

Saquon Barkley - 6ft 233lbs

Saquon needs to lower a fucking shoulder and stop all this dancing.

In comment 14974434 PatersonPlank said:

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Well, to date, he hasn't been, so....

is like marrying Ms. Universe then complaining about her cooking.

In comment 14974173 GiantNatty said:

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been saying since he came back from his injury last year that something's just not right with that guy. point blank, he's playing below average football (and i'm talking about when the opportunities are there; clearly guys hitting him in the backfield is not his fault).

I wonder about that myself. It just doesn't seem like he's as explosive as he was his rookie year.

In comment 14974617 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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can anyone sit here and say the Barkley pick was a massive failure? If he has just a decent season this year, he'll likely have the most yards from scrimmage since coming into the league

You're right. I think he was great pick. He needs to improve his pass blocking, it hasn't been good. It isn't a reason to shit on all he has been but his pass protection does deserve criticism.

In comment 14974202 mittenedman said:

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Please stop. Their problems were strictly technique and recognition but they would've gladly run thru a brick wall if you pointed out which one. Barkley's problem is different IMO. He shies away from contact. That is not an easy problem to fix.

Does he really though? Are there examples of him simply evading an approaching blitzer in his range?

Maybe he simply doesn't recognize it and react/position accordingly. It's not far-fetched -- we're talking quarter seconds here.

Should we "emulate" a team that hasn't been to a Super Bowl since, oh, before we won our last one, or claim a guy is a "failure" after he's gained nearly 3500+ yards from scrimmage in his first 2 seasons, because he's not "tough" (he looked plenty tough coming back early from injury last year).

That said, Tiki makes reasonable points. If it somehow leads to Barkley taking it up a notch like Eli did in 2007 after getting called out, and Tiki retroactively taking credit for it (again), I can live with that.

In comment 14974307 arniefez said:

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is Bakley trying to block Jamal Adams. That is one of the most embarrassing plays in Giants history.

I remember that, and it looked really bad. I'm hardly knowledgeable in blocking technique (neither is Saquon! Rim shot), but his arm got caught up a bit on one of his linemen and neither of his hands even made contact with Adams. All Adams had to do was just drive right into his chest.

In comment 14974620 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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the Steelers let Bell and Brown walk and won what, exactly?

Two Giants' seasons worth of wins despite losing their starting QB!

In comment 14974826 santacruzom said:

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In comment 14974620 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: the Steelers let Bell and Brown walk and won what, exactly? Two Giants' seasons worth of wins despite losing their starting QB!

Fantastic. I can't wait to see your elation when we get that many wins and miss the playoffs.

In comment 14974253 bigbluehoya said:

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Tiki has a HOF-level ability to get himself right back into the crosshairs of NYG fans time and time again.

Fuck Giants fans.
Stop being so "special."

Tiki is right. SB has work to do. I'd bet Tiki's words help, rather than hurt. (with the exception of a few Giants fans' butts...)

In comment 14974833 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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In comment 14974826 santacruzom said: Quote: In comment 14974620 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: the Steelers let Bell and Brown walk and won what, exactly? Two Giants' seasons worth of wins despite losing their starting QB! Fantastic. I can't wait to see your elation when we get that many wins and miss the playoffs.

You don't think I'd be elated with an 8-8 season this year? Man, if we had any champagne lying around at the end of Monday night's game, I'd have popped the bottle.

8-8 and I will sing Juges praises and welcome Dave back

I mentioned it the day after the game, so that would
be Tuesday. He's in his third year, not a rookie anymore.

...is any criticism of a Giant, or the organization, "shitting on them"? Given the manifest failures of the entire organization, players and staff alike, over the past 8 years, you'd think it would be entirely noncontroversial to criticize them.

And yet.....

Definitely doesn’t have any Brandon Jacobs in his game.

The question will be whether the Giants build an elite OL in front of him so that he rips off enough big runs to minimize the negatives runs.

Tiki knows what he’s talking about. And yeah, he’s self serving tool, but the man knows the RB position and what it takes to pass pro in the NFL.

And he’s not saying anything that hasn’t said before, pass pro is mental. The RB needs to know who to pick up and this is certainly something made much more difficult by poor line play, a new line, both, a 2nd year quarterback, a good scheme by the defense, etc. All of these things conspired against Barks in pass pro on Monday night. He can do better in film study, the line can come together, DJ can get better at setting protections and this will all probably happen.

