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Daniel Jones

M.S. : 9/20/2020 5:52 pm
I don't know about you guys, but this is not going to be a fun season watching our second year QB go through growing pains as he tries to figure out how to transform his game into winning football (along with the rest of team, now without Saquon Barkley.).

His fumble today looked like an exact replica of last season, and his INT was due primarily because he was a tick slow getting the ball out. Why? Because he held the ball too low and had to wind up before he could release it. That is a throwing style he reverts to on several occasions and it can only spell trouble (including more fumbles.)

In the end, he got the ball to the 15-yard line with ten seconds left in the game. That means two shots into the end zone. His 5-yard pass completion burning six seconds is not the answer. Big mistake right there.

He's got this season to figure it out. If he fails, I can see the Giants replacing him with Trevor Lawrence, which would be pretty easy to do when we're picking #1.

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RE: I know this will get an angry response  
GoDeep13 : 9/20/2020 7:10 pm : link
In comment 14979000 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
But I actually think it is better for Jones development that Saquon is out. When Barkley is in, the Giants offense basically revolves around him. Now I think it will be all on Jones and that will help him in the long run.

Turnovers are a concern but I still see him as the QB of the future
I agree with your point about the offense. I think it plays strongly in the reason Saquon is so easily contained. When Saquon is in, it’s like the play calling has tunnel vision. Whenever he’s out the offense is mode scheme driven. Which helps.
Why even talk about Lawrence  
Bleedblue10 : 9/20/2020 7:13 pm : link
By the logic on this board he won’t be good enough either. Young QBs need time to develop. If we can’t even give our guy a full seasons worth of games before we want him out why even draft another one. Hey I have an idea, let’s dump the qb all together and run the wildcat!! How’s that sound? Some of you guys are too much
RE: RE: RE: RE: why?  
giantsFC : 9/20/2020 7:33 pm : link
In comment 14979156 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 14979084 giantsFC said:


Quote:


In comment 14979058 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 14979050 giantsFC said:


Quote:


because its real? Makes sense? Would be ideal? Sorry I am bashing a favorite player of yours. Life be like that.



there is a strong chance he will wind up as a mediocre starter. His start to 2020 is not a good sign. But there is still some upside to this kid. I don't think we know yet what his ceiling is.



true. I'm just done with so many fails. So many "just give this player time"

They have all been busts the last 5 years. Almost every player drafted high on this team has.

And the FO has not drafted a player the experts, giants fans, and fans of other teams expected to draft in that span.

Its just a sign of massive futility. And its tiring to see the blind defending and attacking any who criticize.



I hearya. I understand the frustration. But this is the position we are in. We need to see what he is. If Jones doesn't progress this season, I would agree we might need to consider he is not the answer.


If he looks great going forward so be it. Team won't have the first pick anyway. But if he continues to struggle, I think we'll see a huge correlation to zero wins.
RE: FC  
giantsFC : 9/20/2020 7:36 pm : link
In comment 14979166 mpinmaine said:
Quote:
you are upset cus he fumbled and we lost.
you are a crybaby.
let it out...it's ok..there there now..

we all hate the losing. give the qb the season ..and the coach....

in the meantime lick your wounds, we have another game sunday


you know the thoughts of fans and front office staff like yours is how we wound up here in groundhog day.

It will get better, just give it time-2013
Still too soon to tell...  
trueblueinpw : 9/20/2020 7:44 pm : link
On the one hand, you gotta worry about the turn overs. On the other hand he had the Giants in a position to win today at the end of the game. On the other hand, they didn’t win.

I didn’t think Jones looked great today, nor did I expect him to be great. What I did expect from Jones today was that he protect the football and once again he failed to do this.

One thing that’s starting to emerge is that we’re lowering our expectations of Jones. I think we know he isn’t going to be Mahomes. Or Russell Wilson. What are we hoping for now then? Tony Romo? Steve Young? Dave Brown? Idk...

So it’s still too soon to tell but with every passing week and every turn over and every loss I feel like the ceiling for Jones is getting a little lower.

