A big positive for me - Joe Judge

not too many games where the team responded like that in the second half. Though they never have looked like that in the first half.

They will start winning when they are ready to. He alluded to the fact that the first 4 weeks are kind of like pre season for them. The schedule makers did them no favors.

there just not enough talent and that falls squarely on Gettleman and Mara for keeping him around.

Judge should pack Gettlemans bags, tell Mara to stay out of the GM search and hire the GM himself

Judge who has a say in picking the new GM and not the other way around.

but I am not that impressed so far. Talks a bit much for my liking but he is inheriting a bad roster.

I give them that.

The lack of talent falls squarely on DG.

In comment 14979092 Giantfan21 said:

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there just not enough talent and that falls squarely on Gettleman and Mara for keeping him around. Judge should pack Gettlemans bags, tell Mara to stay out of the GM search and hire the GM himself

Judge should absolutely have a say in who the next GM is. It’s about bringing in someone who has a shared philosophy and preferably someone who is also younger. I like Monti Ossenfort from TEN.

comes from the Belichick Saban tree and that has not been a good thing as far as success as a coach or GM after leaving BB.

I like Judge but no thanks on him essentially picking the GM. The guys connected to New England that have gone elsewhere as GM havent done well.

In comment 14979099 Sean said:

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In comment 14979092 Giantfan21 said: Quote: there just not enough talent and that falls squarely on Gettleman and Mara for keeping him around. Judge should pack Gettlemans bags, tell Mara to stay out of the GM search and hire the GM himself Judge should absolutely have a say in who the next GM is. It’s about bringing in someone who has a shared philosophy and preferably someone who is also younger. I like Monti Ossenfort from TEN.

You re not much of a glass is half full guy, are you?

The team just looks better overall. Doesn’t mean they will win x amount of games this year but to me they look better, mainly the front seven and OL. Today was brutal and I’m done with moral victories but key player development is happening here. It’s just hard to appreciate it right now.

I wish the last 8 years didn’t happen and we could just think today and going forward because it’s hard to be positive especially when most fans are so negative, but to me the past struggles are tainting the overall perception of this franchise. There’s such a dark cloud hanging over us. Judge really has to work Magic here.

In comment 14979100 MookGiants said:

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comes from the Belichick Saban tree and that has not been a good thing as far as success as a coach or GM after leaving BB. I like Judge but no thanks on him essentially picking the GM. The guys connected to New England that have gone elsewhere as GM havent done well.

IF the choice is Judge picking the next GM and it will be someone outside the organization who might have some fresh eyes and fresh ideas , or the other option is incompetent dufus MARA who likes to hire people he is familiar with who will keep his vision then give me Judge 100 times out of 100

This year especially for the record they had last year.

The 2 washington games Cleveland, Cinncy are winnable.
I put the bears in the winnable in the being of the year.
I hope they can win those and be competitive in the rest to give themselves A chance to steal 1 or 2 more.
5 to 6 wins to me is expectations anything above that is a good season below and we are back at square 1

In comment 14979100 MookGiants said:

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comes from the Belichick Saban tree and that has not been a good thing as far as success as a coach or GM after leaving BB. I like Judge but no thanks on him essentially picking the GM. The guys connected to New England that have gone elsewhere as GM havent done well.

Judge isn’t picking the GM here anyway but you’re reaching.

In comment 14979113 Giantfan21 said:

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In comment 14979100 MookGiants said: Quote: comes from the Belichick Saban tree and that has not been a good thing as far as success as a coach or GM after leaving BB. I like Judge but no thanks on him essentially picking the GM. The guys connected to New England that have gone elsewhere as GM havent done well. IF the choice is Judge picking the next GM and it will be someone outside the organization who might have some fresh eyes and fresh ideas , or the other option is incompetent dufus MARA who likes to hire people he is familiar with who will keep his vision then give me Judge 100 times out of 100

Fair. Im just not a fan whatsoever of hiring/firing GM and coach at different times. Gettleman didnt do much of anything to deserve staying on this year.

John Mara is a huge problem right now. He has beenna total train wreck for at least 5 years now. Any decision hes been involved in has not worked out well, lets hope Judge does.

