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Gettleman's been better than Reese but is that good enough?

NYG27 : 9/16/2020 10:29 am
Jerry Reese was so bad for many years and really left the Giants talent level roster wise so thin, that makes the work Dave Gettleman has done for the past 3 years look better than what it truly is.

Absolutely, no denying the Giants roster talent wise is better but the way Reese bottomed out on his way out, it would have been extremely hard for any new incoming GM to NOT improve over what Reese had done. This was never going to be a quick fix and would have taken any incoming GM several years to build a solid foundation.

Positives have been hitting on potentially a Hall of Fame talent like Barkley and finding a franchise QB in Jones. There are also many young talented prospects on both sides that can speed up this current rebuild.

Although the biggest negative in my mind was the quote from Gettleman in his introductory press conference. He stated his focus will be to rebuild the trenches and address both sides of the line. In three full offseasons as the GM he's made several investments with trades, free agents and spent high draft capital on both sides but the O-line and D-line still struggle. Three years of massive investments in the secondary and they still struggle.

Is this 2020 Giants Roster better than the roster Gettleman took over in 2018, yes....although is that good enough?

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RE: He hasn't been better than Reese's first several years as GM  
Ivan15 : 9/16/2020 12:40 pm : link
In comment 14974218 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
when the team won 2 SB's under his watch. The last half of his GM-ship, sure.


Reese inherited a very competitive team and added pieces in 2007 to win the championship. He couldn’t sustain it and 2011 was smoke and mirrors and a QB playing at his best. After 2011, it was all downhill.
RE: RE: RE: NYG27  
NYG27 : 9/16/2020 12:42 pm : link
In comment 14974392 BillT said:
Quote:
And I quote “ s I know it's only one game this year but when our run defense gets mauled by the Steelers who have a back run for 100+ yards and our O-line not being able to block anyone.“. That’s it that’s what you really are basing this nonsense on. One game.


Convenient how you cut out the first part of my comment to make your point. Here's what I said...

Quote:
Based on the lack of production last year, plus I know it's only one game this year but when our run defense gets mauled by the Steelers who have a back run for 100+ yards and our O-line not being able to block anyone.


Here's also what I said to BB56...

Quote:
Bruce, not based on just 1 game, factoring what we've seen from this team since the start of 2019.


Good try though, my comments about your reading comprehension still stands.

ha  
giantfan2000 : 9/16/2020 12:48 pm : link
Quote:
Did you just say that..

the reason for injuries was the conditioning program!!

And all this time I thought it was because Eli purposely was throwing balls high to get them killed


Seriously you don't remember Jerry Palmieri Coughlin's Strength and Conditioning Coach who was so bad that players literally left the Giants because of him


wow how could someone be on BBI so long and yet be so stupid ALL THE TIME ..?? it is an impressive achievement. KUDOS to YOU

Walter Thurmond: Tom Coughlin 'doesn't believe in the modern medicine' - ( New Window )
That's funny..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/16/2020 1:22 pm : link
because we also were one of the most injured teams under Fassel, McAdoo's 2nd year, and Shurmur!

But it was all Palmeri - who players left because of!!!!

Umm okayyyyy
RE: The hate on Reese  
barens : 9/16/2020 1:35 pm : link
In comment 14974298 GManinDC said:
Quote:
Is remarkable. I guess those 2 SB's were so long ago that maybe people are forgetting.

Or just sheer stupidity..


Yup
.  
Walnut : 9/16/2020 1:43 pm : link
DG absolutely has not been better than Reese, even post 2011.

Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.

And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.

DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.
RE: Riddle me this: If the team was so bad when he took over in 2017  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 9/16/2020 1:44 pm : link
In comment 14974331 GManinDC said:
Quote:
Why did the hell did Gettleman say the team can compete in 2017???
It is pretty clear to me that Mara was not prepared to give up on Eli. So they made one more push to get him in the playoffs. That didn't work and, frankly, they should have been tearing things down sooner. There was a comment here recently that Gettleman thought that Eli was done but had to go along with the owner. Which sounds right in terms of the actions of the team.
and Reese hasn't sniffed a job  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 9/16/2020 1:49 pm : link
since. That says a lot.
RE: .  
sb from NYT Forum : 9/16/2020 1:57 pm : link
In comment 14974519 Walnut said:
Quote:
DG absolutely has not been better than Reese, even post 2011.

Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.

And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.

DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.


I don't see how anyone can say with a straight face that Ruben Randall, Bernard Hosley, Markus Kuhn, Damonte Moore, Eli Apple, Paul Perkins and Bobby Hart were "solid starters."

I'd argue that Engram also is not a "solid" starter, being that he has bad hands, can't block and can't stay on the field.

