I don't know about you guys, but this is not going to be a fun season watching our second year QB go through growing pains as he tries to figure out how to transform his game into winning football (along with the rest of team, now without Saquon Barkley.).
His fumble today looked like an exact replica of last season, and his INT was due primarily because he was a tick slow getting the ball out. Why? Because he held the ball too low and had to wind up before he could release it. That is a throwing style he reverts to on several occasions and it can only spell trouble (including more fumbles.)
In the end, he got the ball to the 15-yard line with ten seconds left in the game. That means two shots into the end zone. His 5-yard pass completion burning six seconds is not the answer. Big mistake right there.
He's got this season to figure it out. If he fails, I can see the Giants replacing him with Trevor Lawrence, which would be pretty easy to do when we're picking #1.
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In comment 14979058 Producer said:
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In comment 14979050 giantsFC said:
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because its real? Makes sense? Would be ideal? Sorry I am bashing a favorite player of yours. Life be like that.
there is a strong chance he will wind up as a mediocre starter. His start to 2020 is not a good sign. But there is still some upside to this kid. I don't think we know yet what his ceiling is.
true. I'm just done with so many fails. So many "just give this player time"
They have all been busts the last 5 years. Almost every player drafted high on this team has.
And the FO has not drafted a player the experts, giants fans, and fans of other teams expected to draft in that span.
Its just a sign of massive futility. And its tiring to see the blind defending and attacking any who criticize.
I hearya. I understand the frustration. But this is the position we are in. We need to see what he is. If Jones doesn't progress this season, I would agree we might need to consider he is not the answer.
As I said at the end of last year, with the pressure on the organization this is a make or break year for Jones. If he doesn't take a big step forward the Giants are in trouble and need to seriously consider moving in another direction.
In 2011 there were people hoping the giants did not make thebplayoffs because they thought they would lose 1st round...
People are going to complain until they see it, many see thr glass half full at all times until it happens, nothing anyonr says will change their mind..
Jones did not have many difficult throws to make today, but when he needed to make big throws he got it there. The toss to dion lewis on the TD drive on third down was great. The fourth down pass to Dion Lewis where he aimed the ball down was a really nice throw in a big pressure situation. ]
Look, Jones has to be aware of Quinn on that strip sack, but I thought he played a good game today and see no reason to deviate from our plans with him. If anything, we completely overrate guys like Shepard and Engram. They are just not big time players and I think our record and their performances while here demonstrate that.
In 2011 there were people hoping the giants did not make thebplayoffs because they thought they would lose 1st round...
People are going to complain until they see it, many see thr glass half full at all times until it happens, nothing anyonr says will change their mind..
Glass half empty that should say
THIS !!!!!
This the answer which is exactly what I said to my brother. The kid has internal clock issues that he needs to work but having legs is the best solution. He should be told that if your arm with the ball, Time is up, tuck it an run it. If the guy is that close and gets to you its called taking a sack, but if you get away your gaining some yardage back. The more he does that he will eventually get the timing down and extend the play. You saw that today when he scrambled and flipped to Lewis.
Unless you are smart, like the Cardinals, and just draft a better QB.
But watch Daniel Jones winding up to throw the ball 10 or 15 yards downfield.
Especially at that distance, the ball should come out real fast, like a dart, which means he needs to hold the ball higher up. That will also help protect the ball from being swatted away.
I agree with those questioning why we don't do more with his athleticism/mobility. especially with this O Line.
And if they won't do that, they've decided he's not that special and they have super Case Keenum or Ryan Tannehill v2. That appears to be what our past two opponents have decided he is. Show them they are wrong.
It used to be obvious after 3 years if the QB is the guy, now it's more like 2 if he plays. This year is tough because it was such a weird offseason, but by season's end we should know. If he's the guy moving forward we certainly won't finish with the number 1 pick so that Trevor Lawrence argument is moot.
DJ looks much better this year already, and that mostly stems from it being noticeable doing a better job protecting the ball in the pocket and feeling pressure a touch better. You can only work on so much every year. Wait until we play some shitty defenses and our offensive line gets some time to get its shit together with a center that is going to have growing pains combined with a 2nd year QB calling protections. The numbers will be there.
