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Why wouldn't Saquon return the same player next year?

CMicks3110 : 9/20/2020 10:50 pm
He's only 23, he is a tireless worker, and there is precedent for returning from ACL tears, its not a death sentence.

Hasn't iconic stars like Adrian Peterson, Frank Gore, Darrelle Revis all done it?

Everyone points to Sehorn, but Sehorn was older, and that was 23 years ago, modern medicine has gotten so much better since then.
Ge will be fine  
BleedBlue : 9/20/2020 10:53 pm : link
Only here on BBI do people panic and say career over.

Its fair to say it could slow his agility and speed sure, but he is going to bounce back and be a great back next year.


Im jus disappointed its week 2 and season is basically over with zero threat to do anything at RB
There is always a risk he doesn't  
BH28 : 9/20/2020 10:57 pm : link
People talk ACLs like it is auto recovery. It is still a major surgery and for every guy you listed who had success, there are even more who flamed out.

The only silver lining is that at least it happened early in the season so it has more recovery time before next year.
It's..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/20/2020 10:59 pm : link
mainly because people would rather use his injury as a referendum on selecting a RB instead of hoping he fully recovers.

Some have dug in so deeply on hating him as a pick, that they were posting while Barkley is still on the turf about how fragile he is, how bad of a pick he was, and how the GM should be fired. For reference, at least 8 posts said Gettleman should have been fired at halftime. I wish I was kidding.

He's a kid people should admire. And I'm guessing that the majority of the fanbase still does, but the vocal minority would have you believe he's a stiff. We just had a post from one guy calling him a china doll who is unremarkable even when he plays.
The only silver lining  
jnoble : 9/20/2020 11:00 pm : link
...and I admit this is sort of a stretch is that at least he won't have 14 more games worth of wear & tear on him on what's probably going to not be a playoff season
...  
christian : 9/20/2020 11:02 pm : link
Let’s see how severe the injury is. Tearing your ACL isn’t a career ending injury on its own.

The rough part is it’s just another prime year for Barkley down the drain.
Nothing  
pjcas18 : 9/20/2020 11:06 pm : link
is guaranteed with surgery.

ACL surgery is pretty routine these days, and he very weel may come back just as good or even better, but it's certainly possible he does not return as the same player.
Something else is the Giants get the #1 overall pick  
JonC : 9/20/2020 11:10 pm : link
wind up picking Lawrence and punting on Jones. DG would probably be gone and there would still be a roster in need of talent everywhere.
Nobody  
AcidTest : 9/20/2020 11:22 pm : link
knows whether he'll return to his former playing ability. He might. He might not. His talent is largely based on jump cuts, twists, and turns. Even a repaired ACL might not be able to handle that torque, or even if it can, he might still lose even enough ability to become a good, but no longer, great player.

As far as Jones is concerned, we need to see the rest of the season, but I'm inclined to stick with him even if we get the #1 pick. The NFL graveyard is littered with "can't miss" prospects, especially QBs. We'll know more at the end of the year.
Lateral stability  
Rico : 9/20/2020 11:26 pm : link
The ACL often gets torn in combo with the MCL (medial collateral ligament), which is key for lateral acceleration. Jump cutting is what Saquon does better than anyone, and that may not be the same after major reconstructive knee surgery.
Zeke Mowatt  
Rico : 9/20/2020 11:32 pm : link
Zeke is a good example of a guy who had knee surgery, and although his knee was fine (a friend of mine was his doc at HHS and assured me his knee was 100%), he never developed confidence in it and was never the same player again.

I'm not trying to be a downer. I'm just trying to answer the OP's question about why Saquon might not be the same.
If it's only an ACL then he should be the same  
sb from NYT Forum : 9/21/2020 12:34 am : link
Plenty of RBs have had ACL surgeries and came back. Especially if they are younger.

We all know Adrian Peterson.

But also Frank Gore tore his ACL twice before taking an NFL snap. How'd he turn out?

