The reality is that DG run as the GM isn't going to last much longer due to his age, health and lack of success. The Giants will NEVER "fire" him, he'll be put into retirement with a happy sendoff and a lot of warm remarks about him. That's the Giants way of doing business.
That said, do you think that the Giants have a plan of succession knowing what is coming and do they have someone in house ready to take over? Or do you think that they go outside the organization?
If they go outside for new blood, where does that leave Joe Judge?
Abrams freely admits he is not a player personal...more cap and contracts.
The system of accountability is in place....so it really matter little if Gettleman remains in place.....BBI makes way too much of Gettleman. The Giants have a team approach....and
Judges power will grow...he has that kind of persona.
Abrams freely admits he is not a player personal...more cap and contracts.
The system of accountability is in place....so it really matter little if Gettleman remains in place.....BBI makes way too much of Gettleman. The Giants have a team approach....and
Judges power will grow...he has that kind of persona.
Good post. I have faith in the direction of the team
You can’t keep starting over because you want instant gratification.
He is part of a team. As long as him and Judge are on the same page, I’m good.
Reese/Ross went away from accountability to cya approach. They would double down on mistakes.
Giants rarely keep underpreforming players year after year. We have seen players cut quickly. They fired the scout who recommneded Baker.
Chris Pettit is the key right now....as he oversee all the scouts.
If Judge adds another player personal person ....he might even work with Gettleman. Again, it is a team approach.
The Giants are not going to change course now...for awhile.
What happened to the Giants in the second decade of this century is a replay of what happened in the 60s. Not keeping up with the latest analytic developments in the game . Nepotism . Hidebound adherence to the former ways . To his credit , after a blowhard , disastrous start , Mr G identified these problems . But he , himself , is not good enough to lead .
I’ve said this before : Gettleman went for the coffee when the true talent remained in the building . He adopted some of their mannerisms . He moved up simply by attrition . He got a big job outside the organization . That organization ultimately let him go .
This team still needs outside refreshment . I think they had it right when they considered Riddick . If he were still interested in the job, he would be my choice .
Barkley was best player available.
If you want Gettleman fired then Daniel Jones must fail....
And I will not hope for that....
No major changes will occur...
Judge will gain power....and will be able to tweak things, add people...but this system will remain
However all these dire posts are quite comical.
Seems the Giants cap situation is usually as good as anyone else’s s, if true why would they allow Abrams to leave. Wouldn’t it be smart to keep him in place and allow Judge more say in personnel decisions.
This idea, that staying in house, “The Giants Way, is bad, overlooks that it has been a pretty successful franchise.
As to Gettleman, trying to rebuild around Eli in some ways prevented the tearing down that was necessary, difficult to believe that was solely his decision.
An objective look at the Giants does not conclude without a doubt, he has failed, that has yet to be determined
There is a lot of good insight on this thread.
Reese/Ross went away from accountability to cya approach. They would double down on mistakes.
Giants rarely keep underpreforming players year after year. We have seen players cut quickly. They fired the scout who recommneded Baker.
What does this even mean?. Reese was under the GY/Accorsi tree. Who you think was scouting the players they drafted??
And BTW, that scout people keep referring to, Gettleman appointed him to that positon himself the year before. So it isn't like he fired a scout that Reese had there..
The thing I hate is saying X can do better. Well, if you're going to say that, fine - but then make the case. Say why X is better, but then explore that person's mistakes to discuss as well (unless the person has zero GM experience). I also think the season needs to play out. Let's see how the team responds, what the coaches do.
However all these dire posts are quite comical.
CHOO CHOO!!
I think I hear the Gettleman excuse train coming around the bend.
The man is a scout that does not have the skill set to be a successful GM. He should have been canned last year and nothing short of a .500 season should save his ass after this season.
Abrams freely admits he is not a player personal...more cap and contracts.
The system of accountability is in place....so it really matter little if Gettleman remains in place.....BBI makes way too much of Gettleman. The Giants have a team approach....and
Judges power will grow...he has that kind of persona.
