what makes Pittsburgh better at drafting than us

In comment 14975346 ghost718 said:

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With Pittsburgh,defense is more of a priority.That means the entire unit. The Giants like the big name offensive players a little more. As an example,I don't think the Steelers would have taken Barkley over Chubb.

I think they would have.

Same spot. Same draft. Barkley is better. But Chubb was excellent value since he was taken later.

In comment 14975376 Toth029 said:

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I think they would have. Same spot. Same draft. Barkley is better. But Chubb was excellent value since he was taken later.

Well,I remember watching both players,and I thought they were both top prospects.Each worthy of a high selection.I don't get into value and shit like that.

.

Draft a fucking linebacker in round. How about that? I have not agreed with the positional importance this franchise has applied to its drafting philosophy.

forgot the 1

but I think it is the most important piece. Its also the reason The Giants dropped Shurmur.
Player Development... The Giants have not had a college style program since Coughlin. Take a look at the teams with sustained excellence. The Pats, Ravens, kc, Pitt, Seahawks, those teams have programs and good player development. They rarely pick in the top 10, but end up picking players who turn into Pro-bowlers. It wasn't just the Giants who passed on Dupree and Watt, a lot of other teams passed as well.
The last time the Giants had a "program" was when Accorsi and Coughlin worked together. We hated that Coughlin rarely played rookies early in his tenure, but he made sure that they were coached up and prepared to be on the field. When the Gmen were winning championships and constantly in the playoffs, Accorsi knew the types of players Coughlin needed for his program. Reese came along and changed the scouting(Basketball on turf) and did not find the type of players that Tom needed, for his program. To Gettleman and the Mara's credit, they saw Shurmurs lack of coaching and player development, so they found a guy who wants to build a program, like Alabama and the Patriots.

when you have a good thing going you try to keep that in tact. We've been recycling management for a while now, its going to take hitting on a bunch of picks + developing lesser players to build confidence, momentum, and a reason to keep everything in tact.

We don’t feel LB is a position of need and they are not afraid to draft in the first or second round. Right or wrong the find impact players.

In comment 14975406 Carl in CT said:

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We don’t feel LB is a position of need and they are not afraid to draft in the first or second round. Right or wrong the find impact players.

I think this will be changing with Judge here, coupled with how good Martinez played/effected the defense.

question. They have a plan (drafting defense), they execute their plan, and most importantly, they have a much better GM.

The Giants are always playing catch-up and having to address misses in free agency or making up for unnecessary picks (Barkley, Engram, etc.), and not building an OLine to make them successful.

In comment 14975408 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 14975406 Carl in CT said: Quote: We don’t feel LB is a position of need and they are not afraid to draft in the first or second round. Right or wrong the find impact players. I think this will be changing with Judge here, coupled with how good Martinez played/effected the defense.

There's two parts to that. I do see it changing in that I see Judge having LB as a position of need. I don't necessarily see it manifesting itself as us spending 1st/2nd rounders on LBs. Maybe a Micah Parsons level talent is an exception, but they drafted 4 LBs last year late.

They get at least 1 good player every draft and have for a long time.

4th year players ('17)
- TJ Watt
- JuJu
- Conner
- Sutton

5th year players ('16)
- Sean Davis

6th year players ('15)
- Bud Dupree

7th year players ('14)
- Stephon Tuitt

You can stretch back as far as you want and the trend holds since before Ben - 1 player who had a solid multi-year career at minimum every draft - Vince Williams ('13), Decastro ('12), Heyward ('11), Pouncey ('10), Wallace ('09), Timmons/Woodley ('07), Holmes ('06), Miller ('05), Ben ('04), Ploamalu ('03), and on an on.

Our entire list of current players from the 2010-2017 timeframe is Shepard, Engram, Tomlinson, Gallman. They have more out of the 2017 draft alone than we got out of those 7 drafts combined.

The last 3 drafts would likely actually skew in our favor. If we count starters only it's basically Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Slayton, Carter, Hernandez, Thomas vs. Terrell Edmunds, James Washington, Devin Bush, Diontae Johnson, (I'd count Minkah too). So good news! It seems we are heading in the right direction!

Art Rooney Jr. drafted nine Hall of Fame players, but was still fired when he stopped performing and was not part of Steelers staff until 21 years later .

