here are my thoughts:
*The Giants are undermanned at Wide Receiver, Runningback, and Cornerback.
*Daniel Jones *is not* the problem. I saw the two mistakes he made, the botched handoff to engram and the pick to engram that was on him. The rest of the game, there wasn't much he could do, no one was open, there was no running game, there was not much he could do but run it himself, which he did effectively. I am still really high on Jones.
*The 49ers are a vastly better coached team at this point, I don't blame this on Judge, there were just nuances that they have perfected over the years because they are a veteran team that we haven't time to perfect. The runningback coming out of the backfield, waiting just long enough for coverage to vacate the middle of the field before going out into his route is one example; another is those sweep plays where they almost act like screens, the timing of it made it seem like a typical run to one side, but the o-line got off there blocks just in time to bait the d-line to one side, and then totally changed the direction, and left open room for the long untouched runs to the sidelines.
Another play I saw that was just a mental error was Holmes covering the wrong receiver for a second, and the slot receiver just crossing over and he had to play catchup.
The other thing that just gets me is how fast other teams are picking up our run plays, its like they know its coming, like a pitching tipping his pitches. Not sure if we're giving off a tell, or if the defense is just not scared by our passing game at all.
Anyway, on offense, they were tricking us again and again and again, not with just play design, or scheme, but just these little tricks.
These kind of tricks, they kind of reminded me of the blitz packages that Spags used to cook up, if you remember in super bowl 42, kawika mitchell faked going into coverage, the pats o-linemen then went into their set, and then Mitchell pivoted back into blitz and Brady was done. They were doing these kind of tricks on virtually all the plays.
A lot of people are saying we have NO talent. I don't buy it, other than really at one cornerback spot (Yiadom and Ballentine or are not starters) and WR where we have literally one threat (Slayton) who is probably a #2 receiver.
It seems like this team is far away, I think we have a ways to go, but there is talent, we just need to gel more, and add a few players.
If the 49ers can dominant another NFL team without 8 starters, that is much more on coaching than it is on talent. They did not out talent us yesterday, they outcoached us. The 49ers are just a very smart team.
Give Kyle Shanahan credit.
Nothing good EVER happens when you throw the ball to Engram. LB ran a much better route than he did.
I think you need certain fundamental aspects to give a young QB a chance. After a couple years the good ones improve their game and then they can overcome some deficiencies of the team but they still need talent.
Eli's great year of 2011. Look at his receivers and RB's he had and that OL was still far better than this one (at this point at least). This was also his 8th year. His second year in 2005 he had a far superior supporting cast to this team Jones leads. You can do this exercise with most QB's imo.
I have no problem admitting if Jones was a mistake. Hard for meto do that with what he is working with imo.
Hard to find answers when there is just no talent on this team. Gettleman set everybody up for failure
Yep, better man than me.
This is a fair question, but I would ask that we keep everything in perspective. Yesterday was Jones' 15th NFL start...without his best player (SB), most consistent receiver (SS), and a "developing" Oline and no running game. Eli Manning, with a far superior team, did not really develop until the end of his 4th season. Can we at least wait until the end of this year to make a full review of where Jones is?
Slayton would be WR3 on most playoff teams, Martinez would be a 2 down linebacker at best and Lawrence would probably play even less snaps on a team with some real pass rushers.
For me, this is the most frustrating issue. They spend lots of assets over the last few years to remake this OL, and not only has it not improved, it has somehow become worse. I have never seen a worse OL group in my life
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do we start saying Jones is part the problem? He's a damn turnover machine and its an issue that only seems to be getting worse. I know it was only 1 play but that INT before the half is a huge red flag
This is a fair question, but I would ask that we keep everything in perspective. Yesterday was Jones' 15th NFL start...without his best player (SB), most consistent receiver (SS), and a "developing" Oline and no running game. Eli Manning, with a far superior team, did not really develop until the end of his 4th season. Can we at least wait until the end of this year to make a full review of where Jones is?
As frustrated as I am with this team, I do agree we need to give Jones more time. The problem is, with this "supporting cast" around him, he doesnt have much of a chance for growth. I dont think he was necessarily the right choice from the beginning, but they have really set him up for failure
madeinstars : 8:52 am : link : reply
If you ignore the huge missed throw from Jones to Engram somewhere in the 2nd half.
yeah, that was a bad throw, but it wasn't an INT. Jones is a pretty accurate QB, he's not perfect.
