I say this because our defense has come a long way. We now have a corner who can take away top receivers. Bradberry is the second ranked corner on PFF. We have a linebacker who will contend for the league lead in tackles. Currently #1 rated off-ball LB on PFF. We have one of the best interior groups in the league. Carter is a legit edge talent. Currently rated #9 edge rusher by PFF. Love, Peppers, and Ballentine aren’t playing well but we still have a good defense.
I personally want to see more out of Jones, his receiving talent sucks right now. He lost Shep, who is the best route runner on this team. Engram has looked clueless and lost running short routes. Sadly, a TE oriented offense is showing us just how unreliable Engram is. Tate looks like he lost another step and Slayton is not a dominant #1 yet. My point is, if we’re going to buy into Jones for the next 10 years he NEEDS to transcend that, ALL of that.
4 turnovers in 2 games from a guy who excels in the short passing game just isn’t going to work. We can’t have a “game manager” that turns the ball over. Eli dealt with similar criticisms from us, he transcended those criticisms by being clutch. Jones not winning that game yesterday definitely impacted my confidence in him. As a Giants fan, I truly hope he becomes clutch, but as a Giants fan we have been spoiled with 15 years of a HOF franchise QB.
We’ve all seen Eli play an atrocious half, an atrocious game, and even an atrocious 3 game stretch. However, talent gap is no longer a viable excuse for this team. We HAVE talent, for the first time since 2016 this team can matchup well on defense. We have the ability to take a #1 receiver out of the game. We have the ability to stop the run. We are still working on having a consistent pass rush, maybe that doesn’t get resolved this year.
BUT, if Jones can’t win 5 or more games this year, under these circumstances, I believe it will be a major indicator of what we have.
Hear me out, we finally have a defense that can force turnovers and stops to give the ball back to our QB. We haven’t had that for some time. If Jones can’t use that to win games, especially winnable games, then he’s not a franchise QB, he’s a game manager, and we would be stupid to pay a game manager top QB money. Not only that, but we would be foolish to pass on elite QB talent in future drafts.
A lot of what makes a franchise QB are the things that happens behind the scenes. The perfection of key plays, the audibles and checks at the line, getting Engram to fucking run his routes better, are all things a top QB must figure out. Khalil Mack running untouched for a sack CAN’T HAPPEN. The lackadaisical nature of our offense in the first half is in my opinion, a major indictment on Jones. We need a Major step up from our guy, because for the first time in a long time, the defense was carrying the offense yesterday. It’s put up or shut up time for Jones, imo.
We have an ascending defense if we can get a legit pass rusher and more depth in the secondary. Another LBer would help.
How many ints has Brady thrown this year? Yes, Jones has a fumbling issue, but that can be corrected with coaching and reps. He still hasn't played a full season.
People were doubting Eli until he beat Tampa Bay in the Playoffs in 2007. It took 3 years until everyone stopped worrying about Eli.
Eli's teams were loaded with talent and the defense and Oline were much better. Put Jones on those teams and I bet he performs similar or better than Eli (stats wise)
Jones is a bright spot, he's coachable and smart. We need to build around him like we built around Eli in 2005. We just need more talent and reps. That's it, think of this as 2004 all over again.
Jones has.......an OL hoping to find its way, a TE that can't block very well and receivers that don't scare defenses (possibly Slayton). With a effective run game (I hoped) and no Barkley it is going to be tough. If they are not able to run well it will be difficult to overcome imo. Oh a new HC dealing with a pandemic for good measure.
A big reason for the narrative changing around Eli in 2007 is because he had 1 giveaway in 4 postseason underdog road games. If Jones is made of the same stuff then I’m in for another great 15 year stretch, but I’m not gonna sit here and assume he is.
What I’m saying is that talent is no longer a crutch, if Engram keeps holding this team back, that’s an indictment on all the coaches, he is the definition of talent. If it’s going to take savvy QB play to open up this offense then that’s exactly what we need and should depend on. It shouldn’t take another top 10 receiver to open this offense up.
We have 7 starters on defense alone that would start for every team in the NFL. LW, Lawrence, Tomlinson, Carter, Martinez, Bradberry, Logan Ryan.
On defense alone that’s 7 guys that would have no problem getting a starting spot for any team in the NFL.
How are we bottom 3 in talent??
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Do you think other teams fans are saying to themselves they really wish they had Jones on their team? Or Evan Engram? Or Golden Tate? Or Peppers? Or anyone else on this team not named Saquon Barkley? I highly doubt it. Let's no kid ourselves. The Giants are not winning games because they don't have the talent to outlast their mistakes and the other teams are able to take advantage of that lack of talent on both sides of the ball.
We have 7 starters on defense alone that would start for every team in the NFL. LW, Lawrence, Tomlinson, Carter, Martinez, Bradberry, Logan Ryan.
On defense alone that’s 7 guys that would have no problem getting a starting spot for any team in the NFL.
How are we bottom 3 in talent??
LOL - Dave Gettleman? Is that you?
We have 7 starters on defense alone that would start for every team in the NFL. LW, Lawrence, Tomlinson, Carter, Martinez, Bradberry, Logan Ryan.
