from Sy's game review
How do you build an elite defense? Continuity, chemistry, scheme, draft quality players. The Steelers have, for pretty much 17 years, made their defense a main priority when it comes to coaching and drafting. In that span, they’ve ranked top 10 in points allowed 12 times and top 5 in points allowed 7 times. It is in their blood. When it comes to personnel, they they rarely miss in the 1st round. Devin Bush, T.J. Watt, Bud Dupree, Ryan Shazier, Cam Heyward…all those guys have been drafted since 2011 in round 1 and they all (minus the injured Shazier) are still making an impact on this team in a big way. Add in the trade for Minkah Fitzpatrick and you are looking at 5 elite players at their respective positions and I would say 4 of 20 the league’s Defensive Player of the Year candidates.
Speaking of drafting, I did a team study on the Steelers and their success at drafting skill position players in the middle rounds. In rounds 2-4 since 2017, take a look at these names: JuJu Smith-Schuster (round 2), James Conner (round 4), James Washington (round 2), Diontae Johnson (round 2), Benny Snell (round 4), Chase Claypool (round 2), and a name you will hear about soon enough in Anthony McFarland (round 2). You will have a hard time finding more homegrown skill position talent in the league. |
a snippet from an article in the athletic
Impressively, Pittsburgh drafted Watt and Dupree with late first-round picks — Watt went seven picks after Engram in the 2017 draft. The Giants have had seven picks in the top 36 in general manager Dave Gettleman’s three drafts and haven’t landed a dominant defensive player with any of those selections. |
anyone care to speculate on the reasons for Pitt's draft success compared to ours? Are their scouts simply superior to ours? What about their approach to the draft is different?
This is a pick that should have been bringing us big benefits by now, a player moving into his prime. Instead we get a TE who can't block, is not a good receiver, and gets hurt every year. But I guess he can run fast.
The Giants have had 2 GMs and several different VPs of scouting (or whatever the position is), not to mention 4 HCs. Each of those HC's had different schemes and player's they wanted.
And the coaching staff is obviously also responsible for developing the selected players. None of these guys are finished products when they come out.
only 2 coaches have been in place longer than Tomlin (Belichick and Payton) - notice a trend?
Only 1 non-owner GM has been in place longer than Colbert (Belichick)
I think it's a chicken and egg thing though, you need success to earn stability and longevity.
This is a pick that should have been bringing us big benefits by now, a player moving into his prime. Instead we get a TE who can't block, is not a good receiver, and gets hurt every year. But I guess he can run fast.
Word, the Giants could have had an All Pro OLB (Watt) or an All Pro OT (Ramcyzk), both positions of need.
Travis Beckum 2.0 was not a position of need.
What makes you better or worse than workers who do the same job that you do?
People are not machines. Some are better at their jobs, some worse.
I feel like when we had Reese in scouting and Accorsi as the GM we had a few years in the aughts where we hit on a lot of players every year.
This has nothing to do with "need" vs. "value."
This has to do with bad talent evaluation.
This has nothing to do with "need" vs. "value."
This has to do with bad talent evaluation.
No kidding. But it was doubly bad because OL and LB were the worst units on the team... for years.
That is an easy answer and I am certainly not going to say it is wrong but I do think it is much more nuanced than that.
1. They know what kind of football team they want to be, especially defensively. Scouting college players has become much more difficult lately becomes schemes have become so varied. But if youve been scouting the same type of player for years on end, you get good at it. Constantly changing schemes means valuing traits differently and evaluating those skill sets is like anything else - the more you do it, the better you are.
If you have been scouting "tampa 2 corners" for 13 years, you get really good at it.
2. Continuity at the top. Colbert has been the GM for 10 years and Tomlin the coach for 13 years. Again, a shared vision.
This also means that there is not AS MUCH pressure to win now - which often leads to reaching in the draft and in free agency.
3. Player Development. I can tell you that my friend in the Steeler organization has said this about the WRs many times. He says that is a big part of their success at the position is that veteran players feel a responsibility to teach younger players. He says it started with Hines Ward. Same with linebackers.
I mean, how many players on Joe Judge's roster were drafted for previous coaches and staffs.
We need to find stability with the coaching staff first.
The Giants like the big name offensive players a little more.
As an example,I don't think the Steelers would have taken Barkley over Chubb.
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of easy answer... better scouting department from top to bottom. That includes the GM.