I'll give you Prince. And David Wilson had one good game, but he was a fumbler just like he was in college. Which in my opinion is definitely not "solid."
RE: RE: .  
DieHard : 9/16/2020 1:59 pm : link
In comment 14974539 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
In comment 14974519 Walnut said:


Quote:


DG absolutely has not been better than Reese, even post 2011.

Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.

And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.

DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.



I don't see how anyone can say with a straight face that Ruben Randall, Bernard Hosley, Markus Kuhn, Damonte Moore, Eli Apple, Paul Perkins and Bobby Hart were "solid starters."

I'd argue that Engram also is not a "solid" starter, being that he has bad hands, can't block and can't stay on the field.

I'll give you Prince. And David Wilson had one good game, but he was a fumbler just like he was in college. Which in my opinion is definitely not "solid."


And apart from one season (that happened 4 years ago now), calling Collins a "superstar" is quite a stretch.
RE: I'm in the minority here  
81_Great_Dane : 9/16/2020 2:02 pm : link
In comment 14974247 ShockNRoll said:
Quote:
Bottom line is the most important things for a GM to have to be successful are coach and QB.
DG has said exactly this, more than once. And yes, Shurmur was the wrong coach. I am optimistic about JJ.
RE: He hasn't been better than Reese's first several years as GM  
GMen72 : 9/16/2020 2:18 pm : link
In comment 14974218 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
when the team won 2 SB's under his watch. The last half of his GM-ship, sure.


This! DG has been slightly better than Reese's worst years. That's about the bar that's been set by this organization the last decade, and unfortunately, the fans who defend him. DG is a below average GM.
RE: The hate on Reese  
FStubbs : 9/16/2020 3:14 pm : link
In comment 14974298 GManinDC said:
Quote:
Is remarkable. I guess those 2 SB's were so long ago that maybe people are forgetting.

Or just sheer stupidity..


Didn't you know? If it weren't for Reese Eli would have 6-7 rings.
RE: the secondary...  
joeinpa : 9/16/2020 3:14 pm : link
In comment 14974241 KDavies said:
[quote] he has had McKinney get injured and Baker have his issues, so there goes two high picks there. A third in Beal opted out. What is Gettleman going to do about any of them?

As for OL, they have completely revamped it. Thomas looks good. Solder was a bust, but he was the best FA out there and the Giants overpaid. He spent a 2nd on Hernandez, and made a trade for Zeitler. He invested premium resources in this draft in the OL in Peart, Lemieux, and Thomas.

As for DL, he has invested premium resources in Leonard Williams and Dexter Lawrence.

The DL has been good. The OL has not been good, but a lot of that also has to do with the fact that Engram can't block worth a shit, and Barkley has his struggles as well. If you have an OL going against a D like Pittsburgh, you need some help from other players.

The secondary has had 3 key pieces gone like that. They are doing what they can to cobble things together.

Gettleman is not long with the team due to his age, but he has given the Giants a solid foundation with a good bit of young talent with which to build upon. In reality, the rebuild should have been started earlier, but hindsight is 20/20. I would have done what Gettleman did and stuck with the two-time SB winning QB, and tried to make a last run at the playoffs. They tried that and failed,

That was his big mistake. How did he so badly evaluate that roster and what Eli has left.
Ernie's 4 picks in 2005  
Chip : 9/16/2020 3:16 pm : link
The only 4 picks
2nd round Corey Webster
3rd round Justin Tuck
4th round Brandon Jacobs
6th round Eric Moore

That is how you draft most of them were big parts of 2 super bowls. Bring back Ernie
RE: Ernie's 4 picks in 2005  
FStubbs : 9/16/2020 3:18 pm : link
In comment 14974638 Chip said:
Quote:
The only 4 picks
2nd round Corey Webster
3rd round Justin Tuck
4th round Brandon Jacobs
6th round Eric Moore

That is how you draft most of them were big parts of 2 super bowls. Bring back Ernie


Erine's drafts stunk up until oddly enough, he put Reese in charge of Player Personnel.

Guess who took over that role after 2011? Chris Mara.
Lets not forget that Gettleman  
RollBlue : 9/16/2020 3:25 pm : link
has been drafting at 2, 6 and 4, higher than Reese ever drafted. As things stand currently I'm encouraged by 2 things, the play of Jones, and the new coaching staff. Both have things to "clean" up, but if DG got Jones and Judge right, then we will be in for good times in the next year or so...
Here's what did in Reese: the Superbowl clock.  
FStubbs : 9/16/2020 3:33 pm : link
No, seriously. It was an organization mindset post-2011 that "all we need to do is tweak the roster, get the quick fix, and Eli will go on another run and get us another ring." Every single decision from that point up through even the first half of Gettleman's first year was made with that mindset instead of blowing up the team and doing a true rebuild.

