Jerry Reese was so bad for many years and really left the Giants talent level roster wise so thin, that makes the work Dave Gettleman has done for the past 3 years look better than what it truly is.
Absolutely, no denying the Giants roster talent wise is better but the way Reese bottomed out on his way out, it would have been extremely hard for any new incoming GM to NOT improve over what Reese had done. This was never going to be a quick fix and would have taken any incoming GM several years to build a solid foundation.
Positives have been hitting on potentially a Hall of Fame talent like Barkley and finding a franchise QB in Jones. There are also many young talented prospects on both sides that can speed up this current rebuild.
Although the biggest negative in my mind was the quote from Gettleman in his introductory press conference. He stated his focus will be to rebuild the trenches and address both sides of the line. In three full offseasons as the GM he's made several investments with trades, free agents and spent high draft capital on both sides but the O-line and D-line still struggle. Three years of massive investments in the secondary and they still struggle.
Is this 2020 Giants Roster better than the roster Gettleman took over in 2018, yes....although is that good enough?
After 2-3 full off-seasons to address the trenches and rebuild the secondary, the product on the field has not changed much from the end of the 2017 season when Reese left.
After 2-3 full off-seasons to address the trenches and rebuild the secondary, the product on the field has not changed much from the end of the 2017 season when Reese left.
I hear you, but he has drafted really well in GENERAL. These kids need a chance to develop. They need reps and acclimation to new coaches
As for OL, they have completely revamped it. Thomas looks good. Solder was a bust, but he was the best FA out there and the Giants overpaid. He spent a 2nd on Hernandez, and made a trade for Zeitler. He invested premium resources in this draft in the OL in Peart, Lemieux, and Thomas.
As for DL, he has invested premium resources in Leonard Williams and Dexter Lawrence.
The DL has been good. The OL has not been good, but a lot of that also has to do with the fact that Engram can't block worth a shit, and Barkley has his struggles as well. If you have an OL going against a D like Pittsburgh, you need some help from other players.
The secondary has had 3 key pieces gone like that. They are doing what they can to cobble things together.
Gettleman is not long with the team due to his age, but he has given the Giants a solid foundation with a good bit of young talent with which to build upon. In reality, the rebuild should have been started earlier, but hindsight is 20/20. I would have done what Gettleman did and stuck with the two-time SB winning QB, and tried to make a last run at the playoffs. They tried that and failed, so they are doing a complete rebuild.
Gettleman has gotten them a promising young QB in Jones, a star RB in Barkley, a potential #1 WR in Slayton, and some good young OL pieces highlighted by a potential franchise LT in Thomas.
On D, he has gotten the Giants a young core of Williams, Tomlinson, and Lawrence on the DL, a good MLB in Martinez, and some good young secondary pieces in Bradberry, McKinney, Peppers, Holmes, etc.
Another draft and FA round, and the Giants should be able to fill a lot more of the holes. But this was just a total rebuild. While he hasn't been perfect, I am pleased with the talent Gettleman has acquired so far.
Bottom line is the most important things for a GM to have to be successful are coach and QB. I think he got the QB right. He failed miserably at his first shot at the coach, but I have a good feeling about his last (which it will be regardless of Judge's success).
Don’t believe this is true.I can’t understand how you can look at the trenches and secondary and not see improvements. Williams and Lawrence added to the DL. Thomas, Hernandez, Zeitler and even Fleming along with Peart and Lemieux in the wings aren’t an improvement? Bradbury, Peppers, Love, McKinney and Ryan aren’t an improvement?
Totally Disagree. 2007 you still have to give some credit to Accorsi. Our drafts mostly sucked after 2007 overall. Reese was really good at picking WRs, but that's really about the only credit he deserves from his time as a GM. Aside from the occasional hit (JPP, Joseph, Phillips) at other positions, he drafted terribly. Those few hits are not good enough across a full 11 years of drafting. Our roster has SUCKED since 2011 because of the Reese/Ross tenure.