That is an easy answer and I am certainly not going to say it is wrong but I do think it is much more nuanced than that.
1. They know what kind of football team they want to be, especially defensively. Scouting college players has become much more difficult lately becomes schemes have become so varied. But if youve been scouting the same type of player for years on end, you get good at it. Constantly changing schemes means valuing traits differently and evaluating those skill sets is like anything else - the more you do it, the better you are.
If you have been scouting "tampa 2 corners" for 13 years, you get really good at it.
2. Continuity at the top. Colbert has been the GM for 10 years and Tomlin the coach for 13 years. Again, a shared vision.
This also means that there is not AS MUCH pressure to win now - which often leads to reaching in the draft and in free agency.
3. Player Development. I can tell you that my friend in the Steeler organization has said this about the WRs many times. He says that is a big part of their success at the position is that veteran players feel a responsibility to teach younger players. He says it started with Hines Ward. Same with linebackers.
This is an excellent point. With continuity comes identity. Although Gettleman is not long on the tooth, hopefully Judge establishes the identity of the team, and the Giants find players that fit that identity.
When you go from Coughlin to McAdoo to Shurmur so quickly, you wind up getting square pegs in round holes. This is certainly not the only factor, but that is definitely a large factor. Take Engram for instance. He was drafted between the McAdoo/Shurmur regimes with the West Coast offense. Now that they have a different offense, he's not as much of a fit. (Either way, he was not the right pick).
But this can be chicken/egg.
If the Giants wanted to play GIANTS football. They’d have a philosophy the preaches OL, Pass Rush, and Linebackers. Those are the things synonymous with the GIANTS. Over the last couple years we’ve gotten cute with skill position players and invested a lot of capital in DBs that haven’t panned out. The only thing we can draft with any consistency is Defensive Tackles.
They've gone linebacker three times with their first round picks during that period. Imagine the Giants doing that!
Of course, they're also unlike the Giants in that they hardly ever get to draft high up the board.
The Giants like the big name offensive players a little more.
As an example,I don't think the Steelers would have taken Barkley over Chubb.
I think they would have.
Same spot. Same draft. Barkley is better. But Chubb was excellent value since he was taken later.
Same spot. Same draft. Barkley is better. But Chubb was excellent value since he was taken later.
Well,I remember watching both players,and I thought they were both top prospects.Each worthy of a high selection.I don't get into value and shit like that.
Player Development... The Giants have not had a college style program since Coughlin. Take a look at the teams with sustained excellence. The Pats, Ravens, kc, Pitt, Seahawks, those teams have programs and good player development. They rarely pick in the top 10, but end up picking players who turn into Pro-bowlers. It wasn't just the Giants who passed on Dupree and Watt, a lot of other teams passed as well.
The last time the Giants had a "program" was when Accorsi and Coughlin worked together. We hated that Coughlin rarely played rookies early in his tenure, but he made sure that they were coached up and prepared to be on the field. When the Gmen were winning championships and constantly in the playoffs, Accorsi knew the types of players Coughlin needed for his program. Reese came along and changed the scouting(Basketball on turf) and did not find the type of players that Tom needed, for his program. To Gettleman and the Mara's credit, they saw Shurmurs lack of coaching and player development, so they found a guy who wants to build a program, like Alabama and the Patriots.
I think this will be changing with Judge here, coupled with how good Martinez played/effected the defense.
The Giants are always playing catch-up and having to address misses in free agency or making up for unnecessary picks (Barkley, Engram, etc.), and not building an OLine to make them successful.
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We don’t feel LB is a position of need and they are not afraid to draft in the first or second round. Right or wrong the find impact players.
I think this will be changing with Judge here, coupled with how good Martinez played/effected the defense.
There's two parts to that. I do see it changing in that I see Judge having LB as a position of need. I don't necessarily see it manifesting itself as us spending 1st/2nd rounders on LBs. Maybe a Micah Parsons level talent is an exception, but they drafted 4 LBs last year late.
4th year players ('17)
- TJ Watt
- JuJu
- Conner
- Sutton
5th year players ('16)
- Sean Davis
6th year players ('15)
- Bud Dupree
7th year players ('14)
- Stephon Tuitt
You can stretch back as far as you want and the trend holds since before Ben - 1 player who had a solid multi-year career at minimum every draft - Vince Williams ('13), Decastro ('12), Heyward ('11), Pouncey ('10), Wallace ('09), Timmons/Woodley ('07), Holmes ('06), Miller ('05), Ben ('04), Ploamalu ('03), and on an on.