But pass pro is also about attitude and wanting to hit someone. It’s probably one of the most violent collisions in a sport of lots of violent collisions. And this is something that seems to be lacking in Barks game. If we’re being honest, Bark isn’t a back who “runs angry” and he isn’t good in pass pro and he doesn’t seem like a back that wears down the defense. His game, at least so far, and it’s season three now, is kind of like a DH who strikes out a lot but can turn on any pitch and hit a moon shot tater at any time. Barks can score any time he touches the ball, and sometimes he does and he’s an amazing athlete. But game in and game out? Doing all the things an every down back needs to do? I think it’s fair to start to wonder about Barks overall ability. And again it is year three for him. So, it’s time to put it all together. Hopefully getting called out by Tiki will motivate Saquon.

One last thing to consider, if Tiki sees this, and if Tiki’s saying it, you can believe D-cos are seeing it and you bet that guys in the Giants locker room are seeing it - and even if not saying it yet - I’ll bet they’re all thinking it. It’s time for Barks change some minds and the only way to do that is to go out and get the job done. Enough with all the excuses. Go be the best player on the field and win.

In comment 14975094 trueblueinpw said:

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Tiki knows what he’s talking about. And yeah, he’s self serving tool, but the man knows the RB position and what it takes to pass pro in the NFL. And he’s not saying anything that hasn’t said before, pass pro is mental. The RB needs to know who to pick up and this is certainly something made much more difficult by poor line play, a new line, both, a 2nd year quarterback, a good scheme by the defense, etc. All of these things conspired against Barks in pass pro on Monday night. He can do better in film study, the line can come together, DJ can get better at setting protections and this will all probably happen. But pass pro is also about attitude and wanting to hit someone. It’s probably one of the most violent collisions in a sport of lots of violent collisions. And this is something that seems to be lacking in Barks game. If we’re being honest, Bark isn’t a back who “runs angry” and he isn’t good in pass pro and he doesn’t seem like a back that wears down the defense. His game, at least so far, and it’s season three now, is kind of like a DH who strikes out a lot but can turn on any pitch and hit a moon shot tater at any time. Barks can score any time he touches the ball, and sometimes he does and he’s an amazing athlete. But game in and game out? Doing all the things an every down back needs to do? I think it’s fair to start to wonder about Barks overall ability. And again it is year three for him. So, it’s time to put it all together. Hopefully getting called out by Tiki will motivate Saquon. One last thing to consider, if Tiki sees this, and if Tiki’s saying it, you can believe D-cos are seeing it and you bet that guys in the Giants locker room are seeing it - and even if not saying it yet - I’ll bet they’re all thinking it. It’s time for Barks change some minds and the only way to do that is to go out and get the job done. Enough with all the excuses. Go be the best player on the field and win.

Thread winner. Agree 100%

Marshall Faulk, LaDainian Tomlinson, and Roger Craig all continued to raise their games and diversify their skills through at least theIr sixth seasons, and their stats reflect it. (Tiki peaked in year nine; he’s such a unique case that you almost have to discard him from any discussion of precedents.) So the holes in Barkley’s game, thirty starts into his young career, could be a distant memory by the time he’s done. He’s not likely to earn his hefty paycheck pass-blocking, but I expect his recognition and results to improve with experience.

The Faulk comparison might be the most instructive. Because of his gaudy stats, and perhaps because Mike Martz’s offense is notorious for exposing QBs to fatal injury, Faulk’s blocking is largely overlooked. He was really good. With no legit TE on the field much of the time, he had to be. Faulk had Saquon’s speed, without SB’s natural strength and explosion. His key assets as a blocker, like Tiki’s, were anticipation and rapid processing. I’m pretty sure Barkley will get there. Takes time, though.

Remember, this is something Pat Shurmur quietly was critical of Barkley for, too, his rookie year.

He was trying to get Barkley to just take the handoff and get N-S immediately. He was careful not to be negative about it, but it was something he was trying to coach into SB. IIRC it was the Bucs his rookie year, where he played with a more hard-nosed approach and had a great game. But it didn't last.

he needs to tighten that shit up and fast.

when the team and/or he is struggling. Obviously a competitor, he gets very down on himself when things get tough and we saw this a bunch of times last season. Lack of focus leading to missing protections, dropped passes, trying to do too much.

Didn’t see this much, if at all, rookie year.

Ahmad Bradshaw. God almighty, I loved that guy.

What was the stat, he got hit on average 2 yds IN THE BACKFIELD last week. Just how much momentum do you think can be generated in his first step after getting the handoff to create hard contact? When he got open, like on the screens, he was a battering ram (jumping over people and running through them). This is a myth that needs to go away, like Eli grip strength.