This is what I want. Just go all in on Judge at this point - we really can't do any more damage than what's already been done if it doesn't work.
But I actually think this will work well. Leave the personnel decisions to Judge and his staff and let Abrams manage the finances.
The days of finding a GM that can be a scouting guru and cap wizard are over for the most part. I think its a dying breed in football.
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I am fine with Gettleman. The drafting has improved dramatically. This is more about being a new coaching staff with no practice time and pre season games.
However all these dire posts are quite comical.
CHOO CHOO!!
I think I hear the Gettleman excuse train coming around the bend.
The man is a scout that does not have the skill set to be a successful GM. He should have been canned last year and nothing short of a .500 season should save his ass after this season.
The irony of talking about the excuse train coming around when you say that Gettleman doesn't have the skill set to succeed as a GM is telling.
Whether or not DG succeeds here, he succeeded in Carolina. And he didn't it not as a scout, but by clearing up a huge mess they had with the salary cap when he arrived.
But since it doesn't pertain to the Giants - it must never have happened.
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But I have heard Judge is good friends with a player personal person....so he gets asst, GM role.
Abrams freely admits he is not a player personal...more cap and contracts.
The system of accountability is in place....so it really matter little if Gettleman remains in place.....BBI makes way too much of Gettleman. The Giants have a team approach....and
Judges power will grow...he has that kind of persona.
This is what I want. Just go all in on Judge at this point - we really can't do any more damage than what's already been done if it doesn't work.
But I actually think this will work well. Leave the personnel decisions to Judge and his staff and let Abrams manage the finances.
The days of finding a GM that can be a scouting guru and cap wizard are over for the most part. I think its a dying breed in football.
I think this would be nuts. Yes, Judge needs at least 3 years here to try to turn this thing around. However, handing over control of personnel to someone who has not been a head coach at any level would not be a wise decision. At this point, we don't even know if he can be a successful head coach let alone a head coach/GM. I'm in favor of giving a head coach more say in personnel decisions but it would have to be someone with a proven track record at the coaching level.
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In comment 14981190 Chip said:
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I am fine with Gettleman. The drafting has improved dramatically. This is more about being a new coaching staff with no practice time and pre season games.
However all these dire posts are quite comical.
CHOO CHOO!!
I think I hear the Gettleman excuse train coming around the bend.
The man is a scout that does not have the skill set to be a successful GM. He should have been canned last year and nothing short of a .500 season should save his ass after this season.
The irony of talking about the excuse train coming around when you say that Gettleman doesn't have the skill set to succeed as a GM is telling.
Whether or not DG succeeds here, he succeeded in Carolina. And he didn't it not as a scout, but by clearing up a huge mess they had with the salary cap when he arrived.
But since it doesn't pertain to the Giants - it must never have happened.
Bullshit. The main building blocks in Carolina were in place before Gettleman was the GM there. He didn't build that team himself.
So, you're basically calling me a dupe? Ok. I'll be a dupe. Still does not justify anything you said as fact as all..
So Gettleman doesn't get credit for success in Carolina inheriting a good team but takes the fall in NY when inheriting a terrible one?
By the way - do some research. What exactly did his predecessor do with all that talent? What has his successor done with the team? There's a reason Carolina fans still complain about DG being let go.
And just to note - Gettleman is Carolina's best ever GM in terms of record.
But apparently undeservingly. The shit said here sometimes is just so fucking rich
What does this mean? GMan coming back to the board has been a welcome sight - now he's called a dupe? I think you're confused
Scout Chris Pettit on what types of players Giants look for - ( New Window )
Abrams freely admits he is not a player personal...more cap and contracts.
The system of accountability is in place....so it really matter little if Gettleman remains in place.....BBI makes way too much of Gettleman. The Giants have a team approach....and
Judges power will grow...he has that kind of persona.
I really don't get the "Abrams is the next GM" idea. Gettleman is the third GM Abrams has been deputy to. if they wanted to promote him they would have done so already. Abrams is the cap guy, not a player personnel guy. They want a player personnel guy as the GM.