Our entire list of current players from the 2010-2017 timeframe is Shepard, Engram, Tomlinson, Gallman. They have more out of the 2017 draft alone than we got out of those 7 drafts combined.
The last 3 drafts would likely actually skew in our favor. If we count starters only it's basically Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Slayton, Carter, Hernandez, Thomas vs. Terrell Edmunds, James Washington, Devin Bush, Diontae Johnson, (I'd count Minkah too). So good news! It seems we are heading in the right direction!
Meanwhile Chris Mara has failed since 2011 BUT WILL NEVER BE FIRED!
4th year players ('17)
- TJ Watt
- JuJu
- Conner
- Sutton
5th year players ('16)
- Sean Davis
6th year players ('15)
- Bud Dupree
7th year players ('14)
- Stephon Tuitt
You can stretch back as far as you want and the trend holds since before Ben - 1 player who had a solid multi-year career at minimum every draft - Vince Williams ('13), Decastro ('12), Heyward ('11), Pouncey ('10), Wallace ('09), Timmons/Woodley ('07), Holmes ('06), Miller ('05), Ben ('04), Ploamalu ('03), and on an on.
Our entire list of current players from the 2010-2017 timeframe is Shepard, Engram, Tomlinson, Gallman. They have more out of the 2017 draft alone than we got out of those 7 drafts combined.
The last 3 drafts would likely actually skew in our favor. If we count starters only it's basically Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Slayton, Carter, Hernandez, Thomas vs. Terrell Edmunds, James Washington, Devin Bush, Diontae Johnson, (I'd count Minkah too). So good news! It seems we are heading in the right direction!
If you're going to do something like this you have to include Beckham or if not, then Peppers and Lawrence since the Giants turned Beckham into those players.
Otherwise it seems disingenuous - still a good illustration, but leaving out Beckham (or others) it is incomplete.
All GMs have hits and misses but fitting the asset allocation together with the correct philosophy is what the good teams do.
Accorsi was far from perfect but he had a pretty simple philosophy. A great QB and pass rushers. You can never have too many pass rushers. Look at who he drafted, where he spent his money and what the results were.
The current Giants GM has been on the job 3 full years and the Giants don't have a single impact pass rusher on the team. The Steelers are loaded with them all the good teams are.
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They get at least 1 good player every draft and have for a long time.
4th year players ('17)
- TJ Watt
- JuJu
- Conner
- Sutton
5th year players ('16)
- Sean Davis
6th year players ('15)
- Bud Dupree
7th year players ('14)
- Stephon Tuitt
You can stretch back as far as you want and the trend holds since before Ben - 1 player who had a solid multi-year career at minimum every draft - Vince Williams ('13), Decastro ('12), Heyward ('11), Pouncey ('10), Wallace ('09), Timmons/Woodley ('07), Holmes ('06), Miller ('05), Ben ('04), Ploamalu ('03), and on an on.
Our entire list of current players from the 2010-2017 timeframe is Shepard, Engram, Tomlinson, Gallman. They have more out of the 2017 draft alone than we got out of those 7 drafts combined.
The last 3 drafts would likely actually skew in our favor. If we count starters only it's basically Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Slayton, Carter, Hernandez, Thomas vs. Terrell Edmunds, James Washington, Devin Bush, Diontae Johnson, (I'd count Minkah too). So good news! It seems we are heading in the right direction!
If you're going to do something like this you have to include Beckham or if not, then Peppers and Lawrence since the Giants turned Beckham into those players.
Otherwise it seems disingenuous - still a good illustration, but leaving out Beckham (or others) it is incomplete.
And JPP, Linval Joseph, Justin Pugh, Flowers, Collins and Apple.
The attempt at one more run for Eli was a fool’s errand, though understandable given management’s love for and loyalty to Eli. I think they wanted to believe they could give him one more ride.
We are now into the rebuild proper. We have our new young QB. They’re trying to build around him with a blue chip LT. We’ve tried to build the DBs up, Baker’s fiasco being a real setback. We still need a lot, sadly (depending on Peart’s development and whether Carter becomes consistent) - DE, C, WR, OLB, C. And if Jones doesn’t continue to improve as we hope...we’re at square 1.
