Archived Thread

Unconventional thoughts re offense

gary_from_chester : 9/26/2020 1:42 pm

This may sound a little crazy but hear me out. Agree or disagree it could make for some fun discussion.

Preamble - We have seen some ‘sea changes’ in many sports, much of it driven by analytics. In basketball , it used to be an ‘inside out’ sport, now 3 pointers predominate. In baseball, the long ball and defensive shifts have mostly replaced contact and the running game.

The trend in football on both sides of the ball is speed. Smaller LBers who can cover, edge rushers, TE who run like deer. The ‘amoeba’ defense the Giants employ in situations with no DL.

So, what’s my crazy idea? Try out (in limited situations) 11 men on offense with no linemen. The idea is just to get the ball in play and use 11 speeed guys to possibly make an explosive play, similar to an end of game kick return with laterals galore. If you get the ball moving quickly and then all 11 guys are a threat, ‘blocking’ is more a matter of interference than power. Imagine the havoc this could create for a defense if strategically employed in certain situations during a game.

I know it sounds crazy, but once upon a time the forward pass sounded crazy to folks. Flame away. If you disagree, call me all the names that make you feel better...but I challenge you to think about trends and where the game is heading and come up with your own unconventional thoughts.

Having said all this, I’d be happy as shit if the Giants played old school smash mouth football and beat the 9ers tomorrow with ground and pound and a punishing D.

I'm pretty sure that's illegal.

robbieballs2003 : 9/26/2020 1:46 pm : link

There was an offense in HS and maybe college called the A11 offense, I believe. It had a bunch if people all line up 1 yard from the line of scrimmage. 7 players stepped up to the LoS and snapped the ball. The defense had little time to identify who was eligible.

Here is an article on it.

robbieballs2003 : 9/26/2020 1:50 pm : link

.
Link - ( New Window )

Not illegal

gary_from_chester : 9/26/2020 1:51 pm : link

Your ‘linemen’ are smaller speed guys. The objective is to get the ball in play quickly. A sweep toss, a pass into the flat, etc. once that happens anyone can receive a lateral. You have 11 speed guys on the field for this play.

RE: Not illegal

robbieballs2003 : 9/26/2020 1:53 pm : link

In comment 14984595 gary_from_chester said:

Quote:

When you said 11 speed guys I am assuming 11 non-linemen with non-linemen numbers.

I didn’t account for lineman numbers

gary_from_chester : 9/26/2020 2:00 pm : link

But assume you can assign lineman numbers to guys who might normally be WR or RB or KR or TE/LB for this scenario. The idea is not to ‘deceive’ the defense about who is eligible; the idea is to get the ball in play quickly and have 11 speed guys on the field to potentially use laterals and get an explosive play. Only to be used in certain game situations and field positions.

the speed guys

uther99 : 9/26/2020 2:02 pm : link

on the OL will get destroyed by DL and be useless. So why not just 5 WR set?

Not useless

gary_from_chester : 9/26/2020 2:09 pm : link

Ball is snapped to the QB who immediately throws a quick pass to the wideout. The wideout quickly laterals to a ‘lineman’ against the flow of pursuit, who is really a 4.4 RB. Think of it as a jailbreak, fast break boom or bust play. I am thinking multiple laterals to really fast guys. The entire aim of the play is huge gain. Again, only in certain situations against certain defensive schemes / players. Everyone on the field is a threat, requires a different way of thinking about offensive play.

You can't base an offense off of laterals

robbieballs2003 : 9/26/2020 2:12 pm : link

and some of these defensive players run just as fast.

RE: I didn’t account for lineman numbers

Del Shofner : 9/26/2020 2:14 pm : link

In comment 14984609 gary_from_chester said:

Quote:

I know players with lineman numbers have to report if they are going to be eligible as receivers (a la Richie Seubert used to do). I don't know if players with non-lineman numbers have to report in order to play OL. I don't think so - they just would be ineligible to catch a forward pass. (I think - can't say I know for sure.). Anyway, it seems like a pretty crazy idea in terms of blocking - there basically wouldn't be any.

Pretty sure

Tim in VA : 9/26/2020 2:16 pm : link

only 6 players are "eligible" to handle the ball. It's why in goalline situations the extra OL have to declare themselves as eligible before the play

Yep I said it was crazy

gary_from_chester : 9/26/2020 2:18 pm : link

But in line with trends in the game. Would love to see it tried in a college game. Novel approaches usually start there before the pros.

RE: Not useless

uther99 : 9/26/2020 2:19 pm : link

In comment 14984613 gary_from_chester said:

Quote:

I guess I don't see the "linemen" getting off the DL easily. It would require intricate timing which will be disrupted

Once the ball is in play and out of the QB hands

gary_from_chester : 9/26/2020 2:22 pm : link

everyone is eligible for a lateral. Only intended for limited situations and against ertain schemes / personnel. Not to be an offense ‘based on laterals’.

Rugby?

JohnG in Albany : 9/26/2020 2:28 pm : link

Maybe you could come up with something fun for a play or two...

Big Blue Blogger : 9/26/2020 2:30 pm : link

... utilizing Crowder (former RB), Brunson, Coughlin, and Brown, plus a few regular offensive players. I'd be skeptical about any package with fewer than five linemen, though. Speed doesn't matter much if you can't get to the edge, and it's pretty hard to outrun NFL DEs, LBs and safeties. You kind of have to block them.

Hey, we've been playing without linemen....

MOOPS : 9/26/2020 2:50 pm : link

for years and it's gotten us nowhere.

I think you're 100% right!

TC : 9/26/2020 3:17 pm : link

It DOES sound crazy! ;-)

The broader issue with gimmick packages is practice time.

Big Blue Blogger : 9/26/2020 3:58 pm : link

It’s one thing for Sean Payton to spend twenty minutes tinkering with ways to use Taysom Hill and Deonte Harris. Most of his key players can run the whole playbook in their sleep. Judge and Garrett don’t have that luxury.

Something I wonder about...unconventional as well

Buzzard64 : 9/26/2020 4:16 pm : link

When an onside kick is called for, a skilled soccer style kicker could drive the ball as hard as possible directly at an opposing player. A hard line drive....just looking to bounce off or touch the opposing team. Legal? Worth a try? The chance of recovery would be as good as what is tried now.

Buzzard64

gary_from_chester : 9/26/2020 5:50 pm : link

That’s an interesting thought. Here is another one - for onside kick utilize a dropkick. Kick it high enough and short enough so that the co er team has time to settle under the ball. Basically becomes a jump ball for possession. Perfectly legal as far as I can tell. Only question is can you dropkick about 30 yards with 4 second hang time?

Link:

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/kickoff-rules/

Just look at the film and watch any DLineman run past Engram

stoneman : 9/26/2020 6:08 pm : link

multiply that by 11, and you get one quick play - DOA.

Stoneman

gary_from_chester : 9/26/2020 6:24 pm : link

This was just some fun out of the box thinking.

We will live and die this year based primarily on two things - how much DJ develops and how well the OL gels. I think we will have a slightly above average D. I

I think it’s going to come down to do we get adequate play from the center position. I like Gates makeup but learning a new position on the fly is a tall order. We shall see.

Isn't this more or less what a kickoff return is

.McL. : 9/26/2020 10:46 pm : link

Just with everybody close to the line of scrimmage.

Once everybody converges on a kickoff, how much further does the ball carrier usually get?