If DG survives this trainwreck God help us all. After this year the Giants will have the worst record in the sport over his 3 years as GM

In comment 14979092 Giantfan21 said:

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there just not enough talent and that falls squarely on Gettleman and Mara for keeping him around. Judge should pack Gettlemans bags, tell Mara to stay out of the GM search and hire the GM himself

Agree 100%.

I really do feel like Judge is the guy, we've just got to get some more talent on this roster. I haven't felt that way about any of our coaches since Coughlin--not even during their very short honeymoon phases

which to me is reasonable, but many are losing their minds after they dropped hard fought games to superior opponents, the latter of which included significant injuries. I know "patience" is not what anyone wants to hear after the past few years. Yet, still...patience.

They block better. They rush the passer better. There are significantly fewer coverage breakdowns. They dont commit stupid penalties. 0-2 again sucks. But I just dont think this 0-2 is the same. Go ahead, beat your chest with tired platitudes if you want, I'm gonna make a conscious choice to see the positives.

That's becoming the norm in the NFL, but that doesn't mean Mara will adjust his archaic ways. We know Abrams will be the choice after a BS "search." Maybe we'll throw some more money at Ernie as an "advisor."

who never sniffed a HC gig. His team is 0-2 and has scored 29 points in two games. He talks a good game but what has he done that Shurmur or McAdoo weren't capable of doing.

are higher on Judge because he is better with the media than Shurmur and McAdoo. The results will eventually speak for themselves.

and I think Garrett deserves some credit for the job he’s done. Second straight week we had zero effective run game, then we lose Saquon this week too, and second straight week we came out of halftime playing better on offense and made a game out of it

Kind of a chicken salad out of chicken shit situation, but Garrett seems to be calling good games. We all know the turnovers are killing us, especially when the margin of error is so small

is the real deal. The team plays hard for 60 mins, shoes stamina at the end of games, and never quits. Thats a direct result of coaching. This team may not have been built correctly and may not have the talent to make the playoffs, but I’m already comfortable saying they made the right decision in their head coach.

In comment 14979151 HomerJones45 said:

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who never sniffed a HC gig. His team is 0-2 and has scored 29 points in two games. He talks a good game but what has he done that Shurmur or McAdoo weren't capable of doing.

That's fair, we are 0 and 2. But there's a "what" and a "how" component to all results. The "what" is straight forward, we're 0-2. But IMO the "how" component is promising. The roster talent is just as bad as I've ever seen, but Judge has gotten more out of them than I thought possible. The team seems motivated, they're not beating themselves, they're bouncing back from adversity, and they're staying competitive with team that are in a different weight class than them in terms of roster talent.

To me that says that Judge is the right person for the job, we've just got to get him some better players to work with.

What continues to jump out to me is the lack of talent. Look at WR - the Giants threw big $$$ at Golden Tate and Sterling Shepard. These were the guys they proactively brought in.

I am not trying to bash them. But are they ever open down the field? Does any D fear them in the least?

You should not have to spend big $$$ to get what Tate & Shepard give you. The Giants basically planned on these 2 slot WRs being their starting WRs and got lucky with Slayton, who isn't a #1 himself right now.

These types of situations are playing out up and down the roster. Nobody is winning games with these guys right now.

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You re not much of a glass is half full guy, are you?

I think my thread is positive overall.

In comment 14979174 Shady Lurker said:

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In comment 14979151 HomerJones45 said: Quote: who never sniffed a HC gig. His team is 0-2 and has scored 29 points in two games. He talks a good game but what has he done that Shurmur or McAdoo weren't capable of doing. That's fair, we are 0 and 2. But there's a "what" and a "how" component to all results. The "what" is straight forward, we're 0-2. But IMO the "how" component is promising. The roster talent is just as bad as I've ever seen, but Judge has gotten more out of them than I thought possible. The team seems motivated, they're not beating themselves, they're bouncing back from adversity, and they're staying competitive with team that are in a different weight class than them in terms of roster talent. To me that says that Judge is the right person for the job, we've just got to get him some better players to work with.

