Jerry Reese was so bad for many years and really left the Giants talent level roster wise so thin, that makes the work Dave Gettleman has done for the past 3 years look better than what it truly is.
Absolutely, no denying the Giants roster talent wise is better but the way Reese bottomed out on his way out, it would have been extremely hard for any new incoming GM to NOT improve over what Reese had done. This was never going to be a quick fix and would have taken any incoming GM several years to build a solid foundation.
Positives have been hitting on potentially a Hall of Fame talent like Barkley and finding a franchise QB in Jones. There are also many young talented prospects on both sides that can speed up this current rebuild.
Although the biggest negative in my mind was the quote from Gettleman in his introductory press conference. He stated his focus will be to rebuild the trenches and address both sides of the line. In three full offseasons as the GM he's made several investments with trades, free agents and spent high draft capital on both sides but the O-line and D-line still struggle. Three years of massive investments in the secondary and they still struggle.
Is this 2020 Giants Roster better than the roster Gettleman took over in 2018, yes....although is that good enough?
After 2-3 full off-seasons to address the trenches and rebuild the secondary, the product on the field has not changed much from the end of the 2017 season when Reese left.
After 2-3 full off-seasons to address the trenches and rebuild the secondary, the product on the field has not changed much from the end of the 2017 season when Reese left.
I hear you, but he has drafted really well in GENERAL. These kids need a chance to develop. They need reps and acclimation to new coaches
As for OL, they have completely revamped it. Thomas looks good. Solder was a bust, but he was the best FA out there and the Giants overpaid. He spent a 2nd on Hernandez, and made a trade for Zeitler. He invested premium resources in this draft in the OL in Peart, Lemieux, and Thomas.
As for DL, he has invested premium resources in Leonard Williams and Dexter Lawrence.
The DL has been good. The OL has not been good, but a lot of that also has to do with the fact that Engram can't block worth a shit, and Barkley has his struggles as well. If you have an OL going against a D like Pittsburgh, you need some help from other players.
The secondary has had 3 key pieces gone like that. They are doing what they can to cobble things together.
Gettleman is not long with the team due to his age, but he has given the Giants a solid foundation with a good bit of young talent with which to build upon. In reality, the rebuild should have been started earlier, but hindsight is 20/20. I would have done what Gettleman did and stuck with the two-time SB winning QB, and tried to make a last run at the playoffs. They tried that and failed, so they are doing a complete rebuild.
Gettleman has gotten them a promising young QB in Jones, a star RB in Barkley, a potential #1 WR in Slayton, and some good young OL pieces highlighted by a potential franchise LT in Thomas.
On D, he has gotten the Giants a young core of Williams, Tomlinson, and Lawrence on the DL, a good MLB in Martinez, and some good young secondary pieces in Bradberry, McKinney, Peppers, Holmes, etc.
Another draft and FA round, and the Giants should be able to fill a lot more of the holes. But this was just a total rebuild. While he hasn't been perfect, I am pleased with the talent Gettleman has acquired so far.
Bottom line is the most important things for a GM to have to be successful are coach and QB. I think he got the QB right. He failed miserably at his first shot at the coach, but I have a good feeling about his last (which it will be regardless of Judge's success).
Don’t believe this is true.I can’t understand how you can look at the trenches and secondary and not see improvements. Williams and Lawrence added to the DL. Thomas, Hernandez, Zeitler and even Fleming along with Peart and Lemieux in the wings aren’t an improvement? Bradbury, Peppers, Love, McKinney and Ryan aren’t an improvement?
Totally Disagree. 2007 you still have to give some credit to Accorsi. Our drafts mostly sucked after 2007 overall. Reese was really good at picking WRs, but that's really about the only credit he deserves from his time as a GM. Aside from the occasional hit (JPP, Joseph, Phillips) at other positions, he drafted terribly. Those few hits are not good enough across a full 11 years of drafting. Our roster has SUCKED since 2011 because of the Reese/Ross tenure.
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After 2-3 full off-seasons to address the trenches and rebuild the secondary, the product on the field has not changed much from the end of the 2017 season when Reese left.
Don’t believe this is true.I can’t understand how you can look at the trenches and secondary and not see improvements. Williams and Lawrence added to the DL. Thomas, Hernandez, Zeitler and even Fleming along with Peart and Lemieux in the wings aren’t an improvement? Bradbury, Peppers, Love, McKinney and Ryan aren’t an improvement?
Based on the lack of production last year, plus I know it's only one game this year but when our run defense gets mauled by the Steelers who have a back run for 100+ yards and our O-line not being able to block anyone.
Why the young talent on this roster is improved, I don't think you'll find anyone on this site who will disagree with you on that. Although after 3 full off-seasons under Gettleman, there really isn't much difference in productivity on the field that what the Giants showed at the end of 2017.
The hope is that 12 of 22 starters have 3 years or less experience in the NFL and all us Giants fans are hoping we'll see the improvements with more games and repetition.
Although after 3 full off-seasons, I thought we'd be further along then the play we currently see on the field.
Or just sheer stupidity..
I'm not expecting a contender this year, but if DG is going to be the answer going forward, I'm need to see this offense at least look like a top 10 unit with the upside for more by the end of the year. Let's see DG's handpicked OL and handpicked QB be a real matchup problem for opposing defenses. We've seen a lot of flashes from Jones, so it's impossible the offense really puts it together.
Pretty much any GM can put together a 3-6 win season after 3 years on the job and point to a few bright spots on the roster. I need to see a unit that's at least demonstrably better than the average NFL unit by the end of the year to want to continue forward with Gettleman.
Or just sheer stupidity..
Reese does deserve credit for his contributions to the Super Bowl teams. But he can not rest on '07 and '11 his whole career. He also deserves blame for the drafts and other moves that left the Giants where they were years after the Super Bowl.