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After 2-3 full off-seasons to address the trenches and rebuild the secondary, the product on the field has not changed much from the end of the 2017 season when Reese left.
Don’t believe this is true.I can’t understand how you can look at the trenches and secondary and not see improvements. Williams and Lawrence added to the DL. Thomas, Hernandez, Zeitler and even Fleming along with Peart and Lemieux in the wings aren’t an improvement? Bradbury, Peppers, Love, McKinney and Ryan aren’t an improvement?
Based on the lack of production last year, plus I know it's only one game this year but when our run defense gets mauled by the Steelers who have a back run for 100+ yards and our O-line not being able to block anyone.
Why the young talent on this roster is improved, I don't think you'll find anyone on this site who will disagree with you on that. Although after 3 full off-seasons under Gettleman, there really isn't much difference in productivity on the field that what the Giants showed at the end of 2017.
The hope is that 12 of 22 starters have 3 years or less experience in the NFL and all us Giants fans are hoping we'll see the improvements with more games and repetition.
Although after 3 full off-seasons, I thought we'd be further along then the play we currently see on the field.
Or just sheer stupidity..
I'm not expecting a contender this year, but if DG is going to be the answer going forward, I'm need to see this offense at least look like a top 10 unit with the upside for more by the end of the year. Let's see DG's handpicked OL and handpicked QB be a real matchup problem for opposing defenses. We've seen a lot of flashes from Jones, so it's impossible the offense really puts it together.
Pretty much any GM can put together a 3-6 win season after 3 years on the job and point to a few bright spots on the roster. I need to see a unit that's at least demonstrably better than the average NFL unit by the end of the year to want to continue forward with Gettleman.
Or just sheer stupidity..
Reese does deserve credit for his contributions to the Super Bowl teams. But he can not rest on '07 and '11 his whole career. He also deserves blame for the drafts and other moves that left the Giants where they were years after the Super Bowl.
I don't know why people have to have this either/or mentality
+1
My thoughts exactly.
i've never really hated his drafting. it's been the free agent signings (although i may have been wrong about martinez) and the trades that i've hated
Reading comprehension helps. My replies to both BB56 and your post stated that this wasn't based on just one game.
Yes he had some bad drafts. What team or GM has not had a miss on a 1st round pick?
That 2016 team ws not as baren as people make themn out to be. Maybe it's the way the season ended that makes people view of that team so bad. There weren't as many bad apples as one may think..
Jesus the Reese hate on here is epic
I like Gettleman. I like his folksy and sometimes sarcastic attitude. The one thing that is very hard after seven years or so of craptacular football is patience. Gettleman may have assembled a future core for this team going forward. However, right now it seems like there is nothing this team does really well. The game the other night was better than what we've seen lately from the team but I still found it tough watching. I think I will feel better when we can confidently say yeah X is a strength of the team. I know we say that the DL is a strength but sometimes it doesn't feel like it.
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Is remarkable. I guess those 2 SB's were so long ago that maybe people are forgetting.
Or just sheer stupidity..
Reese does deserve credit for his contributions to the Super Bowl teams. But he can not rest on '07 and '11 his whole career. He also deserves blame for the drafts and other moves that left the Giants where they were years after the Super Bowl.
I don't know why people have to have this either/or mentality
Reese inherited a Hall of Fame coach and QB, as well as one of the best offensive lines in the league, and a group of pass rushers that rival any group we've seen since. Yes, he contributed with drafting guys like Boss, Steve Smith, Manningham, Nicks, Bradshaw, Phillips, JPP, and Linval, as well as some good signings in Cruz as a UDFA, Rolle, Boley, Canty, Deon Grant. There were also countless misses, which would take me too long to list since I'm supposed to be working right now, that led to a complete devoid of talent on this roster for years. My point is, once the Accorsi era players were no longer on the roster, Reese never replaced them with starting NFL caliber players, and he truly set the franchise back several years. That is why I don't think it's fair to judge the job Gettleman has done just yet, even though 3 years in the NFL feels like an eternity.
