I mean, Jones was good (not great) last week. The strip sack was a problem in waiting too long, but besides that he was on target for basically every throw. He improvised twice to keep drives alive with the third down toss to Lewis on the TD drive and the fourth down pass to Lewis on the last drive, Is he still processing the field a bit slower than we would like, maybe so. But,he is a baby in the league a new in this system. Moreovert, he got let down by drops on third down. Shepard on the first series of the game, Engram dropped a ball on third down (what else is new) when he was wide open on the possession after the INT in the third quarter at Chicago's 25 or 30, Ratley dropped a ball on the five. Engram fell on the INT. If those guys do their jobs we are most likely talking about a win than a loss. It shouldn't bother me that this is the way the media acts, but when I see other QB get every benefit of the doubt, it does bother me especially since I have seen this movie twice before with Simms and Eli (in particular where almost every mistake was magnified in the extreme).
I really don't see the case for definitive statements with Jones at this point. He's played well at times and poorly at times. He's not in an environment particularly conducive to success, but neither does he seem to be able to elevate the play of those around him. He is absolutely a work in progress, with reasons to be hopeful but also reasons to doubt him. I don't agree with the people who gush about him being a real franchise QB and I don't agree with people who have written him off. I think he should be at least a decent NFL starter, but I don't see him as having elite potential.
Otherwise Jones has shown a lot to like and the INTs have not been a problem, but the Fumbles have been... going back to the first pre-season he appears in... he will either clean that up or he will become someone's back up.
Two things about that:
1)Eli's rookie season was the last season before Bill Polian sobbed to the league about the Patriots defense, leading to the rule changes that drove the explosion in passing offense. It was harder to play QB back then.
2)Very different offenses. Jones doesn't throw deep nearly as much as Eli did.
Statistics aside... Jones 'looks' MUCH better than Eli or Simms over the same period of time as a starter. I don't think that's even a debate. The question then becomes, were Eli and Simms that bad, or is Jones just that good. IMHO, the answer is somewhere in between. Jones had a higher ceiling (more potential to be better than Eli or Phil), but his progress is slower than I expected.
How is he being treated differently than Wentz, Darnold, Trubisky, etc. by the media? Should the media give Jones the benefit of the doubt simply because BBI says he resembles a franchise qb? Reality is, he may not be anything better than a JAG qb or worse. Giants won't win in either case.
Wentz is measurably worse.
The good news is that these ratings aren't set in stone. But every game he plays adds to the evidence of how good he's ever going to be.
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I will say, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast and his completion % was way lower than Jones's.
Two things about that:
1)Eli's rookie season was the last season before Bill Polian sobbed to the league about the Patriots defense, leading to the rule changes that drove the explosion in passing offense. It was harder to play QB back then.
2)Very different offenses. Jones doesn't throw deep nearly as much as Eli did.
Not arguing with you about your points, or another poster earlier asking about garbage time but, we are always looking for reasons why stats don't match but only in a negative mindset. The fact is Eli had Coughlin- Gilbride- Tiki, Toomer, Shockey, Burress a solid oline and a defense to get him the ball back. Jones hasn't had any of that minus Barkley and to be honest Barkley wasn't Barkley last year for much of the season. If we are looking at yeah but, it has to work both ways to be legitimate.
Then it all went south. The '79 team came back to earth and the 1980 Giants were a horror show. That was the low point, with the media declaring Simms a bust and idiot fans dumping trash on Phil and Diana's lawn. There was a brief uptick in the first half of the '81 season, peaking with a gutsy overtime win where Phil outdueled Steve Bartkowski (one of the top QBs in the League at the time). It collapsed over the next three weeks, as Simms began the run of injuries that nearly ended his NYG career. He was largely forgotten until 1984, and any notice he got was mostly to write him off.
Pre-Internet, a few beat writers and the NFL Today pregame show pretty much defined the narrative. For Simms until his sixth season, it was mostly grim, with a few hopeful blips. But he was never analyzed as minutely as Jones is; that's a function of the era.