There is one, and only one, sequence of plays that must be run from the 15-yard line.
The QB is to look for a specific quick bang-bang route in the end zone and throw it to THAT receiver. If it's not there, immediate toss it out of bounds.
That leaves the team with one more shot into the end zone.
But running off six seconds for a 5-yard completion to the 10-yard line is a no-no.
If that isn't Daniel Jones' mistake, than it is Jason Garrett's mistake.
But make no mistake about it.
It is an f-ing mistake.
I agree but he took care of the football the rest of the way with zero running game..
No threat of a running game and he drove the team down the field, if slayton doesnt drop that pass giants probably win..
Oline held up as well
He got strip sacked and Engram fell down after he threw the ball. You can say that well it furthers the pattern, but these were not egregious turnovers
The offense is pass heavy and Jones is throwing the ball downfield/middle of field. This is no dink and dunk offense.
The first 2 games have been underwhelming in terms of overall yardage and TD's but the kid was throwing it all over the place last year so he is certainly capable.
Did they even attempt a pass further than maybe 15 yards downfield yesterday? Off the top of my head, I don't remember any.
There is one, and only one, sequence of plays that must be run from the 15-yard line.
The QB is to look for a specific quick bang-bang route in the end zone and throw it to THAT receiver. If it's not there, immediate toss it out of bounds.
That leaves the team with one more shot into the end zone.
But running off six seconds for a 5-yard completion to the 10-yard line is a no-no.
If that isn't Daniel Jones' mistake, than it is Jason Garrett's mistake.
But make no mistake about it.
It is an f-ing mistake.
Why is this being bandied about as if it is fact? There is not a clear-cut answer on the right way to handle that sequence - and what is certain is there is not "one and only one way to handle it". The chance of converting from the 10 vs. the 15 gives you between 8-10 percentage points of an advantage. That's not insignificant.
In addition, we have sequences just from games in the first two weeks where teams cut the distance to get a TD instead of going for the chunk play. I saw two times that was successful and two times it didn't work - one being the Giants - and the other being the Pats. They went short from the 13 last night.
But passing off the idea that cutting the distance down wasn't only a mistake, but a grave mistake because there is only one solution is really foolish, a foolishness you continually exhibit with hindsight.
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The offense is pass heavy and Jones is throwing the ball downfield/middle of field. This is no dink and dunk offense.
The one Ratley dropped was about 20 yards in the air and he dropped it at the five yard line. Jones also made two nifty throws to Lewis, the toss on the TD drive on third down and the fourth down he basically threaded the needle by aiming down to Lewis. I thought Daniel jones was good yesterday and besides the strip sack I don't really have a complaint.
Did they even attempt a pass further than maybe 15 yards downfield yesterday? Off the top of my head, I don't remember any.
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The offense is pass heavy and Jones is throwing the ball downfield/middle of field. This is no dink and dunk offense.
Did they even attempt a pass further than maybe 15 yards downfield yesterday? Off the top of my head, I don't remember any.
The one Ratley dropped was about 20 yards in the air and he dropped it at the five yard line. Jones also made two nifty throws to Lewis, the toss on the TD drive on third down and the fourth down he basically threaded the needle by aiming down to Lewis. I thought Daniel jones was good yesterday and besides the strip sack I don't really have a complaint.
His table just got a little fuller now , when he's on he's dead on . His mistakes are glaring right now , his receivers don't scare anyone and now his best weapon is out . Our line better learn how to give him some time or else...LOOK OUT!!
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One mo' time.
There is one, and only one, sequence of plays that must be run from the 15-yard line.
The QB is to look for a specific quick bang-bang route in the end zone and throw it to THAT receiver. If it's not there, immediate toss it out of bounds.
That leaves the team with one more shot into the end zone.
But running off six seconds for a 5-yard completion to the 10-yard line is a no-no.
If that isn't Daniel Jones' mistake, than it is Jason Garrett's mistake.
But make no mistake about it.
It is an f-ing mistake.