McAdoo gets us to the playoffs and we are flat in that game. They come out on Sunday night against Dallas and they were just so flat with no energy. Shurmer's teams just gave up either bad play calling or they could not execute. This year we are seeing the adjustments throughout the game. They are moving the ball by converting on 3rd downs. Yes they still have a way to go but I liked their fight today which is coming from coaching.

I’d rather keep Gettleman than blow this up again. I like Judge and I feel you are overstating the GM/HC needing to be hired in sync. It doesn’t happen that way in the NFL.

Blowing this up every year will just keep setting us back. We are coming off back to back coaches who didn’t exceed two seasons. Judge is here for a while, you need to accept that.

I haven't seen much from the defense to make me think Graham is a long term answer.

If the defense is built around the DL, they need to stop getting steamrolled in the run game.

It is very early. Losing gets old and in NY the press will get on you quick. I want to see improvement through the season. What we should be looking for are signs. To me this year a very good sign is getting a winning record division wise. Anything less than 3-3 I will be concerned. One win or 0 wins in division I am very worried.

In comment 14979194 Sean said:

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Quote: You re not much of a glass is half full guy, are you? I think my thread is positive overall.

Sorry Sean, my post was meant for Socrates. My bad.

I think you are one of bbi s better posters.

In comment 14979093 Ben in Tampa said:

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Judge who has a say in picking the new GM and not the other way around.

THIS

3-13-1 his first year with a more talented team. A team with Lawrence Taylor and Harry Carson

In comment 14979240 GiantEgo said:

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3-13-1 his first year with a more talented team. A team with Lawrence Taylor and Harry Carson

Part of that was Parcells going with Scott Brunner as QB, he admits that was a mistake on his part.

In comment 14979217 joeinpa said:

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In comment 14979194 Sean said: Quote: Quote: You re not much of a glass is half full guy, are you? I think my thread is positive overall. Sorry Sean, my post was meant for Socrates. My bad. I think you are one of bbi s better posters.

I just find it hilarious that people can say that Judge has been a big positive when there has been absolutely zero evidence that he has been. Of course, he is new at this and can get better but I think it speaks more to how low the expectations are around here.

0-16, turnovers every game. He is a hard Jose no nonsense guy!

In comment 14979100 MookGiants said:

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comes from the Belichick Saban tree and that has not been a good thing as far as success as a coach or GM after leaving BB. I like Judge but no thanks on him essentially picking the GM. The guys connected to New England that have gone elsewhere as GM havent done well.

It’s a pretty lazy argument. There really haven’t been that many to call it some sort of death wish. He’s also the first STer iirc so we arent getting some hotshot coordinator.

The whole “tree” argument I find comical. Judge has had success wherever he goes and has climbed the ranks the old fashioned way. He’s got as good a chance as any up and coming HC (or better) to be successful.

It’s such a lazy narrative. Mook probably would also praise Andy Reid’s tree when we just came off of Shurmur.

Brian Flores looks good so far. Mangini actually did pretty well for the Jets. Mike Vrabel? Romeo Crennel went 10-6 with the Browns.

It’s just a really lazy argument as you said.

In comment 14979207 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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I haven't seen much from the defense to make me think Graham is a long term answer. If the defense is built around the DL, they need to stop getting steamrolled in the run game.

Graham has no pass rushers and no secondary. It's a tough position to be in.

He might not be the guy I'm jusf saying the d talent is really poor

First pick in the draft.

In comment 14979282 Jesse B said:

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In comment 14979207 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: I haven't seen much from the defense to make me think Graham is a long term answer. If the defense is built around the DL, they need to stop getting steamrolled in the run game. Graham has no pass rushers and no secondary. It's a tough position to be in. He might not be the guy I'm jusf saying the d talent is really poor

And whose fault is it that he doesn't have the right talent?

In comment 14979282 Jesse B said:

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In comment 14979207 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: I haven't seen much from the defense to make me think Graham is a long term answer. If the defense is built around the DL, they need to stop getting steamrolled in the run game. Graham has no pass rushers and no secondary. It's a tough position to be in. He might not be the guy I'm jusf saying the d talent is really poor

I guess I have a different perspective.

First, we gave up 14 pts at Chicago and played well vs Pitts until we tired in the 2nd half due to being on the field all the time.