I really don't see the case for definitive statements with Jones at this point. He's played well at times and poorly at times. He's not in an environment particularly conducive to success, but neither does he seem to be able to elevate the play of those around him. He is absolutely a work in progress, with reasons to be hopeful but also reasons to doubt him. I don't agree with the people who gush about him being a real franchise QB and I don't agree with people who have written him off. I think he should be at least a decent NFL starter, but I don't see him as having elite potential.
Well said. And if Jones displays league average starter or decent ceiling, if you have a chance to grab an elite talent like Lawrence or anyone similar over the couple of drafts the Giants absolutely have to do make that move.
League history has shown that more often than not, you do not win with league average starters. Of course there are exceptions like the Dilfer, Johnsons, and Foles of the world. However those team had elite talent around those qbs. And if you do win, you certainly do not stay in contention very long.
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quite capable of moving the team up and down the field. That’s certainly a notable positive.
But he’s not putting enough points on the board and makes too many mistakes that create points for the other team. And those mistakes are huge at shifting momentum the wrong way.
I think he’s at a critical stage in his career where he needs to prove he really does have the goods to win games in the NFL. Otherwise, we need to be ready to pivot and move on quickly. And not keep waiting...
Lack of skill players and an OL still trying to come together cloud the picture a bit. Surrounding circumstances are important to consider in my opinion.
Those are variables worth considering - true.
But when you invest a top 6 pick in a QB, I believe you are telling your base that this guy is a difference maker and can lift the play of others. He's not just a manager riding shotgun.
So I don't think it's at all unrealistic to expect Jones to make some chicken salad out of chicken sh-t at times. Because that is part of his job description...
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In comment 14983032 bw in dc said:
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quite capable of moving the team up and down the field. That’s certainly a notable positive.
But he’s not putting enough points on the board and makes too many mistakes that create points for the other team. And those mistakes are huge at shifting momentum the wrong way.
I think he’s at a critical stage in his career where he needs to prove he really does have the goods to win games in the NFL. Otherwise, we need to be ready to pivot and move on quickly. And not keep waiting...
Lack of skill players and an OL still trying to come together cloud the picture a bit. Surrounding circumstances are important to consider in my opinion.
Those are variables worth considering - true.
But when you invest a top 6 pick in a QB, I believe you are telling your base that this guy is a difference maker and can lift the play of others. He's not just a manager riding shotgun.
So I don't think it's at all unrealistic to expect Jones to make some chicken salad out of chicken sh-t at times. Because that is part of his job description...
Exactly, you don't invest a top 10 qb pick in a game manager. If hes a game manager, he should not have been picked top 10. But reality is we'll know much more by seasons end.
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In comment 14983032 bw in dc said:
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quite capable of moving the team up and down the field. That’s certainly a notable positive.
But he’s not putting enough points on the board and makes too many mistakes that create points for the other team. And those mistakes are huge at shifting momentum the wrong way.
I think he’s at a critical stage in his career where he needs to prove he really does have the goods to win games in the NFL. Otherwise, we need to be ready to pivot and move on quickly. And not keep waiting...
Lack of skill players and an OL still trying to come together cloud the picture a bit. Surrounding circumstances are important to consider in my opinion.
Those are variables worth considering - true.
But when you invest a top 6 pick in a QB, I believe you are telling your base that this guy is a difference maker and can lift the play of others. He's not just a manager riding shotgun.
So I don't think it's at all unrealistic to expect Jones to make some chicken salad out of chicken sh-t at times. Because that is part of his job description...
I agree, however some chicken feces smells worse than others. This overall is tough year for evaluations for young players with already a lot on their plate. I don't think it is unreasonable to believe that Jones has faired quite well considering the mess of an organization he joined.
He certainly has glaring weaknesses he must improve to get to the next level. To improve a weakness a good learning environment helps which includes other players doing the jobs they are paid to do. I have hope that Judge will at least take care of his part which in turn should help the players.
It wont last if he doesn't play better this season.
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In comment 14983037 crick n NC said:
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In comment 14983032 bw in dc said:
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quite capable of moving the team up and down the field. That’s certainly a notable positive.
But he’s not putting enough points on the board and makes too many mistakes that create points for the other team. And those mistakes are huge at shifting momentum the wrong way.