Garrison Hearst tore his ACL in college

Willis MgGahee tore his ACL in the NCAA National Championship Game.
RE: If it's only an ACL then he should be the same  
BH28 : 9/21/2020 12:48 am : link
In comment 14979662 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
Plenty of RBs have had ACL surgeries and came back. Especially if they are younger.

We all know Adrian Peterson.

But also Frank Gore tore his ACL twice before taking an NFL snap. How'd he turn out?

Garrison Hearst tore his ACL in college

Willis MgGahee tore his ACL in the NCAA National Championship Game.


Rashard Mendenhall, Kevin Smith, Ronnie Brown, Deuce McAllister, Edgerrin James, Terrell Davis, Jamal Anderson, etc, etc, etc never rebounded.

I hope Saquon rebounds to the player he was. But the guys you listed are the exception, not the rule. Hopefully due to his physical ability he's one of the exceptions. Even if he is one of the exceptions, he may get close to but never have the explosion he did before the injury, but due to his freakish skill that still may be good enough to perform and compete at the top level of his position.

Crazy to think about being that skilled that you lose a little off the top end and can still be one of the best in the league...

McAllister and James  
santacruzom : 9/21/2020 1:15 am : link
both recovered from their ACL tear fairly well actually. McAllister didn't recover from his second ACL tear, however, but he was in his late 20s by that point.

I do think there's reason to be concerned, for sure, but there's equal reason to believe it's possible for him to make a full recovery. My question is whether they pay his option. A smart GM probably wouldn't, but our GM probably would.
I said that if it's only an ACL tear  
sb from NYT Forum : 9/21/2020 1:16 am : link
...some of those guys you wrote about tore multiple ligaments and had cartilage damage (like Terrell Davis). Deuce McAllister had a 1000 yard season after his first ACL tear, but then tore the ACL in his other knee.

Also Edgerrin James had 5 straight 1100 rushing seasons after his ACL, including two 1500 yard seasons. Not sure why
sorry clicked submit too soon  
sb from NYT Forum : 9/21/2020 1:17 am : link
Was going to say I'm not sure why you referenced Edgerrin James as someone that never recovered from an ACL.
RE: sorry clicked submit too soon  
BH28 : 9/21/2020 1:44 am : link
In comment 14979677 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
Was going to say I'm not sure why you referenced Edgerrin James as someone that never recovered from an ACL.


I am going to say Edge is a tweener guy. Yes he gained a lot of yards post surgery, but most who watched him will say he was never the same post surgery. Which is scary to think what he could have been even gaining 10,000 yds post ACL.

And that very well could be the story with Saquon, still very productive, but not quite the same. I think back to the OP, it is not a guarantee he picks up where he left off.

And I think you still pick up the 5th year option, even if he struggles coming back next year. It is relatively cheap, gives him a 'prove it' year and if he has a really good 'prove it' year, great for us.



RE: The only silver lining  
regulator : 9/21/2020 4:45 am : link
In comment 14979588 jnoble said:
Quote:
...and I admit this is sort of a stretch is that at least he won't have 14 more games worth of wear & tear on him on what's probably going to not be a playoff season


Do you figure a blown-out knee and reconstructive surgery counts as wear-and-tear?

There’s no good way to slice or rationalize this one. It’s a devastating injury.
He already  
dank41 : 9/21/2020 6:12 am : link
didnt look the same after his last injury. This is worst case scenario considering where they drafted him.

The only silver lining I see is that his long term cost may have just came down.
Hard to be optimistic  
ShocktoBeck : 9/21/2020 6:47 am : link
I love Barkley, in particular for his personality (the anti-obj).

But at this point it appears while he’s an outstanding athlete, he’s just not built for a lasting NFL career:

- On his first, amazing season, he routinely was slow to get up after some tackles and was in obvious pain. I breathed a sigh of relief that he finished the season as I feared a bad injury.

- on his second season he gets hurt early, misses games and doesn’t come back the same.

- On his 3rd season he’s done for the season in the first half of the second game.

Some people are durable, some are not. His game is speed, cutting and turning, not a power back. An acl tear is harder on that than on straight line downhill running. It’s hard to envision him getting back psychologically and physically.