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In comment 14974298 GManinDC said:
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Is remarkable. I guess those 2 SB's were so long ago that maybe people are forgetting.
Or just sheer stupidity..
Reese does deserve credit for his contributions to the Super Bowl teams. But he can not rest on '07 and '11 his whole career. He also deserves blame for the drafts and other moves that left the Giants where they were years after the Super Bowl.
I don't know why people have to have this either/or mentality
Reese inherited a Hall of Fame coach and QB, as well as one of the best offensive lines in the league, and a group of pass rushers that rival any group we've seen since. Yes, he contributed with drafting guys like Boss, Steve Smith, Manningham, Nicks, Bradshaw, Phillips, JPP, and Linval, as well as some good signings in Cruz as a UDFA, Rolle, Boley, Canty, Deon Grant. There were also countless misses, which would take me too long to list since I'm supposed to be working right now, that led to a complete devoid of talent on this roster for years. My point is, once the Accorsi era players were no longer on the roster, Reese never replaced them with starting NFL caliber players, and he truly set the franchise back several years. That is why I don't think it's fair to judge the job Gettleman has done just yet, even though 3 years in the NFL feels like an eternity.
Hey Shock. Who you think was in charge of Player Personnel during those years? You think Accorsi was scouting Osi and Tuck?
You just named almost the entire 2011 team that won a SB and then downplay it because of some draft misses. Incredible..
Or just sheer stupidity..
Jerry Reese was an amazing Director of player personnel and pro scout, whose contributions to the player acquisitions for those 2 SB runs was immense and key for those 2 runs.
The issue was when Jerry Reese got promoted to GM and Marc Ross took over. That combo mismanaged several drafts in the 2010's which eventually led to his firing and the lack of young talent to build around by the end of the 2017 season.
Yes he had some bad drafts. What team or GM has not had a miss on a 1st round pick?
That 2016 team ws not as baren as people make themn out to be. Maybe it's the way the season ended that makes people view of that team so bad. There weren't as many bad apples as one may think..
If you don't see our overall roster as being the reason why we are in the position we are in, I don't know what else to say.
I don't blame Reese solely for where we are now, but he was the one drafting mostly crap after 2007. Our biggest problems for years were lack of depth, plus poor OL and LB drafting. Aside from wide receiver and literally maybe 3 other hits he absolutely KILLED this roster. It's not even arguable at this point.
Reese takes a lot of shit here, and maybe it's me. But when i keep reading how they draft by committe, vote on who to draft, and how many peole have votes. It's hard for me to single out one guy.
I also beleive it was kind of hard to draft for the future when you have a QB in his prime and you want to win now.
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would be very happy with 2 SB wins.
Yes he had some bad drafts. What team or GM has not had a miss on a 1st round pick?
That 2016 team ws not as baren as people make themn out to be. Maybe it's the way the season ended that makes people view of that team so bad. There weren't as many bad apples as one may think..
If you don't see our overall roster as being the reason why we are in the position we are in, I don't know what else to say.
I don't blame Reese solely for where we are now, but he was the one drafting mostly crap after 2007. Our biggest problems for years were lack of depth, plus poor OL and LB drafting. Aside from wide receiver and literally maybe 3 other hits he absolutely KILLED this roster. It's not even arguable at this point.
I'll ask the same question again. When Gettleman took over the team, did he not say the roster was ready to compete?
I will wait until the bye week to assess DG's work. If Jones, Barkley, Slayton, Thomas, Gates, Hernandez, K. Smith etc., are lighting it up on offense or at least holding their own we can honestly say we have the foundation for a great offense.
DG has been "hit or miss" but I will give him credit for not being afraid to do what he thinks is right. This team's run defense will be SOLID as the season progresses and the DB's will improve as they are so young and in a new system.