I think he’s at a critical stage in his career where he needs to prove he really does have the goods to win games in the NFL. Otherwise, we need to be ready to pivot and move on quickly. And not keep waiting...
Lack of skill players and an OL still trying to come together cloud the picture a bit. Surrounding circumstances are important to consider in my opinion.
Those are variables worth considering - true.
But when you invest a top 6 pick in a QB, I believe you are telling your base that this guy is a difference maker and can lift the play of others. He's not just a manager riding shotgun.
So I don't think it's at all unrealistic to expect Jones to make some chicken salad out of chicken sh-t at times. Because that is part of his job description...
Exactly, you don't invest a top 10 qb pick in a game manager. If hes a game manager, he should not have been picked top 10. But reality is we'll know much more by seasons end.
Not necessarily, there are assumptions built into that expectation.
As people have said on here, QB play for a young player is not neccecesarily linear week to week. And Jones was playing shorthanded yet again (SB, SS).
I would have liked to see a few deep shots, and I thought too many of his balls were in a danger zone of either being knocked down too easily or intercepted (which happened twice - one was correctly called back though).
That's not on Jones per say, receivers weren't getting great seperation. And some is play design. Seems we had better seperation in Week 1.
Eli- 2749 yds 17 tds and 17 ints (I didn't look at fumbles)
Jones- 4180 yds 26 td- 15 int
The big knock on Jones are the fumbles and I didn't look those stats up between the two. I will say, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast and his completion % was way lower than Jones's. I am not saying Jones is better than Eli but, I am saying the expectation on Jones seems higher than the rose colored view of Eli's first 14 games.
You can't really compare the two because even though it was not that long ago the game has dramatically changed since Eli first started playing
Jones had a higher ceiling (more potential to be better than Eli or Phil).
This is just insane, right? Eli's ceiling was perennial MVP candidate coming out of college. He was the number one pick.
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Jones had a higher ceiling (more potential to be better than Eli or Phil).
This is just insane, right? Eli's ceiling was perennial MVP candidate coming out of college. He was the number one pick.
Correct, I mean everyone considered Jones a reach where taken.
But DG deserves credit on this, Jones looks the part in nearly every way.
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(as starters)-
Eli- 2749 yds 17 tds and 17 ints (I didn't look at fumbles)
Jones- 4180 yds 26 td- 15 int
The big knock on Jones are the fumbles and I didn't look those stats up between the two. I will say, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast and his completion % was way lower than Jones's. I am not saying Jones is better than Eli but, I am saying the expectation on Jones seems higher than the rose colored view of Eli's first 14 games.
You can't really compare the two because even though it was not that long ago the game has dramatically changed since Eli first started playing
Agreed, but the Giants did an outstanding job of always giving Eli playmakers and protection those early years.......
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In comment 14983156 bw in dc said:
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In comment 14983037 crick n NC said:
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In comment 14983032 bw in dc said:
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quite capable of moving the team up and down the field. That’s certainly a notable positive.
But he’s not putting enough points on the board and makes too many mistakes that create points for the other team. And those mistakes are huge at shifting momentum the wrong way.
I think he’s at a critical stage in his career where he needs to prove he really does have the goods to win games in the NFL. Otherwise, we need to be ready to pivot and move on quickly. And not keep waiting...
Lack of skill players and an OL still trying to come together cloud the picture a bit. Surrounding circumstances are important to consider in my opinion.
Those are variables worth considering - true.
But when you invest a top 6 pick in a QB, I believe you are telling your base that this guy is a difference maker and can lift the play of others. He's not just a manager riding shotgun.
So I don't think it's at all unrealistic to expect Jones to make some chicken salad out of chicken sh-t at times. Because that is part of his job description...
Exactly, you don't invest a top 10 qb pick in a game manager. If hes a game manager, he should not have been picked top 10. But reality is we'll know much more by seasons end.
Not necessarily, there are assumptions built into that expectation.
My point was that if he continues his uneven play, evidence will point to the fact that he is likely not the solution.
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In comment 14983158 lax counsel said:
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In comment 14983156 bw in dc said:
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In comment 14983037 crick n NC said:
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In comment 14983032 bw in dc said:
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quite capable of moving the team up and down the field. That’s certainly a notable positive.