I'm just sharing my opinion, I really think the lack off-season and lack of continuity is killing us right now. I think we will start to see better play a little bit later in the year.
It sucks we have to wait this long, but I do believe in Judge, and I think they will get better.
I have to give the 9ers credit on preparing a very smoothly run team. They made literally no mistakes the entire game, other than their snapper.
I am all for calling out any concerns or flags on Jones, but, let's again remember he has yet to play a full season and is playing on a team that is completely hamstrung offensively. We have no ability to run the ball, our OL continues to struggle, and our skill players are getting very little separation.
There are a very select few QBs who could find success in this environment (maybe a Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers type) - I'm not sure any of them would fare much better. It is a team game, and the team around our QB is not very good. It forces Jones to play perfectly - and that is far too much pressure and responsibility for a 2nd year QB with no help.
And yes, Shanahan and his coaches had their roster full of backups nicely prepared to embarrass our starters.
The guy has a ton of talent, and yes he is still young. But the unforced errors week in and week out are getting hard to throw in the category of “correctable” since he doesn’t ever seem to correct them/
The guy has a ton of talent, and yes he is still young. But the unforced errors week in and week out are getting hard to throw in the category of “correctable” since he doesn’t ever seem to correct them/
Exactly. He has to figure out how to correct this problem quickly or his tenure here is going to be short
What are you talking about? No more excuses, even though the only chance this offense had at being decent went down with Barkley's ACL?
How many years of excuses did we allow Eli Manning? And he actually had some semblance of offensive talent around him to work with.
It wouldn't matter what QB you put on this team. Very, very few are likely to turn this around without an injection of talent at basically every position on the offense.
He may not have that long if Trevor Lawrence is sitting there staring them in the face
There is a serious lack of talent evaluation and incompetence in roster building the last xxx years.
We shipped out our most talented players to build a 'culture'... not sure that accomplished much more than just having a less talented team.
2013: Seattle rushing 142 ypg
Take a look at Wentz first two years. Look at the struggles he is having now. Wonder why.
Jones has to be better (agree). Jones has to stop with the turnovers (agree). Jones needs more help (?) I guess you either think he does or the expectation is he should overcome basic fundamental flaws in this team right now.
No one.
We've brought in some good building blocks at the foundational level, and I see glimmers of hope on both lines, but without momentum changers - particularly on defense - we won't win games.
The laundry list of needs extends about three pages. But to my eyes the truly glaring needs are at LB and ER, without which neither the run nor the pass can be stopped effectively, particularly on third down. These must be addressed early in the 2021 draft - and it blows that we have to talk about that sad date as early as September 28.
The traits I expect Jones to consistently show, like smarts and accuracy, are no longer showing up. What are we gonna do? Realistically? Reboot this Jones thing for another year after we go 2-14? If DG is getting fired, which he should be, new GM picks his qb. It’s that simple. No GM in their right mind is picking Jones after the film he just put out there. He looks like a backup QB right now.
The only improvement I see in DJ is that he is more prone to take off and run when the pocket collapses. Last year, he stood in the pocket too long with no awareness and would get strip sacked.
He's fucking awful. The next play he makes for this team will be his first.
And we cut Connelly for this turd? WTF is wrong with this organization???
Nicks isn't coming through that door
Shockey isn't coming through that door
Toomer isn't coming through that door
Cruz isn't coming through that door
Nor an established line or running game
He was still learning and improving slowly. More importantly, the guys in charge of putting a quality supporting cast around Eli were “good”. They were infinitely better than Dave Gettleman.
Starting lineup in Eli’s 15th career start:
Eli
Tiki & Jim Finn
Plaxico & Amani Toomer
Shockey
Petitgout, Diehl, O’Hara, Snee, & McKenzie
No fucking Nick Gates there. The people on BBI who think Jones should be succeeding despite the mess around him (as if other QBs are doing this) are clueless.
Jones is progressing better than Eli has in their first 15 games and Jones has a much worse supporting cast.
That's not even in question.