I don't know why people have to have this either/or mentality
+1
My thoughts exactly.
i've never really hated his drafting. it's been the free agent signings (although i may have been wrong about martinez) and the trades that i've hated
Reading comprehension helps. My replies to both BB56 and your post stated that this wasn't based on just one game.
Yes he had some bad drafts. What team or GM has not had a miss on a 1st round pick?
That 2016 team ws not as baren as people make themn out to be. Maybe it's the way the season ended that makes people view of that team so bad. There weren't as many bad apples as one may think..
Jesus the Reese hate on here is epic
I like Gettleman. I like his folksy and sometimes sarcastic attitude. The one thing that is very hard after seven years or so of craptacular football is patience. Gettleman may have assembled a future core for this team going forward. However, right now it seems like there is nothing this team does really well. The game the other night was better than what we've seen lately from the team but I still found it tough watching. I think I will feel better when we can confidently say yeah X is a strength of the team. I know we say that the DL is a strength but sometimes it doesn't feel like it.
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Is remarkable. I guess those 2 SB's were so long ago that maybe people are forgetting.
Or just sheer stupidity..
Reese does deserve credit for his contributions to the Super Bowl teams. But he can not rest on '07 and '11 his whole career. He also deserves blame for the drafts and other moves that left the Giants where they were years after the Super Bowl.
I don't know why people have to have this either/or mentality
Reese inherited a Hall of Fame coach and QB, as well as one of the best offensive lines in the league, and a group of pass rushers that rival any group we've seen since. Yes, he contributed with drafting guys like Boss, Steve Smith, Manningham, Nicks, Bradshaw, Phillips, JPP, and Linval, as well as some good signings in Cruz as a UDFA, Rolle, Boley, Canty, Deon Grant. There were also countless misses, which would take me too long to list since I'm supposed to be working right now, that led to a complete devoid of talent on this roster for years. My point is, once the Accorsi era players were no longer on the roster, Reese never replaced them with starting NFL caliber players, and he truly set the franchise back several years. That is why I don't think it's fair to judge the job Gettleman has done just yet, even though 3 years in the NFL feels like an eternity.
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In comment 14974298 GManinDC said:
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Is remarkable. I guess those 2 SB's were so long ago that maybe people are forgetting.
Or just sheer stupidity..
Reese does deserve credit for his contributions to the Super Bowl teams. But he can not rest on '07 and '11 his whole career. He also deserves blame for the drafts and other moves that left the Giants where they were years after the Super Bowl.
I don't know why people have to have this either/or mentality
Reese inherited a Hall of Fame coach and QB, as well as one of the best offensive lines in the league, and a group of pass rushers that rival any group we've seen since. Yes, he contributed with drafting guys like Boss, Steve Smith, Manningham, Nicks, Bradshaw, Phillips, JPP, and Linval, as well as some good signings in Cruz as a UDFA, Rolle, Boley, Canty, Deon Grant. There were also countless misses, which would take me too long to list since I'm supposed to be working right now, that led to a complete devoid of talent on this roster for years. My point is, once the Accorsi era players were no longer on the roster, Reese never replaced them with starting NFL caliber players, and he truly set the franchise back several years. That is why I don't think it's fair to judge the job Gettleman has done just yet, even though 3 years in the NFL feels like an eternity.
Hey Shock. Who you think was in charge of Player Personnel during those years? You think Accorsi was scouting Osi and Tuck?
You just named almost the entire 2011 team that won a SB and then downplay it because of some draft misses. Incredible..
Or just sheer stupidity..
Jerry Reese was an amazing Director of player personnel and pro scout, whose contributions to the player acquisitions for those 2 SB runs was immense and key for those 2 runs.
The issue was when Jerry Reese got promoted to GM and Marc Ross took over. That combo mismanaged several drafts in the 2010's which eventually led to his firing and the lack of young talent to build around by the end of the 2017 season.
Yes he had some bad drafts. What team or GM has not had a miss on a 1st round pick?
That 2016 team ws not as baren as people make themn out to be. Maybe it's the way the season ended that makes people view of that team so bad. There weren't as many bad apples as one may think..
If you don't see our overall roster as being the reason why we are in the position we are in, I don't know what else to say.
I don't blame Reese solely for where we are now, but he was the one drafting mostly crap after 2007. Our biggest problems for years were lack of depth, plus poor OL and LB drafting. Aside from wide receiver and literally maybe 3 other hits he absolutely KILLED this roster. It's not even arguable at this point.
Reese takes a lot of shit here, and maybe it's me. But when i keep reading how they draft by committe, vote on who to draft, and how many peole have votes. It's hard for me to single out one guy.
I also beleive it was kind of hard to draft for the future when you have a QB in his prime and you want to win now.
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would be very happy with 2 SB wins.
Yes he had some bad drafts. What team or GM has not had a miss on a 1st round pick?
That 2016 team ws not as baren as people make themn out to be. Maybe it's the way the season ended that makes people view of that team so bad. There weren't as many bad apples as one may think..
If you don't see our overall roster as being the reason why we are in the position we are in, I don't know what else to say.
I don't blame Reese solely for where we are now, but he was the one drafting mostly crap after 2007. Our biggest problems for years were lack of depth, plus poor OL and LB drafting. Aside from wide receiver and literally maybe 3 other hits he absolutely KILLED this roster. It's not even arguable at this point.
I'll ask the same question again. When Gettleman took over the team, did he not say the roster was ready to compete?
I will wait until the bye week to assess DG's work. If Jones, Barkley, Slayton, Thomas, Gates, Hernandez, K. Smith etc., are lighting it up on offense or at least holding their own we can honestly say we have the foundation for a great offense.