Plus - he’s got a bad Oline blocking for him. Can’t keep him clean and he takes a ton of hits BEFORE he has a chance to build steam, which means the impact on him is bigger (ask any back and they’ll tell you a hit in the backfield is way worse cause the defender hitting has the momentum, not the back being hit).

That’s not to say he can’t return. He may come back and be serviceable. But the rookie year Barkley is likely gone, and the Giants better plan accordingly. Where he was drafted is irrelevant.

Hard and bumming for sure, but reality unfortunately.
I  
Clintqb17 : 9/21/2020 6:59 am : link
Think he will be fine. Maybe this helps his career? He doesn’t go through a year of getting killed in the backfield.
Why wouldn't Saquon return the same player next year?  
averagejoe : 9/21/2020 7:49 am : link
Do we really want the same player next year ? His injury does not correct his flaws. Now people are saying he is not a 'power back'. That is not what they were saying when he was drafted number two. He was a RB that was explosive AND powerful - the generational guy. He is not that now. He is looking more like a scatback that can't block or run inside effectively. The Giant offense looked better yesterday without his TFL's. Flame away but I hope he is not the same player next year. He needs to improve.
The Giants..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/21/2020 7:56 am : link
offense looked better without him?? We scored 13 points. We still couldn't run the ball.

Man, when I hear Saquon called a scat-back I want to perform a PSA and urge some of you morons to go get an eye exam. You are likely going blind. If the tests show otherwise, get your cognitive abilities tested.
There is precedent for players returning  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/21/2020 7:59 am : link
There is precedent for players returning and not being the same player.

Using Adrian Peterson, one of the greatest exceptions to the norm in history, is probably not the safest bet.
RE: Lateral stability  
Big Blue '56 : 9/21/2020 8:21 am : link
In comment 14979619 Rico said:
Quote:
The ACL often gets torn in combo with the MCL (medial collateral ligament), which is key for lateral acceleration. Jump cutting is what Saquon does better than anyone, and that may not be the same after major reconstructive knee surgery.


My buddy Rico is pretty much on point. If it’s just an ACL he should be as good as new, imv. We won’t have to worry about him working hard in rehab, that’s a given for this young stud.
RE: The Giants..  
averagejoe : 9/21/2020 8:23 am : link
In comment 14979735 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
offense looked better without him?? We scored 13 points. We still couldn't run the ball.

Man, when I hear Saquon called a scat-back I want to perform a PSA and urge some of you morons to go get an eye exam. You are likely going blind. If the tests show otherwise, get your cognitive abilities tested.


Get off his dick fatman. He can't run inside.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/21/2020 8:36 am : link
Wow. Can't run inside.

Probably can't do anything but dance either, right? He's had two seasons over 1,000 - I'm assuming all those runs were outside?

Why not just say he sucks on Thursday too. Only 113 career yards on that day.

That's just as true as him being a scat-back. Idiot.
Barkley’s injuries are not a reason to fire Gettleman  
Mike from Ohio : 9/21/2020 8:46 am : link
But let’s stop pretending that firing Gettleman is some sort of fan over-reaction. The guy tore down this roster and rebuilt it over the last several years, and you can argue it isn’t any better then when he started.

They mentioned yesterday there are only four guys on the roster that pre-date DG. This is the team he built and it is bereft of talent up and down the roster. Arguing he has done a poor job constructing this roster is not some kind of extreme opinion.
You don't remember after OBJ got hurt  
GManinDC : 9/21/2020 8:49 am : link
the last 3 games how everyone was saying the offense was better without him???
The over-reaction..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/21/2020 8:49 am : link
is calling for him to be fired while Barkley is laying on the turf or that he should be fired because Barkley was injured.
When you read about ACL surgery, you wonder how anyone recovers  
GeofromNJ : 9/21/2020 8:55 am : link
Reconstruction of a complete ACL tear

The surgeon removes the damaged ligament and replaces it with a segment of tendon. The tendon comes from another part of the knee or a tendon from a deceased donor.