We were having the same discussion from late 2005 to basically before the playoff run in 2007. Eli was AWFUL for the better part of 2007, but he actually had a better team around him.
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at this point in his career?
He was still learning and improving slowly. More importantly, the guys in charge of putting a quality supporting cast around Eli were “good”. They were infinitely better than Dave Gettleman.
Starting lineup in Eli’s 15th career start:
Eli
Tiki & Jim Finn
Plaxico & Amani Toomer
Shockey
Petitgout, Diehl, O’Hara, Snee, & McKenzie
No fucking Nick Gates there. The people on BBI who think Jones should be succeeding despite the mess around him (as if other QBs are doing this) are clueless.
Osi, Strahan, Tuck, Pierce, big Fred Robbins, etc.
The defense was vastly better back then. By leap years.
He finished 2005 top five in the league in yards as well as TD passes. His rating wasn't great but he finished middle-of-the-league in other advanced stats. Eli actually started the year really well and then got the yips in the last couple of games culminating in the Panthers debacle. That was a great Giants team nonetheless, probably the second best regular season Giants team of Coughlin's tenure.
As we know, that team had tons more talent then this one, yet even controlling for that, I'd say Eli looked much better in his first three games of 2005 than DJ has this season in what was a tougher league for young QBs then. By week 3 of 2005, the Giants played the Chargers and went down 21-3 in the first quarter. Eli led three scoring drives in the 2nd quarter cutting the deficit to 21-20 at the half. He made a ton of dynamic throws during that comeback. Again, even controlling for talent, we're just not seeing that range of throwing talent from DJ this season.
Agreed, time to bench this dude. He does not have the mentality to play fast and he is physically weak.
I know a lot of us overrated Connelly, but there is no way he could have been worse than Downs.
The traits I expect Jones to consistently show, like smarts and accuracy, are no longer showing up. What are we gonna do? Realistically? Reboot this Jones thing for another year after we go 2-14? If DG is getting fired, which he should be, new GM picks his qb. It’s that simple. No GM in their right mind is picking Jones after the film he just put out there. He looks like a backup QB right now.
New OC, New QB Coach......TANNEY?????:). A lot of change there from season to season. I dont pretend to know all that goes in to playing QB in the NFL, but I would think that the answer to the question lies in one of those three areas.
And there's the little thing that for all his warts, Eli was a winning QB from year two on...
Nicks isn't coming through that door
Shockey isn't coming through that door
Toomer isn't coming through that door
Cruz isn't coming through that door
Nor an established line or running game
Actually this is a good argument why you don't draft a QB high in the draft without those pieces in place.
WTH??? It was his 15th game with his second offensive scheme, all new coaches, and a revamped oline. Not to mention no running game and his #1 back and WR out with injuries.
He wasn't perfect he turned the ball over a lot. he made some gutsy throws , some many would regard as foolish. Some end up off the top of someone's helmet in the last, game winning drive of a SB game.
That is a big difference between Eli and this guy. Eli understood there are 4 qtrs. in a football game. This guy is always forcing things early and getting the Giants playing from behind (and losing a lot of games). When was the last time the Giants won a game? When Eli started against the Dolphins? That is pathetic.
Look at other QBs in the league doing it. What about that guy J Herbert for the Chargers. 5 minutes before game time. 3 offenses in 4 years. Comes out and played lights out last week. I didn't watch this week but the stats looked decent. They certainly didn't lose to another teams practice squad. I know that.
No, he won't win games single-handidly with no playmakers and a line that could be described as makeshift at best. But he has to stop making unforced errors week in and week out.
That horrible pitch to Engram yesterday was not because of the line or lack of playmakers. It was a costly physical mistake that was unforced. Same thing with the interception. He was not forcing a throw into traffic trying to score a last second tying touchdown. He forced a ball to a guy who was blanketed and he placed it badly putting the niners in FG range. Throwing that ball into the ground would have been a much better decision.
Those are just examples from this week. This team can't overcome the QB making 2-3 poor decision a week. He doesn't need to win games by himself, but he does need to stop being one of the reasons they lost.
+1, he was terrible. I can't believe we cut Connelly for this guy, who made that decision?