Reese did spend 2 first rounders and a 2nd rounder on offensive linemen in different years, so he did address the offensive line (and failed), but it was never the overhaul it needed. Always the quick fix.

The massive injuries to young players hurt the Giants. But once again, the Giants went for the quick fix. Nicks had a career ending injury? Okay, let's draft Beckham.

When Coughlin retired, instead of getting a new coach, they promoted McAdoo for "continuity", because this team was always one Eli run from a ring.

The ultimately ill-fated 2016 spending spree? A bunch of quick fixes because Reese had cap room that year.

Like I said, this thinking extended even after Reese was fired. I think a huge reason Gettleman drafted Barkley was because he was part of yet another 'quick fix' so Eli could try to make a miracle run. He hired Shurmur because the team didn't need a rebuild, just an "adult in the room" who would get out of Eli's way as he tried to make another run. The rebuild didn't start until midway through that year when DG started trading guys like Snacks.
Post continued:  
FStubbs : 9/16/2020 3:36 pm : link
So ... though I'm not a fan of Gettleman's, I could defend his wretched tenure with the following:

1) Write off his first year. He needed that year to prove the quick fix would not work, no matter who was GM. Barkley may have been a wasted pick, but necessary for the overall direction of the franchise, knowing it needed a rebuild. Framing Barkley correctly, he like Beckham is part of the Eli era, not the Jones era.

2) The quick fix direction of the team since 2011 created a roster that not only was bereft of talent, but had no real philosophy whatsoever. It wasn't a house, it was a haphazard dump of broken bricks. It takes a lot longer to build on that lot than it does an empty lot.
RE: RE: The hate on Reese  
GManinDC : 9/16/2020 3:38 pm : link
In comment 14974635 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 14974298 GManinDC said:


Quote:


Is remarkable. I guess those 2 SB's were so long ago that maybe people are forgetting.

Or just sheer stupidity..




Didn't you know? If it weren't for Reese Eli would have 6-7 rings.



This. I really think people believe that..
RE: Reese..  
GManinDC : 9/16/2020 3:41 pm : link
In comment 14974404 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
was not a trainwreck and he had an integral part in 2 SB's.

No more so than saying George Young was a trainwreck based only on his failure to adapt to FA.

Reese, through a combination of poor injury luck and players who didn't pan out, went several seasons with the draft not helping to add solid starters or depth. That's what did him in as well as never figuring out how to fix the OL.

Let's not act like he was terrible.



People seem to coneveniently leave out injuries and just bad luck. I give up. It ain't even worth it anymore.

RE: RE: Reese..  
FStubbs : 9/16/2020 3:45 pm : link
In comment 14974673 GManinDC said:
Quote:
In comment 14974404 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


was not a trainwreck and he had an integral part in 2 SB's.

No more so than saying George Young was a trainwreck based only on his failure to adapt to FA.

Reese, through a combination of poor injury luck and players who didn't pan out, went several seasons with the draft not helping to add solid starters or depth. That's what did him in as well as never figuring out how to fix the OL.

Let's not act like he was terrible.




People seem to coneveniently leave out injuries and just bad luck. I give up. It ain't even worth it anymore.


It's true. There were injuries and bad luck. But I'm not going to let Reese off the hook for the quick fix era I outlined above. (Unless we know for sure a lot of that was coming from the Maras).

Reese was a great GM in the first half of his tenure and a garbage one the 2nd half. That's what it is. Overall, I'm glad we had a GM that got us 2 rings. Most of the teams in the league would instantly sign up if you promised them the Reese era.
RE: RE: RE: Reese..  
Angel Eyes : 9/16/2020 3:46 pm : link
In comment 14974676 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 14974673 GManinDC said:


Quote:


In comment 14974404 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


was not a trainwreck and he had an integral part in 2 SB's.

No more so than saying George Young was a trainwreck based only on his failure to adapt to FA.

Reese, through a combination of poor injury luck and players who didn't pan out, went several seasons with the draft not helping to add solid starters or depth. That's what did him in as well as never figuring out how to fix the OL.

Let's not act like he was terrible.




People seem to coneveniently leave out injuries and just bad luck. I give up. It ain't even worth it anymore.




It's true. There were injuries and bad luck. But I'm not going to let Reese off the hook for the quick fix era I outlined above. (Unless we know for sure a lot of that was coming from the Maras).

Reese was a great GM in the first half of his tenure and a garbage one the 2nd half. That's what it is. Overall, I'm glad we had a GM that got us 2 rings. Most of the teams in the league would instantly sign up if you promised them the Reese era.