Meanwhile Chris Mara has failed since 2011 BUT WILL NEVER BE FIRED!

In comment 14975442 Eric on Li said:

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They get at least 1 good player every draft and have for a long time. 4th year players ('17) - TJ Watt - JuJu - Conner - Sutton 5th year players ('16) - Sean Davis 6th year players ('15) - Bud Dupree 7th year players ('14) - Stephon Tuitt You can stretch back as far as you want and the trend holds since before Ben - 1 player who had a solid multi-year career at minimum every draft - Vince Williams ('13), Decastro ('12), Heyward ('11), Pouncey ('10), Wallace ('09), Timmons/Woodley ('07), Holmes ('06), Miller ('05), Ben ('04), Ploamalu ('03), and on an on. Our entire list of current players from the 2010-2017 timeframe is Shepard, Engram, Tomlinson, Gallman. They have more out of the 2017 draft alone than we got out of those 7 drafts combined. The last 3 drafts would likely actually skew in our favor. If we count starters only it's basically Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Slayton, Carter, Hernandez, Thomas vs. Terrell Edmunds, James Washington, Devin Bush, Diontae Johnson, (I'd count Minkah too). So good news! It seems we are heading in the right direction!

If you're going to do something like this you have to include Beckham or if not, then Peppers and Lawrence since the Giants turned Beckham into those players.

Otherwise it seems disingenuous - still a good illustration, but leaving out Beckham (or others) it is incomplete.

because philosophically they are scouting correctly for the modern game.

All GMs have hits and misses but fitting the asset allocation together with the correct philosophy is what the good teams do.

Accorsi was far from perfect but he had a pretty simple philosophy. A great QB and pass rushers. You can never have too many pass rushers. Look at who he drafted, where he spent his money and what the results were.

The current Giants GM has been on the job 3 full years and the Giants don't have a single impact pass rusher on the team. The Steelers are loaded with them all the good teams are.

In comment 14975449 pjcas18 said:

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In comment 14975442 Eric on Li said: Quote: They get at least 1 good player every draft and have for a long time. 4th year players ('17) - TJ Watt - JuJu - Conner - Sutton 5th year players ('16) - Sean Davis 6th year players ('15) - Bud Dupree 7th year players ('14) - Stephon Tuitt You can stretch back as far as you want and the trend holds since before Ben - 1 player who had a solid multi-year career at minimum every draft - Vince Williams ('13), Decastro ('12), Heyward ('11), Pouncey ('10), Wallace ('09), Timmons/Woodley ('07), Holmes ('06), Miller ('05), Ben ('04), Ploamalu ('03), and on an on. Our entire list of current players from the 2010-2017 timeframe is Shepard, Engram, Tomlinson, Gallman. They have more out of the 2017 draft alone than we got out of those 7 drafts combined. The last 3 drafts would likely actually skew in our favor. If we count starters only it's basically Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Slayton, Carter, Hernandez, Thomas vs. Terrell Edmunds, James Washington, Devin Bush, Diontae Johnson, (I'd count Minkah too). So good news! It seems we are heading in the right direction! If you're going to do something like this you have to include Beckham or if not, then Peppers and Lawrence since the Giants turned Beckham into those players. Otherwise it seems disingenuous - still a good illustration, but leaving out Beckham (or others) it is incomplete.

And JPP, Linval Joseph, Justin Pugh, Flowers, Collins and Apple.

is really a player but somebody must like him :-)

I believe the Giants brought Gettleman in with dual, somewhat conflicting goals: 1) make one more run with Eli if possible; 2) rebuild a post-Eli team.

The attempt at one more run for Eli was a fool’s errand, though understandable given management’s love for and loyalty to Eli. I think they wanted to believe they could give him one more ride.

We are now into the rebuild proper. We have our new young QB. They’re trying to build around him with a blue chip LT. We’ve tried to build the DBs up, Baker’s fiasco being a real setback. We still need a lot, sadly (depending on Peart’s development and whether Carter becomes consistent) - DE, C, WR, OLB, C. And if Jones doesn’t continue to improve as we hope...we’re at square 1.

Dan Rooney Jr. - Player Personnel Coordinator
Dan Colbert - College/Pro Scout

so if you want to include them yes you can add OBJ, Collins.