DG has been "hit or miss" but I will give him credit for not being afraid to do what he thinks is right. This team's run defense will be SOLID as the season progresses and the DB's will improve as they are so young and in a new system.
I say this team starting 0 - 4 because we start against four good to very good teams from veteran coached systems. We had no pre-season of merit so I knew we'd struggle. However, I am not at this moment seeing the Bears game as unwinnable because the Bears offense shouldn't be too effective. The Bears defense is good and will give us trouble but in my mind they are a notch or two below Pittsburgh.
If the OL cleans up some mental errors and Barkley isn't caught behind the LOS as much, maybe we run the ball just enough to make Jones more effective.
We shall see but so far I like DG's work, outside of moving up for Baker. SMH
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You say you’re looking over a 2-3 year period, not just one game, but then the evidence for your position is one game. Which is it.
Reading comprehension helps. My replies to both BB56 and your post stated that this wasn't based on just one game.
And I quote “ s I know it's only one game this year but when our run defense gets mauled by the Steelers who have a back run for 100+ yards and our O-line not being able to block anyone.“. That’s it that’s what you really are basing this nonsense on. One game.
I will wait until the bye week to assess DG's work. If Jones, Barkley, Slayton, Thomas, Gates, Hernandez, K. Smith etc., are lighting it up on offense or at least holding their own we can honestly say we have the foundation for a great offense.
DG has been "hit or miss" but I will give him credit for not being afraid to do what he thinks is right. This team's run defense will be SOLID as the season progresses and the DB's will improve as they are so young and in a new system.
I say this team starting 0 - 4 because we start against four good to very good teams from veteran coached systems. We had no pre-season of merit so I knew we'd struggle. However, I am not at this moment seeing the Bears game as unwinnable because the Bears offense shouldn't be too effective. The Bears defense is good and will give us trouble but in my mind they are a notch or two below Pittsburgh.
If the OL cleans up some mental errors and Barkley isn't caught behind the LOS as much, maybe we run the ball just enough to make Jones more effective.
We shall see but so far I like DG's work, outside of moving up for Baker. SMH
I agree his drafts were bad after 2007 but he also had some bad breaks (Nicks for example). No doubt his hiring of Ross was a horrible decision. TC was a great coach but I wonder if his loyalty led him to keep some of the players a couple seasons past their expiration.
No more so than saying George Young was a trainwreck based only on his failure to adapt to FA.
Reese, through a combination of poor injury luck and players who didn't pan out, went several seasons with the draft not helping to add solid starters or depth. That's what did him in as well as never figuring out how to fix the OL.
Let's not act like he was terrible.
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In comment 14974319 GManinDC said:
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would be very happy with 2 SB wins.
Yes he had some bad drafts. What team or GM has not had a miss on a 1st round pick?
That 2016 team ws not as baren as people make themn out to be. Maybe it's the way the season ended that makes people view of that team so bad. There weren't as many bad apples as one may think..
If you don't see our overall roster as being the reason why we are in the position we are in, I don't know what else to say.
I don't blame Reese solely for where we are now, but he was the one drafting mostly crap after 2007. Our biggest problems for years were lack of depth, plus poor OL and LB drafting. Aside from wide receiver and literally maybe 3 other hits he absolutely KILLED this roster. It's not even arguable at this point.
I'll ask the same question again. When Gettleman took over the team, did he not say the roster was ready to compete?
3 possible answers:
1. DG actually believed this. In which case he was proved wrong when the team continued to struggle in 2018 with lackluster talent, which doesn't say much for either him or Reese.
2. Ownership believed the Giants just needed to "reload" and wanted DG to take that approach. In which case, bad on ownership.
3. DG wasn't going to kick Reese while he was down and crow about how bad the roster was.
In any case, I put far more store in what a GM actually does in the job rather than a soundbite over a departing GM.
Or just sheer stupidity..
Reese draft many very good NFL players whose careers were cut short -- this is squarely on TC 's terrible conditioning and training program where year after year Giants would lead the league in injuries .
as I have said before when a young gifted player suddenly has career ending injury the GM suddenly has to fill that hole - that is one less potential draft choice or free agency pick up to upgrade another part of the team.. if muiltple players have career ending injuries then the GM can never have enough talent on the team to compete .. This is what happen to Reese .
Reese added several players who contributed right away and were a big reason why we won the SB
- Aaron Ross
- Bradshaw
- Steve Smith
- Alford
- DeOssie
- Boss
- Kawika Mitchell
And all this time I thought it was because Eli purposely was throwing balls high to get them killed.
What a fucking moron
Not really, you would have to go back to the 70's to find a Giants team with a bigger talent void than the team DG inherited from JR.
Agree with this completely. Also, with respect to OP it seems a bit early to declare Barkley potentially Hall of Fame or Jones as a franchise QB. There are certainly reasons to hope for both, but still too early for those characterizations.
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In comment 14974310 KDavies said:
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In comment 14974298 GManinDC said:
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Is remarkable. I guess those 2 SB's were so long ago that maybe people are forgetting.
Or just sheer stupidity..
Reese does deserve credit for his contributions to the Super Bowl teams. But he can not rest on '07 and '11 his whole career. He also deserves blame for the drafts and other moves that left the Giants where they were years after the Super Bowl.
I don't know why people have to have this either/or mentality
Reese inherited a Hall of Fame coach and QB, as well as one of the best offensive lines in the league, and a group of pass rushers that rival any group we've seen since. Yes, he contributed with drafting guys like Boss, Steve Smith, Manningham, Nicks, Bradshaw, Phillips, JPP, and Linval, as well as some good signings in Cruz as a UDFA, Rolle, Boley, Canty, Deon Grant. There were also countless misses, which would take me too long to list since I'm supposed to be working right now, that led to a complete devoid of talent on this roster for years. My point is, once the Accorsi era players were no longer on the roster, Reese never replaced them with starting NFL caliber players, and he truly set the franchise back several years. That is why I don't think it's fair to judge the job Gettleman has done just yet, even though 3 years in the NFL feels like an eternity.