Second we have some good players. Bradberry, Peppers, Logan are vets, plus good young guys like Love, Holmes, and maybe Ballentine. Our DL is young and tough, and is ranked highly, and I think the LB's have played better than expected. Martinez is good, Golden has player well, and Carter and X were around out there today too.

I think the D has done good.

In comment 14979280 Sean said:

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It’s such a lazy narrative. Mook probably would also praise Andy Reid’s tree when we just came off of Shurmur. Brian Flores looks good so far. Mangini actually did pretty well for the Jets. Mike Vrabel? Romeo Crennel went 10-6 with the Browns. It’s just a really lazy argument as you said.

Andy Reid's coaching tree has Doug Peterson, Ron Rivera and John Harbaugh.

2 of those 3 have won a Super Bowl. The other has been to one.

Not one of BB's assistants has even coached in a super bowl.

Have any of them besides Vrabel even coached in a title game?

BB's coaching tree has a lot of Pat Shurmur's on it as far as HC's go.

In comment 14979272 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 14979100 MookGiants said: Quote: comes from the Belichick Saban tree and that has not been a good thing as far as success as a coach or GM after leaving BB. I like Judge but no thanks on him essentially picking the GM. The guys connected to New England that have gone elsewhere as GM havent done well. It’s a pretty lazy argument. There really haven’t been that many to call it some sort of death wish. He’s also the first STer iirc so we arent getting some hotshot coordinator. The whole “tree” argument I find comical. Judge has had success wherever he goes and has climbed the ranks the old fashioned way. He’s got as good a chance as any up and coming HC (or better) to be successful.

There hasn't been that many?

Weis
Crennel
Mangini
McDaniels
Vrabel
Patricia (he gets my vote for worst coach in the league right now)
Bill O'Brien (on his way to getting fired)


The list of successful head coaches long term from the Belichick tree doesn't exist in the NFL. Vrabel has a chance.

I like Joe Judge, but to say the BB coaching tree being a disaster as head coaches is a lazy argument is asinine. Maybe Judge will be the exception, I hope he is. I do like that he's got a lot of experience with multiple positions and units.

I'm not sure how anybody can be positive about anything about this team right now.

1) Our franchise RB now has a torn ACL
2) Daniel Jones is still a question mark. He has not been good or bad so far
3) Still zero real difference makers on defense
4) The team is now battling the Jets, Detroit and Carolina for who will have the #1 pick.
5). Where is the winnable game on the schedule
6) We will be adding the NFL's worst record over the past 3 years

he’s been the HC for the Pats for what 21 years now? I’d actually think more of his staff would be HCs by now but there haven’t. But most of them have taken some really bad jobs and those teams didn’t win before or after the BB “tree” hire left the building.

Forgive me for not thinking they all suck because they didn’t turn around the Browns, Jets and Lions - 3 of the worst franchises of my lifetime.

but after today, less so. I HATE coaches who are in love with the 3 man rush on defense, absolutely brutal. Better offenses will shread that. I also don't like that they're not utilizing Jones mobility better.

the fact that they are consistently in the AFC championship game and Superbowl. They get less opportunities, and the ones that materialize for them by that point are often not as good.

is absolutely ridiculous. The argument is that if you coached with the the GOAT and an unprecedented organization you can't be successful? What could possibly be the reason for this? Before they leave do they feed them some kind of poor leadership/stupid pill that only they have? something in the water in Foxboro?

Or maybe each situation is different? toxic teams (Cle, Det). These broad statements are just silly

In comment 14979359 RollBlue said:

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but after today, less so. I HATE coaches who are in love with the 3 man rush on defense, absolutely brutal. Better offenses will shread that. I also don't like that they're not utilizing Jones mobility better.

Jones can run, they need to let him run more, but slide or run OOBs.

In comment 14979145 j_rud said:

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which to me is reasonable, but many are losing their minds after they dropped hard fought games to superior opponents, the latter of which included significant injuries. I know "patience" is not what anyone wants to hear after the past few years. Yet, still...patience. They block better. They rush the passer better. There are significantly fewer coverage breakdowns. They dont commit stupid penalties. 0-2 again sucks. But I just dont think this 0-2 is the same. Go ahead, beat your chest with tired platitudes if you want, I'm gonna make a conscious choice to see the positives.