For Pitt you'd then also include:
Javon Hargrave
Leveon Bell
Emmanuel Sanders
Kelvin Beachum
Marcus Gilbert
Artie Burns

Also not included for Pitt since '10 were Antonio Brown, Ryan Shazier, and Martavis Bryant for obvious reasons.

In comment 14975442 Eric on Li said:

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The last 3 drafts would likely actually skew in our favor. If we count starters only it's basically Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Slayton, Carter, Hernandez, Thomas vs. Terrell Edmunds, James Washington, Devin Bush, Diontae Johnson, (I'd count Minkah too). So good news! It seems we are heading in the right direction!

Thus far Carter and Hernandez are not good players.

seemed to be more of a comparison between the groups on the field for each respective team this past week. So that's the group who I focused on from the Steelers drafts.

not all of those guys for the Steelers are "good players" yet either - most of them are still TBD because they are either in year 2 or 3.

In comment 14975499 Eric on Li said:

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so if you want to include them yes you can add OBJ, Collins. For Pitt you'd then also include: Javon Hargrave Leveon Bell Emmanuel Sanders Kelvin Beachum Marcus Gilbert Artie Burns Also not included for Pitt since '10 were Antonio Brown, Ryan Shazier, and Martavis Bryant for obvious reasons.

Players who leave in FA or get cut is one thing, players you trade is different IMO.

Which is why I suggested to include Beckham.

but the player you cut or who leave in FA are different - that asset is gone.

Peppers and Lawrence (a direct result of Beckham) are still on the Giants.

If the Steelers have similar players on their roster who are the result of traded players they should count for your draft record comparison.

The main point was saying the Giants just have x players on their roster form those years is a misleading indictment of their draft record (and unnecessary).

In comment 14975500 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 14975442 Eric on Li said: Quote: The last 3 drafts would likely actually skew in our favor. If we count starters only it's basically Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Slayton, Carter, Hernandez, Thomas vs. Terrell Edmunds, James Washington, Devin Bush, Diontae Johnson, (I'd count Minkah too). So good news! It seems we are heading in the right direction! Thus far Carter and Hernandez are not good players.

They're not bad players. At best and at worst, they're developing players.

Pitt has 0 such drafts. Pitt has at least 2 players from each of their drafts still active.

They have drafted better.
They retained their talented players better.
They put a better team on the field.

It's not that complicated. Though I do believe in the last few years the draft output has narrowed. Part of that is due to having more draft capital but you still need to pick good players.

and I am agreeing the Steelers have been better drafting than the Giants.

Your post was incomplete, unless that was your goal - an incomplete post - then mission accomplished.

In comment 14975502 Eric on Li said:

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seemed to be more of a comparison between the groups on the field for each respective team this past week. So that's the group who I focused on from the Steelers drafts.

understood

In comment 14975515 pjcas18 said:

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and I am agreeing the Steelers have been better drafting than the Giants. Your post was incomplete, unless that was your goal - an incomplete post - then mission accomplished.

No - the goal was to point out that the team whose roster is being praised for "destroying ours" had been constructed over an entire decade while our longest tenured player was drafted in 2016 because we drafted poorly most of the decade and are in progress on a rebuild. Only 2 players we drafted in the 3 drafts from '10-'12 are still in the NFL at all. That number is 9 for Steelers including 3 who started on Monday (Pouncey, Williams, Heyward).

So I suppose the point of my post was taking issue with comparing the roster of an organization that has had a successful decade and one that hasn't and ignoring the reality that there's no switch to flip that quickly.

Bud Dupree is sort of a perfect example because he had a pretty middling career up until his 5th year last year. Player development and building a roster takes time, and obviously drafting poorly to the point where we have very few 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th year players makes it that much harder.

response was simply a reaction to this sentence:

Quote:

....Our entire list of current players from the 2010-2017 timeframe is Shepard, Engram, Tomlinson, Gallman. They have more out of the 2017 draft alone than we got out of those 7 drafts combined. ...

For this sentence to be more accurate you should include Peppers (at least) since Beckham was drafted in that window and traded and unlike players who get cut or leave via free agency a traded player is one you as a team controlled to acquire a different player (in Beckham's case).

that was it.

every year but pass because we prefer a flashy skill position player or need to shore up the OL.