Like the Browns or the Lions?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Reese..  
FStubbs : 9/16/2020 3:55 pm : link
In comment 14974678 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
In comment 14974676 FStubbs said:


Quote:


In comment 14974673 GManinDC said:


Quote:


In comment 14974404 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


was not a trainwreck and he had an integral part in 2 SB's.

No more so than saying George Young was a trainwreck based only on his failure to adapt to FA.

Reese, through a combination of poor injury luck and players who didn't pan out, went several seasons with the draft not helping to add solid starters or depth. That's what did him in as well as never figuring out how to fix the OL.

Let's not act like he was terrible.




People seem to coneveniently leave out injuries and just bad luck. I give up. It ain't even worth it anymore.




It's true. There were injuries and bad luck. But I'm not going to let Reese off the hook for the quick fix era I outlined above. (Unless we know for sure a lot of that was coming from the Maras).

Reese was a great GM in the first half of his tenure and a garbage one the 2nd half. That's what it is. Overall, I'm glad we had a GM that got us 2 rings. Most of the teams in the league would instantly sign up if you promised them the Reese era.


Like the Browns or the Lions?


You're being ridiculous. Let me use the Titans because they've been mostly mediocre forever.

You walk into Titans central and say "you have two options. Option 1 - go the direction you're going now. Who knows where that takes you. Option 2 - you get all of the Reese years." You're telling me they wouldn't want 2 rings?

This is the NFL. If I guaranteed a team a ring in exchange for their next 10 first rounders they'd do it. That's how hard it is to get a ring. Ask Dan Marino and countless others.
I'm starting to think ...  
FStubbs : 9/16/2020 3:59 pm : link
... some of the people in this topic would seriously trade the Reese years for any of Marty Schottenheimer's tenures of being good but not good enough every year.
The Reese haters kind of remind me of the Eli haters...  
trueblueinpw : 9/16/2020 4:00 pm : link
I think it’s actually the same argument, “take away the two Super Bowls and what have you really got?”. Um... okay, but what if we don’t take away the two Super Bowls, because the Giants winning the Super Bowl did happen, twice with Reese as GM, twice against the greatest coach and QB ever, and winning Super Bowls is *the* measure of success in the NFL.

Even if we’re just talking about drafting, I think it’s too soon to say if Getty is as good as JR. Getty supporters tend to point to the draft and say things like, “he drafted a HoF running back and a franchise QB”. Well, I think it’s wildly premature to be sending Barks to Canton and I don’t think we should name DJ8 as the starter for the next decade. Yet. Maybe that’s me being conservative or maybe that’s me wanting to see the results on the field or both and more. But the point stands, Getty supporters tend to look at his drafts, they tend to think these drafts have been home runs because of Barks and Jonesand they tend to think JRs drafts were terrible he inherited a great team and QB and then, I guess, kept just sitting around throwing darts at the Giants draft board while everyone else was busy winning Super Bowls. And to be sure, JR had some misses and the end of his run with the Giants sucked. But, he won two Supes as the GM and might have won a third if Plax was wearing jeans instead of sweatpants.

Anyway, if we put aside Getty’s drafts as too soon to tell, there’s his UFA and trades and picking the HC (or signing off on Mara’s pick for HC). Here I think it’s a bit uneven. He signed OBJ (what was really the option here) and then then when OBJ and Lil Wayne took a shit on the franchise Getty made a good trade. A push at worst. Shurmur was a miss but Judge might be a bullseye. Too soon to tell. The LW trade made zero sense and remains, in my opinion, the most troubling aspect of Getty’s time as GM. Just made no sense and yes, I read all the augments and I like LW as a player and yada, yada. So, it’s too soon to tell about Getty now but probably will not be by the end of this season. It Barks can be a great player on the field, if DJ8 can protect the ball and if AT can protect DJ8 and the Judge can bring it all together with some wins, then I think Getty’s legacy will be as a winner.

Bottom line though? The Giants suck. When they don’t suck, when they start winning games and especially when they start winning Super Bowls, then we can all agree that the GM is a good GM.
So why did Reese fall off the mountain top ???  
Reb8thVA : 9/16/2020 4:05 pm : link
Obviously poor drafting but why was the drafting so poor? Was it over reliance on Marc Ross? Something else? in the end the buck stops with the GM regardless. It will be interesting to see if Reese lands another NFL job.
Why does everyone think Reese  
GManinDC : 9/16/2020 4:29 pm : link
wants another job?. He hasn't said peep since he got fired.

is it possible that after about 30 years of football, a person wants to retire?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Reese..  
Angel Eyes : 9/16/2020 4:30 pm : link
In comment 14974693 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 14974678 Angel Eyes said:


Quote:


In comment 14974676 FStubbs said:


Quote:


In comment 14974673 GManinDC said:


Quote:


In comment 14974404 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


was not a trainwreck and he had an integral part in 2 SB's.

