I mean, Jones was good (not great) last week. The strip sack was a problem in waiting too long, but besides that he was on target for basically every throw. He improvised twice to keep drives alive with the third down toss to Lewis on the TD drive and the fourth down pass to Lewis on the last drive, Is he still processing the field a bit slower than we would like, maybe so. But,he is a baby in the league a new in this system. Moreovert, he got let down by drops on third down. Shepard on the first series of the game, Engram dropped a ball on third down (what else is new) when he was wide open on the possession after the INT in the third quarter at Chicago's 25 or 30, Ratley dropped a ball on the five. Engram fell on the INT. If those guys do their jobs we are most likely talking about a win than a loss. It shouldn't bother me that this is the way the media acts, but when I see other QB get every benefit of the doubt, it does bother me especially since I have seen this movie twice before with Simms and Eli (in particular where almost every mistake was magnified in the extreme).
The Giants are a consistent losing franchise that has started 0-2 (again). Jones has turned the ball over four times in two games. We are who everyone thinks we are, at least through two weeks.
The first step towards positive media coverage is Jones actually playing well consistently. Then start winning games. The rest will follow.
Also, Eli wasn’t covered like one of the great quarterbacks in the league because he wasn’t one of the great quarterbacks in the league. He was good, not great, and caught fire twice in the playoffs. I love Eli but that’s what he was.
3rd....news must be sold....bad news sells better.....NYC market is toughest
I think people and the media just have a hard time accepting that QB's (particularly young ones) need a lot of talent to work with so it is easier to just pile on the negativity.
I don't think it's nit-picking to look at Jones turnovers and criticize him. It has arguably cost the Giants a couple of games - or in the best light, decreased the chance of winning - in his short career. These turnovers are maddening and we don't yet see improvement.
See you just did it, what qb is measured by TD/INT-Fumbles, most just give the TD/INT score. Plus, other celebrated qbs fumble quite a lot, like Carson Wentz and the reason Wentz has been criticized so far this season is because his play besides the first half 20 minutes against Washington has been awful--he has missed many throws to wide open receivers and their is legitimate worry that he has regressed. In the past, though, any Wentz mistake was because his receivers stink and all they do is drop his balls. This week Jones was let down by his receivers on some of the most critical plays of the game and I saw no allowance from our crack reporters and analysts.
Very true. We must have had some great QB's and coaches here on BBI with all the evaluations of Jones.
No offense, but it's much more likely the players are aware of the media's opinions than BBI's opinions.
The Giants are a consistent losing franchise that has started 0-2 (again). Jones has turned the ball over four times in two games. We are who everyone thinks we are, at least through two weeks.
The first step towards positive media coverage is Jones actually playing well consistently. Then start winning games. The rest will follow.
Also, Eli wasn’t covered like one of the great quarterbacks in the league because he wasn’t one of the great quarterbacks in the league. He was good, not great, and caught fire twice in the playoffs. I love Eli but that’s what he was.
Jones turning the ball over 4 times is way overblown. He has 1 INT that was clearly a bad choice. The other Int was a great play by TJ Watt (though replays show the pass was not a great idea period). The fumble I am not concerned with. He couldn't run- the pocket in front was pushed back some and both tackles gave deep and collapsing rushes. He probably should have gone fetal position on that one but, he was trying to pass and Mack got him from behind. How many QB's did we blame when LT stripped them from behind?
The other Int against the Bears was on EE's slip. Not much you can do about that. You can't blame Jones for the losses as our defense can't stop anyone when it has to. The offense was sluggish all day against the Bears (at least through 3 qtrs) but, Jones was moving them later on.
Jones is not the problem here! We have little to no play makers and the ones we have are a tad overblown in their ability. I like Slayton but he is a #2 or #3 WR until he learns more routes and can't drop a 3rd down pass that would have extended a drive.
I don't think it's nit-picking to look at Jones turnovers and criticize him. It has arguably cost the Giants a couple of games - or in the best light, decreased the chance of winning - in his short career. These turnovers are maddening and we don't yet see improvement.
Simms didn't really do that until 1984.. Eli had a much better supporting cast and a defense that was able to keep us in many games.