But he’s not putting enough points on the board and makes too many mistakes that create points for the other team. And those mistakes are huge at shifting momentum the wrong way.
I think he’s at a critical stage in his career where he needs to prove he really does have the goods to win games in the NFL. Otherwise, we need to be ready to pivot and move on quickly. And not keep waiting...
Lack of skill players and an OL still trying to come together cloud the picture a bit. Surrounding circumstances are important to consider in my opinion.
Those are variables worth considering - true.
But when you invest a top 6 pick in a QB, I believe you are telling your base that this guy is a difference maker and can lift the play of others. He's not just a manager riding shotgun.
So I don't think it's at all unrealistic to expect Jones to make some chicken salad out of chicken sh-t at times. Because that is part of his job description...
Exactly, you don't invest a top 10 qb pick in a game manager. If hes a game manager, he should not have been picked top 10. But reality is we'll know much more by seasons end.
Not necessarily, there are assumptions built into that expectation.
My point was that if he continues his uneven play, evidence will point to the fact that he is likely not the solution.
I don't think it's necessarily that simple, but it's possible I am over thinking it.
But if you believe that Judge knows what he is talking about, he has a lot of fairly experienced assistants then this is the time for 50+ guys to show they are quality NFL players, or have the wherewithal to achieve that level in a timely fashion.
Can't keep losing forever.
But if you believe that Judge knows what he is talking about, he has a lot of fairly experienced assistants then this is the time for 50+ guys to show they are quality NFL players, or have the wherewithal to achieve that level in a timely fashion.
Can't keep losing forever.
I understand your point, I don't see it your way. I have hope in Judge, but he's also a rookie coach dealing with all that is going on. I feel the circumstances are likely to have an effect, I am not sure how much, but being a rookie HC is something to consider even with the staff.
Simms had a lot better defense but not a lot of supporting talent on offense and I remember him getting beat up pretty badly the first few years there. Plus I don't feel like the coach had his back in the beginning. Eli came in as the #1 pick in the draft from a hall of fame family and really high expectations. He had turnover issues to begin with, but he had a running game (when running games mattered more) and an above average defense. I'm pretty happy with Jones and really don't expect the media to cover him any differently than the other two. He's a #6 pick. He should face scrutiny.
Watch one of the videos of Coach Judge Breaks Down Film from the games. This guy is on top of some pretty heady detail and that's just the few minutes we see. He comes off as a very good evaluator and won't waste time.
A bit disturbing, but he may be the only non-player in the building who is doing his job well enough.
Simms had a lot better defense but not a lot of supporting talent on offense and I remember him getting beat up pretty badly the first few years there. Plus I don't feel like the coach had his back in the beginning. Eli came in as the #1 pick in the draft from a hall of fame family and really high expectations. He had turnover issues to begin with, but he had a running game (when running games mattered more) and an above average defense. I'm pretty happy with Jones and really don't expect the media to cover him any differently than the other two. He's a #6 pick. He should face scrutiny.
I agree with everything you said, but I think the way they cover DJ is slightly different than Simms in one aspect. I never got the feeling that the media was rooting against Simms. I get that feeling with Jones. DJ was 2 TD short of the all-time rookie TD record. He threw a TD in every game he played in last year. He had several games where he threw over 4 TD's. Yet the national media focused on his fumbles and wondered if the Giants should have drafted Drew Lock. If Haskin's had DJ's number the media would have voted him onto the pro-bowl.
Even this season...
New offense, no training camp or preseason and playing against 2 of the top 5 def in the league and the national media is already pushing the Giants will draft Trevor Lawrence storyline.
Watch one of the videos of Coach Judge Breaks Down Film from the games. This guy is on top of some pretty heady detail and that's just the few minutes we see. He comes off as a very good evaluator and won't waste time.
A bit disturbing, but he may be the only non-player in the building who is doing his job well enough.
Thanks. I'll check it out.
But he’s not putting enough points on the board and makes too many mistakes that create points for the other team. And those mistakes are huge at shifting momentum the wrong way.