Why is this being bandied about as if it is fact? There is not a clear-cut answer on the right way to handle that sequence - and what is certain is there is not "one and only one way to handle it". The chance of converting from the 10 vs. the 15 gives you between 8-10 percentage points of an advantage. That's not insignificant.
In addition, we have sequences just from games in the first two weeks where teams cut the distance to get a TD instead of going for the chunk play. I saw two times that was successful and two times it didn't work - one being the Giants - and the other being the Pats. They went short from the 13 last night.
But passing off the idea that cutting the distance down wasn't only a mistake, but a grave mistake because there is only one solution is really foolish, a foolishness you continually exhibit with hindsight.
No hindsight about it. The book play is two shots into the end zone. I put zero stock in the percentages you site. If nothing else, it doesn't take into account the probability of scoring a TD had the ball been thrown into the end zone twice, not once.
He is usually good for a few shots to Slayton down the field.
Not so much yesterday,
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Why is this being bandied about as if it is fact? There is not a clear-cut answer on the right way to handle that sequence - and what is certain is there is not "one and only one way to handle it". The chance of converting from the 10 vs. the 15 gives you between 8-10 percentage points of an advantage. That's not insignificant.
In addition, we have sequences just from games in the first two weeks where teams cut the distance to get a TD instead of going for the chunk play. I saw two times that was successful and two times it didn't work - one being the Giants - and the other being the Pats. They went short from the 13 last night.
But passing off the idea that cutting the distance down wasn't only a mistake, but a grave mistake because there is only one solution is really foolish, a foolishness you continually exhibit with hindsight.
Well I was with you that I thought it was asinine that it was being bandied about as fact, but where did you get 8-10 percentage points? Depending on the odds from the scoring from the 15 it may become clear.
Even without the numbers it has to be close and I'd say that picking up the 5 seems like it would be the slightly better choice.
Of course we have a ton of idiots that act like we live in this black and white world that if it's not right, it's wrong. If it doesn't work, it was the wrong decision. I seriously wonder how these people function in their day to day lives unless they were able to become engineers or something like that where there is clearly one "right" decision.
Let me guess - if Jones throws an INT on the first play going to the end zone, we are asking why we didn't get closer as well as have a referendum on his poor ball security, right?
the math doesn't bear that this situation is clear cut, even if you foolishly will keep ranting about it
I have no problem with people having opinions, but digging into this drives me nuts.
Let me guess - if Jones throws an INT on the first play going to the end zone, we are asking why we didn't get closer as well as have a referendum on his poor ball security, right?
the math doesn't bear that this situation is clear cut, even if you foolishly will keep ranting about it
This is the problem with the only analytics crew it doesn't take individual circumstances in account. We have zero big time redzone threat. If we had Mike Evans back there two shots may have been the right decision because he's going to take a ton of coverage sucked out or they'd go 1v1 where you go to him. That doesn't even account the chances that we only get one shot.
Of further note is the lack of improvement in a team's touchdown chances inside the red zone but outside the 10-yard line. This is in stark contrast to the dramatic ramp-up of TD% once a team reaches a first-and-goal scenario.
While the percentage of scoring as a whole is dramatically better with a goal to go scenario vs. being outside the 10-yard line, it is also moderately better in a single event. From the 10 yard line, the percentage of scoring a touchdown on one play is 14%. From the 15 yard line it is 6% and from the 20 yard line it is 4%.
For a full four down scenario it seems like there is indeed a bottleneck effect when a team gets ~15 yards away from a touchdown, likely due to the difficulty of getting a first down very close to the goal line. This bottleneck disappears once a team gets into a first-and-goal situation, possibly the result of a team's increased willingness to go for it on fourth and goal. So the next time your team has to settle for a field goal when they had first-and-10 from the 12, take a small comfort in knowing that they weren't in quite as good of a spot as it seemed.
That isn't a perfect look because it isn't just providing the percentages of scoring on a 4th down attempt or when the clock is running down - but the difference in A SINGLE EVENT is 8%.
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would you know what the "book play" is. Did BB throw out the book last night in a similar situation??