RE: Still too soon to tell...  
Producer : 9/20/2020 7:47 pm : link
In comment 14979244 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
On the one hand, you gotta worry about the turn overs. On the other hand he had the Giants in a position to win today at the end of the game. On the other hand, they didn’t win.

I didn’t think Jones looked great today, nor did I expect him to be great. What I did expect from Jones today was that he protect the football and once again he failed to do this.

One thing that’s starting to emerge is that we’re lowering our expectations of Jones. I think we know he isn’t going to be Mahomes. Or Russell Wilson. What are we hoping for now then? Tony Romo? Steve Young? Dave Brown? Idk...

So it’s still too soon to tell but with every passing week and every turn over and every loss I feel like the ceiling for Jones is getting a little lower.


Steve Young? You have him between Dave Brown and Tony Romo? You now Steve Young is one of the best QBs ever to play, right? It's ok I already know Daniel Jones is not Steve Young.
RE: Still too soon to tell...  
Angel Eyes : 9/20/2020 7:48 pm : link
In comment 14979244 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
On the one hand, you gotta worry about the turn overs. On the other hand he had the Giants in a position to win today at the end of the game. On the other hand, they didn’t win.

I didn’t think Jones looked great today, nor did I expect him to be great. What I did expect from Jones today was that he protect the football and once again he failed to do this.

One thing that’s starting to emerge is that we’re lowering our expectations of Jones. I think we know he isn’t going to be Mahomes. Or Russell Wilson. What are we hoping for now then? Tony Romo? Steve Young? Dave Brown? Idk...

So it’s still too soon to tell but with every passing week and every turn over and every loss I feel like the ceiling for Jones is getting a little lower.

Maybe to improve fumbles try the old-fashioned way, that is give him a ball and have him take it everywhere he goes: to his bed, the bathroom, shower with it, etc.
RE: RE: Still too soon to tell...  
trueblueinpw : 9/20/2020 8:11 pm : link
In comment 14979251 Producer said:
Quote:
Steve Young? You have him between Dave Brown and Tony Romo? You now Steve Young is one of the best QBs ever to play, right? It's ok I already know Daniel Jones is not Steve Young.


Ha! Yeah...I know.
DG was right about one thing  
US1 Giants : 9/20/2020 8:23 pm : link
Picking the wrong QB that high is a 5 year mistake. You have to believe in him and be patient because he was draft so high.
At the end of Eli's 3rd full season .....  
Tom in NY : 9/20/2020 9:01 pm : link
....we still didn't know if he was "the guy."

Tom Brady (and NO, I'm not comparing Jones to Brady) didn't even play until his 3rd season.

Going back in time, Phil Simms was heckled all the way through the '86 season (his 7th in the league), before winning the Super Bowl.

Jones, as with many teams, is making a transition to a new coaching staff & system, with NO OTAs, NO preseason games, and only 14 training camp practices.

Let's enjoy that in his 14th start he is showing toughness, accuracy, and the ability to overcome the loss of 2 of his major weapons.

I am more encouraged than discouraged thus far, and am looking forward to him taking the next step over the next 14 games.
RE: RE: RE: RE: why?  
Scooter185 : 9/20/2020 10:00 pm : link
In comment 14979156 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 14979084 giantsFC said:


Quote:


In comment 14979058 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 14979050 giantsFC said:


Quote:


because its real? Makes sense? Would be ideal? Sorry I am bashing a favorite player of yours. Life be like that.



there is a strong chance he will wind up as a mediocre starter. His start to 2020 is not a good sign. But there is still some upside to this kid. I don't think we know yet what his ceiling is.



true. I'm just done with so many fails. So many "just give this player time"

They have all been busts the last 5 years. Almost every player drafted high on this team has.

And the FO has not drafted a player the experts, giants fans, and fans of other teams expected to draft in that span.

Its just a sign of massive futility. And its tiring to see the blind defending and attacking any who criticize.



I hearya. I understand the frustration. But this is the position we are in. We need to see what he is. If Jones doesn't progress this season, I would agree we might need to consider he is not the answer.