But I just don't like group think and points that don't have fact for basis. This place is riddled with it..
And don't look now, but Daniel Jones is 24th in QBR and 32nd in standard QB rating. It's early but getting late fast.
If, in turn, the Giants finish 2-14 or 3-13, then the organization need complete cleansing and replacing DG with anyone in house cannot be acceptable.
We'll need to wait until seasons end.
He let a lot of the veterans go which was the right move.
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Bullshit. The main building blocks in Carolina were in place before Gettleman was the GM there. He didn't build that team himself.
So Gettleman doesn't get credit for success in Carolina inheriting a good team but takes the fall in NY when inheriting a terrible one?
By the way - do some research. What exactly did his predecessor do with all that talent? What has his successor done with the team? There's a reason Carolina fans still complain about DG being let go.
And just to note - Gettleman is Carolina's best ever GM in terms of record.
But apparently undeservingly. The shit said here sometimes is just so fucking rich
Get a clue man.
All of these KEY pieces to that SB team were in place prior to Gettleman's arrival and they were definitely many of the main cogs in Gettleman's Win Loss record that you're so proud of;
Cam Newton
Jonathan Stewart
Greg Olsen
Luke Kuechly
Thomas Davis
Ryan Kalil
Ted Ginn
Josh Norman
I'm sure there are others.
Do you actually think Carolina sniffs a SB without these guys? Not a chance...
That you don't hold that opinion shows exactly how biased and inconsistent your opinion is
Before:
2010: 2-14
2011: 6-10
2012: 7-9
After:
2018: 7-9
2019: 5-11
2020: 0-2
While he was there:
2013:12-4 *Playoffs
2014:7-8-1 *Playoffs
2015: 15-1 *Playoffs
2016: 6-10
2017: 11-5* Playoffs
5 years. 4 Playoff appearances. None the period before or since.
what are you saying about getting a clue?
I’d guess that if there is a GM vacancy at the end of the season, the Giants will interview a few candidates. An outside name I’d watch is Monti Ossenfort from TEN who knows Judge from NE. I’d imagine Abrams and Pettit would also be interviewed.
The Giants are very young and their new franchise QB has played in only 14 games. A ton of recent draft capital has been invested in the OL & defense. Now is not the time to bring in an “outside” voice and blow this up. That would be incredibly dumb. If it is an outside voice, he better have connections to Judge.
Some of the decisions that were made,who knows who the driving force was behind them.It's the old Jerry Reese defense,but in this case I think it holds up better.Not taking a receiver,or not drafting a pass rusher.These are key decisions that can break you.You're telling me this was all Gettleman. I can't say that for certain,but some people will.
So, the question is after three years, are we anywhere close to talented enough to compete for the Super Bowl? If a team like the Saints (who just lost to LV) come in to MetLife, what do you think would happen?
Clean house.
Before:
2010: 2-14
2011: 6-10
2012: 7-9
After:
2018: 7-9
2019: 5-11
2020: 0-2
While he was there:
2013:12-4 *Playoffs
2014:7-8-1 *Playoffs
2015: 15-1 *Playoffs
2016: 6-10
2017: 11-5* Playoffs
5 years. 4 Playoff appearances. None the period before or since.
what are you saying about getting a clue?
I'll repeat it for you...get a clue man.
So you're attempting to defend Gettleman's Carolina record by stating the team was good while he was there but went downhill immediately after he left?
That certainly couldn't be due to the skills of those players that were on the roster before he was hired, eroding with age after 8-10 years in the league and Gettleman's failing to replace them with new players that were equally as talented. I'm sure it had nothing to do with that or his poor drafts and the hatchet job he did on some of the talented players he let go.
You also like to speak of the mess that Gettleman inherited when he took the Giants job due to the poor job of the previous GM. Yet the fact that the Panthers sucked for years after DG was fired is due to them no longer having his Keen management skills rather than him sucking at his job. Unbelievable...