Dan Colbert - College/Pro Scout
For Pitt you'd then also include:
Javon Hargrave
Leveon Bell
Emmanuel Sanders
Kelvin Beachum
Marcus Gilbert
Artie Burns
Also not included for Pitt since '10 were Antonio Brown, Ryan Shazier, and Martavis Bryant for obvious reasons.
Thus far Carter and Hernandez are not good players.
For Pitt you'd then also include:
Javon Hargrave
Leveon Bell
Emmanuel Sanders
Kelvin Beachum
Marcus Gilbert
Artie Burns
Also not included for Pitt since '10 were Antonio Brown, Ryan Shazier, and Martavis Bryant for obvious reasons.
Players who leave in FA or get cut is one thing, players you trade is different IMO.
Which is why I suggested to include Beckham.
but the player you cut or who leave in FA are different - that asset is gone.
Peppers and Lawrence (a direct result of Beckham) are still on the Giants.
If the Steelers have similar players on their roster who are the result of traded players they should count for your draft record comparison.
The main point was saying the Giants just have x players on their roster form those years is a misleading indictment of their draft record (and unnecessary).
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The last 3 drafts would likely actually skew in our favor. If we count starters only it's basically Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Slayton, Carter, Hernandez, Thomas vs. Terrell Edmunds, James Washington, Devin Bush, Diontae Johnson, (I'd count Minkah too). So good news! It seems we are heading in the right direction!
Thus far Carter and Hernandez are not good players.
They're not bad players. At best and at worst, they're developing players.
They have drafted better.
They retained their talented players better.
They put a better team on the field.
It's not that complicated. Though I do believe in the last few years the draft output has narrowed. Part of that is due to having more draft capital but you still need to pick good players.
Your post was incomplete, unless that was your goal - an incomplete post - then mission accomplished.
understood
Your post was incomplete, unless that was your goal - an incomplete post - then mission accomplished.
No - the goal was to point out that the team whose roster is being praised for "destroying ours" had been constructed over an entire decade while our longest tenured player was drafted in 2016 because we drafted poorly most of the decade and are in progress on a rebuild. Only 2 players we drafted in the 3 drafts from '10-'12 are still in the NFL at all. That number is 9 for Steelers including 3 who started on Monday (Pouncey, Williams, Heyward).
So I suppose the point of my post was taking issue with comparing the roster of an organization that has had a successful decade and one that hasn't and ignoring the reality that there's no switch to flip that quickly.
Bud Dupree is sort of a perfect example because he had a pretty middling career up until his 5th year last year. Player development and building a roster takes time, and obviously drafting poorly to the point where we have very few 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th year players makes it that much harder.
For this sentence to be more accurate you should include Peppers (at least) since Beckham was drafted in that window and traded and unlike players who get cut or leave via free agency a traded player is one you as a team controlled to acquire a different player (in Beckham's case).
that was it.
Just look at former draft day threads to see which D players the members are pushing. You can start with Aaron Donald and end with 2019 if you want.
Struggling to draft/build a competent OL has certainly hurt us.
The Fitz trade made the defense elite. If they had anything at QB last year they would have been a contender.
They traded nothing for TE Mcdonald. A gave up a late 4th round pick for a early 5th and McDonald.. They only gave up 10 draft spots to get McDonald. A steal.
They always seem to make the right call on not overpaying their guys too.
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....Our entire list of current players from the 2010-2017 timeframe is Shepard, Engram, Tomlinson, Gallman. They have more out of the 2017 draft alone than we got out of those 7 drafts combined. ...
For this sentence to be more accurate you should include Peppers (at least) since Beckham was drafted in that window and traded and unlike players who get cut or leave via free agency a traded player is one you as a team controlled to acquire a different player (in Beckham's case).
that was it.
Ok I'd say that's bizarrely semantical but Peppers doesn't change the point. There are reasons why nobody we picked ourselves in those pre-2016 drafts was on the field while the Steelers had Dupree, Heyward, and Tuitt wreaking havoc. There's not much need to do any mental gymnastics to dismiss such an obvious reality or downplay it. Switch the jerseys for those 3 players alone and it's a different game.
There is no all star team of former NYG draft picks who left the building being ignored. I believe Joseph is probably the only guy selected in those 6 years who left and still made a pro bowl, and we let him leave.