As I said at the end of last year, with the pressure on the organization this is a make or break year for Jones. If he doesn't take a big step forward the Giants are in trouble and need to seriously consider moving in another direction.
I think they need to let him use his legs more too....  
Simms11 : 9/20/2020 10:05 pm : link
If he doesn't see anything, tuck it and get some yardage. Use his mobility to keep the Defense honest. They didn't have to worry about Eli running, but DJ has some wheels.
If we earn the No. 1 pick  
JoeyBigBlue : 9/20/2020 10:06 pm : link
Then Daniel Jones sucked. Fire Gettleman, let Judge pick his GM and draft Trevor Lawrence. There’s no ands, if, or buts. That’s the route you go.
In Elis 4th year  
nygiants16 : 9/20/2020 10:10 pm : link
He was struggling in the middle of the seaaom and there was talk of getting rid of him..

In 2011 there were people hoping the giants did not make thebplayoffs because they thought they would lose 1st round...

People are going to complain until they see it, many see thr glass half full at all times until it happens, nothing anyonr says will change their mind..
I just watched the whole game again  
Essex : 9/20/2020 10:16 pm : link
not sure what Jones did wrong except the fumble. His throws were most only target. He got let down by his receivers/te. He had three or four key drops or miscues by by that group on third down. Shepard on the first drive of the game missed a gimme. Engram fell down on the INT and then dropped the wide open ball on third down after we picked the ball off in their territory forcing us to take a FG. Ratley dropped a ball inside the five.

Jones did not have many difficult throws to make today, but when he needed to make big throws he got it there. The toss to dion lewis on the TD drive on third down was great. The fourth down pass to Dion Lewis where he aimed the ball down was a really nice throw in a big pressure situation. ]

Look, Jones has to be aware of Quinn on that strip sack, but I thought he played a good game today and see no reason to deviate from our plans with him. If anything, we completely overrate guys like Shepard and Engram. They are just not big time players and I think our record and their performances while here demonstrate that.
RE: In Elis 4th year  
nygiants16 : 9/20/2020 10:18 pm : link
In comment 14979534 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
He was struggling in the middle of the seaaom and there was talk of getting rid of him..

In 2011 there were people hoping the giants did not make thebplayoffs because they thought they would lose 1st round...

People are going to complain until they see it, many see thr glass half full at all times until it happens, nothing anyonr says will change their mind..


Glass half empty that should say
RE: I think they need to let him use his legs more too....  
SteelGiant : 9/20/2020 10:51 pm : link
In comment 14979528 Simms11 said:
Quote:
If he doesn't see anything, tuck it and get some yardage. Use his mobility to keep the Defense honest. They didn't have to worry about Eli running, but DJ has some wheels.


THIS !!!!!

This the answer which is exactly what I said to my brother. The kid has internal clock issues that he needs to work but having legs is the best solution. He should be told that if your arm with the ball, Time is up, tuck it an run it. If the guy is that close and gets to you its called taking a sack, but if you get away your gaining some yardage back. The more he does that he will eventually get the timing down and extend the play. You saw that today when he scrambled and flipped to Lewis.
RE: DG was right about one thing  
madeinstars : 9/21/2020 2:41 am : link
In comment 14979345 US1 Giants said:
Quote:
Picking the wrong QB that high is a 5 year mistake. You have to believe in him and be patient because he was draft so high.


Unless you are smart, like the Cardinals, and just draft a better QB.
Yep, Engram slipped on the Jones INT  
M.S. : 9/21/2020 8:22 am : link

But watch Daniel Jones winding up to throw the ball 10 or 15 yards downfield.

Especially at that distance, the ball should come out real fast, like a dart, which means he needs to hold the ball higher up. That will also help protect the ball from being swatted away.
I still like DJ  
LG in NYC : 9/21/2020 8:26 am : link
The fumbles are starting to make me weary... but overall enough there seems to be something special with him that I would like to see take shape in a Giants uniform.