By the way that record of 7-8-1 and making the playoffs speaks volumes about the level of competition in that division during DG's tenure.
Weird. I don't care enough to argue about Gettelman anymore, but you scoffing off 4 playoff appearances and a SB appearance is pretty telling.
the best comment? Was this bit of comedy gold.
No
pjcas18 : 9:12 am : link : reply
because of COVID the replacement is working from home.
Well the flip side is you blame him for everything,due to whatever reasons you have.That doesn't qualify as fair,which is what I'm trying to be here.
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Are you suggesting he should have a bunch of get out jail free cards for being only 33% culpable, or that it’s okay to go along with a bad decisions that he is the face of?
Well the flip side is you blame him for everything,due to whatever reasons you have.That doesn't qualify as fair,which is what I'm trying to be here.
I absolutely put the responsibility for roster and talent issues at his doorstep. I don’t blame him for everything but point out what i am being unfair to him on?
Definitely need to do something other than the "Giants way" of structuring this franchise. However, all that being said, the current owners will not make that kind of change outside of their comfort level.
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look at the Panthers record before and after Gettleman - with many of those players still there.
Before:
2010: 2-14
2011: 6-10
2012: 7-9
After:
2018: 7-9
2019: 5-11
2020: 0-2
While he was there:
2013:12-4 *Playoffs
2014:7-8-1 *Playoffs
2015: 15-1 *Playoffs
2016: 6-10
2017: 11-5* Playoffs
5 years. 4 Playoff appearances. None the period before or since.
what are you saying about getting a clue?
I'll repeat it for you...get a clue man.
So you're attempting to defend Gettleman's Carolina record by stating the team was good while he was there but went downhill immediately after he left?
That certainly couldn't be due to the skills of those players that were on the roster before he was hired, eroding with age after 8-10 years in the league and Gettleman's failing to replace them with new players that were equally as talented. I'm sure it had nothing to do with that or his poor drafts and the hatchet job he did on some of the talented players he let go.
You also like to speak of the mess that Gettleman inherited when he took the Giants job due to the poor job of the previous GM. Yet the fact that the Panthers sucked for years after DG was fired is due to them no longer having his Keen management skills rather than him sucking at his job. Unbelievable...
By the way that record of 7-8-1 and making the playoffs speaks volumes about the level of competition in that division during DG's tenure.
Why do you keep telling me to get a clue?? You are literally dismissing the record in Carolina while he was there - again he is the most successful GM in that team's history. And you are doubling down by saying he gets no credit for that record but has to take full credit for the record here.
You really do seem to be too fucking stupid to not grasp the break in logic there.
Your posts have a lot of holes in them, and you are picking and choosing what to include and ignore. Not worth engaging if you aren't going to be honest about your stance.
And yet....DG's first 2 years here, you could argue that 80% of that roster was Reese's, and yet EVERYONE wants to lay the blame on DG.
So basically in summary, he had nothing to do with Carolina success, but everything to do with NYG lack of success.
You really cannot make this shit up.
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In comment 14981356 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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look at the Panthers record before and after Gettleman - with many of those players still there.
Before:
2010: 2-14
2011: 6-10
2012: 7-9
After:
2018: 7-9
2019: 5-11
2020: 0-2
While he was there:
2013:12-4 *Playoffs
2014:7-8-1 *Playoffs
2015: 15-1 *Playoffs
2016: 6-10
2017: 11-5* Playoffs
5 years. 4 Playoff appearances. None the period before or since.
what are you saying about getting a clue?
I'll repeat it for you...get a clue man.
So you're attempting to defend Gettleman's Carolina record by stating the team was good while he was there but went downhill immediately after he left?
That certainly couldn't be due to the skills of those players that were on the roster before he was hired, eroding with age after 8-10 years in the league and Gettleman's failing to replace them with new players that were equally as talented. I'm sure it had nothing to do with that or his poor drafts and the hatchet job he did on some of the talented players he let go.