Thank You j_rud, You saved me so much typing. The only thing I will add is this:
I think the very high hope Neanderthal fans just saw their hopes crushed when Barkley got hurt. The games that seemed as possible wins just got very gloomy quickly with no Barkley. The hills to climb just got twice as tall and they are already exhausted. They just cant see over the hill and their view of the big picture is tainted with their impatience.

I was born in 1980, so I was not around for the "dark ages" of the franchise. I do know that I am a very lucky football fan, there are so many fans of other storied franchises that do not have my experience. 86,90,07,11 = one Super Bowl for each decade of my life. So it's 2020, the way I look at it is the Giants have to win a Super Bowl by 2029 to keep that streak going. Building a Super Bowl team takes time and requires ability to overcome adversity as an ownership group, a staff, and as a fan.

Not being competitive sucks but you need to remind yourself about what the team looked like before they were great just as much as you remember seeing the Super Bowl celebrations. There was a lot of crappy football between those Super Bowls. I am liking what I see from Judge because I see our team competing which is more than I can say for the last couple years. I hope to see Judge improve this team by proving they can overcome some adversity. I hope this season ends with, "Man that sucks, could you imagine what we could be if we had SB right now."

I see improvement with this team and this team has its warts. Does the line improve, does the coverage improve, does pass rush improve, does the passing/running game improve. Maybe by the end of the year our backup running back is making positive yardage because our blocking has gotten better. If Judge is a good coach he will have that same attitude. You need to improve with the guys on the roster. That is where our recent past coaches all failed. It is the same reason why New England was so dominant when they got to the top of the mountain, they built a team and not a group of players.

In comment 14979205 Sean said:

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I’d rather keep Gettleman than blow this up again. I like Judge and I feel you are overstating the GM/HC needing to be hired in sync. It doesn’t happen that way in the NFL. Blowing this up every year will just keep setting us back. We are coming off back to back coaches who didn’t exceed two seasons. Judge is here for a while, you need to accept that.

Keeping Gettleman shouldn't even be an option. He's terrible at his job. He's 3 years into the job and the Giants coming in to today had at best the 3rd worst roster in the league.

Barring playoffs, he needs to go. And it would take the biggest miracle of all time for this team to make the playoffs. They could have 12 teams make it in the NFC and they wouldn't sniff making it.

I’m fine with that. But, I wouldn’t fire Judge a year in bc of a new GM.

In comment 14979344 UConn4523 said:

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he’s been the HC for the Pats for what 21 years now? I’d actually think more of his staff would be HCs by now but there haven’t. But most of them have taken some really bad jobs and those teams didn’t win before or after the BB “tree” hire left the building. Forgive me for not thinking they all suck because they didn’t turn around the Browns, Jets and Lions - 3 of the worst franchises of my lifetime.

Let's put it this way.

Which coordinators from BB's staffs in the last 21 years haven't been head coaches?

The answer to that question are two guys total in 21 years. Dean Peas.

I'm not saying they all suck, and I already said I liked Judge. But I'm certainly not giving any of them the power to pick the GM.

First and foremost, lets be real: this is a young team with a new HC and new systems all around. We faced two good teams in a row, both are 2-0 right now, and we played well enough in each to be competitive, perhaps even win if we had some breaks.

Jones turns the ball over a lot more than I'd hoped. He must stop that if we are to get on track. Dallas scored 40 with no OL today, albeit against a crap Falcons team.

Let's see if the team still fights when they are inevitably 0-5.

talent that the 2007 team had?

No

How did the 2007 team start out?

Yep 0-2 and if not for a Kavika Mitchell goal line stop 0-3. And that was with a talented team with a new DC.

My point, it takes time to learn the system and each other.

GM picks the coach or vice versa other than to say that when DG is gone you can’t possibly also hire a new HC as well. I think Judge should have some input, how much I don’t know.

But hey if the final 4/5 Reese years and 3 years of Gettelman haven’t produced how much worse can it be to allow Judge heavy input on the next GM? You already mentioned we’ve been a bottom 3 team for years now, that’s about as bad as it gets - if we were flat out the worst we’d be getting #1 picks and likely better by now because of it.