I think he’s at a critical stage in his career where he needs to prove he really does have the goods to win games in the NFL. Otherwise, we need to be ready to pivot and move on quickly. And not keep waiting...
Jones must be really really good.
For bw this is almost like a post about the second coming. But I'm assuming it's because he's sadly looking at his Haskins and thinking, "damn I'm jealous of jints central".
BBI is going to cover Jones like Eli right?
Let's hope Jones' streak starts Sunday
this will solve the fumbles.
Garrett and Judge need to get creative and training him for better pocket awareness. put a timer in practice, fuckin throw tomatoes at his face, whatever works!
some real X and Z receivers would help too. all our guys are little. we need to be creative with our patterns for these guys to work. Shurmur, as bad as he was, was good at writing up good plays to have a guy underneath open.
Jones must be really really good.
For bw this is almost like a post about the second coming. But I'm assuming it's because he's sadly looking at his Haskins and thinking, "damn I'm jealous of jints central".
It's been a while. Good to see you too... ;)
No big deal when you’re winning when you’re losing it is just magnified how average and boring we are as a team.
Damn talk to text!
Giants have been a horrible teams for almost a decade. Jones’ Rookie season was one of the few positives
Both Simms and Eli had rocky starts to their careers. But other than the turnovers, Jones is actually AHEAD of where both Simms and Eli were this many games into their careers. Simms was injured early on and Eli had a better OL than Jones does.
But Jones HAS to cut down on the fumbles or he'll never be successful. And FWIW, despite his working on it in the off-season, I still see some of the same bad habits he had last year. Primarily, he still takes that EXTRA, unwanted,'rhythm pat' on the football before he throws it. Not only is that an extra, unnecessary motion that wastes time, thats also where he's getting stripped a lot of the time.
Simms talks about this in his 1998 book, Phil Simms on Passing. Simms credits Jim Fassel for curing his fumbling problem (Eli never cured his) by reinforcing the correct pocket mechanics.
And it's NOT rocket science or new technique. Two hands on the football. Keep the football close to your body, right at your jersey numbers until you're ready to throw (Or run, in Jones' case). Simms/Fassel allows for ONE 'rhythm pat,' but more than one -- which is what DJ is doing, is a bad habit that opens you up for problems (including getting the ball stripped).
+100
GREAT post.
Don't put Jones on scholarship just because you want it to work out for him. If he doesn't improve drastically this dream we should use our high pick on his replacement. No point in wasting 2021 waiting for him.
Comparing Eli to jones is a waste of time. Comparing the 2005 giants to this team is easier to do. One team was 2-0 and won 11 games on the backs of a good OL, elite running game, very good pass catchers and solid defense. The HC was experienced. This team has a young qb, limited rb talent and a young OL that we hope improves. I think the D is a little underrated but still not on the level of 2005.
Compare jones to what you want a qb to do with this team. Lead, limit mistakes, keep us in most games and pull games out of his ass once in a while.
Don't put Jones on scholarship just because you want it to work out for him. If he doesn't improve drastically this dream we should use our high pick on his replacement. No point in wasting 2021 waiting for him.
The only similarity between Eli and Jones is the Cutler connection.
Eli had a much better arm and was just a more polished QB.
Jones is the better athlete by a large margin.
I have said all along that Jones's inability to really pressure a D with wide throws is a concern. Between the hashes Jones is solid. But it's much easier for the D to defend a narrower field when they don't really feel threatened with the full width of the field...
This idea that Eli was so much better than Jones early on is pure junk. In fact to my untrained eye Daniel Jones has been light years better than anything Eli look like in his first year or so
All that said, he needs to continue to improve and cut down on turnovers… And of course win games. Otherwise none of it matters.
Pulling for him otherwise this is a disaster rebuild.
The "all time rookie TD record" is meaningless considering Baker Mayfield broke it just a year before.
The fumbles are a big deal. You can want the guy to succeed and also realize he has a problem that will cost him a starting QB job if he doesn't fix it.
Daniel Jones has five fewer turnovers than Jameis Winston, another turnover-prone player who can put up some gaudy numbers at times but is also reckless with the football and who the NFL has decided isn't a starting-caliber QB.