Sure his pass blocking needs to improve, as does every Giants OL/TE/RB player. By the way CMC, Kamara, Zeke don't block for crap either (to answer a poster from above). This difference is that those teams are actually letting the RB get to the LOS before getting hit, so no one seems to care.

plays. He blew I think 2 assignments. Besides that he got pads on everyone and held his own. He didn't look to me like a guy afraid. This is so overblown IMO.

In comment 14974961 WillVAB said:

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Definitely doesn’t have any Brandon Jacobs in his game. The question will be whether the Giants build an elite OL in front of him so that he rips off enough big runs to minimize the negatives runs.

Much as I love Jacobs, I wouldn't use him as an example of a bruising runner. Sure he looked good when he got a head of steam, but he wasn't a pile mover. There's a reason folks called him the "tiptoe burglar."

H-Back (whoever is the best blocker). Split the useless Engram out (or pick someone else who can actually catch), and have Barkley just focus on running or getting out for pass plays. Leave the blocking to the 5 OL and 1 HB guy, who in theory are our best blockers. This way we aren't always trying to have Barkley pick up blitzes. I believe this is what Carolina does with CMC, and I know that Garrett has done this with Dallas. Put the people in the best places for their skills.

In comment 14975214 Greg from LI said:

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Ahmad Bradshaw. God almighty, I loved that guy.

.

He was a better blocker than Jacobs, that's for sure.
Besides his pass catching ability, after a while,
they had Bradshaw in on 3rd downs, not Jacobs.
Once he got over his fumbling issues, liked him as well.
He was a tough S.O.B.

In comment 14975258 DieHard said:

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In comment 14974961 WillVAB said: Quote: Definitely doesn’t have any Brandon Jacobs in his game. The question will be whether the Giants build an elite OL in front of him so that he rips off enough big runs to minimize the negatives runs. Much as I love Jacobs, I wouldn't use him as an example of a bruising runner. Sure he looked good when he got a head of steam, but he wasn't a pile mover. There's a reason folks called him the "tiptoe burglar."

Some truth to that but at least Jacobs was a willing pass blocker and would deliver a blow to a defender when he got a head of steam. Barkley just wants to try to string everything to the outside and jump over defenders.

In comment 14975258 DieHard said:

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Much as I love Jacobs, I wouldn't use him as an example of a bruising runner. Sure he looked good when he got a head of steam, but he wasn't a pile mover. There's a reason folks called him the "tiptoe burglar."

"Folks" didn't call him that. One jackass, Warren Sapp, called him that.

Tiki says a lot of things Giants fans don't want to hear from Tiki. Things they even say themselves. But Tiki better not say them.


Even when they are about a RB.


Which Tiki was. And a damn good one at that.


Bottom line? Tiki has as much or more of a right to comment on this type of thing as just about ANY one else.


Disagree with it all you want, but don't act like he doesn't have the right to state his opinion.

is related to our line's terrible performance as a unit.

For argument's sake, let's say the Giants had the best OL in the league. On passing plays, Barkley would know his assingment and there would only be one guy running free that Barkley could spot because the rest of the line is doing their job well. And so it's easier to recognize and slow down his target.

As the line gets worse, the RB's job is harder because there is more second-guessing about the assignment. On the other end of the spectrum, in the toilet, is the Giants offensive line. They give up pressure quickly and often get beat by stunts and various defensive pressures.

With more guys running free at the QB, I wonder if it causes Barkley, as the last line of defense, to hesitate about whom he should pick up to protect the QB.

In comment 14975519 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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is related to our line's terrible performance as a unit. For argument's sake, let's say the Giants had the best OL in the league. On passing plays, Barkley would know his assingment and there would only be one guy running free that Barkley could spot because the rest of the line is doing their job well. And so it's easier to recognize and slow down his target. As the line gets worse, the RB's job is harder because there is more second-guessing about the assignment. On the other end of the spectrum, in the toilet, is the Giants offensive line. They give up pressure quickly and often get beat by stunts and various defensive pressures. With more guys running free at the QB, I wonder if it causes Barkley, as the last line of defense, to hesitate about whom he should pick up to protect the QB.

Most things in football feed off each other. If the line was better, Barkley's job of blocking would be easier, sure. But things like apparently not seeing the free blitzer, or not anchoring down and getting rolled over, or just reacting to the play faster, are learned behaviors.

Saquon may be two dimensional (taking nothing away from best runner in league). He reads a field like TikI, & pass protects like Wheatley.
BB, has been scheming to his players abilities for years, and it makes me sick. You have to play to your players strengths. It’s obvious this team needs a Suey, Rathman, or Moose.
IMHO, Barkley would be different back from the I formation.
Don’t forget, Garrett, is nobody’s fool, an he is well aware of the cyclical nature of football.

Did anyone see the RB from “UCF,” today.