I'm not looking for love and it is certainly fair to point out Jones's losing record, but I am looking for accuracy from people who are supposed to be accurate in their reporting (and analysis if that is the particular writer's assignment). Jones was good on Sunday (not great) but they made it seem like it was his fault the game turned out the way it did, which is not accurate at all. In the end, what I am arguing is that their assessment of Jones is inaccurate.
Here, the way this team has been assembled the last few years has been questionable at best. Signing older VETs or trading for older Vets, drafting a RB at top of the draft to play behind a shitty Oline and then draft a QB while still not having an Oline together.
This year feels different and though we have lost the first two games, we have been in both. The oline is coming along some and is Left side young and waiting on youth on the right side to supplant.
We need help at WR and a true (at least competent) two TE. Our defense needs FA additions and continued draft help.
Right. When we look back now, that 2005 team was pretty loaded compared to our 2020 team. Our play makers- Tiki, Toomer, Shockey and Burress.. Compare that to today (before injuries)- Barkley-Slayton/SS/Tate- EE... Minus Barkley, none of those guys would start ahead of the 2005 play makers. Then factor in the Oline.
The Giants are the best, the most classy, their QB is one of the greatest draft picks ever by their brilliant GM and wonderful owner who runs the football department.
The GM fell in love with this QB. He was not in love with any QBs in 2018. This is the most important thing. You need to focus on that.
Our GM knows important things. He knows which players are touched by god. No other GM can say that.
The Giants are in excellent hands and a model for successful sports organizations. We are lucky to be allowed to watch them.
All Giant fans should be focused on what we can do to make sure the Mara's know how grateful they are to pay their PSLs for the state of the art stadium they've built just for us. We are the envy of all NFL fans.
But he’s not putting enough points on the board and makes too many mistakes that create points for the other team. And those mistakes are huge at shifting momentum the wrong way.
I think he’s at a critical stage in his career where he needs to prove he really does have the goods to win games in the NFL. Otherwise, we need to be ready to pivot and move on quickly. And not keep waiting...
But he’s not putting enough points on the board and makes too many mistakes that create points for the other team. And those mistakes are huge at shifting momentum the wrong way.
I think he’s at a critical stage in his career where he needs to prove he really does have the goods to win games in the NFL. Otherwise, we need to be ready to pivot and move on quickly. And not keep waiting...
Lack of skill players and an OL still trying to come together cloud the picture a bit. Surrounding circumstances are important to consider in my opinion.
And yes, there were drops but its not like defenders aren't in the area, and they certainly can be overcome in a 60 minute football game. If the team is going to go to 3rd down and even 4th down so often then expect this to occur as the defense is going to win their fair share.
Jones is the #6 pick so more is going to be expected from him than say a Ratley. He is the one that has to lead this team to wins and overcome some adversity on the field. That is what wanna-be franchise QBs do.
And btw - picking Wentz as your media darling comparison is off-base as he is taking a good bit of heat from the football pundits and Eagle fans right now.
I remember early Simms getting hurt and finally playing and then finally winning, but I wasn't big into sports media at the time. And Eli WAS a great QB. It took him a while, and the Giants made sure his prime was as short as possible, but he WAS a great QB.
And yes, there were drops but its not like defenders aren't in the area, and they certainly can be overcome in a 60 minute football game. If the team is going to go to 3rd down and even 4th down so often then expect this to occur as the defense is going to win their fair share.
Jones is the #6 pick so more is going to be expected from him than say a Ratley. He is the one that has to lead this team to wins and overcome some adversity on the field. That is what wanna-be franchise QBs do.
And btw - picking Wentz as your media darling comparison is off-base as he is taking a good bit of heat from the football pundits and Eagle fans right now.
Wentz is taking "good bit of heat" because he deserves the heat. He threw into double coverage, missed men wide open in both games he played, he has fumbled the ball and has generally been crap, Maybe that is an overreaction as it is more likely than not that he will get back to better form, but he has not been very good so far this year. In his first year in the league, all you heard about were the drops his receivers made. Last year, all you heard about was the injuries he was dealing with at receiver as excuses (and then to laud him when he beat two of the worst pass defenses in football last season in three of those wins against the Giants and WFT). So, yeah, if Jones missed all those wide open guys as a fifth year starter I would think the heat is warranted.