No more so than saying George Young was a trainwreck based only on his failure to adapt to FA.

Reese, through a combination of poor injury luck and players who didn't pan out, went several seasons with the draft not helping to add solid starters or depth. That's what did him in as well as never figuring out how to fix the OL.

Let's not act like he was terrible.




People seem to coneveniently leave out injuries and just bad luck. I give up. It ain't even worth it anymore.




It's true. There were injuries and bad luck. But I'm not going to let Reese off the hook for the quick fix era I outlined above. (Unless we know for sure a lot of that was coming from the Maras).

Reese was a great GM in the first half of his tenure and a garbage one the 2nd half. That's what it is. Overall, I'm glad we had a GM that got us 2 rings. Most of the teams in the league would instantly sign up if you promised them the Reese era.


Like the Browns or the Lions?



You're being ridiculous. Let me use the Titans because they've been mostly mediocre forever.

You walk into Titans central and say "you have two options. Option 1 - go the direction you're going now. Who knows where that takes you. Option 2 - you get all of the Reese years." You're telling me they wouldn't want 2 rings?

This is the NFL. If I guaranteed a team a ring in exchange for their next 10 first rounders they'd do it. That's how hard it is to get a ring. Ask Dan Marino and countless others.

It's honestly harder than it used to be, what with free agency and all.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Reese..  
FStubbs : 9/16/2020 4:46 pm : link
In comment 14974737 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
In comment 14974693 FStubbs said:


Quote:


In comment 14974678 Angel Eyes said:


Quote:


In comment 14974676 FStubbs said:


Quote:


In comment 14974673 GManinDC said:


Quote:


In comment 14974404 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


was not a trainwreck and he had an integral part in 2 SB's.

No more so than saying George Young was a trainwreck based only on his failure to adapt to FA.

Reese, through a combination of poor injury luck and players who didn't pan out, went several seasons with the draft not helping to add solid starters or depth. That's what did him in as well as never figuring out how to fix the OL.

Let's not act like he was terrible.




People seem to coneveniently leave out injuries and just bad luck. I give up. It ain't even worth it anymore.




It's true. There were injuries and bad luck. But I'm not going to let Reese off the hook for the quick fix era I outlined above. (Unless we know for sure a lot of that was coming from the Maras).

Reese was a great GM in the first half of his tenure and a garbage one the 2nd half. That's what it is. Overall, I'm glad we had a GM that got us 2 rings. Most of the teams in the league would instantly sign up if you promised them the Reese era.


Like the Browns or the Lions?



You're being ridiculous. Let me use the Titans because they've been mostly mediocre forever.

You walk into Titans central and say "you have two options. Option 1 - go the direction you're going now. Who knows where that takes you. Option 2 - you get all of the Reese years." You're telling me they wouldn't want 2 rings?

This is the NFL. If I guaranteed a team a ring in exchange for their next 10 first rounders they'd do it. That's how hard it is to get a ring. Ask Dan Marino and countless others.


It's honestly harder than it used to be, what with free agency and all.


It was always hard. While the Giants won 4 Superbowls in the previous 4 decades, how many did the Falcons win? Kansas City finally got their first in 50 years?

There are 32 teams in the league. If you win more than once in 32 years you're playing with house money.
Let's get something..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/16/2020 4:50 pm : link
straight here and it really shouldn't be debated. Nobody is "letting Reese off the hook". Neither the fans nor the team. The man was fired for Christ's sake. He paid with his job for the failed moves the last few years of his tenure

But that doesn't make him a terrible GM or even a bad GM.
RE: .  
ShockNRoll : 9/16/2020 5:17 pm : link
In comment 14974519 Walnut said:
Quote:
DG absolutely has not been better than Reese, even post 2011.

Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.

And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.

DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.


The names you listed as "solid starters" really discredits your claim here. Of the names you've listed, the only players I would consider to have been solid starters are obviously Collins and Odell, plus Hankins, Engram, Shepard. All the other guys you listed were below average to downright awful for the Giants, and most of them were/are out of the league after their Giants' tenure concluded. The fact that they were starters is a testament to just how badly constructed this team has been since 2012.
RE: So why did Reese fall off the mountain top ???  
Johnny5 : 9/16/2020 5:53 pm : link
In comment 14974712 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
Obviously poor drafting but why was the drafting so poor? Was it over reliance on Marc Ross? Something else? in the end the buck stops with the GM regardless. It will be interesting to see if Reese lands another NFL job.

I will emphasize this point. Something happened during Reese's tenure that led to very poor overall drafting after 2007. Is that Ross? Someone else left or joined? I don't know. That's why I said I don't totally blame Reese, but he was the GM and the buck stops there.