I say this team starting 0 - 4 because we start against four good to very good teams from veteran coached systems. We had no pre-season of merit so I knew we'd struggle. However, I am not at this moment seeing the Bears game as unwinnable because the Bears offense shouldn't be too effective. The Bears defense is good and will give us trouble but in my mind they are a notch or two below Pittsburgh.
If the OL cleans up some mental errors and Barkley isn't caught behind the LOS as much, maybe we run the ball just enough to make Jones more effective.
We shall see but so far I like DG's work, outside of moving up for Baker. SMH
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You say you’re looking over a 2-3 year period, not just one game, but then the evidence for your position is one game. Which is it.
Reading comprehension helps. My replies to both BB56 and your post stated that this wasn't based on just one game.
And I quote “ s I know it's only one game this year but when our run defense gets mauled by the Steelers who have a back run for 100+ yards and our O-line not being able to block anyone.“. That’s it that’s what you really are basing this nonsense on. One game.
I will wait until the bye week to assess DG's work. If Jones, Barkley, Slayton, Thomas, Gates, Hernandez, K. Smith etc., are lighting it up on offense or at least holding their own we can honestly say we have the foundation for a great offense.
DG has been "hit or miss" but I will give him credit for not being afraid to do what he thinks is right. This team's run defense will be SOLID as the season progresses and the DB's will improve as they are so young and in a new system.
I say this team starting 0 - 4 because we start against four good to very good teams from veteran coached systems. We had no pre-season of merit so I knew we'd struggle. However, I am not at this moment seeing the Bears game as unwinnable because the Bears offense shouldn't be too effective. The Bears defense is good and will give us trouble but in my mind they are a notch or two below Pittsburgh.
If the OL cleans up some mental errors and Barkley isn't caught behind the LOS as much, maybe we run the ball just enough to make Jones more effective.
We shall see but so far I like DG's work, outside of moving up for Baker. SMH
I agree his drafts were bad after 2007 but he also had some bad breaks (Nicks for example). No doubt his hiring of Ross was a horrible decision. TC was a great coach but I wonder if his loyalty led him to keep some of the players a couple seasons past their expiration.
No more so than saying George Young was a trainwreck based only on his failure to adapt to FA.
Reese, through a combination of poor injury luck and players who didn't pan out, went several seasons with the draft not helping to add solid starters or depth. That's what did him in as well as never figuring out how to fix the OL.
Let's not act like he was terrible.
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In comment 14974319 GManinDC said:
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would be very happy with 2 SB wins.
Yes he had some bad drafts. What team or GM has not had a miss on a 1st round pick?
That 2016 team ws not as baren as people make themn out to be. Maybe it's the way the season ended that makes people view of that team so bad. There weren't as many bad apples as one may think..
If you don't see our overall roster as being the reason why we are in the position we are in, I don't know what else to say.
I don't blame Reese solely for where we are now, but he was the one drafting mostly crap after 2007. Our biggest problems for years were lack of depth, plus poor OL and LB drafting. Aside from wide receiver and literally maybe 3 other hits he absolutely KILLED this roster. It's not even arguable at this point.
I'll ask the same question again. When Gettleman took over the team, did he not say the roster was ready to compete?
3 possible answers:
1. DG actually believed this. In which case he was proved wrong when the team continued to struggle in 2018 with lackluster talent, which doesn't say much for either him or Reese.
2. Ownership believed the Giants just needed to "reload" and wanted DG to take that approach. In which case, bad on ownership.
3. DG wasn't going to kick Reese while he was down and crow about how bad the roster was.
In any case, I put far more store in what a GM actually does in the job rather than a soundbite over a departing GM.
Or just sheer stupidity..