The surgeon drills sockets or tunnels into the thighbone and shinbone to accurately position the graft, which is then secured to the bones with screws or other fixation devices. The graft serves as scaffolding on which new ligament tissue can grow.

Patients go home the same day once they recover from the anesthesia. Within the first few weeks after surgery, the patient could regain a range of motion equal to that of their opposite knee. It may take eight to 12 months or more before athletes can return to their sport.
Lol can’t run inside....  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 9/21/2020 8:57 am : link
How the hell can he run inside when he’s getting decked in the backfield as soon as he’s handed the ball??

He can’t run inside because they have zero TE’s that can block, and zero speed on the outside at WR. These WR’s scare no one!!

SB is a fiery competitor, if it’s just his ACL he should return just as he was.

Who knows?  
Greg from LI : 9/21/2020 8:58 am : link
Some guys bounce right back. Others, like Steve Smith, have one knee injury and then that's it for them. Time will tell.
And expecting logical, measured reactions  
Mike from Ohio : 9/21/2020 9:00 am : link
on a BBI game thread is silly. Those are emotional reactions stemming from frustration. He was drafted to be a building block for this team and it is starting to look like that may not come to pass given two of his three seasons have been wrecked by injury.

Fair or not, Gettleman is tied to Barkley’s future with this team. We all hope he comes back and becomes the weapon we all hoped he would be - and that he was his rookie year. Nobody in the NFL gets evaluated on what seemed like a good idea at the time, only results. So far DG’s results are poor and Barkley is becoming part of that story, like it or not.
RE: It's..  
dschwarz in westchester : 9/21/2020 9:13 am : link
In comment 14979587 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
mainly because people would rather use his injury as a referendum on selecting a RB instead of hoping he fully recovers.

Some have dug in so deeply on hating him as a pick, that they were posting while Barkley is still on the turf about how fragile he is, how bad of a pick he was, and how the GM should be fired. For reference, at least 8 posts said Gettleman should have been fired at halftime. I wish I was kidding.

He's a kid people should admire. And I'm guessing that the majority of the fanbase still does, but the vocal minority would have you believe he's a stiff. We just had a post from one guy calling him a china doll who is unremarkable even when he plays.


Excellent post.

For the record, I didn't like the Barkley pick at all (and really, I still don't even if I agree he seems like a great kid).

But injuries happen and he didn't have a significant pre-draft injury history to worry about. The argument that he was fragile and therefore should not have been drafted high doesn't hold up to me at all.

Honestly if folks still have an axe to grind about the pick there are better/more reasonable arguments to be made (but they've been made to death, so what's the point).
RE: It's..  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/21/2020 9:14 am : link
In comment 14979587 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
mainly because people would rather use his injury as a referendum on selecting a RB instead of hoping he fully recovers.

The injury risk to RBs is baked into the discussion for why RBs are inherently risky to take so high in the draft, though.

I agree that it's a bit much to be calling for DG's head while SB was writhing in pain on the turf, but conversely it skews a bit apologist to not even acknowledge that injury risk and a shorter prime were some of the reasons why people have challenged the idea of taking a RB at #2.

We were reminded time and time again that those are aggregate numbers and no one player is defined by the trends of his position.

And yet, here we are.

I'm hoping like hell that Saquon recovers and that maybe there's a silver lining in him not taking 300 more tackles this year. I will continue to root for SB with all of my fandom and then some.

It doesn't mean I don't still think DG's approach to building a team is antiquated and inefficient. Those are two separate issues for me. Barkley is a Giant, and I will root for him no matter what for as long as he wears blue. The Giants are unquestionably a better team with Barkley than they are without him.

But to your point here, while there were definitely some fans who were quick to call for DG's head yesterday as a kneejerk reaction to Barkley's injury, there were also some fans who were already formulating this year's excuse for why DG can't build a winning roster here.

If DG has built a roster that can't show some progress this season because of an injury to one single (non-QB) player, then he still hasn't done a good enough job.
Most reasonable..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/21/2020 9:29 am : link
people agree that if there isn't significant progress, however that ends up being defined, that DG is going to bear the responsibility for that and should.