As for Gettleman? I actually really like his drafts so far. Up until this point it's some of his FA pickups that were (obviously) screwy. Although he did a good job with that this year. OBj was a good trade. The trade up to get Baker was questionable, but only really in hindsight. The jury is still out on Gettleman for me, but overall I think he has earned more time. The arrow has to point up this year though for sure.
RE: Let's get something..  
Jeffrey : 9/17/2020 8:38 am : link
In comment 14974763 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
straight here and it really shouldn't be debated. Nobody is "letting Reese off the hook". Neither the fans nor the team. The man was fired for Christ's sake. He paid with his job for the failed moves the last few years of his tenure

But that doesn't make him a terrible GM or even a bad GM.

Correct. And it doesn't make DG a good GM. DG is different in style and approach but so far the overall results have been horrible. I find making a comparison to be a meaningless task. Different times, different coaches and different draft positions.
FStubbs  
cosmicj : 9/17/2020 8:52 am : link
Really good posts. A grown up take on the Reese program.

Reese made numerous mistakes in the 2010s -and had a LOT of bad luck — but I honestly believe he’d still be our GM if he had hired a quality Personnel Director, not that incompetent Marc Ross.
RE: RE: .  
GManinDC : 9/17/2020 9:45 am : link
In comment 14974785 ShockNRoll said:
Quote:
In comment 14974519 Walnut said:


Quote:


DG absolutely has not been better than Reese, even post 2011.

Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.

And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.

DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.



The names you listed as "solid starters" really discredits your claim here. Of the names you've listed, the only players I would consider to have been solid starters are obviously Collins and Odell, plus Hankins, Engram, Shepard. All the other guys you listed were below average to downright awful for the Giants, and most of them were/are out of the league after their Giants' tenure concluded. The fact that they were starters is a testament to just how badly constructed this team has been since 2012.



Let's do this simple. Reese drafted about 4 All -Pro's during their career. JPP, Hankins, Linvel Joseph, OBJ. That's five off the top of my head. Let's not start with the FA pickups that helped us win 2011.

And after all that, you're gonna say Gettleman has been better. You have a bonafide in Barkley.

Before we start anointing best GM, how about the Giants win more than 5 games in a season?
RE: RE: RE: .  
ShockNRoll : 9/17/2020 10:05 am : link
In comment 14975212 GManinDC said:
Quote:
In comment 14974785 ShockNRoll said:


Quote:


In comment 14974519 Walnut said:


Quote:


DG absolutely has not been better than Reese, even post 2011.

Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.

And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.

DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.



The names you listed as "solid starters" really discredits your claim here. Of the names you've listed, the only players I would consider to have been solid starters are obviously Collins and Odell, plus Hankins, Engram, Shepard. All the other guys you listed were below average to downright awful for the Giants, and most of them were/are out of the league after their Giants' tenure concluded. The fact that they were starters is a testament to just how badly constructed this team has been since 2012.




Let's do this simple. Reese drafted about 4 All -Pro's during their career. JPP, Hankins, Linvel Joseph, OBJ. That's five off the top of my head. Let's not start with the FA pickups that helped us win 2011.

And after all that, you're gonna say Gettleman has been better. You have a bonafide in Barkley.

Before we start anointing best GM, how about the Giants win more than 5 games in a season?


Again, you have it in your head that I said Dave is better than Reese. At no point in here have I said that. All I did was state facts. Reese had a lot to do with 2011, in no way, AT ALL, did I deny that. I also said that many of the decisions he made were at the root of nearly a decade of absolutely terrible football. If you are pleased with the past 8 years of Giants football, please present your argument and I am willing to listen. I simply stated that I am in the minority here (I think) in that I like a lot of the moves Dave has made. Another poster also made a great point, that Jerry came in as GM of a team that was in the playoffs, with an ascending QB and one of the top coaches in the league. Dave took over with Ben McAdoo as coach, an aging QB, and a roster completely devoid of talent. McAdoo as the coach and the majority of the roster were put in place by Jerry Reese.

I never made a definitive statement about who is the better GM, I'm amazed you aren't able to see that, or you simply aren't reading my posts. Or you just don't care, which I wouldn't blame you for, because who am I (or any of us) to make any judgments?
RE: Post continued:  
Optimus-NY : 9/17/2020 10:30 am : link
In comment 14974663 FStubbs said:
Quote:
So ... though I'm not a fan of Gettleman's, I could defend his wretched tenure with the following:

1) Write off his first year. He needed that year to prove the quick fix would not work, no matter who was GM. Barkley may have been a wasted pick, but necessary for the overall direction of the franchise, knowing it needed a rebuild. Framing Barkley correctly, he like Beckham is part of the Eli era, not the Jones era.