I agree with those questioning why we don't do more with his athleticism/mobility. especially with this O Line.
If he's "special", turn him loose  
HomerJones45 : 9/21/2020 8:35 am : link
center the offense around him, open up the playbook, throw the ball downfield, attack the middle of the field, put the ball in his hands and let him make plays.

And if they won't do that, they've decided he's not that special and they have super Case Keenum or Ryan Tannehill v2. That appears to be what our past two opponents have decided he is. Show them they are wrong.
The comparisons to Eli are asinine. After his 3rd year it was obvious  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/21/2020 9:06 am : link
he was the guy, at least to me, but there are some people out there unless you are throwing for 4000 yards 30+ tds without considering the situation around you is asinine. Or what they are showing you year to year.

It used to be obvious after 3 years if the QB is the guy, now it's more like 2 if he plays. This year is tough because it was such a weird offseason, but by season's end we should know. If he's the guy moving forward we certainly won't finish with the number 1 pick so that Trevor Lawrence argument is moot.

DJ looks much better this year already, and that mostly stems from it being noticeable doing a better job protecting the ball in the pocket and feeling pressure a touch better. You can only work on so much every year. Wait until we play some shitty defenses and our offensive line gets some time to get its shit together with a center that is going to have growing pains combined with a 2nd year QB calling protections. The numbers will be there.
The turnovers are really starting to get  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/21/2020 9:07 am : link
out of hand.
And about that last 10 seconds  
M.S. : 9/21/2020 9:10 am : link
One mo' time.

There is one, and only one, sequence of plays that must be run from the 15-yard line.

The QB is to look for a specific quick bang-bang route in the end zone and throw it to THAT receiver. If it's not there, immediate toss it out of bounds.

That leaves the team with one more shot into the end zone.

But running off six seconds for a 5-yard completion to the 10-yard line is a no-no.

If that isn't Daniel Jones' mistake, than it is Jason Garrett's mistake.

But make no mistake about it.

It is an f-ing mistake.

The biggest issue with our mouthbreather fans is that, like Eli,  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/21/2020 9:10 am : link
Daniel Jones is a pocket passer first. Those guys take longer to develop, but when they get it, it's much better than the guys that rely on their legs instead of learning how to read NFL defenses.

RE: The turnovers are really starting to get  
nygiants16 : 9/21/2020 9:10 am : link
In comment 14979828 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
out of hand.


I agree but he took care of the football the rest of the way with zero running game..

No threat of a running game and he drove the team down the field, if slayton doesnt drop that pass giants probably win..

Oline held up as well
RE: The turnovers are really starting to get  
Essex : 9/21/2020 9:14 am : link
In comment 14979828 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
out of hand.

He got strip sacked and Engram fell down after he threw the ball. You can say that well it furthers the pattern, but these were not egregious turnovers
HJ45  
LG in NYC : 9/21/2020 9:15 am : link
I would argue they already have done that.

The offense is pass heavy and Jones is throwing the ball downfield/middle of field. This is no dink and dunk offense.
The first 2 games have been underwhelming in terms of overall yardage and TD's but the kid was throwing it all over the place last year so he is certainly capable.
RE: HJ45  
Greg from LI : 9/21/2020 9:18 am : link
In comment 14979848 LG in NYC said:
Quote:
The offense is pass heavy and Jones is throwing the ball downfield/middle of field. This is no dink and dunk offense.


Did they even attempt a pass further than maybe 15 yards downfield yesterday? Off the top of my head, I don't remember any.
RE: And about that last 10 seconds  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/21/2020 9:20 am : link
In comment 14979834 M.S. said:
Quote:
One mo' time.

There is one, and only one, sequence of plays that must be run from the 15-yard line.

The QB is to look for a specific quick bang-bang route in the end zone and throw it to THAT receiver. If it's not there, immediate toss it out of bounds.

That leaves the team with one more shot into the end zone.

But running off six seconds for a 5-yard completion to the 10-yard line is a no-no.

If that isn't Daniel Jones' mistake, than it is Jason Garrett's mistake.

But make no mistake about it.

It is an f-ing mistake.