Free agents tough to bring to a losing team without overpaying - but he has done very poorly there -
Not trading down a la Johnson and BB - arrogant and stupid
We need help almost everywhere
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He’s at the beginning of his second year. It takes time to develop as a QB, time as I. Years, not weeks.
He may not have that long if Trevor Lawrence is sitting there staring them in the face
I'm still waiting (not from you, specifically) but from anyone who can honestly tell me how much better Lawrence would do with this tragic cast around him.
No one's open when Slayton's doubled. Shepherd could get open but he's injured. No Barkley. No tight end worth a damn.
I'm just curious why people think Trevor would do so much better.
I'd argue drafting Trevor would be a mistake right now.
Let's draft a big bodied WR who can actually catch the ball in tight quarters.
Free agents tough to bring to a losing team without overpaying - but he has done very poorly there -
Not trading down a la Johnson and BB - arrogant and stupid
We need help almost everywhere
I don't think many people are blaming Jones as the sole problem. I do think it is fair to say he is part of the problem currently. Regardless of the players around him, he is making bad decisions, bad throws, and is careless with the ball repeatedly.
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In comment 14987778 cosmicj said:
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He’s at the beginning of his second year. It takes time to develop as a QB, time as I. Years, not weeks.
He may not have that long if Trevor Lawrence is sitting there staring them in the face
I'm still waiting (not from you, specifically) but from anyone who can honestly tell me how much better Lawrence would do with this tragic cast around him.
No one's open when Slayton's doubled. Shepherd could get open but he's injured. No Barkley. No tight end worth a damn.
I'm just curious why people think Trevor would do so much better.
I'd argue drafting Trevor would be a mistake right now.
Let's draft a big bodied WR who can actually catch the ball in tight quarters.
Lawrence's ceiling is a top 5, superstar NFL QB, and the best QB prospect coming out in a while. Jones might be a nice player down the line but his ceiling is nowhere near Lawrence. They arent in the same tier
Giants won NFC East
He wasn't perfect he turned the ball over a lot. he made some gutsy throws , some many would regard as foolish. Some end up off the top of someone's helmet in the last, game winning drive of a SB game.
That is a big difference between Eli and this guy. Eli understood there are 4 qtrs. in a football game. This guy is always forcing things early and getting the Giants playing from behind (and losing a lot of games). When was the last time the Giants won a game? When Eli started against the Dolphins? That is pathetic.
Look at other QBs in the league doing it. What about that guy J Herbert for the Chargers. 5 minutes before game time. 3 offenses in 4 years. Comes out and played lights out last week. I didn't watch this week but the stats looked decent. They certainly didn't lose to another teams practice squad. I know that.
Plenty of games were lost due to Eli Manning turnovers. Playoff games, too.
The first round pick is not supposed to fix the team and put them in the Superbowl. You pick the best players and then surround them with talent the best you can.
Yes it would be great to spend 5 years drafting stud players at every position and then adding the QB. But you only get a shot at the best QB prospect if your team is utter garbage.
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In comment 14987778 cosmicj said:
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He’s at the beginning of his second year. It takes time to develop as a QB, time as I. Years, not weeks.
He may not have that long if Trevor Lawrence is sitting there staring them in the face
I'm still waiting (not from you, specifically) but from anyone who can honestly tell me how much better Lawrence would do with this tragic cast around him.
No one's open when Slayton's doubled. Shepherd could get open but he's injured. No Barkley. No tight end worth a damn.
I'm just curious why people think Trevor would do so much better.
I'd argue drafting Trevor would be a mistake right now.
Let's draft a big bodied WR who can actually catch the ball in tight quarters.
What makes jones so special? If you over draft him and over draft a running back and you get rid of all your players that came before including one of the most dynamic WR the Giants ever had; you shouldn't be surprised that your QB has no one to throw to. That is on Gettleman. And Jones is Gettleman's QB. The same rules applied to Eli when he got benched ; those same rules should apply to Jones. BEFORE YOU pay him big bucks especially.
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I cannot ever remember Eli basically losing games from turnovers. It is not the stats it is the time of the game. I have never seen Eli throw an int with like a minute left in half that gave the team a short field and put them in a double digit hole. Never seen him throw a lateral pass instead of just taking the sack. Never seen pocket presense so bad that a linebacker on the opposing team just comes up ripps the ball from him and runs in for a TD.