Hey Shock. Who you think was in charge of Player Personnel during those years? You think Accorsi was scouting Osi and Tuck?
You just named almost the entire 2011 team that won a SB and then downplay it because of some draft misses. Incredible..
I don't think I downplayed anything Reese contributed, even a little bit. I didn't sit there naming all the players he brought in to downplay his contributions to the franchise. I don't think I stated anything that is not a fact. Did Reese inherit a Hall of Fame coach and QB? Did he make some very good signings that contributed to championships? 100% yes to both of those questions. Conversely, has he made decisions since that have led to nearly a decade of completely embarrassing football? Yes, I believe he has. When you use the phrase "some missed draft picks", I feel that is extremely kind.
Regarding your comments about Reese as a director of player personnel, that is not what this discussion is about. Similarly, it is not about the fact that Gettleman was the director of pro personnel for Reese's entire tenure as a Giant up through 2011. This thread is a conversation about the two men as GM's of the New York Giants.
Reese inherited a very competitive team and added pieces in 2007 to win the championship. He couldn’t sustain it and 2011 was smoke and mirrors and a QB playing at his best. After 2011, it was all downhill.
Convenient how you cut out the first part of my comment to make your point. Here's what I said...
Here's also what I said to BB56...
Good try though, my comments about your reading comprehension still stands.
the reason for injuries was the conditioning program!!
And all this time I thought it was because Eli purposely was throwing balls high to get them killed
Seriously you don't remember Jerry Palmieri Coughlin's Strength and Conditioning Coach who was so bad that players literally left the Giants because of him
wow how could someone be on BBI so long and yet be so stupid ALL THE TIME ..?? it is an impressive achievement. KUDOS to YOU
Walter Thurmond: Tom Coughlin 'doesn't believe in the modern medicine' - ( New Window )
But it was all Palmeri - who players left because of!!!!
Umm okayyyyy
Or just sheer stupidity..
Yup
Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.
And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.
DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.
Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.
And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.
DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.
I don't see how anyone can say with a straight face that Ruben Randall, Bernard Hosley, Markus Kuhn, Damonte Moore, Eli Apple, Paul Perkins and Bobby Hart were "solid starters."
I'd argue that Engram also is not a "solid" starter, being that he has bad hands, can't block and can't stay on the field.
I'll give you Prince. And David Wilson had one good game, but he was a fumbler just like he was in college. Which in my opinion is definitely not "solid."
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DG absolutely has not been better than Reese, even post 2011.
Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.
And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.
DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.
I don't see how anyone can say with a straight face that Ruben Randall, Bernard Hosley, Markus Kuhn, Damonte Moore, Eli Apple, Paul Perkins and Bobby Hart were "solid starters."
I'd argue that Engram also is not a "solid" starter, being that he has bad hands, can't block and can't stay on the field.
I'll give you Prince. And David Wilson had one good game, but he was a fumbler just like he was in college. Which in my opinion is definitely not "solid."
And apart from one season (that happened 4 years ago now), calling Collins a "superstar" is quite a stretch.
This! DG has been slightly better than Reese's worst years. That's about the bar that's been set by this organization the last decade, and unfortunately, the fans who defend him. DG is a below average GM.
Or just sheer stupidity..
Didn't you know? If it weren't for Reese Eli would have 6-7 rings.
[quote] he has had McKinney get injured and Baker have his issues, so there goes two high picks there. A third in Beal opted out. What is Gettleman going to do about any of them?
As for OL, they have completely revamped it. Thomas looks good. Solder was a bust, but he was the best FA out there and the Giants overpaid. He spent a 2nd on Hernandez, and made a trade for Zeitler. He invested premium resources in this draft in the OL in Peart, Lemieux, and Thomas.
As for DL, he has invested premium resources in Leonard Williams and Dexter Lawrence.
The DL has been good. The OL has not been good, but a lot of that also has to do with the fact that Engram can't block worth a shit, and Barkley has his struggles as well. If you have an OL going against a D like Pittsburgh, you need some help from other players.
The secondary has had 3 key pieces gone like that. They are doing what they can to cobble things together.
Gettleman is not long with the team due to his age, but he has given the Giants a solid foundation with a good bit of young talent with which to build upon. In reality, the rebuild should have been started earlier, but hindsight is 20/20. I would have done what Gettleman did and stuck with the two-time SB winning QB, and tried to make a last run at the playoffs. They tried that and failed,
That was his big mistake. How did he so badly evaluate that roster and what Eli has left.
2nd round Corey Webster
3rd round Justin Tuck
4th round Brandon Jacobs
6th round Eric Moore
That is how you draft most of them were big parts of 2 super bowls. Bring back Ernie
2nd round Corey Webster
3rd round Justin Tuck
4th round Brandon Jacobs
6th round Eric Moore
That is how you draft most of them were big parts of 2 super bowls. Bring back Ernie
Erine's drafts stunk up until oddly enough, he put Reese in charge of Player Personnel.
Guess who took over that role after 2011? Chris Mara.
Reese did spend 2 first rounders and a 2nd rounder on offensive linemen in different years, so he did address the offensive line (and failed), but it was never the overhaul it needed. Always the quick fix.
The massive injuries to young players hurt the Giants. But once again, the Giants went for the quick fix. Nicks had a career ending injury? Okay, let's draft Beckham.
When Coughlin retired, instead of getting a new coach, they promoted McAdoo for "continuity", because this team was always one Eli run from a ring.
