When DG took over three years ago he along with everyone else admitted the fixing offensive line had to be a or the priority to get this mess turned around. It's probably also the #1 reason Reese was canned.
Three years later we've made minimal - if any - progress on fixing the line. You simply cannot operate an offense with a function offensive line. How many times do we have to repeat this?
Despite a lot of big talk of "hog mollies" DG has simply NOT made it a priority to fix the OL. The most glaring omission IMO was trading three draft picks to move up and take DeAndre Baker. There were a plethora of highly rated tackles on the board that we could have taken by sitting still with our high 2nd round pick instead of trading up for Baker. And I felt this way long before Baker turned into a complete bust. If you make a move like that you're just paying lip service to making the OL your priority.
The second unforgivable mistake was not picking up a legit center going into this year. We knew we had nothing but hopes and dreams at center, and passed on centers in the draft and FA this year. Why? Why? What the hell was the plan for center this year? Play an UDFA who's never played the position before? Rely on someone as objectively awful as Pulley?
Also, after 3 years to try and fix the line we're counting on a journeyman to start at RT? Really? A guy who could have been picked up by anyone in the league? That's the fucking plan? Or maybe the plan was to hope that Solder would someone suck less than he had over the past two years while paying him $16M?
Say what you will but all lip service to the contrary DG has not made fixing the OL a priority and he needs to be fired ASAP and we need to get someone in here who will make this a priority. I don't care who the hell we have at WR, RB, or even QB until we get this mess of a line fixed. I don't even care if we have a defense that can't get off the field for now
Just fix the fucking offensive line!!!!!!! I can't watch 60% of our plays getting blown up behind the LOS because we can't block anyone. Enough of this shit.
It's been basically the same group since Gettleman took over. He's had three years to find a center and these jokers are still who he has chosen to go with. It's appalling.
It s the pressure from the interior that s the problem. Seems they still are having problems with games d-lines play
Far be it from me to understand if it s a lack of talent, technique, or recognition.
But you would think the guards should be the strength of this line. Maybe it s as simple as below average play from the center.
I will say seems pass pro is better.
It's been basically the same group since Gettleman took over. He's had three years to find a center and these jokers are still who he has chosen to go with. It's appalling.
Yep. No Center; no victories.
It's been basically the same group since Gettleman took over. He's had three years to find a center and these jokers are still who he has chosen to go with. It's appalling.
It's absolutely infuriating. How can Center be an afterthought??? For 3 damn years!!! We're pouring enormous resources into run stuffers to stop the other teams running game but give absolutely ZERO thought to having an NFL competent center (never mind someone who's actually ABOVE average) to help our own running game?
What. The. Fuck????
BUT, we don't have any play makers. You wasted picks on the type of player you can get in rounds 2,3,4 and even 5.. 3/4 defensive linemen are not big flashy players which is why they slip in the draft. We went after multiple def linemen in rounds 1-3 on a defense without any sort of game changing player.
* Nate Solder opting out really screwed up the team's plan for the Tackle positions. I believe they were planning on using Fleming as a "Swing Tackle" this year, with Peart in a developmental role, and Solder/Thomas as the starters.
* DG has spent capital to fix the Oline...he has just not done it in a timely, or frankly good way. Zeitler was traded for last season, Hernandez was the 34th pick in the '18 draft, he signed Nate Solder to a huge contract, then drafted Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux this year. Add the Omameh signing....which was a terrible decision, but an attempt to add talent.
Nick Gates was DGs college FA signing, and they have developed him into serviceable player.
I agree that DG has not gotten the job done, mostly by making bad decisions, not because he hasn't made the effort.
BUT, we don't have any play makers. You wasted picks on the type of player you can get in rounds 2,3,4 and even 5.. 3/4 defensive linemen are not big flashy players which is why they slip in the draft. We went after multiple def linemen in rounds 1-3 on a defense without any sort of game changing player.
Point being (so not lost here) we could have spent more picks on the OL or "play makers" instead of where we did go. It isn't a complaint about this player or that player, as all draft picks are a roll of the dice, it is the position and number of picks spent that is in question.
Zeitler's been a mixed bag.
Our lack of center is brutal.
Hernandez was a good draft and is a good guard.
* Nate Solder opting out really screwed up the team's plan for the Tackle positions. I believe they were planning on using Fleming as a "Swing Tackle" this year, with Peart in a developmental role, and Solder/Thomas as the starters.
* DG has spent capital to fix the Oline...he has just not done it in a timely, or frankly good way. Zeitler was traded for last season, Hernandez was the 34th pick in the '18 draft, he signed Nate Solder to a huge contract, then drafted Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux this year. Add the Omameh signing....which was a terrible decision, but an attempt to add talent.