You also like to speak of the mess that Gettleman inherited when he took the Giants job due to the poor job of the previous GM. Yet the fact that the Panthers sucked for years after DG was fired is due to them no longer having his Keen management skills rather than him sucking at his job. Unbelievable...
By the way that record of 7-8-1 and making the playoffs speaks volumes about the level of competition in that division during DG's tenure.
Why do you keep telling me to get a clue?? You are literally dismissing the record in Carolina while he was there - again he is the most successful GM in that team's history. And you are doubling down by saying he gets no credit for that record but has to take full credit for the record here.
You really do seem to be too fucking stupid to not grasp the break in logic there.
I'm saying he didn't build a SB winning team himself. In addition, you've done the exact same thing you're accusing me of doing.
You say, Gettleman doesn't deserve all the harsh criticism here because of the roster he inherited from Reese. Yet, you're trying to spin Carolina's poor WL record after Gettleman left, on the fact that Gettleman was no longer there. In other words, DG didn't leave Carolina with a shitty roster, it was the new guy's fault. POT KETTLE BLACK.
But keep on spewing your opinions as facts like you normally do.
His fatal thought was trying to move Greg Olsen and Thomas Davis
While he was there, the team went to the playoffs 4 out of 5 years, didn't make it the previous 4 before he arrived and haven't made them since. He also started the analytics department there and mentored Brandon Beane who is now the Bills GM. Fans here are still baffled on why he was let go and why Marty Hurney was put back in the role.
This isn't to make the case he's been a good GM for us. It is to refute the absolute bullshit take that he sucks as a GM.
What I did was post the records of pre--Gettleman, post-Gettleman and the record while he was there. Which should indisputably be considered as facts.
I'm not doing that to say he's a great GM - I'm doing that to refute he's a poor GM and to point out that his tenure in Carolina is the most successful of any of their GM's.
If that's spewing my opinion - I'm going to keep doing it, rather than heed the exaggerative ramblings of a fucking lunatic.
Won 26 Loss 6 - (Won superbowl in that span)
Dave Gettlemen 2018, 2019, and 2020 (first two games):
Won 9 Loss 25
Not looking good for Dave Gettlemen
Won 26 Loss 10 - (Won superbowl in that span)
Dave Gettlemen 2018, 2019, and 2020 (first two games):
Won 9 Loss 25
Not looking good for Dave Gettlemen
And yet....DG's first 2 years here, you could argue that 80% of that roster was Reese's, and yet EVERYONE wants to lay the blame on DG.
So basically in summary, he had nothing to do with Carolina success, but everything to do with NYG lack of success.
You really cannot make this shit up.
You went too far with 80% roster thing comment. How long do you think you want to give him to assess NYG players...two years?
Posts with EVERYONE, NOTHING, EVERYTHING tend to go a bridge too far. Starts sounding like that fat guy.
That and one by trolls, Googs.
If I'm using everything, everyone or nothing, show me. By the time you find it, you'll be on your next handle
DG did a good job in CAR, which is why I was fine (but not ecstatic) with him coming here.
I think he's done a bad job as NYG GM, but he did a good job with CAR.
Cool. So it should be easy to find where I talk about everyone, everything and nothing, right.
You can even go back to when you were on your previous handle and look....
Some fans will buy the product no matter how bad it is, validating the insular backwards management style that has made us see this team turn into a punch line increasingly.
The problem isn't promoting from within, the problem is making it clear that you have a GM in waiting during such a period of futility.
No one should be ok with this.
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in making your rants around here.
Cool. So it should be easy to find where I talk about everyone, everything and nothing, right.
You can even go back to when you were on your previous handle and look....
So that took about a whole 2 hours before you couldn’t help yourself and posted another rant on an exaggerated point. Classic :- )
Nice to see I have a troll following me around. It is equal parts cute and creepy.
Keep up.
Isn't there something in there about moving goalposts??
DG did a good job in CAR, which is why I was fine (but not ecstatic) with him coming here.
I think he's done a bad job as NYG GM, but he did a good job with CAR.
This was my thoughts exactly.