Just look at former draft day threads to see which D players the members are pushing. You can start with Aaron Donald and end with 2019 if you want.

Struggling to draft/build a competent OL has certainly hurt us.

Free agency and making trades.

The Fitz trade made the defense elite. If they had anything at QB last year they would have been a contender.

They traded nothing for TE Mcdonald. A gave up a late 4th round pick for a early 5th and McDonald.. They only gave up 10 draft spots to get McDonald. A steal.

They always seem to make the right call on not overpaying their guys too.

In comment 14975527 pjcas18 said:

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response was simply a reaction to this sentence: Quote: ....Our entire list of current players from the 2010-2017 timeframe is Shepard, Engram, Tomlinson, Gallman. They have more out of the 2017 draft alone than we got out of those 7 drafts combined. ... For this sentence to be more accurate you should include Peppers (at least) since Beckham was drafted in that window and traded and unlike players who get cut or leave via free agency a traded player is one you as a team controlled to acquire a different player (in Beckham's case). that was it.

Ok I'd say that's bizarrely semantical but Peppers doesn't change the point. There are reasons why nobody we picked ourselves in those pre-2016 drafts was on the field while the Steelers had Dupree, Heyward, and Tuitt wreaking havoc. There's not much need to do any mental gymnastics to dismiss such an obvious reality or downplay it. Switch the jerseys for those 3 players alone and it's a different game.

There is no all star team of former NYG draft picks who left the building being ignored. I believe Joseph is probably the only guy selected in those 6 years who left and still made a pro bowl, and we let him leave.

In comment 14975462 arniefez said:

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because philosophically they are scouting correctly for the modern game. All GMs have hits and misses but fitting the asset allocation together with the correct philosophy is what the good teams do. Accorsi was far from perfect but he had a pretty simple philosophy. A great QB and pass rushers. You can never have too many pass rushers. Look at who he drafted, where he spent his money and what the results were. The current Giants GM has been on the job 3 full years and the Giants don't have a single impact pass rusher on the team. The Steelers are loaded with them all the good teams are.

That's exactly right and very well said. If you look at the teams that are regularly in contention they have philosophy's rooted in modern football - KC, Seattle, NE, Pitt, Balt. Get the top qb, the OL, pass rushers, and CBs and everything else is interchangeable. Resource allocation is critical and those are the most impactful positions in the sport. The Giants may have their qb, but a long way to go to fill the other positions. When the Giants were at their best, those positions were at their best.

it's just using facts vs being unnecessarily incomplete in an effort to accentuate a point that didn't need it.

When you said:


"They have more out of the 2017 draft alone than we got out of those 7 drafts combined.."

Leaving out Beckham isn't some mental gymnastics by me, it's a fact, he is (was) arguably the best player on either team out of the period you compared and him as an asset led to Peppers.

not including him makes your "analysis" incomplete.

When you post something people will comment on it, if you don't want people to comment on it don't post it.

We have double the SB victories.
But- they have certainly been a MUCH more consistent franchise no doubt.

In comment 14975563 pjcas18 said:

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it's just using facts vs being unnecessarily incomplete in an effort to accentuate a point that didn't need it. When you said: "They have more out of the 2017 draft alone than we got out of those 7 drafts combined.." Leaving out Beckham isn't some mental gymnastics by me, it's a fact, he is (was) arguably the best player on either team out of the period you compared and him as an asset led to Peppers. not including him makes your "analysis" incomplete. When you post something people will comment on it, if you don't want people to comment on it don't post it.

I explained my original post omitted players from both organizations who are not currently on their rosters because the purpose of the post was why the Steelers roster is better now, in the present, looking like the SB contender they are against us the rebuilding team we are Monday night.

I didn't include OBJ for the same reason I didn't include Antonio Brown who was also drafted in that period and inarguably just as impactful a player over his career in Pittsburgh.

GM makes the decisons. Very simple. Pure football decisions without the maybe 5 different opinions on who should be drafted.

One person has accountability. Isn't that how most football operations run?

DG had a very average resume when he was hired. They fell too much for the Giants connection when there were much better candidates available, over an average veteran GM at the end of his career.