Why is this being bandied about as if it is fact? There is not a clear-cut answer on the right way to handle that sequence - and what is certain is there is not "one and only one way to handle it". The chance of converting from the 10 vs. the 15 gives you between 8-10 percentage points of an advantage. That's not insignificant.

In addition, we have sequences just from games in the first two weeks where teams cut the distance to get a TD instead of going for the chunk play. I saw two times that was successful and two times it didn't work - one being the Giants - and the other being the Pats. They went short from the 13 last night.

But passing off the idea that cutting the distance down wasn't only a mistake, but a grave mistake because there is only one solution is really foolish, a foolishness you continually exhibit with hindsight.
RE: RE: HJ45  
Essex : 9/21/2020 9:24 am : link
In comment 14979858 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14979848 LG in NYC said:


Quote:


The offense is pass heavy and Jones is throwing the ball downfield/middle of field. This is no dink and dunk offense.

The one Ratley dropped was about 20 yards in the air and he dropped it at the five yard line. Jones also made two nifty throws to Lewis, the toss on the TD drive on third down and the fourth down he basically threaded the needle by aiming down to Lewis. I thought Daniel jones was good yesterday and besides the strip sack I don't really have a complaint.



Did they even attempt a pass further than maybe 15 yards downfield yesterday? Off the top of my head, I don't remember any.
RE: RE: HJ45  
Essex : 9/21/2020 9:25 am : link
In comment 14979858 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14979848 LG in NYC said:


Quote:


The offense is pass heavy and Jones is throwing the ball downfield/middle of field. This is no dink and dunk offense.



Did they even attempt a pass further than maybe 15 yards downfield yesterday? Off the top of my head, I don't remember any.


The one Ratley dropped was about 20 yards in the air and he dropped it at the five yard line. Jones also made two nifty throws to Lewis, the toss on the TD drive on third down and the fourth down he basically threaded the needle by aiming down to Lewis. I thought Daniel jones was good yesterday and besides the strip sack I don't really have a complaint.
My biggest worry with Jones  
liteamorn : 9/21/2020 9:26 am : link
Was that he was going to turn into another David Carr, first round pick had all the expectations but he got hit so much that he got punch drunk back there (behind the line) after a while, all the defenders had to do was yell "LOOK OUT" and he was ducking.
His table just got a little fuller now , when he's on he's dead on . His mistakes are glaring right now , his receivers don't scare anyone and now his best weapon is out . Our line better learn how to give him some time or else...LOOK OUT!!
RE: RE: And about that last 10 seconds  
M.S. : 9/21/2020 9:27 am : link
In comment 14979863 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14979834 M.S. said:


Quote:


One mo' time.

There is one, and only one, sequence of plays that must be run from the 15-yard line.

The QB is to look for a specific quick bang-bang route in the end zone and throw it to THAT receiver. If it's not there, immediate toss it out of bounds.

That leaves the team with one more shot into the end zone.

But running off six seconds for a 5-yard completion to the 10-yard line is a no-no.

If that isn't Daniel Jones' mistake, than it is Jason Garrett's mistake.

But make no mistake about it.

It is an f-ing mistake.





Why is this being bandied about as if it is fact? There is not a clear-cut answer on the right way to handle that sequence - and what is certain is there is not "one and only one way to handle it". The chance of converting from the 10 vs. the 15 gives you between 8-10 percentage points of an advantage. That's not insignificant.

In addition, we have sequences just from games in the first two weeks where teams cut the distance to get a TD instead of going for the chunk play. I saw two times that was successful and two times it didn't work - one being the Giants - and the other being the Pats. They went short from the 13 last night.

But passing off the idea that cutting the distance down wasn't only a mistake, but a grave mistake because there is only one solution is really foolish, a foolishness you continually exhibit with hindsight.

No hindsight about it. The book play is two shots into the end zone. I put zero stock in the percentages you site. If nothing else, it doesn't take into account the probability of scoring a TD had the ball been thrown into the end zone twice, not once.
Greg  
LG in NYC : 9/21/2020 9:29 am : link
Less than we typically see.