He wasn't perfect he turned the ball over a lot. he made some gutsy throws , some many would regard as foolish. Some end up off the top of someone's helmet in the last, game winning drive of a SB game.
That is a big difference between Eli and this guy. Eli understood there are 4 qtrs. in a football game. This guy is always forcing things early and getting the Giants playing from behind (and losing a lot of games). When was the last time the Giants won a game? When Eli started against the Dolphins? That is pathetic.
Look at other QBs in the league doing it. What about that guy J Herbert for the Chargers. 5 minutes before game time. 3 offenses in 4 years. Comes out and played lights out last week. I didn't watch this week but the stats looked decent. They certainly didn't lose to another teams practice squad. I know that.
Plenty of games were lost due to Eli Manning turnovers. Playoff games, too.
I can't think of any that were as boneheaded as Jones. maybe you can elighten us. And how many game winning drives last minute drives has Eli also done? It is like saying Babe Ruth sucked because he struck out a lot. Completely ignoring the fact he hit a lot of homeruns too.
I really don't know what you are trying to argue.
Take the touchback and we start on the 25!
It’s that simple.
I really don't know what you are trying to argue.
I think the point is people can’t make getting rid of Jones solely about turnovers when we watched a 2 time Super Bowl MVP throw the 2nd, 4th, and 1st most interceptions his first full 3 seasons. (Not to mention those fumbles Eli had from diving instead of sliding.) Getting to that point was a process for Eli and anyone who thinks they saw enough greatness in him 15 starts in to be patient through the growing pains is simply lying. DJ obviously needs to cut down on turnovers, especially fumbles. It would be great if the running game, protection, or defense took some pressure off of him.
As for the people who say “He hasn’t shown anything”, that’s ridiculous. With the ineptitude of Gettleman and the availability of Lawrence, Jones might not get the necessary time to develop here. If he doesn’t, it will have been more about the franchise’s failures than his own.
Take the touchback and we start on the 25!
Ballentine has no value on this team. He didn't see a single snap on defense because he sucks so much, and then he consistently fucked the team by his boneheaded KO returns.
I agree, he is 15 games into his career. Second system, no offseason, and had his full starting offense for a whooping 2 quarters.
I really don't know what you are trying to argue.
I am saying that Eli Manning had his fare share of stupid turnovers even until his last game ever. He threw 3 WTF interceptions, luckily the Dolphins didn't capitalize.
I'm saying that people were willing to cut Eli slack for YEARS. Jones basically getting 6 months.
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So your argument is Eli had turnovers, so it should be ok for Jones to have them as well? By that logic shouldn't any QB who turns the ball over be just fine?
I really don't know what you are trying to argue.
I think the point is people can’t make getting rid of Jones solely about turnovers when we watched a 2 time Super Bowl MVP throw the 2nd, 4th, and 1st most interceptions his first full 3 seasons. (Not to mention those fumbles Eli had from diving instead of sliding.) Getting to that point was a process for Eli and anyone who thinks they saw enough greatness in him 15 starts in to be patient through the growing pains is simply lying. DJ obviously needs to cut down on turnovers, especially fumbles. It would be great if the running game, protection, or defense took some pressure off of him.
As for the people who say “He hasn’t shown anything”, that’s ridiculous. With the ineptitude of Gettleman and the availability of Lawrence, Jones might not get the necessary time to develop here. If he doesn’t, it will have been more about the franchise’s failures than his own.
I saw signs of brilliance in Eli early. He always had that deep throw ability. He showed signs of brilliant play early in games against tough defenses. In fact #1 rated defenses. I have seen him make a run for a super bowl and win it with a pro bowl tight end sitting in the press box -- which many argued they played better without. I have seen him do it with a pro bowl running back retire the year before as well, and win same said super bowl.
It is nearly impossible to have pro bowlers at every post. Saquon does not matter. Running back is pretty unimportant. He had 36 years on 9 carries before he got hurt last week. To try and pin this on him means you are ignorant about football being a team sport.