Eli- 2749 yds 17 tds and 17 ints (I didn't look at fumbles)
Jones- 4180 yds 26 td- 15 int
The big knock on Jones are the fumbles and I didn't look those stats up between the two. I will say, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast and his completion % was way lower than Jones's. I am not saying Jones is better than Eli but, I am saying the expectation on Jones seems higher than the rose colored view of Eli's first 14 games.
Both Simms and Eli had rocky starts to their careers. But other than the turnovers, Jones is actually AHEAD of where both Simms and Eli were this many games into their careers. Simms was injured early on and Eli had a better OL than Jones does.
But Jones HAS to cut down on the fumbles or he'll never be successful. And FWIW, despite his working on it in the off-season, I still see some of the same bad habits he had last year. Primarily, he still takes that EXTRA, unwanted,'rhythm pat' on the football before he throws it. Not only is that an extra, unnecessary motion that wastes time, thats also where he's getting stripped a lot of the time.
Simms talks about this in his 1998 book, Phil Simms on Passing. Simms credits Jim Fassel for curing his fumbling problem (Eli never cured his) by reinforcing the correct pocket mechanics.
And it's NOT rocket science or new technique. Two hands on the football. Keep the football close to your body, right at your jersey numbers until you're ready to throw (Or run, in Jones' case). Simms/Fassel allows for ONE 'rhythm pat,' but more than one -- which is what DJ is doing, is a bad habit that opens you up for problems (including getting the ball stripped).
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him for the losses. Of course they will cover his turnovers as that is a continuing storyline that hasn't gotten better. Jones has looked okay so far, although I would like to see him extend the field a bit and hit some sideline throws to work the whole field.
And yes, there were drops but its not like defenders aren't in the area, and they certainly can be overcome in a 60 minute football game. If the team is going to go to 3rd down and even 4th down so often then expect this to occur as the defense is going to win their fair share.
Jones is the #6 pick so more is going to be expected from him than say a Ratley. He is the one that has to lead this team to wins and overcome some adversity on the field. That is what wanna-be franchise QBs do.
And btw - picking Wentz as your media darling comparison is off-base as he is taking a good bit of heat from the football pundits and Eagle fans right now.
Wentz is taking "good bit of heat" because he deserves the heat. He threw into double coverage, missed men wide open in both games he played, he has fumbled the ball and has generally been crap, Maybe that is an overreaction as it is more likely than not that he will get back to better form, but he has not been very good so far this year. In his first year in the league, all you heard about were the drops his receivers made. Last year, all you heard about was the injuries he was dealing with at receiver as excuses (and then to laud him when he beat two of the worst pass defenses in football last season in three of those wins against the Giants and WFT). So, yeah, if Jones missed all those wide open guys as a fifth year starter I would think the heat is warranted.
I think we agree that Wentz hasn't looked good this year. But I think you are overstating the excuses he has been given, and possibly understating how he has overcome a lot of that by good play (and sometimes very good) too.
And its not Wentz fault the Giants and WFT pass def aren't good. Not suggesting it isn't true but not really compelling either.
You may not like it but that's what you see until they start winning.
Eli- 2749 yds 17 tds and 17 ints (I didn't look at fumbles)
Jones- 4180 yds 26 td- 15 int
The big knock on Jones are the fumbles and I didn't look those stats up between the two. I will say, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast and his completion % was way lower than Jones's. I am not saying Jones is better than Eli but, I am saying the expectation on Jones seems higher than the rose colored view of Eli's first 14 games.
Is there a statistical comparison using "garbage time" as a metric?
I really don't see the case for definitive statements with Jones at this point. He's played well at times and poorly at times. He's not in an environment particularly conducive to success, but neither does he seem to be able to elevate the play of those around him. He is absolutely a work in progress, with reasons to be hopeful but also reasons to doubt him. I don't agree with the people who gush about him being a real franchise QB and I don't agree with people who have written him off. I think he should be at least a decent NFL starter, but I don't see him as having elite potential.
Otherwise Jones has shown a lot to like and the INTs have not been a problem, but the Fumbles have been... going back to the first pre-season he appears in... he will either clean that up or he will become someone's back up.