They should've poached someone from Pittsburgh itself. Or NE's FO or KC or any other well run team.

They didn’t have Dave Gettleman or late stage Jerry Reese making picks and signing free agents. We did. That gives just about every other org in the league a leg up on us.

In comment 14975497 Pete in MD said:

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Dan Rooney Jr. - Player Personnel Coordinator Dan Colbert - College/Pro Scout

FWIW, Tim Rooney was director of pro personnel for the Giants from 1985-1999.

I really liked him a lot. I don't recall reading he got fired or retired, but they just evaluate talent well. Our drafts have really hurt us. Injuries as well to our draft picks didn't help.

"Continuity, chemistry, scheme, draft quality players. The Steelers have, for pretty much 17 years, made their defense a main priority when it comes to coaching and drafting....It is in their blood."

This is what the Giants used to do. Regardless of how the offense performed you knew you had to deal with the Giants defense. And they weren't going to stop coming atcha. There was a time when you mentioned Chicago, NYG and the Vikings defenses in the same breath. A few other teams like Buffalo later. But the Giants were always part of the "defense" discussion.

The Giants got away from that. Teams like the Steelers and Ravens have kept it going. Murderous defenses.

Think about this for a second, if the Giants had a murderous defense can you even begin to comprehend how dangerous the offense with DJ would be against an opponent that's always on its heels? The results would actually be pretty silly.

for the Steelers. Last I knew he was spotted flying in a jetpack next to landing airliners at LAX. I kid.

In comment 14975497 Pete in MD said:

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Dan Rooney Jr. - Player Personnel Coordinator Dan Colbert - College/Pro Scout

Assuming there will be no nepotism at all in a privately owned organization is unrealistic. Nepotism is necessarily bad,related people can be highly skilled and qualified.

But when it isn't working and you refuse to change, you get bad results.

play and coaching. Pittsburgh didn't make the playoffs last year - why?, Ben got hurt. I'm hopeful Jones has the goods, along with Judge. If Jones is indeed a very good QB, and Judge is a good head coach, the team will compete for the division soon enough.

Also, way too many on here re-writing history regarding Accorsi. His time as GM is very much a mixed bag, but he was right on Eli and TC. I hope we have a similar combination now.

In comment 14975969 RollBlue said:

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play and coaching. Pittsburgh didn't make the playoffs last year - why?, Ben got hurt. I'm hopeful Jones has the goods, along with Judge. If Jones is indeed a very good QB, and Judge is a good head coach, the team will compete for the division soon enough. Also, way too many on here re-writing history regarding Accorsi. His time as GM is very much a mixed bag, but he was right on Eli and TC. I hope we have a similar combination now.

Amen.

Also,comparing DG's 3 year term to date to the Steelers' last decade is a canard. It's too soon to even judge DG's 3 years. Which BTW look as good or better than the Steelers' past 3 years - which is also way too early to pass judgement on.

Sheesh.

he had terrible OL's for the majority of his tenure with Fassel and didn't put very much resource into it. The 2000 SB team had the ancient Glenn Parker and Lomas Brown hanging on by threads. The rebuild on the fly version after that was mostly late draft picks and UDFA's they got lucky with like Jason Wittle, Chris Bober, Mike Rosenthal. When Rosenthal got poached they replaced him with guys like Ian Allen.

then Coughlin came to town and in his first draft they took Snee and signed O'Hara in year 1, Mckenzie year 2. Reese I'm sure was involved in the Snee pick, plus the previous additions of Diehl/Seubert, but obviously that was an area where he did not succeed in reinvesting as well as Accorsi had done.

Accorsi's tenure was a mixed bag but at the end he left 3 legacies:
- Eli
- A top OL
- "you can never have enough pass rushers"

Reese contributed to building all 3 areas when he ran the drafts but after becoming GM but just didn't have good succession plans for reinvesting in any of those 3 areas.

If he'd traded up for Mahomes/Watson instead of taking Davis Webb, or rebuilt the OL better, or taken say TJ Watt/Donald instead of Engram/OBJ, he might still be GM today.

Don’t go after a high level front office guys from the Ravens or Steelers, the come with that philosophy of fast athletic aggression the Giants lack.

They had no Reese and no Gettleman.