Logan Ryan and Carter would have trouble finding other starting spots.
The rest could probably start obn most but not all teams, and none of them are likely to be all pro. We might send 1 or 2 to the pro bowl if we are lucky.
DG’s job depends on Daniel Jones, not the talent level of this roster. After all, he is the one that gave away all our talent for peanuts in the first place. This thread is questioning Jones being the guy of the future, yeah, definitely a pro DG thread.
This defense doesn't force enough turnovers yet, they're not very good rushing the passer or stopping the run.
The Bears are going to struggle to win 8 games, they're not a strong litmus test. And yet, they ran the ball on the Giants. The Steelers offense has considerable passing weapons, but their OL and rushing attack is ordinary and they ran the ball on us.
Giants are probably bottom five in talent unless the young guys start to show progress. I still some in spots, but still way too much invisibility. That means they're losing individual battles more often than not.
Honestly can’t think of a team where Logan Ryan wouldn’t start at slot CB. Saints, Steelers, Patriots, Bills, even the top defenses have holes at DB.
The defense needs talent at NT, both OLB spots (or at least get the legit impact edge to play opposite Carter because he's still not looking like an impact defender), CB, and both safety spots need a boost. Quite frankly, the LB unit looks upgraded to me but still in the mediocre range.
I think the roster should be a little better than 2019, but losing SB hurts the offense and its ability to try and control games with the run. The defense is playing with more discipline, but still can't get off the field on third down, or generate an effective pass rush, or get the run defense down to a respectable ypc.
Panthers, Jets, Broncos, Dolphins, Lions, Bengals, Jaguars all trot out lesser talent than we do. We are not bottom 5. If an argument can be made for the Lions and Jags it is solely because they are getting better QB play.
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PFF especially after two games is a limited line of sight.
Panthers, Jets, Broncos, Dolphins, Lions, Bengals, Jaguars all trot out lesser talent than we do. We are not bottom 5. If an argument can be made for the Lions and Jags it is solely because they are getting better QB play.
You're an optimistic one, I'll give you that. A bit deluded, but optimistic.
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In comment 14980597 JonC said:
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PFF especially after two games is a limited line of sight.
Panthers, Jets, Broncos, Dolphins, Lions, Bengals, Jaguars all trot out lesser talent than we do. We are not bottom 5. If an argument can be made for the Lions and Jags it is solely because they are getting better QB play.
You're an optimistic one, I'll give you that. A bit deluded, but optimistic.
LOL, just tired of defending Jones man, really wanted that to be his moment yesterday, sour grapes
If the worst happens this year and this is a number 1 overall pick team, I think there is a very real chance TL is the opening day starter next year. I can't see a non DG GM passing on that impact talent for the chance Jones "might" improve.
Week 2. We wait all year and now we are passing judgements before October.
id also argue the panthers, jags, browns, dolphins, and redskins have less overall talent.
at minimum im taking jones over EVERY team i mentioned except burrow.
come seasons end i expect the talent level to be just below middle of the pack. it may not show in the record but with a new staff and covid with a rebuilding OL, wins dont come easily or quickly.
I firmly believe the talent level is growing, but we certainly need the OL to gel, another WR added to the mix, a starting corner, mckinney to get some PT and improve, and maybe another RB at this point
I still like Jones, I just don’t think he’s earned the benefit of the doubt like Eli did.
id also argue the panthers, jags, browns, dolphins, and redskins have less overall talent.
at minimum im taking jones over EVERY team i mentioned except burrow.
come seasons end i expect the talent level to be just below middle of the pack. it may not show in the record but with a new staff and covid with a rebuilding OL, wins dont come easily or quickly.
I firmly believe the talent level is growing, but we certainly need the OL to gel, another WR added to the mix, a starting corner, mckinney to get some PT and improve, and maybe another RB at this point
The Dolphins almost beat the Bills plus they have Tua waiting in the wings.The Browns have more talent than the Giants. We probably have a better roster than the Bengals but I'd take Burrow and Mixon over Jones and Barkley (pre-injury)
There are 3 teams that run a 3-4 that I wouldn’t start him on, Packers, Steelers, and Bears. But they would most likely play him at a different spot because he’s likely one of the best 11. Carter has been making plays vs the run that have been downright elite, he’s made plays pass rushing as well. If you don’t see it yet, you’ll see it midseason.
This week will show us who we are as SF is really banged up and traveling across the country. I think this team rallies and pulls out a win FINALLY to get untracked.
We will miss Shepard and Barkley but this is the NFL so next man up....CJ Board better be ready!
While arguable, it is also a low bar to set. Woo hoo, we're number 26!
There are two talent levels you want to be at in the NFL: a fully talented roster that competes for the Super Bowl, or a completely talentless roster, which brings premium draft assets to rebuild the team.
Teams in the second category get help to get to the first. The Giants problem is they've been in the second category for a while now, and haven't made enough progress toward the first. Clean house.