2) The quick fix direction of the team since 2011 created a roster that not only was bereft of talent, but had no real philosophy whatsoever. It wasn't a house, it was a haphazard dump of broken bricks. It takes a lot longer to build on that lot than it does an empty lot.


Excellent post. Your take is spot on.
RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
GManinDC : 9/17/2020 10:33 am : link
In comment 14975228 ShockNRoll said:
Quote:
In comment 14975212 GManinDC said:


Quote:


In comment 14974785 ShockNRoll said:


Quote:


In comment 14974519 Walnut said:


Quote:


DG absolutely has not been better than Reese, even post 2011.

Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.

And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.

DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.



The names you listed as "solid starters" really discredits your claim here. Of the names you've listed, the only players I would consider to have been solid starters are obviously Collins and Odell, plus Hankins, Engram, Shepard. All the other guys you listed were below average to downright awful for the Giants, and most of them were/are out of the league after their Giants' tenure concluded. The fact that they were starters is a testament to just how badly constructed this team has been since 2012.




Let's do this simple. Reese drafted about 4 All -Pro's during their career. JPP, Hankins, Linvel Joseph, OBJ. That's five off the top of my head. Let's not start with the FA pickups that helped us win 2011.

And after all that, you're gonna say Gettleman has been better. You have a bonafide in Barkley.

Before we start anointing best GM, how about the Giants win more than 5 games in a season?



Again, you have it in your head that I said Dave is better than Reese. At no point in here have I said that. All I did was state facts. Reese had a lot to do with 2011, in no way, AT ALL, did I deny that. I also said that many of the decisions he made were at the root of nearly a decade of absolutely terrible football. If you are pleased with the past 8 years of Giants football, please present your argument and I am willing to listen. I simply stated that I am in the minority here (I think) in that I like a lot of the moves Dave has made. Another poster also made a great point, that Jerry came in as GM of a team that was in the playoffs, with an ascending QB and one of the top coaches in the league. Dave took over with Ben McAdoo as coach, an aging QB, and a roster completely devoid of talent. McAdoo as the coach and the majority of the roster were put in place by Jerry Reese.

I never made a definitive statement about who is the better GM, I'm amazed you aren't able to see that, or you simply aren't reading my posts. Or you just don't care, which I wouldn't blame you for, because who am I (or any of us) to make any judgments?




Shock, my apologies, I am confusing your post with another
RE: RE: RE: .  
Big Blue '56 : 9/17/2020 10:39 am : link
In comment 14975212 GManinDC said:
Quote:
In comment 14974785 ShockNRoll said:


Quote:


In comment 14974519 Walnut said:


Quote:


DG absolutely has not been better than Reese, even post 2011.

Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.

And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.

DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.



The names you listed as "solid starters" really discredits your claim here. Of the names you've listed, the only players I would consider to have been solid starters are obviously Collins and Odell, plus Hankins, Engram, Shepard. All the other guys you listed were below average to downright awful for the Giants, and most of them were/are out of the league after their Giants' tenure concluded. The fact that they were starters is a testament to just how badly constructed this team has been since 2012.




Let's do this simple. Reese drafted about 4 All -Pro's during their career. JPP, Hankins, Linvel Joseph, OBJ. That's five off the top of my head. Let's not start with the FA pickups that helped us win 2011.

And after all that, you're gonna say Gettleman has been better. You have a bonafide in Barkley.

Before we start anointing best GM, how about the Giants win more than 5 games in a season?


Is this a Black thing? 😜
I don't think its a slam dunk to say Gettleman has been better  
LBH15 : 9/17/2020 10:48 am : link
than Reese. And if he has by some small margin, it surely has not been good enough.

Another poster noted it above, too many fans quickly go to how well Gettleman has drafted (versus Reese). But when taking into context how many first rounders he has used and drafting so early in the first round, has DG really outperformed Reese by that much? Maybe but again somewhat marginal. Reese's crappy drafts in 2011-2013 put this team into a tailspin but its not like he didn't land a few really talented players too in other years. If Daniel Jones turns into a star that will probably be the differentiator.

Both guys show questionable judgment on positional awareness when it comes to building a team, and neither has shown any ability to construct or even stabilize an Offensive Line while as General Manager. And this doesn't go to effort as both have invested a lot, but the results have been bad if not awful.

Free Agency for both guys has also been subpar when taking into account if they really solved problems, filled holes or just took on bad contracts for avg/poor play. So really not a differentiator.