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In comment 14987916 Black_Flag said:
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I cannot ever remember Eli basically losing games from turnovers. It is not the stats it is the time of the game. I have never seen Eli throw an int with like a minute left in half that gave the team a short field and put them in a double digit hole. Never seen him throw a lateral pass instead of just taking the sack. Never seen pocket presense so bad that a linebacker on the opposing team just comes up ripps the ball from him and runs in for a TD.
He wasn't perfect he turned the ball over a lot. he made some gutsy throws , some many would regard as foolish. Some end up off the top of someone's helmet in the last, game winning drive of a SB game.
That is a big difference between Eli and this guy. Eli understood there are 4 qtrs. in a football game. This guy is always forcing things early and getting the Giants playing from behind (and losing a lot of games). When was the last time the Giants won a game? When Eli started against the Dolphins? That is pathetic.
Look at other QBs in the league doing it. What about that guy J Herbert for the Chargers. 5 minutes before game time. 3 offenses in 4 years. Comes out and played lights out last week. I didn't watch this week but the stats looked decent. They certainly didn't lose to another teams practice squad. I know that.
Plenty of games were lost due to Eli Manning turnovers. Playoff games, too.
I can't think of any that were as boneheaded as Jones. maybe you can elighten us. And how many game winning drives last minute drives has Eli also done? It is like saying Babe Ruth sucked because he struck out a lot. Completely ignoring the fact he hit a lot of homeruns too.
September 2020.
Checks out!
Jones is what he is: a high floor, low ceiling starting NFL qb. He's not a stud, he's not a star, he's not a "franchise qb." He's a useful piece but he's not the guy you build the team around. That would be the "generational" running back, who is hurt right now.
Unless you decide that Barkley won't be Barkley when he returns, in which case you are going to build around the qb and Jones is not that guy. He doesn't throw or run will enough to build around. So, you are in the Lawrence sweepstakes and you are moving Jones where his role will be useful after the season and you are going after the receivers that a qb with a big arm can take advantage of.
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So your argument is Eli had turnovers, so it should be ok for Jones to have them as well? By that logic shouldn't any QB who turns the ball over be just fine?
I really don't know what you are trying to argue.
I think the point is people can’t make getting rid of Jones solely about turnovers when we watched a 2 time Super Bowl MVP throw the 2nd, 4th, and 1st most interceptions his first full 3 seasons. (Not to mention those fumbles Eli had from diving instead of sliding.) Getting to that point was a process for Eli and anyone who thinks they saw enough greatness in him 15 starts in to be patient through the growing pains is simply lying. DJ obviously needs to cut down on turnovers, especially fumbles. It would be great if the running game, protection, or defense took some pressure off of him.
As for the people who say “He hasn’t shown anything”, that’s ridiculous. With the ineptitude of Gettleman and the availability of Lawrence, Jones might not get the necessary time to develop here. If he doesn’t, it will have been more about the franchise’s failures than his own.
Pretty much this.
Feels like Jones has to be perfect everytime he throws the ball.
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He’s at the beginning of his second year. It takes time to develop as a QB, time as I. Years, not weeks.
I agree, he is 15 games into his career. Second system, no offseason, and had his full starting offense for a whooping 2 quarters.
It is what it is- the passing game looks terrible, we don't throw the ball more than 10 yards in the air and Jones needed to step up yesterday and failed.
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In comment 14988022 Mike from Ohio said:
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So your argument is Eli had turnovers, so it should be ok for Jones to have them as well? By that logic shouldn't any QB who turns the ball over be just fine?
I really don't know what you are trying to argue.
I think the point is people can’t make getting rid of Jones solely about turnovers when we watched a 2 time Super Bowl MVP throw the 2nd, 4th, and 1st most interceptions his first full 3 seasons. (Not to mention those fumbles Eli had from diving instead of sliding.) Getting to that point was a process for Eli and anyone who thinks they saw enough greatness in him 15 starts in to be patient through the growing pains is simply lying. DJ obviously needs to cut down on turnovers, especially fumbles. It would be great if the running game, protection, or defense took some pressure off of him.
As for the people who say “He hasn’t shown anything”, that’s ridiculous. With the ineptitude of Gettleman and the availability of Lawrence, Jones might not get the necessary time to develop here. If he doesn’t, it will have been more about the franchise’s failures than his own.