The only thing that has really surprised me about this team has been the inability to stop the run. Perhaps that's more of a reflection of our opponents but wow, I've been surprised how bad the run D has been.

The rest of the team has played as I expected. Jones is doing the best he can behind an erratic line but is still making the plays that lose games.

I still have confidence in Judge and his staff. But this was always a young team that was going to have trouble winning ball games.

and replaced by Hoss, as the last time we suffered a major injury to a star and DIDN’T IMMEDIATELY FALL APART. In fact, we continued to play hard. There’s something here with this guy albeit only 2 games. It’s palpable.

It’s cliched when someone says they’ve seen it all. I have for over 60 years of literally seeing it all with this team. There’s something here and it’s not a Kool-Aid opinion. It’s also not based on fact, just “experience” for whatever that is worth..

In comment 14979731 UConn4523 said:

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GM picks the coach or vice versa other than to say that when DG is gone you can’t possibly also hire a new HC as well. I think Judge should have some input, how much I don’t know. But hey if the final 4/5 Reese years and 3 years of Gettelman haven’t produced how much worse can it be to allow Judge heavy input on the next GM? You already mentioned we’ve been a bottom 3 team for years now, that’s about as bad as it gets - if we were flat out the worst we’d be getting #1 picks and likely better by now because of it.

Agreed. Judge was brought in here to build a program, and he’s doing it. There will be growing pains.

We can’t just keep resetting every 2 years with no coaching staffs as much as fans would love that. There will likely be a new GM next year, whoever that GM is I hope he has some ties to Judge.

In comment 14979725 section125 said:

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talent that the 2007 team had? No How did the 2007 team start out? Yep 0-2 and if not for a Kavika Mitchell goal line stop 0-3. And that was with a talented team with a new DC. My point, it takes time to learn the system and each other.

This team and the 2007 team are in completely different situations. This team has been trash for years. The 2007 team was coming off consecutive playoff appearances.

In comment 14979759 Heisenberg said:

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The only thing that has really surprised me about this team has been the inability to stop the run. Perhaps that's more of a reflection of our opponents but wow, I've been surprised how bad the run D has been.

it's been deflating. There's been a couple of times where a 3 and out would have given the team a lift and instead the other team is gashing us up the middle. Disappointing given the resources allocated to that spot.

does Vrabel get counted on the BB coaching tree?

He played for the Pats. He didn't coach there.

Is Jason Garrett from the Fassel coaching tree?

You have to give him a chance.

If the season continues in this manner and we are looking at a new GM for health and performance reasons, they have to consider a full tear down if the front office. Get new blood in there from the top down. Chris can go race horses full time.

But hopefully they show some improvement throughout the season where staying the course seems like the better decision

In comment 14979793 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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does Vrabel get counted on the BB coaching tree? He played for the Pats. He didn't coach there. Is Jason Garrett from the Fassel coaching tree?

Personally I find the whole coaching tree thing about as dumb a concept as there is in the NFL.

while small, the fact that after Saquon injury Joe Judge walked on the field to help carry him off was indicative of the coach we have. Not many times you see a coach do that.

In comment 14979807 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 14979793 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: does Vrabel get counted on the BB coaching tree? He played for the Pats. He didn't coach there. Is Jason Garrett from the Fassel coaching tree? Personally I find the whole coaching tree thing about as dumb a concept as there is in the NFL.

It's so stupid. It's actually a bad sign. Often decent head coaches getting awesome coaching out of their coordinators more like it leading to big seasons (Jim Fassel comes to mind). The BB coaching tree isn't good because he could have a bunch of scrubs coaching there and they'd still produce. It really has zero bearing on Joe Judge though because he was the special teams coach.

I will say that there may be something to some head coaches knowing how to hire.

the Steelers beat us with scheme. We are 0-2. I'm not saying Judge is the problem, but he's shown us nothing so far on the field.

He's at best a wait and see at this point. But there is still reason to be hopeful. There is just a tendency on this board to want to twist anything and everything they can into positives. Things like the team showing "fight" heard that a lot about Shurmurs teams too. I don't care about people's personal determinations of "fight" that's a really dumb variable to look at.