A lot of this is chasing windmills on the houses of the fringe idiots. Guys like Josh in the City who was using the injury to crow about how correct he was that you don't pick a RB at #2 and that DG should be immediately fired. With Darnold, this team is obviously a 10-12 win one.....
RE: Most reasonable..  
PatersonPlank : 9/21/2020 9:41 am : link
In comment 14979889 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
people agree that if there isn't significant progress, however that ends up being defined, that DG is going to bear the responsibility for that and should.

A lot of this is chasing windmills on the houses of the fringe idiots. Guys like Josh in the City who was using the injury to crow about how correct he was that you don't pick a RB at #2 and that DG should be immediately fired. With Darnold, this team is obviously a 10-12 win one.....


Darnold does look like a super stud - LoL

On Barkley, he will come back 100%. My only concern, and I don't know this, but does it make his ACL weaker overall and more susceptible to do it again?
Paterson..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/21/2020 9:55 am : link
as a guy who is the only member of his family to not tear an ACL - guess being slow and short helps - the same message has been said by the medical people each time. The new ACL should be as strong or stronger than prior. You actually have a bigger chance to tear the other ACL first.

However, we have seen players blow out the same knee and players who blew out both, so you can never really predict it
Recent guys with ACL's  
GManinDC : 9/21/2020 9:59 am : link
Derrius Guice and Bryce Love. Guice tore his back to back years.
RE: Barkley’s injuries are not a reason to fire Gettleman  
Bill L : 9/21/2020 10:03 am : link
In comment 14979791 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
But let’s stop pretending that firing Gettleman is some sort of fan over-reaction. The guy tore down this roster and rebuilt it over the last several years, and you can argue it isn’t any better then when he started.

They mentioned yesterday there are only four guys on the roster that pre-date DG. This is the team he built and it is bereft of talent up and down the roster. Arguing he has done a poor job constructing this roster is not some kind of extreme opinion.


When they talk about drafts being successful they say you have to wait three years to really tell (usually before every draft they talk about doing a re-draft of the class from three years prior). Don't these positions and your post contradict each other?
Different player  
Thegratefulhead : 9/21/2020 10:08 am : link
Peterson's is a different type of back. SB is about explosiveness and moves that put a lot of torque on the joint. I am concerned and wish him the very best. If anyone has the determination to come through this stronger. It is Saquan Barkley. I wish I possessed the quality of his character.
RE: RE: Barkley’s injuries are not a reason to fire Gettleman  
dschwarz in westchester : 9/21/2020 11:46 am : link
In comment 14980001 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14979791 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


But let’s stop pretending that firing Gettleman is some sort of fan over-reaction. The guy tore down this roster and rebuilt it over the last several years, and you can argue it isn’t any better then when he started.

They mentioned yesterday there are only four guys on the roster that pre-date DG. This is the team he built and it is bereft of talent up and down the roster. Arguing he has done a poor job constructing this roster is not some kind of extreme opinion.



When they talk about drafts being successful they say you have to wait three years to really tell (usually before every draft they talk about doing a re-draft of the class from three years prior). Don't these positions and your post contradict each other?


When Gettleman took over the Giants, they were an older roster full of players who either weren't very good, weren't very good anymore, or who were very will paid for what they were. That's pretty much the worst situation to be in - old/expensive/not good.

Since taking over Gettleman has gutted the roster completely and they now have a very young team filled with young players with promise. That's an improvement. But they still suck overall, and Gettleman's approach has not yielded any tangible results or sure fire super stars (other than Barkley and.... well let's leave that one be).

Personally I don't want the Giants to fire Gettleman this year or next year. Pretty much the surest way to fail is to vacillate between one 'solution' to the next so quickly that you can't even tell what works (RE: The Knicks). The Giants have in the last few years moved on from Coughlin, Reese, Eli, and Shurmur. That's a ton of organizational overhaul and starting all over again would only make sense to me if Gettleman was irredeemably incompetent. I don't think that's the case, and he's got a long resume of success in the NFL backing up the idea that he can build a respectable program if given the time to do so.
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