Pretty much this.
Feels like Jones has to be perfect everytime he throws the ball.
So what's your point? I don't try to pull rank because of my join date. We are in the situation we are in. Some QBs come right out of the gate because of their god given talent and shine as rookies like Dan Marino. Some are 3rd rounders that develop into great QBs with the right coach and time like a joe Montana. Dan Jones is neither one of those. Yes I suppose for the North Carolina fans who want him to be like a trent Dilfer riding a great defense to the show then it makes sense. Otherwise it is like why bother developing this guy ?
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In comment 14987778 cosmicj said:
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He’s at the beginning of his second year. It takes time to develop as a QB, time as I. Years, not weeks.
I agree, he is 15 games into his career. Second system, no offseason, and had his full starting offense for a whooping 2 quarters.
Stop it. No team had preseason. The Cowboys had no preseason and a new system and have become an aerial circus. Herbert has played two games and looked better. Murray is in his second year and looked better.
It is what it is- the passing game looks terrible, we don't throw the ball more than 10 yards in the air and Jones needed to step up yesterday and failed.
Look at the Cowboys "defense"
Murray is in his 2nd year in the same system.
Herbert looked okay I guess, didn't see much of the game.
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In comment 14988080 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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In comment 14988022 Mike from Ohio said:
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So your argument is Eli had turnovers, so it should be ok for Jones to have them as well? By that logic shouldn't any QB who turns the ball over be just fine?
I really don't know what you are trying to argue.
I think the point is people can’t make getting rid of Jones solely about turnovers when we watched a 2 time Super Bowl MVP throw the 2nd, 4th, and 1st most interceptions his first full 3 seasons. (Not to mention those fumbles Eli had from diving instead of sliding.) Getting to that point was a process for Eli and anyone who thinks they saw enough greatness in him 15 starts in to be patient through the growing pains is simply lying. DJ obviously needs to cut down on turnovers, especially fumbles. It would be great if the running game, protection, or defense took some pressure off of him.
As for the people who say “He hasn’t shown anything”, that’s ridiculous. With the ineptitude of Gettleman and the availability of Lawrence, Jones might not get the necessary time to develop here. If he doesn’t, it will have been more about the franchise’s failures than his own.
Pretty much this.
Feels like Jones has to be perfect everytime he throws the ball.
So what's your point? I don't try to pull rank because of my join date. We are in the situation we are in. Some QBs come right out of the gate because of their god given talent and shine as rookies like Dan Marino. Some are 3rd rounders that develop into great QBs with the right coach and time like a joe Montana. Dan Jones is neither one of those. Yes I suppose for the North Carolina fans who want him to be like a trent Dilfer riding a great defense to the show then it makes sense. Otherwise it is like why bother developing this guy ?
K
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In comment 14988130 AnishPatel said:
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In comment 14987778 cosmicj said:
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He’s at the beginning of his second year. It takes time to develop as a QB, time as I. Years, not weeks.
I agree, he is 15 games into his career. Second system, no offseason, and had his full starting offense for a whooping 2 quarters.
Stop it. No team had preseason. The Cowboys had no preseason and a new system and have become an aerial circus. Herbert has played two games and looked better. Murray is in his second year and looked better.
It is what it is- the passing game looks terrible, we don't throw the ball more than 10 yards in the air and Jones needed to step up yesterday and failed.
Look at the Cowboys "defense"
Murray is in his 2nd year in the same system.
Herbert looked okay I guess, didn't see much of the game.
So Herbert played his first rookie game; against the defending super bowl champs; which he found out 5 minutes before game time; is on his 3rd offense scheme in 4 years nearly won threw for 300 years had 2 TD; but sure he played OK. Are you a Duke alumni or Jones' cousin or something?
So what's your point? I don't try to pull rank because of my join date. We are in the situation we are in. Some QBs come right out of the gate because of their god given talent and shine as rookies like Dan Marino. Some are 3rd rounders that develop into great QBs with the right coach and time like a joe Montana. Dan Jones is neither one of those. Yes I suppose for the North Carolina fans who want him to be like a trent Dilfer riding a great defense to the show then it makes sense. Otherwise it is like why bother developing this guy ?