The ultimately ill-fated 2016 spending spree? A bunch of quick fixes because Reese had cap room that year.
Like I said, this thinking extended even after Reese was fired. I think a huge reason Gettleman drafted Barkley was because he was part of yet another 'quick fix' so Eli could try to make a miracle run. He hired Shurmur because the team didn't need a rebuild, just an "adult in the room" who would get out of Eli's way as he tried to make another run. The rebuild didn't start until midway through that year when DG started trading guys like Snacks.
1) Write off his first year. He needed that year to prove the quick fix would not work, no matter who was GM. Barkley may have been a wasted pick, but necessary for the overall direction of the franchise, knowing it needed a rebuild. Framing Barkley correctly, he like Beckham is part of the Eli era, not the Jones era.
2) The quick fix direction of the team since 2011 created a roster that not only was bereft of talent, but had no real philosophy whatsoever. It wasn't a house, it was a haphazard dump of broken bricks. It takes a lot longer to build on that lot than it does an empty lot.
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Is remarkable. I guess those 2 SB's were so long ago that maybe people are forgetting.
Or just sheer stupidity..
Didn't you know? If it weren't for Reese Eli would have 6-7 rings.
This. I really think people believe that..
No more so than saying George Young was a trainwreck based only on his failure to adapt to FA.
Reese, through a combination of poor injury luck and players who didn't pan out, went several seasons with the draft not helping to add solid starters or depth. That's what did him in as well as never figuring out how to fix the OL.
Let's not act like he was terrible.
People seem to coneveniently leave out injuries and just bad luck. I give up. It ain't even worth it anymore.
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was not a trainwreck and he had an integral part in 2 SB's.
No more so than saying George Young was a trainwreck based only on his failure to adapt to FA.
Reese, through a combination of poor injury luck and players who didn't pan out, went several seasons with the draft not helping to add solid starters or depth. That's what did him in as well as never figuring out how to fix the OL.
Let's not act like he was terrible.
People seem to coneveniently leave out injuries and just bad luck. I give up. It ain't even worth it anymore.
It's true. There were injuries and bad luck. But I'm not going to let Reese off the hook for the quick fix era I outlined above. (Unless we know for sure a lot of that was coming from the Maras).
Reese was a great GM in the first half of his tenure and a garbage one the 2nd half. That's what it is. Overall, I'm glad we had a GM that got us 2 rings. Most of the teams in the league would instantly sign up if you promised them the Reese era.
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In comment 14974404 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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was not a trainwreck and he had an integral part in 2 SB's.
No more so than saying George Young was a trainwreck based only on his failure to adapt to FA.
Reese, through a combination of poor injury luck and players who didn't pan out, went several seasons with the draft not helping to add solid starters or depth. That's what did him in as well as never figuring out how to fix the OL.
Let's not act like he was terrible.
People seem to coneveniently leave out injuries and just bad luck. I give up. It ain't even worth it anymore.
It's true. There were injuries and bad luck. But I'm not going to let Reese off the hook for the quick fix era I outlined above. (Unless we know for sure a lot of that was coming from the Maras).
Reese was a great GM in the first half of his tenure and a garbage one the 2nd half. That's what it is. Overall, I'm glad we had a GM that got us 2 rings. Most of the teams in the league would instantly sign up if you promised them the Reese era.
Like the Browns or the Lions?
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In comment 14974673 GManinDC said:
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In comment 14974404 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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was not a trainwreck and he had an integral part in 2 SB's.
No more so than saying George Young was a trainwreck based only on his failure to adapt to FA.
Reese, through a combination of poor injury luck and players who didn't pan out, went several seasons with the draft not helping to add solid starters or depth. That's what did him in as well as never figuring out how to fix the OL.
Let's not act like he was terrible.
People seem to coneveniently leave out injuries and just bad luck. I give up. It ain't even worth it anymore.
It's true. There were injuries and bad luck. But I'm not going to let Reese off the hook for the quick fix era I outlined above. (Unless we know for sure a lot of that was coming from the Maras).
Reese was a great GM in the first half of his tenure and a garbage one the 2nd half. That's what it is. Overall, I'm glad we had a GM that got us 2 rings. Most of the teams in the league would instantly sign up if you promised them the Reese era.
Like the Browns or the Lions?
You're being ridiculous. Let me use the Titans because they've been mostly mediocre forever.
You walk into Titans central and say "you have two options. Option 1 - go the direction you're going now. Who knows where that takes you. Option 2 - you get all of the Reese years." You're telling me they wouldn't want 2 rings?
This is the NFL. If I guaranteed a team a ring in exchange for their next 10 first rounders they'd do it. That's how hard it is to get a ring. Ask Dan Marino and countless others.
Even if we’re just talking about drafting, I think it’s too soon to say if Getty is as good as JR. Getty supporters tend to point to the draft and say things like, “he drafted a HoF running back and a franchise QB”. Well, I think it’s wildly premature to be sending Barks to Canton and I don’t think we should name DJ8 as the starter for the next decade. Yet. Maybe that’s me being conservative or maybe that’s me wanting to see the results on the field or both and more. But the point stands, Getty supporters tend to look at his drafts, they tend to think these drafts have been home runs because of Barks and Jonesand they tend to think JRs drafts were terrible he inherited a great team and QB and then, I guess, kept just sitting around throwing darts at the Giants draft board while everyone else was busy winning Super Bowls. And to be sure, JR had some misses and the end of his run with the Giants sucked. But, he won two Supes as the GM and might have won a third if Plax was wearing jeans instead of sweatpants.