In comment 14980481 NoGainDayne said:

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the Steelers beat us with scheme. We are 0-2. I'm not saying Judge is the problem, but he's shown us nothing so far on the field. He's at best a wait and see at this point. But there is still reason to be hopeful. There is just a tendency on this board to want to twist anything and everything they can into positives. Things like the team showing "fight" heard that a lot about Shurmurs teams too. I don't care about people's personal determinations of "fight" that's a really dumb variable to look at.

Huh? The entire board thinks this will be no more than a 3 win team.

In comment 14980481 NoGainDayne said:

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the Steelers beat us with scheme. We are 0-2. I'm not saying Judge is the problem, but he's shown us nothing so far on the field. He's at best a wait and see at this point. But there is still reason to be hopeful. There is just a tendency on this board to want to twist anything and everything they can into positives. Things like the team showing "fight" heard that a lot about Shurmurs teams too. I don't care about people's personal determinations of "fight" that's a really dumb variable to look at.

Ehh, people can look at whatever they want. Just like you are claiming he's shown nothing and I think you are dead wrong on that.

He may end up being nothing as a HC. But I wouldn't bet on that, seems far too determined. And if you don't think we showed anything after Barkley went down then you are making up an argument just to argue.

And the Steelers beat us with scheme because their personnel allows them to. They had guys all over the field making plays at every level. If you won't concede that Tomlin has way more to work with than Judge then I really don't know what to tell you.

If Judge sucks he will be fired. Until then i'm excited as all hell that he's here and I have no reason not to be.

In comment 14980489 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 14980481 NoGainDayne said: Quote: the Steelers beat us with scheme. We are 0-2. I'm not saying Judge is the problem, but he's shown us nothing so far on the field. He's at best a wait and see at this point. But there is still reason to be hopeful. There is just a tendency on this board to want to twist anything and everything they can into positives. Things like the team showing "fight" heard that a lot about Shurmurs teams too. I don't care about people's personal determinations of "fight" that's a really dumb variable to look at. Huh? The entire board thinks this will be no more than a 3 win team.

You left out the other side that will attempt to spin anything into a negative. There are both negatives and positives each game, but I am not sure we are intelligent enough fans to know what they are, or we don't consider the possibility that we may be missing key details behind those positives and negatives.

In comment 14980508 crick n NC said:

Quote:

In comment 14980489 Sean said: Quote: In comment 14980481 NoGainDayne said: Quote: the Steelers beat us with scheme. We are 0-2. I'm not saying Judge is the problem, but he's shown us nothing so far on the field. He's at best a wait and see at this point. But there is still reason to be hopeful. There is just a tendency on this board to want to twist anything and everything they can into positives. Things like the team showing "fight" heard that a lot about Shurmurs teams too. I don't care about people's personal determinations of "fight" that's a really dumb variable to look at. Huh? The entire board thinks this will be no more than a 3 win team. You left out the other side that will attempt to spin anything into a negative. There are both negatives and positives each game, but I am not sure we are intelligent enough fans to know what they are, or we don't consider the possibility that we may be missing key details behind those positives and negatives.

Sean, I didn't mean to quote you. My response was to NoGayne.

this team has been horrible for a while and the worst team in the league for the last 3 and now going on 4 years. Nothing to spin, this team is really bad. And our management has been bad.

you made the statement that Judge hasn't show anything and my response was yesterday's 4th quarter. In 2 games he's shown me more than any point since 2016.

But hey, keep doing what you do. I'm well aware of our record the past few years - I don't care, I suspect Judge doesn't either.

In comment 14980515 NoGainDayne said:

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this team has been horrible for a while and the worst team in the league for the last 3 and now going on 4 years. Nothing to spin, this team is really bad. And our management has been bad.

Sure there are. There are always positives and negatives. We have to be willing to be honest with ourselves about each and not attempt to make them something they are not.

And again, we should probably consider that what we see during the game isn't always what it seems. Whether positive or negative.

Has there ever been a more difficult season to be a first time head coach? Not only was there no preseason, but there were fewer practices, and the ability to be in close proximinty with the players early on was absent. Meetings and evaluations were held over Zoom, players opted out, and coaches now also had to worry about testing protocols.