Dan Marino was an all-time great talent who played well right away. He also joined a team that won the division title 2 years in a row before he got there and had a Hall of Fame coach. That’s almost the same scenario for Pat Maholms. No matter how talented guys are, they can’t do it by themselves. DJ has almost no help from the line. To expect him to rise above this situation isn’t remotely reasonable. I wouldn’t expect Trevor Lawrence to do it either, even though I would draft him if I got the chance.
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In comment 14987778 cosmicj said:
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He’s at the beginning of his second year. It takes time to develop as a QB, time as I. Years, not weeks.
I agree, he is 15 games into his career. Second system, no offseason, and had his full starting offense for a whooping 2 quarters.
Stop it. No team had preseason. The Cowboys had no preseason and a new system and have become an aerial circus. Herbert has played two games and looked better. Murray is in his second year and looked better.
It is what it is- the passing game looks terrible, we don't throw the ball more than 10 yards in the air and Jones needed to step up yesterday and failed.
Stop. Bring up the cowboys offense? Our offense has no talent. None. Two banged up WRs, a TE who sucks, and an OL which has been a work in progress for a long time. Again, wait more than 15 god damn games to judge a QB, If he still sucks, then I’m on board with getting a new QB.
I actually moved to Arizona from NJ. Murray is a good QB, and interested to see how KK progresses as a HC and what they can do with their offensive play calling. I think getting rid of Rosen, and drafting Murray was a good move, and interested to see how he develops here.
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In comment 14987783 Br00klyn said:
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In comment 14987778 cosmicj said:
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He’s at the beginning of his second year. It takes time to develop as a QB, time as I. Years, not weeks.
He may not have that long if Trevor Lawrence is sitting there staring them in the face
I'm still waiting (not from you, specifically) but from anyone who can honestly tell me how much better Lawrence would do with this tragic cast around him.
No one's open when Slayton's doubled. Shepherd could get open but he's injured. No Barkley. No tight end worth a damn.
I'm just curious why people think Trevor would do so much better.
I'd argue drafting Trevor would be a mistake right now.
Let's draft a big bodied WR who can actually catch the ball in tight quarters.
What makes jones so special? If you over draft him and over draft a running back and you get rid of all your players that came before including one of the most dynamic WR the Giants ever had; you shouldn't be surprised that your QB has no one to throw to. That is on Gettleman. And Jones is Gettleman's QB. The same rules applied to Eli when he got benched ; those same rules should apply to Jones. BEFORE YOU pay him big bucks especially.
I'm not suggesting Jones is special.
I'm suggesting that we still don't know what he is, since he's been given an arena team quality offense to work with.
Trevor Lawrence would do negligibly better with this roster over his first 16 games. I'll grant you he won't fumble like Jones does - but other than that, I'm just not seeing it.
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In comment 14987778 cosmicj said:
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He’s at the beginning of his second year. It takes time to develop as a QB, time as I. Years, not weeks.
He may not have that long if Trevor Lawrence is sitting there staring them in the face
I'm still waiting (not from you, specifically) but from anyone who can honestly tell me how much better Lawrence would do with this tragic cast around him.
No one's open when Slayton's doubled. Shepherd could get open but he's injured. No Barkley. No tight end worth a damn.
I'm just curious why people think Trevor would do so much better.
I'd argue drafting Trevor would be a mistake right now.
Let's draft a big bodied WR who can actually catch the ball in tight quarters.
QB is the most important position on the team, and is Jones showing us enough to warrant spending a top pick to get him a number one receiver? Is he good enough to double down on?
What’s having me change my mind about Jones is his lack of comfort moving around the pocket. It is easier for a line to block for you when you give them appropriate and consistent angles to block from. I don’t see the pocket instincts in Daniel Jones that is clear to see with Trevor Lawrence and even Joe Burrow. Again, he had all off season to improve on this, we can’t just put blame on the O-line for every aspect of playing QB that Jones hasn’t yet mastered.
That was a shit show yesterday, Jones is a part of that. I don’t mention that in bad faith, but to be realistic about what the Giants‘ options are.
Trevor Lawrence is simply a QB that will force safeties to play us deeper. That alone will do wonders to Saquon’s development.