Anyway, if we put aside Getty’s drafts as too soon to tell, there’s his UFA and trades and picking the HC (or signing off on Mara’s pick for HC). Here I think it’s a bit uneven. He signed OBJ (what was really the option here) and then then when OBJ and Lil Wayne took a shit on the franchise Getty made a good trade. A push at worst. Shurmur was a miss but Judge might be a bullseye. Too soon to tell. The LW trade made zero sense and remains, in my opinion, the most troubling aspect of Getty’s time as GM. Just made no sense and yes, I read all the augments and I like LW as a player and yada, yada. So, it’s too soon to tell about Getty now but probably will not be by the end of this season. It Barks can be a great player on the field, if DJ8 can protect the ball and if AT can protect DJ8 and the Judge can bring it all together with some wins, then I think Getty’s legacy will be as a winner.
Bottom line though? The Giants suck. When they don’t suck, when they start winning games and especially when they start winning Super Bowls, then we can all agree that the GM is a good GM.
is it possible that after about 30 years of football, a person wants to retire?
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In comment 14974676 FStubbs said:
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In comment 14974673 GManinDC said:
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In comment 14974404 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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was not a trainwreck and he had an integral part in 2 SB's.
No more so than saying George Young was a trainwreck based only on his failure to adapt to FA.
Reese, through a combination of poor injury luck and players who didn't pan out, went several seasons with the draft not helping to add solid starters or depth. That's what did him in as well as never figuring out how to fix the OL.
Let's not act like he was terrible.
People seem to coneveniently leave out injuries and just bad luck. I give up. It ain't even worth it anymore.
It's true. There were injuries and bad luck. But I'm not going to let Reese off the hook for the quick fix era I outlined above. (Unless we know for sure a lot of that was coming from the Maras).
Reese was a great GM in the first half of his tenure and a garbage one the 2nd half. That's what it is. Overall, I'm glad we had a GM that got us 2 rings. Most of the teams in the league would instantly sign up if you promised them the Reese era.
Like the Browns or the Lions?
You're being ridiculous. Let me use the Titans because they've been mostly mediocre forever.
You walk into Titans central and say "you have two options. Option 1 - go the direction you're going now. Who knows where that takes you. Option 2 - you get all of the Reese years." You're telling me they wouldn't want 2 rings?
This is the NFL. If I guaranteed a team a ring in exchange for their next 10 first rounders they'd do it. That's how hard it is to get a ring. Ask Dan Marino and countless others.
It's honestly harder than it used to be, what with free agency and all.
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In comment 14974678 Angel Eyes said:
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In comment 14974676 FStubbs said:
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In comment 14974673 GManinDC said:
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In comment 14974404 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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was not a trainwreck and he had an integral part in 2 SB's.
No more so than saying George Young was a trainwreck based only on his failure to adapt to FA.
Reese, through a combination of poor injury luck and players who didn't pan out, went several seasons with the draft not helping to add solid starters or depth. That's what did him in as well as never figuring out how to fix the OL.
Let's not act like he was terrible.
People seem to coneveniently leave out injuries and just bad luck. I give up. It ain't even worth it anymore.
It's true. There were injuries and bad luck. But I'm not going to let Reese off the hook for the quick fix era I outlined above. (Unless we know for sure a lot of that was coming from the Maras).
Reese was a great GM in the first half of his tenure and a garbage one the 2nd half. That's what it is. Overall, I'm glad we had a GM that got us 2 rings. Most of the teams in the league would instantly sign up if you promised them the Reese era.
Like the Browns or the Lions?
You're being ridiculous. Let me use the Titans because they've been mostly mediocre forever.
You walk into Titans central and say "you have two options. Option 1 - go the direction you're going now. Who knows where that takes you. Option 2 - you get all of the Reese years." You're telling me they wouldn't want 2 rings?
This is the NFL. If I guaranteed a team a ring in exchange for their next 10 first rounders they'd do it. That's how hard it is to get a ring. Ask Dan Marino and countless others.
It's honestly harder than it used to be, what with free agency and all.
It was always hard. While the Giants won 4 Superbowls in the previous 4 decades, how many did the Falcons win? Kansas City finally got their first in 50 years?
There are 32 teams in the league. If you win more than once in 32 years you're playing with house money.
But that doesn't make him a terrible GM or even a bad GM.
Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.
And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.
DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.
The names you listed as "solid starters" really discredits your claim here. Of the names you've listed, the only players I would consider to have been solid starters are obviously Collins and Odell, plus Hankins, Engram, Shepard. All the other guys you listed were below average to downright awful for the Giants, and most of them were/are out of the league after their Giants' tenure concluded. The fact that they were starters is a testament to just how badly constructed this team has been since 2012.
I will emphasize this point. Something happened during Reese's tenure that led to very poor overall drafting after 2007. Is that Ross? Someone else left or joined? I don't know. That's why I said I don't totally blame Reese, but he was the GM and the buck stops there.
As for Gettleman? I actually really like his drafts so far. Up until this point it's some of his FA pickups that were (obviously) screwy. Although he did a good job with that this year. OBj was a good trade. The trade up to get Baker was questionable, but only really in hindsight. The jury is still out on Gettleman for me, but overall I think he has earned more time. The arrow has to point up this year though for sure.
But that doesn't make him a terrible GM or even a bad GM.
Correct. And it doesn't make DG a good GM. DG is different in style and approach but so far the overall results have been horrible. I find making a comparison to be a meaningless task. Different times, different coaches and different draft positions.
Reese made numerous mistakes in the 2010s -and had a LOT of bad luck — but I honestly believe he’d still be our GM if he had hired a quality Personnel Director, not that incompetent Marc Ross.
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DG absolutely has not been better than Reese, even post 2011.
Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.
And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.
DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.