He is usually good for a few shots to Slayton down the field.

Not so much yesterday,
RE: RE: And about that last 10 seconds  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/21/2020 9:31 am : link
In comment 14979863 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14979834 M.S. said:


Quote:



Why is this being bandied about as if it is fact? There is not a clear-cut answer on the right way to handle that sequence - and what is certain is there is not "one and only one way to handle it". The chance of converting from the 10 vs. the 15 gives you between 8-10 percentage points of an advantage. That's not insignificant.

In addition, we have sequences just from games in the first two weeks where teams cut the distance to get a TD instead of going for the chunk play. I saw two times that was successful and two times it didn't work - one being the Giants - and the other being the Pats. They went short from the 13 last night.

But passing off the idea that cutting the distance down wasn't only a mistake, but a grave mistake because there is only one solution is really foolish, a foolishness you continually exhibit with hindsight.


Well I was with you that I thought it was asinine that it was being bandied about as fact, but where did you get 8-10 percentage points? Depending on the odds from the scoring from the 15 it may become clear.

Even without the numbers it has to be close and I'd say that picking up the 5 seems like it would be the slightly better choice.

Of course we have a ton of idiots that act like we live in this black and white world that if it's not right, it's wrong. If it doesn't work, it was the wrong decision. I seriously wonder how these people function in their day to day lives unless they were able to become engineers or something like that where there is clearly one "right" decision.
How the fuck..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/21/2020 9:35 am : link
would you know what the "book play" is. Did BB throw out the book last night in a similar situation??

Let me guess - if Jones throws an INT on the first play going to the end zone, we are asking why we didn't get closer as well as have a referendum on his poor ball security, right?

the math doesn't bear that this situation is clear cut, even if you foolishly will keep ranting about it
The issues with the numbers is that you can't just take all plays  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/21/2020 9:35 am : link
from the 15 either. The only plays you can take are situatioins where its TD or bust. Picking up the five there opens up inside routes big time. If people are harping on this shit I'm pretty confident they never played football on any level and if they did it had to be on the line or something. To me its so unbelievable obvious the advantages of running a play from the 10 as opposed to the 15. Do you know how hard it is to score from the 15 when they only have to protect the goal line? Fucking hard and we don't have that big time red zone threat.

I have no problem with people having opinions, but digging into this drives me nuts.
RE: How the fuck..  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/21/2020 9:38 am : link
In comment 14979908 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
would you know what the "book play" is. Did BB throw out the book last night in a similar situation??

Let me guess - if Jones throws an INT on the first play going to the end zone, we are asking why we didn't get closer as well as have a referendum on his poor ball security, right?

the math doesn't bear that this situation is clear cut, even if you foolishly will keep ranting about it


This is the problem with the only analytics crew it doesn't take individual circumstances in account. We have zero big time redzone threat. If we had Mike Evans back there two shots may have been the right decision because he's going to take a ton of coverage sucked out or they'd go 1v1 where you go to him. That doesn't even account the chances that we only get one shot.
Zeke..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/21/2020 9:45 am : link
here's a little excerpt:
Quote:
It's somewhat surprising to see the significant increase in TD% when the offense is within the opponent's 10-yard line. This implies that there's something different about that last 10 yards It's possible that there's a psychological shift, providing a boost of adrenalin to the offense. A full investigation of that explanation is beyond the scope of this post, but might be worth revisiting in the future.

Of further note is the lack of improvement in a team's touchdown chances inside the red zone but outside the 10-yard line. This is in stark contrast to the dramatic ramp-up of TD% once a team reaches a first-and-goal scenario.

While the percentage of scoring as a whole is dramatically better with a goal to go scenario vs. being outside the 10-yard line, it is also moderately better in a single event. From the 10 yard line, the percentage of scoring a touchdown on one play is 14%. From the 15 yard line it is 6% and from the 20 yard line it is 4%.