On top of that, the team has been dreadful for nearly a decade, they haven't been able to win the line of scrimmage in that point, and now the crown jewel of the offense tore his ACL in week 2.

This season is a wash for me-- I just want to see improvement and coalescence.

But I don't think you could have designed much of a harder situation for a first time head coach than Judge's current situation.

In comment 14980515 NoGainDayne said:

Quote:

this team has been horrible for a while and the worst team in the league for the last 3 and now going on 4 years. Nothing to spin, this team is really bad. And our management has been bad.

Of course there is spin. Hence making up shit about how the Giants lag behind everyone else in certain areas

Other than the team didn't quit. It is early in the season. Talk to me in 10 weeks.

In comment 14980536 PaulBlakeTSU said:

Quote:

Has there ever been a more difficult season to be a first time head coach? Not only was there no preseason, but there were fewer practices, and the ability to be in close proximinty with the players early on was absent. Meetings and evaluations were held over Zoom, players opted out, and coaches now also had to worry about testing protocols. On top of that, the team has been dreadful for nearly a decade, they haven't been able to win the line of scrimmage in that point, and now the crown jewel of the offense tore his ACL in week 2. This season is a wash for me-- I just want to see improvement and coalescence. But I don't think you could have designed much of a harder situation for a first time head coach than Judge's current situation.

Good post Paul. The thinking that I don't understand is labeling the factors that you listed as "excuses", when in reality I would consider those factors as reasons.

season started and I was was more excited about him than any Giants coach since Parcells. I've seen nothing to make me think that with a little help from the Mara's (might not be possible) and a little luck (out of his control) that he'll be a very good NFL HC.

The #1 thing he's going to need this year is some late game magic from his QB. Joe Judge and his QB for that matter are going to have the inferior roster in every game they coach/play this year.

Yesterday was exactly what I expected a winnable game but they didn't win. It was there for the taking at the end and the QB couldn't quite get it done. That's the next step for this year. Win a few of those.

good teams create their own luck, so I'm not terribly mad at it, but I would have loved if that 4th and 1 was correctly called and DJ got another couple of downs to play with.

He will get his opportunities, but that was such a gut punch as a far as watching the game goes. I don't understand why replay exists if something as critical as that isn't looked at.

and I'm not saying Judge has been in any way shape or form. I'm merely pointing out that I don't think you can point to him being a positive after two losses.

There is a difference between absolutely thinking Judge could be successful and acting like we've seen more than we actually have.

The following things we have seen to be true as Giants fans.

1) The Mara's care about what fans think

2) The Mara's view their own people generously and are too slow to change

As fans we really shouldn't be overly generous with our reads on the quality of people the Giants have in place. If there is a glimmer of hope of them making the real organizational changes we need to see if they continue to lose is if fans in droves are willing to demand those real changes like a GM outside the Giants family, dismissing Chris Mara, more hands off ownership in general, etc.

1) From day one, I have really liked what I have seen and heard from Judge.

2) Nothing in the last 2 weeks changed that. But, nothing also instilled any more confidence either. Right now, all I can say is I see things I like in terms of possible future success. Any hope I had of some miracle season (and for me that was 7-8 wins) is out the window.

3) I absolutely do NOT want Judge picking the next GM. I want a GM who is not beholden to the coach.

4) That said, I don't trust the organizational leadership to do a stellar job hiring the next GM, whenever that may be and I am not convinced it is happening any time soon. If anything, losing Barkley and perhaps Shepard buys DG more time.

I mean, barring some incredible turn of events this team is headed to another bad to middling season and enough is enough. This guy is a bad GM and really should be showed the door. In fact he probably should not have been hired.

As for the coaching staff, I am still optimistic about judge and generally like his hires however DC was always the questionable one, and so far is probably the one most likely to be considered a disappointment at the end of the season.
I liked Garrett but would really like to see a more creative offense than what we have seen through the first two games.

and he’s making proper game adjustments. Pointing to the Steelers confusing our offensive line in real time is asinine. I’m sure they were coaching these guys up but to make reads in real time takes practice. Jesus Christ some of the things I read here