The names you listed as "solid starters" really discredits your claim here. Of the names you've listed, the only players I would consider to have been solid starters are obviously Collins and Odell, plus Hankins, Engram, Shepard. All the other guys you listed were below average to downright awful for the Giants, and most of them were/are out of the league after their Giants' tenure concluded. The fact that they were starters is a testament to just how badly constructed this team has been since 2012.
Let's do this simple. Reese drafted about 4 All -Pro's during their career. JPP, Hankins, Linvel Joseph, OBJ. That's five off the top of my head. Let's not start with the FA pickups that helped us win 2011.
And after all that, you're gonna say Gettleman has been better. You have a bonafide in Barkley.
Before we start anointing best GM, how about the Giants win more than 5 games in a season?
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In comment 14974519 Walnut said:
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DG absolutely has not been better than Reese, even post 2011.
Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.
And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.
DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.
The names you listed as "solid starters" really discredits your claim here. Of the names you've listed, the only players I would consider to have been solid starters are obviously Collins and Odell, plus Hankins, Engram, Shepard. All the other guys you listed were below average to downright awful for the Giants, and most of them were/are out of the league after their Giants' tenure concluded. The fact that they were starters is a testament to just how badly constructed this team has been since 2012.
Let's do this simple. Reese drafted about 4 All -Pro's during their career. JPP, Hankins, Linvel Joseph, OBJ. That's five off the top of my head. Let's not start with the FA pickups that helped us win 2011.
And after all that, you're gonna say Gettleman has been better. You have a bonafide in Barkley.
Before we start anointing best GM, how about the Giants win more than 5 games in a season?
Again, you have it in your head that I said Dave is better than Reese. At no point in here have I said that. All I did was state facts. Reese had a lot to do with 2011, in no way, AT ALL, did I deny that. I also said that many of the decisions he made were at the root of nearly a decade of absolutely terrible football. If you are pleased with the past 8 years of Giants football, please present your argument and I am willing to listen. I simply stated that I am in the minority here (I think) in that I like a lot of the moves Dave has made. Another poster also made a great point, that Jerry came in as GM of a team that was in the playoffs, with an ascending QB and one of the top coaches in the league. Dave took over with Ben McAdoo as coach, an aging QB, and a roster completely devoid of talent. McAdoo as the coach and the majority of the roster were put in place by Jerry Reese.
I never made a definitive statement about who is the better GM, I'm amazed you aren't able to see that, or you simply aren't reading my posts. Or you just don't care, which I wouldn't blame you for, because who am I (or any of us) to make any judgments?
1) Write off his first year. He needed that year to prove the quick fix would not work, no matter who was GM. Barkley may have been a wasted pick, but necessary for the overall direction of the franchise, knowing it needed a rebuild. Framing Barkley correctly, he like Beckham is part of the Eli era, not the Jones era.
2) The quick fix direction of the team since 2011 created a roster that not only was bereft of talent, but had no real philosophy whatsoever. It wasn't a house, it was a haphazard dump of broken bricks. It takes a lot longer to build on that lot than it does an empty lot.
Excellent post. Your take is spot on.
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In comment 14974785 ShockNRoll said:
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In comment 14974519 Walnut said:
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DG absolutely has not been better than Reese, even post 2011.
Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.
And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.
DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.
The names you listed as "solid starters" really discredits your claim here. Of the names you've listed, the only players I would consider to have been solid starters are obviously Collins and Odell, plus Hankins, Engram, Shepard. All the other guys you listed were below average to downright awful for the Giants, and most of them were/are out of the league after their Giants' tenure concluded. The fact that they were starters is a testament to just how badly constructed this team has been since 2012.
Let's do this simple. Reese drafted about 4 All -Pro's during their career. JPP, Hankins, Linvel Joseph, OBJ. That's five off the top of my head. Let's not start with the FA pickups that helped us win 2011.
And after all that, you're gonna say Gettleman has been better. You have a bonafide in Barkley.
Before we start anointing best GM, how about the Giants win more than 5 games in a season?
Again, you have it in your head that I said Dave is better than Reese. At no point in here have I said that. All I did was state facts. Reese had a lot to do with 2011, in no way, AT ALL, did I deny that. I also said that many of the decisions he made were at the root of nearly a decade of absolutely terrible football. If you are pleased with the past 8 years of Giants football, please present your argument and I am willing to listen. I simply stated that I am in the minority here (I think) in that I like a lot of the moves Dave has made. Another poster also made a great point, that Jerry came in as GM of a team that was in the playoffs, with an ascending QB and one of the top coaches in the league. Dave took over with Ben McAdoo as coach, an aging QB, and a roster completely devoid of talent. McAdoo as the coach and the majority of the roster were put in place by Jerry Reese.
I never made a definitive statement about who is the better GM, I'm amazed you aren't able to see that, or you simply aren't reading my posts. Or you just don't care, which I wouldn't blame you for, because who am I (or any of us) to make any judgments?
Shock, my apologies, I am confusing your post with another
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In comment 14974519 Walnut said:
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DG absolutely has not been better than Reese, even post 2011.
Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.
And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.
DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.
The names you listed as "solid starters" really discredits your claim here. Of the names you've listed, the only players I would consider to have been solid starters are obviously Collins and Odell, plus Hankins, Engram, Shepard. All the other guys you listed were below average to downright awful for the Giants, and most of them were/are out of the league after their Giants' tenure concluded. The fact that they were starters is a testament to just how badly constructed this team has been since 2012.
Let's do this simple. Reese drafted about 4 All -Pro's during their career. JPP, Hankins, Linvel Joseph, OBJ. That's five off the top of my head. Let's not start with the FA pickups that helped us win 2011.
And after all that, you're gonna say Gettleman has been better. You have a bonafide in Barkley.
Before we start anointing best GM, how about the Giants win more than 5 games in a season?