All GMs have hits and misses but fitting the asset allocation together with the correct philosophy is what the good teams do.
Accorsi was far from perfect but he had a pretty simple philosophy. A great QB and pass rushers. You can never have too many pass rushers. Look at who he drafted, where he spent his money and what the results were.
The current Giants GM has been on the job 3 full years and the Giants don't have a single impact pass rusher on the team. The Steelers are loaded with them all the good teams are.
That's exactly right and very well said. If you look at the teams that are regularly in contention they have philosophy's rooted in modern football - KC, Seattle, NE, Pitt, Balt. Get the top qb, the OL, pass rushers, and CBs and everything else is interchangeable. Resource allocation is critical and those are the most impactful positions in the sport. The Giants may have their qb, but a long way to go to fill the other positions. When the Giants were at their best, those positions were at their best.
When you said:
"They have more out of the 2017 draft alone than we got out of those 7 drafts combined.."
Leaving out Beckham isn't some mental gymnastics by me, it's a fact, he is (was) arguably the best player on either team out of the period you compared and him as an asset led to Peppers.
not including him makes your "analysis" incomplete.
When you post something people will comment on it, if you don't want people to comment on it don't post it.
But- they have certainly been a MUCH more consistent franchise no doubt.
When you said:
"They have more out of the 2017 draft alone than we got out of those 7 drafts combined.."
Leaving out Beckham isn't some mental gymnastics by me, it's a fact, he is (was) arguably the best player on either team out of the period you compared and him as an asset led to Peppers.
not including him makes your "analysis" incomplete.
When you post something people will comment on it, if you don't want people to comment on it don't post it.
I explained my original post omitted players from both organizations who are not currently on their rosters because the purpose of the post was why the Steelers roster is better now, in the present, looking like the SB contender they are against us the rebuilding team we are Monday night.
I didn't include OBJ for the same reason I didn't include Antonio Brown who was also drafted in that period and inarguably just as impactful a player over his career in Pittsburgh.
One person has accountability. Isn't that how most football operations run?
They should've poached someone from Pittsburgh itself. Or NE's FO or KC or any other well run team.
Dan Colbert - College/Pro Scout
FWIW, Tim Rooney was director of pro personnel for the Giants from 1985-1999.
This is what the Giants used to do. Regardless of how the offense performed you knew you had to deal with the Giants defense. And they weren't going to stop coming atcha. There was a time when you mentioned Chicago, NYG and the Vikings defenses in the same breath. A few other teams like Buffalo later. But the Giants were always part of the "defense" discussion.
The Giants got away from that. Teams like the Steelers and Ravens have kept it going. Murderous defenses.
Think about this for a second, if the Giants had a murderous defense can you even begin to comprehend how dangerous the offense with DJ would be against an opponent that's always on its heels? The results would actually be pretty silly.
Dan Colbert - College/Pro Scout
Assuming there will be no nepotism at all in a privately owned organization is unrealistic. Nepotism is necessarily bad,related people can be highly skilled and qualified.
But when it isn't working and you refuse to change, you get bad results.
Also, way too many on here re-writing history regarding Accorsi. His time as GM is very much a mixed bag, but he was right on Eli and TC. I hope we have a similar combination now.
Also, way too many on here re-writing history regarding Accorsi. His time as GM is very much a mixed bag, but he was right on Eli and TC. I hope we have a similar combination now.
Amen.
Also,comparing DG's 3 year term to date to the Steelers' last decade is a canard. It's too soon to even judge DG's 3 years. Which BTW look as good or better than the Steelers' past 3 years - which is also way too early to pass judgement on.
Sheesh.
then Coughlin came to town and in his first draft they took Snee and signed O'Hara in year 1, Mckenzie year 2. Reese I'm sure was involved in the Snee pick, plus the previous additions of Diehl/Seubert, but obviously that was an area where he did not succeed in reinvesting as well as Accorsi had done.
Accorsi's tenure was a mixed bag but at the end he left 3 legacies:
- Eli
- A top OL
- "you can never have enough pass rushers"
Reese contributed to building all 3 areas when he ran the drafts but after becoming GM but just didn't have good succession plans for reinvesting in any of those 3 areas.
If he'd traded up for Mahomes/Watson instead of taking Davis Webb, or rebuilt the OL better, or taken say TJ Watt/Donald instead of Engram/OBJ, he might still be GM today.