(I don't happen to think TL is all that he is cracked up to be)
You can't evaluate the Giants roster talent by looking only at the 2019 team and concluding "hey we got better" b/c X guy is better than Y player without looking for evidence that the current roster is actually better than the other 31 teams roster based on how they actually perform in game time situations. This D still does not stop opposing teams enough to win games. It ain't rocket science guys.
The Bear are up 4 points and everybody knew they were just going to run the ball to eat up time, particularly since Trubisky had let the Giants back in the game by throwing 2 interceptions in the second half. Yet, somehow this vaunted run-stopping Defensive Line and the #1 Tackling Middle Linebacker allowed runs of 11, 10, 12 and 23-yards during the drive.
Pathetic. And that is on the entire Defense & coaches. An opposing team basically has to run the ball, everybody knows it and the supposedly one thing that you can say the Giants should be reasonably competent at this year is stopping the run.
And they can't.
The Bear are up 4 points and everybody knew they were just going to run the ball to eat up time, particularly since Trubisky had let the Giants back in the game by throwing 2 interceptions in the second half. Yet, somehow this vaunted run-stopping Defensive Line and the #1 Tackling Middle Linebacker allowed runs of 11, 10, 12 and 23-yards during the drive.
Pathetic. And that is on the entire Defense & coaches. An opposing team basically has to run the ball, everybody knows it and the supposedly one thing that you can say the Giants should be reasonably competent at this year is stopping the run.
And they can't.
This is NOT a playoff caliber team with Barkley and Shepard 100%, at least not early in the year. so I see us as a team with potential but not a talented team.
I'm going to predict right now the following:
1. Our run defense will become stout and stay stout barring injuries.
2. Our secondary will improve as its young
3. Our OL will improve and I pray that Peart, Lemiuex are playing well and perhaps even starting by season's end.
4. We will beat SF and be in the "thick of things" - just a shame that Dallas came back against ATLANTA.
In fact, the defense had been on the field for only 5 plays in the previous 11 minutes.
Blaming it on conditioning issues is a reach if not a joke.
Motivate...the franchise tagged veteran needs motivation? The first round pick DT needs motivation? Maybe some others I can understand but our two studs on defense I cannot.
The team has hardly won any games while they have been here, and there in a position to steal one in a comeback yesterday and we don’t have our difference makers on the field, the guys we invested the most in, and they are out of shape and they need motivation.
Super.
I really think he needs to start using his feet moreso and extend plays more often outside the pocket.
Not talking about just taking off but create some space for himself and give the receivers a few extra seconds to do scramble drill routes.
Not even sure about that considering that the Jets beat the Giants last year.
My thoughts exactly. The team has massive holes all over the field. This roster is really far off.
Exactly. Patience/Time does not equal becoming good/ winning. If anyone should know that its Giants fans. They simply aren't bringing in enough good NFL players. This roster is really bad- theres no way around that. Enough with the moral victory bullshit. How about being a competitive NFL team?
The Jets debatably have a worse roster but they have two first rounders from the Hawks coming, I'd also prefer where they are at for that reason.
The Panthers are really the only roster I think you could argue is more bereft of talent but I would happily switch places with that franchise because of their owners and front office.
As much as people rag on Reese you could make an argument we had more talent when DG took over.
If the arrow's going to point up, we need to see more than incremental improvements. Right now, there's no impact players on this roster. And, I'd take Burrow over Jones as well, Herbert too.
I fear you are correct. Jets/Panthers after that I'm not sure we're better than anyone else.
Not writing him off yet by any means. Just know that it's a very tough road to improve that awareness and i'm struggling to come up with many examples of QBs that did it.
Tannehill, the most used comp, his worst fumbles per game was 9 in 13 games (12 starts) and Jones was 18 fumbles in 13 games (12 starts) last year. It's a whole different stratosphere at double the number.
It's a bigger concern than many make it out to be.
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Look, I know it’s early and the kid hasn’t had time to grow into the position. I get that, I accept that this is going to take time. But, I just don’t see anything special so far. He throws a nice ball, he makes some plays with his legs. But the reports on him from college seem to be spot on so far. He lacks awareness in the pocket, his clock is off, idk what it’s but there’s that problem and it causes him to fumble. He forces some throws when he’s either fooled by coverage or, more worrisome, when he’s looking at a covered receiver. Which, yeah, that’s gonna happen to any NFL QB, but sort of to the OP point, where’s the upside? Where are the big throws in the big spots to win games? Maybe it’s too soon to expect that? I know with NFL QBs you wait until year three. I guess we just have to be patient. But, he’s got to at least stop turning the ball over now. This team just isn’t good enough to win when they loose the turnover battle.
I wasn't concerned about him until this week. Too much hesitation. Look like he has lost confidence. The NFL is a half a second world. No time for hesitation.
I'm not all the way where trueblueinpw is but I'm concerned. From a probability perspective I think the range of outcomes is now a higher pct that he will be a mediocre QB and a relatively small pct that he will be a star. The things he flashes and does well, almost every starter does well from time to time. He needs to eliminate mistakes and get off the steady diet of underneath stuff. If he can do these things it will be clear he is taking a step forward. Don't see it yet.