Good teams are usually made up of a large group of quality starters who are replaceable. Then a few key stars added to take a team to the next level.
What he inherited in NC was a team that had some pieces that he could add a few more and create a solid team. (see other posters above for key players he added)
The failure is harder to judge, and I don't follow Carolina closely enough to fully judge what happened there, but it seems like it followed the demise of their QB...
With the Giants, there should have been an immediate recognition that the Giants had gaping talent deficits everywhere and needed a full rebuild. Heck, the entire offensive line was changed over (Flowers to RT was the only player kept, and him only for a few games). That alone screams rebuild. It should be obvious that an entire OL, can't be replaced through 1 draft pick and FA in 1 off season. That is a recipe for disaster. It should have been plain as day that the didn't have "another run" in them.
The team needed to be rebuilt essentially from scratch. That is a very different task. It requires a different mindset, than does the "adding a few pieces" mindset. Just based on his time here, I can see Gettleman being successful adding a few pieces. That is how he seems to be approaching this rebuild. We have added a star RB, a QB, a couple of 3 -4 DEs, finally a LT... The QB and LT are certainly key (and required) pieces for a successful team. But stars anywhere can be key pieces.
IMO, the problem at the time, and that still persists, is that the Giants have been in desperate need of that base of quality starters. Whats more, to sustain success you have to have a pipeline of these kind of players, because they tend to attrit quicker than your stars.
For a team that needs quality starters (not necessarily stars, though stars are always good, they can come later in the rebuild) up and down the roster, the obvious answer was to trade down when you have really high draft choices (unless you are targeting a QB). There are plenty of studies done by PhD economists and statisticians that show that the odds of getting quality starters is significantly higher when you trade down (seems like picks between about 25 - 70 is the sweet spot, I am not going to bother to re-post the articles, they have been posted here numerous times by various posters including myself, if you care, go find them and read them). It should have been an obvious priority to build the OL since he was replacing everybody. Trading down and taking multiple bites at the apple (i.e. drafting OL) would have been the far more likely to produce players who could find success here. Just the ods of having multiple tries. And yes your odds of hitting is slightly lower as you go down in the draft, but not by that much, and certainly it reduces far less the assigned value of the pick. Based on the draft value chart, you can probably pick up 5 picks between the range of 30 to 45 in exchange for the #2 pick. The odds of hitting on the #2 pick are only about 58% (that is approximate, I don't have the exact number handy at the moment, but its close), and the odds of hitting on picks in the 30 to 45 range probably averages a little below 50%. Clearly the odds of failing with the #2 pick is much higher than failing on all 5 of the lower picks. If fact you are likely to have 2 or 3 hits with the lower ones. And that is what the Giant's need. They need to be hitting on a lot more picks every year than they have been. They also need to be hitting on their FA at a much higher rate. FA is where you can find many of those "replaceable" but quality starters.
IMO, where Gettleman has really lagged, at least here in NY, has been filling in the roster with that base of quality starters. I have given him credit for some of the "stars" he has brought in. And, Fatman, before you go criticizing again, you yourself have said numerous times that you favored a trade down as well. Why you attack others with the same opinion is difficult to fathom, except that you just like to attack, and bring attention to yourself without supplying any information of any importance. I.E. posting Gettleman's record with Carolina and saying all you did was post his record. Without further analysis, posting his record with another team by itself is meaningless to his track record as GM with the Giants. However, you try to make it seem as though it has some relevance, when it doesn't. Completely different situations.
It seems to me, that Gettleman can find the stars, but he struggles finding players on the next tier down. When he says he "misread" the team, again my opinion is that I think he has an inability to judge the quality starters from the garbage depth players. That blind spot is why the team is spinning its wheels and not improving. Also, trading down for him, would be playing into his weakness. So, I doubt that he is going to ever do it.
With a 7-round draft, the importance of a GM who can find 16 players plus free agents is diminished. It's not worth having a separate person to find 7 guys each year. Most of BBI could do just as well as many GMs finding 7 guys with a draft guide you can buy at Barnes & Noble.