Two things about that:
1)Eli's rookie season was the last season before Bill Polian sobbed to the league about the Patriots defense, leading to the rule changes that drove the explosion in passing offense. It was harder to play QB back then.
2)Very different offenses. Jones doesn't throw deep nearly as much as Eli did.
Statistics aside... Jones 'looks' MUCH better than Eli or Simms over the same period of time as a starter. I don't think that's even a debate. The question then becomes, were Eli and Simms that bad, or is Jones just that good. IMHO, the answer is somewhere in between. Jones had a higher ceiling (more potential to be better than Eli or Phil), but his progress is slower than I expected.
How is he being treated differently than Wentz, Darnold, Trubisky, etc. by the media? Should the media give Jones the benefit of the doubt simply because BBI says he resembles a franchise qb? Reality is, he may not be anything better than a JAG qb or worse. Giants won't win in either case.
Wentz is measurably worse.
The good news is that these ratings aren't set in stone. But every game he plays adds to the evidence of how good he's ever going to be.
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I will say, Eli had a MUCH better supporting cast and his completion % was way lower than Jones's.
Two things about that:
1)Eli's rookie season was the last season before Bill Polian sobbed to the league about the Patriots defense, leading to the rule changes that drove the explosion in passing offense. It was harder to play QB back then.
2)Very different offenses. Jones doesn't throw deep nearly as much as Eli did.
Not arguing with you about your points, or another poster earlier asking about garbage time but, we are always looking for reasons why stats don't match but only in a negative mindset. The fact is Eli had Coughlin- Gilbride- Tiki, Toomer, Shockey, Burress a solid oline and a defense to get him the ball back. Jones hasn't had any of that minus Barkley and to be honest Barkley wasn't Barkley last year for much of the season. If we are looking at yeah but, it has to work both ways to be legitimate.
Then it all went south. The '79 team came back to earth and the 1980 Giants were a horror show. That was the low point, with the media declaring Simms a bust and idiot fans dumping trash on Phil and Diana's lawn. There was a brief uptick in the first half of the '81 season, peaking with a gutsy overtime win where Phil outdueled Steve Bartkowski (one of the top QBs in the League at the time). It collapsed over the next three weeks, as Simms began the run of injuries that nearly ended his NYG career. He was largely forgotten until 1984, and any notice he got was mostly to write him off.
Pre-Internet, a few beat writers and the NFL Today pregame show pretty much defined the narrative. For Simms until his sixth season, it was mostly grim, with a few hopeful blips. But he was never analyzed as minutely as Jones is; that's a function of the era.
I really don't see the case for definitive statements with Jones at this point. He's played well at times and poorly at times. He's not in an environment particularly conducive to success, but neither does he seem to be able to elevate the play of those around him. He is absolutely a work in progress, with reasons to be hopeful but also reasons to doubt him. I don't agree with the people who gush about him being a real franchise QB and I don't agree with people who have written him off. I think he should be at least a decent NFL starter, but I don't see him as having elite potential.
Well said. And if Jones displays league average starter or decent ceiling, if you have a chance to grab an elite talent like Lawrence or anyone similar over the couple of drafts the Giants absolutely have to do make that move.
League history has shown that more often than not, you do not win with league average starters. Of course there are exceptions like the Dilfer, Johnsons, and Foles of the world. However those team had elite talent around those qbs. And if you do win, you certainly do not stay in contention very long.
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quite capable of moving the team up and down the field. That’s certainly a notable positive.
But he’s not putting enough points on the board and makes too many mistakes that create points for the other team. And those mistakes are huge at shifting momentum the wrong way.
I think he’s at a critical stage in his career where he needs to prove he really does have the goods to win games in the NFL. Otherwise, we need to be ready to pivot and move on quickly. And not keep waiting...
Lack of skill players and an OL still trying to come together cloud the picture a bit. Surrounding circumstances are important to consider in my opinion.
Those are variables worth considering - true.
But when you invest a top 6 pick in a QB, I believe you are telling your base that this guy is a difference maker and can lift the play of others. He's not just a manager riding shotgun.
So I don't think it's at all unrealistic to expect Jones to make some chicken salad out of chicken sh-t at times. Because that is part of his job description...