Let me guess - if Jones throws an INT on the first play going to the end zone, we are asking why we didn't get closer as well as have a referendum on his poor ball security, right?
the math doesn't bear that this situation is clear cut, even if you foolishly will keep ranting about it
This is the problem with the only analytics crew it doesn't take individual circumstances in account. We have zero big time redzone threat. If we had Mike Evans back there two shots may have been the right decision because he's going to take a ton of coverage sucked out or they'd go 1v1 where you go to him. That doesn't even account the chances that we only get one shot.
Zeke -- you can disagree with my POV, but -- please -- do not label me part of the "analytics crew." It wasn't me who pulled out some stat about scoring TDs from the 15 vs the 10-yard line. I am using no stats whatsoever, just common sense that you take two shots into the end zone with 10 seconds left. The only stats I have is this: Two bites at the apple are better than one.
What M.S. does is post in hindsight about what poor decisions have been made. You can make a case to go for the end zone twice or to lessen the distance, but in his world, there's only one right answer.
Hence words saying there is "one and only one way" to do this.
It is pure bullshit
I mean its pretty clear we made the RIGHT decision! But the difference between people like us and all these mouthbreathers is that I wouldn't harp on the fact if they had gone for it twice instead of what they did. These decisions need to be made in real time.
I know we live in a world where people dig into their side regardless of new information, this thread is just a microcosm of where we are at as society as a whole.
Not against people having opinions, but it seems to be the dumbest among us that have zero ability to process information that seem to be the most certain. Dunning Kruger like you read about holy shit.
He is usually good for a few shots to Slayton down the field.
Not so much yesterday,
Did you see what the Chargers did with Herbert yesterday against the World Champs? They let him play and attacked the middle of the field to the tune of 9+ yards an attempt. If you believe in the guy enough to spend the 6th pick on him, then turn him loose. They are playing him as though he is Case Keenum.
I mean its pretty clear we made the RIGHT decision! But the difference between people like us and all these mouthbreathers is that I wouldn't harp on the fact if they had gone for it twice instead of what they did. These decisions need to be made in real time.
I know we live in a world where people dig into their side regardless of new information, this thread is just a microcosm of where we are at as society as a whole.
Any QB will do the same. In fact the bad ones will try and force the ball into double coverage and get turnovers. No one told Jones not the throw it to the endzone, no one limited Jones scope.
If Hebert was throwing to the middle then that is what was open. Its likely the defense game planned for Tyrod, so they were less concerned with his arm and more with other things.
Jones is doing really well. The guy has a good future.
It’s early in the season and there’s a lot of time for growth, but I feel like the front office has failed Jones. I look back at how Accorsi/Coughlin supported Eli by making sure his protection was the most important thing. By the time Eli made his first opening day start, the org. had drafted Chris Snee and signed Shaun O’Hara and Kareem McKenzie. How can a franchise help DJ’s growth when they’re willing to roll out there with disasters at multiple o-line positions and TEs and RBs who can’t block? Bradberry and Martinez appear to be good players, but every penny the Giants had should’ve gone to protecting and uplifting DJ. If they did that and he fails, then that’s on him. Instead, the Giants will be in the position to possibly move on from DJ (logically so if it’s Trevor Lawrence) without ever giving him a real chance to succeed.
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more because we have no true redzone threat, and that doesn't equate to the fact that there is chance we only get one play!
I mean its pretty clear we made the RIGHT decision! But the difference between people like us and all these mouthbreathers is that I wouldn't harp on the fact if they had gone for it twice instead of what they did. These decisions need to be made in real time.
I know we live in a world where people dig into their side regardless of new information, this thread is just a microcosm of where we are at as society as a whole.
No mouthbreather, it is not "pretty clear" at all. No timeouts, game on the line, time for two more plays- let's throw a 5 yard pass to "get closer" instead of taking two and possibly three shots at the win. You act as though there was no cost to throwing a 5 yard sideline pass when there was a cost in time and opportunity.
How does "Time" come into play if we all agree that the most you can get off are 2 plays which they did?
And "Opportunity" pales in comparison to the odds of making it within the 10 vs the 15