For a full four down scenario it seems like there is indeed a bottleneck effect when a team gets ~15 yards away from a touchdown, likely due to the difficulty of getting a first down very close to the goal line. This bottleneck disappears once a team gets into a first-and-goal situation, possibly the result of a team's increased willingness to go for it on fourth and goal. So the next time your team has to settle for a field goal when they had first-and-10 from the 12, take a small comfort in knowing that they weren't in quite as good of a spot as it seemed.


That isn't a perfect look because it isn't just providing the percentages of scoring on a 4th down attempt or when the clock is running down - but the difference in A SINGLE EVENT is 8%.
RE: RE: How the fuck..  
M.S. : 9/21/2020 9:46 am : link
In comment 14979916 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14979908 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


would you know what the "book play" is. Did BB throw out the book last night in a similar situation??

Let me guess - if Jones throws an INT on the first play going to the end zone, we are asking why we didn't get closer as well as have a referendum on his poor ball security, right?

the math doesn't bear that this situation is clear cut, even if you foolishly will keep ranting about it



This is the problem with the only analytics crew it doesn't take individual circumstances in account. We have zero big time redzone threat. If we had Mike Evans back there two shots may have been the right decision because he's going to take a ton of coverage sucked out or they'd go 1v1 where you go to him. That doesn't even account the chances that we only get one shot.

Zeke -- you can disagree with my POV, but -- please -- do not label me part of the "analytics crew." It wasn't me who pulled out some stat about scoring TDs from the 15 vs the 10-yard line. I am using no stats whatsoever, just common sense that you take two shots into the end zone with 10 seconds left. The only stats I have is this: Two bites at the apple are better than one.
And I agree..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/21/2020 9:47 am : link
about the point of not taking into account the other circumstances.

What M.S. does is post in hindsight about what poor decisions have been made. You can make a case to go for the end zone twice or to lessen the distance, but in his world, there's only one right answer.

Hence words saying there is "one and only one way" to do this.

It is pure bullshit
He has to figure out a way to get the ball in the end zone  
arniefez : 9/21/2020 9:51 am : link
His team was clearly inferior in both games. But he had chances to to steal them and he got close but couldn't get the ball in the end zone. That's the next step for him in my opinion. Some QBs never figure it out. That's what made Eli great in the first 8 years of his career. He stole many games. Some of them on the biggest stage too.
So it's more than double, which in our circumstance would be  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/21/2020 9:59 am : link
more because we have no true redzone threat, and that doesn't equate to the fact that there is chance we only get one play!

I mean its pretty clear we made the RIGHT decision! But the difference between people like us and all these mouthbreathers is that I wouldn't harp on the fact if they had gone for it twice instead of what they did. These decisions need to be made in real time.

I know we live in a world where people dig into their side regardless of new information, this thread is just a microcosm of where we are at as society as a whole.
And Fatman I'm not surprised at those numbers at all, I think it would  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/21/2020 10:04 am : link
be obvious to people that are supposedly fans and have watched football for YEARS that would be the case, but maybe you needed to play to understand how much easier it is to score once you get inside the ten based on one play? Or even the difference between picking up a 4th and 10 vs 4th and 15 which gives you the advantage of having over the top.

Not against people having opinions, but it seems to be the dumbest among us that have zero ability to process information that seem to be the most certain. Dunning Kruger like you read about holy shit.
RE: Greg  
HomerJones45 : 9/21/2020 10:06 am : link
In comment 14979891 LG in NYC said:
Quote:
Less than we typically see.

He is usually good for a few shots to Slayton down the field.

Not so much yesterday,
6.6 yards per attempt last season. 6.4 so far this year- and that is with teams stacking the box to stop Barkley. Near the bottom of the pack last season in 20+ yard completions and 40+ completions. Teams have had a year to study film and plan accordingly. Jones will take an occasional deep shot to Slayton. Otherwise, it is dink and dunk. Teams will let him have as many 4 and 5 yard completions on the edge as he likes, compress the defense and force field goal attempt. How do you get to the 20 with the game on the line yesterday and not put the game in your 6th pick's hands and throw the fucking ball into the end zone?