Reese draft many very good NFL players whose careers were cut short -- this is squarely on TC 's terrible conditioning and training program where year after year Giants would lead the league in injuries .
as I have said before when a young gifted player suddenly has career ending injury the GM suddenly has to fill that hole - that is one less potential draft choice or free agency pick up to upgrade another part of the team.. if muiltple players have career ending injuries then the GM can never have enough talent on the team to compete .. This is what happen to Reese .
Reese added several players who contributed right away and were a big reason why we won the SB
- Aaron Ross
- Bradshaw
- Steve Smith
- Alford
- DeOssie
- Boss
- Kawika Mitchell
And all this time I thought it was because Eli purposely was throwing balls high to get them killed.
What a fucking moron
Not really, you would have to go back to the 70's to find a Giants team with a bigger talent void than the team DG inherited from JR.
Agree with this completely. Also, with respect to OP it seems a bit early to declare Barkley potentially Hall of Fame or Jones as a franchise QB. There are certainly reasons to hope for both, but still too early for those characterizations.
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In comment 14974310 KDavies said:
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In comment 14974298 GManinDC said:
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Is remarkable. I guess those 2 SB's were so long ago that maybe people are forgetting.
Or just sheer stupidity..
Reese does deserve credit for his contributions to the Super Bowl teams. But he can not rest on '07 and '11 his whole career. He also deserves blame for the drafts and other moves that left the Giants where they were years after the Super Bowl.
I don't know why people have to have this either/or mentality
Reese inherited a Hall of Fame coach and QB, as well as one of the best offensive lines in the league, and a group of pass rushers that rival any group we've seen since. Yes, he contributed with drafting guys like Boss, Steve Smith, Manningham, Nicks, Bradshaw, Phillips, JPP, and Linval, as well as some good signings in Cruz as a UDFA, Rolle, Boley, Canty, Deon Grant. There were also countless misses, which would take me too long to list since I'm supposed to be working right now, that led to a complete devoid of talent on this roster for years. My point is, once the Accorsi era players were no longer on the roster, Reese never replaced them with starting NFL caliber players, and he truly set the franchise back several years. That is why I don't think it's fair to judge the job Gettleman has done just yet, even though 3 years in the NFL feels like an eternity.
Hey Shock. Who you think was in charge of Player Personnel during those years? You think Accorsi was scouting Osi and Tuck?
You just named almost the entire 2011 team that won a SB and then downplay it because of some draft misses. Incredible..
I don't think I downplayed anything Reese contributed, even a little bit. I didn't sit there naming all the players he brought in to downplay his contributions to the franchise. I don't think I stated anything that is not a fact. Did Reese inherit a Hall of Fame coach and QB? Did he make some very good signings that contributed to championships? 100% yes to both of those questions. Conversely, has he made decisions since that have led to nearly a decade of completely embarrassing football? Yes, I believe he has. When you use the phrase "some missed draft picks", I feel that is extremely kind.
Regarding your comments about Reese as a director of player personnel, that is not what this discussion is about. Similarly, it is not about the fact that Gettleman was the director of pro personnel for Reese's entire tenure as a Giant up through 2011. This thread is a conversation about the two men as GM's of the New York Giants.
Reese inherited a very competitive team and added pieces in 2007 to win the championship. He couldn’t sustain it and 2011 was smoke and mirrors and a QB playing at his best. After 2011, it was all downhill.
Convenient how you cut out the first part of my comment to make your point. Here's what I said...
Here's also what I said to BB56...
Good try though, my comments about your reading comprehension still stands.
the reason for injuries was the conditioning program!!
And all this time I thought it was because Eli purposely was throwing balls high to get them killed
Seriously you don't remember Jerry Palmieri Coughlin's Strength and Conditioning Coach who was so bad that players literally left the Giants because of him
wow how could someone be on BBI so long and yet be so stupid ALL THE TIME ..?? it is an impressive achievement. KUDOS to YOU
Walter Thurmond: Tom Coughlin 'doesn't believe in the modern medicine' - ( New Window )
But it was all Palmeri - who players left because of!!!!
Umm okayyyyy