I do think Gettleman will leave the team for the next GM in better shape than Reese left it for him. But Reese can point to a few Super Bowls tophies under his watch that I cannot see Gettleman ever holding.
RE: RE: RE: .  
sb from NYT Forum : 9/17/2020 11:01 am : link
In comment 14975212 GManinDC said:
Quote:
In comment 14974785 ShockNRoll said:


Quote:


In comment 14974519 Walnut said:


Quote:


DG absolutely has not been better than Reese, even post 2011.

Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.

And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.

DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.



The names you listed as "solid starters" really discredits your claim here. Of the names you've listed, the only players I would consider to have been solid starters are obviously Collins and Odell, plus Hankins, Engram, Shepard. All the other guys you listed were below average to downright awful for the Giants, and most of them were/are out of the league after their Giants' tenure concluded. The fact that they were starters is a testament to just how badly constructed this team has been since 2012.




Let's do this simple. Reese drafted about 4 All -Pro's during their career. JPP, Hankins, Linvel Joseph, OBJ. That's five off the top of my head. Let's not start with the FA pickups that helped us win 2011.

And after all that, you're gonna say Gettleman has been better. You have a bonafide in Barkley.

Before we start anointing best GM, how about the Giants win more than 5 games in a season?


Not to be pedantic but the only All-Pro team Hankins ever made was a 2nd Team Pro-Football Focus All-Pro in 2014. That's about as far from a legit All-Pro as you can get, IMO.
Thanks for the correction  
GManinDC : 9/17/2020 11:30 am : link
It should be Collins and Cruz. Nicks was well on his way
It's already been pointed out, but worth stating again that Reese  
eclipz928 : 9/17/2020 12:40 pm : link
as GM has never drafted higher than the 9th pick - Gettleman has already done so three times. The expectation is that Gettleman SHOULD have better results as a GM at this point just by default. But until this team gets at least above a .500 record nobody should be proclaiming him better than the GM that has two Super Bowl rings.
RE: It's already been pointed out, but worth stating again that Reese  
ShockNRoll : 9/17/2020 1:33 pm : link
In comment 14975389 eclipz928 said:
Quote:
as GM has never drafted higher than the 9th pick - Gettleman has already done so three times. The expectation is that Gettleman SHOULD have better results as a GM at this point just by default. But until this team gets at least above a .500 record nobody should be proclaiming him better than the GM that has two Super Bowl rings.


That's a really good point, Gettleman has had 3 top 6 picks in his 3 years. Counterpoint to that is that Reese inherited a far better team than Gettleman did. Reese inherited a team that had a lot of pieces in place, while Gettleman inherited a team that was in shambles.

In thinking more deeply on this as I've gone through this thread, I've actually grown a BETTER appreciation for what both of these men have contributed to this organization. The Giants don't win in 07 or 11 without both of them, and while it's easy to blame GM's for bad teams, and while both of these men have made bad moves, they both spent over a decade serving this franchise and contributing significantly to winning two championships.
This is what actual discussion  
GManinDC : 9/17/2020 4:45 pm : link
with an open mind can do. When you see other points that you never gave it much analysis, your view and opinion can change.

My opinion on Eli has changed drastically after 2008. Mostly, from threads on here that give actual football thoughts and opinions and not over the top hyperbole.

Again, my apologies Shock..
RE: This is what actual discussion  
ShockNRoll : 9/17/2020 5:04 pm : link
In comment 14975541 GManinDC said:
Quote:
with an open mind can do. When you see other points that you never gave it much analysis, your view and opinion can change.

My opinion on Eli has changed drastically after 2008. Mostly, from threads on here that give actual football thoughts and opinions and not over the top hyperbole.

Again, my apologies Shock..


Ha! No need to apologize at all, we're all just a bunch of pissed off Giants fans who haven't seen anything resembling decent football in several years. It's just like when I'm watching a game with my dad and brother, when the Giants are winning we're best friends. When they're losing, we all turn on each other! I've found this thread to be a very good discussion as well.
That must great to to watch with family  
GManinDC : 9/17/2020 6:25 pm : link
Leads to interesting dinner table squabbles! lol
Yes he has in a number of ways, good enough remains to be seen.  
The Tempest : 4:47 pm : link
Lets face it the only way anyone will be satisfied is with our NY Giants winning another super bowl and with the talent we have; consecutive winning seasons. There is talent on this roster and it is everyone's hope that we have the right head coach now to unlock the potential of these players. Dave Gettleman has been good for this franchise. He cleared our salary cap. Is quick to admit his mistakes and rectify them. Revamped the scouting department and has changed the team approach to free agency.

I think Dave Gettleman is good enough to get this franchise moving in the right direction again.
The whole premise of this thread is fucking stupid  
adamg : 6:05 pm : link
Reese won two rings. One in his first year. Gettleman doesn't have a winning record and we aren't even competitive after three years.
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