Did you see what the Chargers did with Herbert yesterday against the World Champs? They let him play and attacked the middle of the field to the tune of 9+ yards an attempt. If you believe in the guy enough to spend the 6th pick on him, then turn him loose. They are playing him as though he is Case Keenum.
RE: So it's more than double, which in our circumstance would be  
HomerJones45 : 9/21/2020 10:13 am : link
In comment 14979982 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
more because we have no true redzone threat, and that doesn't equate to the fact that there is chance we only get one play!

I mean its pretty clear we made the RIGHT decision! But the difference between people like us and all these mouthbreathers is that I wouldn't harp on the fact if they had gone for it twice instead of what they did. These decisions need to be made in real time.

I know we live in a world where people dig into their side regardless of new information, this thread is just a microcosm of where we are at as society as a whole.
No mouthbreather, it is not "pretty clear" at all. No timeouts, game on the line, time for two more plays- let's throw a 5 yard pass to "get closer" instead of taking two and possibly three shots at the win. You act as though there was no cost to throwing a 5 yard sideline pass when there was a cost in time and opportunity.
Its not like the Giants were handcuffing Jones  
PatersonPlank : 9/21/2020 10:14 am : link
They have an offensive play, the Bears have a defense play, and Jones is job is to throw it to the right guy based on the play. If the D is dropping deep and giving the shorter pass, or shading inside and giving the outside routes, then its the QB's job to throw it to the open guy (or 1-on-1 guy).

Any QB will do the same. In fact the bad ones will try and force the ball into double coverage and get turnovers. No one told Jones not the throw it to the endzone, no one limited Jones scope.

If Hebert was throwing to the middle then that is what was open. Its likely the defense game planned for Tyrod, so they were less concerned with his arm and more with other things.

Jones is doing really well. The guy has a good future.
I’m really interested in reading Sy’s game recap  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 9/21/2020 10:16 am : link
as it pertains to DJ and the passing game. While the Bears defense might’ve become less aggressive, it certainly seems like Garrett made an adjustment to get the ball out of Jones’ hand faster. On the fumble, it definitely appears that he held the ball too long, but I don’t know what he saw. I feel like too many people are asking DJ to elevate beyond his surrounding cast (especially o-line). The overwhelming majority of the talented young QBs who played well in year two weren’t asked to elevate. They had good o-lines and talented receivers.

It’s early in the season and there’s a lot of time for growth, but I feel like the front office has failed Jones. I look back at how Accorsi/Coughlin supported Eli by making sure his protection was the most important thing. By the time Eli made his first opening day start, the org. had drafted Chris Snee and signed Shaun O’Hara and Kareem McKenzie. How can a franchise help DJ’s growth when they’re willing to roll out there with disasters at multiple o-line positions and TEs and RBs who can’t block? Bradberry and Martinez appear to be good players, but every penny the Giants had should’ve gone to protecting and uplifting DJ. If they did that and he fails, then that’s on him. Instead, the Giants will be in the position to possibly move on from DJ (logically so if it’s Trevor Lawrence) without ever giving him a real chance to succeed.
RE: RE: So it's more than double, which in our circumstance would be  
montanagiant : 9/21/2020 11:34 am : link
In comment 14980023 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 14979982 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


more because we have no true redzone threat, and that doesn't equate to the fact that there is chance we only get one play!

I mean its pretty clear we made the RIGHT decision! But the difference between people like us and all these mouthbreathers is that I wouldn't harp on the fact if they had gone for it twice instead of what they did. These decisions need to be made in real time.

I know we live in a world where people dig into their side regardless of new information, this thread is just a microcosm of where we are at as society as a whole.

No mouthbreather, it is not "pretty clear" at all. No timeouts, game on the line, time for two more plays- let's throw a 5 yard pass to "get closer" instead of taking two and possibly three shots at the win. You act as though there was no cost to throwing a 5 yard sideline pass when there was a cost in time and opportunity.

How does "Time" come into play if we all agree that the most you can get off are 2 plays which they did?

And "Opportunity" pales in comparison to the odds of making it within the 10 vs the 15
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