Is this a Black thing? 😜
Another poster noted it above, too many fans quickly go to how well Gettleman has drafted (versus Reese). But when taking into context how many first rounders he has used and drafting so early in the first round, has DG really outperformed Reese by that much? Maybe but again somewhat marginal. Reese's crappy drafts in 2011-2013 put this team into a tailspin but its not like he didn't land a few really talented players too in other years. If Daniel Jones turns into a star that will probably be the differentiator.
Both guys show questionable judgment on positional awareness when it comes to building a team, and neither has shown any ability to construct or even stabilize an Offensive Line while as General Manager. And this doesn't go to effort as both have invested a lot, but the results have been bad if not awful.
Free Agency for both guys has also been subpar when taking into account if they really solved problems, filled holes or just took on bad contracts for avg/poor play. So really not a differentiator.
I do think Gettleman will leave the team for the next GM in better shape than Reese left it for him. But Reese can point to a few Super Bowls tophies under his watch that I cannot see Gettleman ever holding.
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In comment 14974519 Walnut said:
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DG absolutely has not been better than Reese, even post 2011.
Reese drafted several solid starters - Prince, David Wilson, Ruban Randall, Hosley, Marks Kuhn, Pigh, Hankins, Moore, Engram, Sheppard, Apple, Perkins, Gallman, Bobby Hart, Kennard etc. Yes, a lot of them didn't become stars, but they were all solid starters, which is all you can hope for from a drafr.
And a couple of superstars in Landon Collins and OBJ.
DG's drafts have been very unspectacular. SB was a no-brainer pick at that position. Baker is in jail, etc.
The names you listed as "solid starters" really discredits your claim here. Of the names you've listed, the only players I would consider to have been solid starters are obviously Collins and Odell, plus Hankins, Engram, Shepard. All the other guys you listed were below average to downright awful for the Giants, and most of them were/are out of the league after their Giants' tenure concluded. The fact that they were starters is a testament to just how badly constructed this team has been since 2012.
Let's do this simple. Reese drafted about 4 All -Pro's during their career. JPP, Hankins, Linvel Joseph, OBJ. That's five off the top of my head. Let's not start with the FA pickups that helped us win 2011.
And after all that, you're gonna say Gettleman has been better. You have a bonafide in Barkley.
Before we start anointing best GM, how about the Giants win more than 5 games in a season?
Not to be pedantic but the only All-Pro team Hankins ever made was a 2nd Team Pro-Football Focus All-Pro in 2014. That's about as far from a legit All-Pro as you can get, IMO.
That's a really good point, Gettleman has had 3 top 6 picks in his 3 years. Counterpoint to that is that Reese inherited a far better team than Gettleman did. Reese inherited a team that had a lot of pieces in place, while Gettleman inherited a team that was in shambles.
In thinking more deeply on this as I've gone through this thread, I've actually grown a BETTER appreciation for what both of these men have contributed to this organization. The Giants don't win in 07 or 11 without both of them, and while it's easy to blame GM's for bad teams, and while both of these men have made bad moves, they both spent over a decade serving this franchise and contributing significantly to winning two championships.
My opinion on Eli has changed drastically after 2008. Mostly, from threads on here that give actual football thoughts and opinions and not over the top hyperbole.
Again, my apologies Shock..
My opinion on Eli has changed drastically after 2008. Mostly, from threads on here that give actual football thoughts and opinions and not over the top hyperbole.
Again, my apologies Shock..
Ha! No need to apologize at all, we're all just a bunch of pissed off Giants fans who haven't seen anything resembling decent football in several years. It's just like when I'm watching a game with my dad and brother, when the Giants are winning we're best friends. When they're losing, we all turn on each other! I've found this thread to be a very good discussion as well.
I think Dave Gettleman is good enough to get this franchise moving in the right direction again.
Did Gettleman believe he could win with Eli in either 2018 or 2019, given the condition the team was in, and the available coaching pool? If so, he was wrong. If not, he was a coward. Either way, he’s accountable for the results.
Has he been better than Reese? I don’t know how to compare. They walked into completely different situations.
I also don't understand the Shurmur hiring being on gettleman. That is an ownership decision more than a GM. Yes, gettleman would give his opinion, but ultimately I don't think he is directly responsible for that hire.
You want to talk about his free agent acquisitions or draft picks, then so be it, but I put Shurmur more on John mara than gettleman.
Did Gettleman believe he could win with Eli in either 2018 or 2019, given the condition the team was in, and the available coaching pool? If so, he was wrong. If not, he was a coward. Either way, he’s accountable for the results.
Has he been better than Reese? I don’t know how to compare. They walked into completely different situations.
Gettleman absolutely felt he could win with Eli in 2018. He made his own assessment, determined it was yes with Eli, and then started making moves accordingly. It just happened to be what the owners wanted to hear versus them forcing the subject.
By 2019 the bloom was off the rose and I think DG was struggling with the decision to release Eli. He probably knows it the right decision and he is going to pick a QB no matter what, but struggling to cut bait without knowing for certain would he get his guy and would he be ready day 1. He has some kind of heart to heart with Eli, and is convinced enough to keep the veteran on and let them compete, but with warning to coach to keep short leash if change is needed.
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i don't see how the Barkley pick is even debatable now. last week showed that we could get the same rushing results with any of 50 other RBs and Barkley is a net negative in pass blocking. even if Barkley goes on to have a HoF career drafting him at #2 overall set us back - we'd have been better off investing in the trenches or elsewhere on the defense. and passing on Barkley doesn't mean taking Darnold.
I am optimistic though that bringing Judge on board will improve not just our coaching but also personnel acquisition. We'll see.
If you consider "retooling" to mean that even last year we were left with less than 10 players from the previous regime, I don't really think you understand the word very well