Nick Gates was DGs college FA signing, and they have developed him into serviceable player.
I agree that DG has not gotten the job done, mostly by making bad decisions, not because he hasn't made the effort.
I disagree. He's basically ignored 40% of the offensive line (RT and C) for three hears running. Greg listed our Centers over the past three years, but we've also started Remmers, Fleming, Flowers, Gates and Wheeler at RT over the last 3 years. Sorry, but that's not making RT a priority. Solder was awful of the past two years, hoping he'd magically get better was not a realistic plan for this year either.
The Saints picked McCoy even though they already had Max Unger on the team. They knew he was that good. If Gettleman didn't trade up for Baker, he would have been there for the Giants, and he could have kept his 4th and 5th rounder.
That's the kind of fuck up Gettleman keeps making that results in the OL sucking.
Kamara 52 yard TD - ( New Window )
Team has no professional center, still
So now you are just realizing a QB needs a functioning OL to be successful?
So now you are just realizing a QB needs a functioning OL to be successful?
Bullshit. Acknowledging the Manning was toast does not equate to it all being the QB's fault - which I never said. Go find proof to the contrary.
But i's nice to see that the Manning for life club will still find a way to bring him into every discussion going forward.
* Nate Solder opting out really screwed up the team's plan for the Tackle positions. I believe they were planning on using Fleming as a "Swing Tackle" this year, with Peart in a developmental role, and Solder/Thomas as the starters.
* DG has spent capital to fix the Oline...he has just not done it in a timely, or frankly good way. Zeitler was traded for last season, Hernandez was the 34th pick in the '18 draft, he signed Nate Solder to a huge contract, then drafted Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux this year. Add the Omameh signing....which was a terrible decision, but an attempt to add talent.
Nick Gates was DGs college FA signing, and they have developed him into serviceable player.
I agree that DG has not gotten the job done, mostly by making bad decisions, not because he hasn't made the effort.
Tend to agree with you Tom. And those prior bad OL decisions have really hurt because now he had to make this past draft all about the Oline no matter what...and you never want to draft out of desperation.
Really needed to pursue a trade down strategy in 2018 or 2019 and add way more to the OL. Or at least not use up so much draft collateral on seemingly additional mistakes in Beal, Baker and LW.
In 2017, the Giants picked up DJ Fluker, a prominent draft bust. He plays RG, apparently at a decent enough level to start the next two seasons for Pete Carroll on a Seahawks playoff team. We let him go despite having little OL talent.
The next season, 2018, the Giants stumbled on to Jamon Brown through a mid-season waiver pickup. Brown I thought was a serviceable starter at a non-premium position. This pick-up was a win. Low cost, no draft capital used up, Brown could likely have improved with seasoning and coaching. We don't re-sign him even though he was out there on the free agent market for a month or so, if I remember correctly. He starts the next season for Atlanta. Now with Philly.
So on a talent-starved OL where these two players at the very least could have inarguably served as NFL level depth, we just let them go for nothing.
Instead, we sign Omameh for a fair amount of money. This is such a disaster and a scouting failure that he is benched and released within a couple of months.
Next step is the big trade for Kevin Zeitler. Zeitler is a good player but he has a lot of tread on his tires. A LOT. He had started a total of 103 games in his career when arrived in NY. 103! This for a rebuilding team. This trade occurred after DG had started tearing the team apart. So why acquire such an old player?
This is just a trail of incompetence. As an alternative, we could have simply paid DJ Fluker $2-3mm a year and lived with very average performance. Instead, we are paying Zeitler a lot more... for very average performance.
Titled: Why the Giants haven't really improved since the 2017 disaster season.
Anyway, I think he's got 4/5ths of the line figured out. Get a real Center in here and put Gates back as a swing tackle or guard. He can now also be a back up at Center now. His versatility is better suited on the bench IMO.
Orlando Brown Jr. was a unanimous (AP, AFCA, FWAA, WCFF, TSN, SI, USAT, ESPN, CBS, CFN, Athlon) All-American OT.
He had a bad combine and that's why he dropped out of the first round. Was he risk as a 1st rounder based on his bad combine? Sure. But by the third round he was not just a value pick but a steal.
Gettleman could have picked Bloom with either of this 3rd rounders, instead he picks BJ Hill and Lorenzo Carter.
Meanwhile the Ravens pick Bloom who has been their starting RT since his rookie year.
Had we taken Nelson- or traded down just a few spots and taken Nelson, we would see a different team altogether. In all honesty, assuming no injuries etc, who knows what direction we go in for 2019 had we snagged Nelson.
Otherwise I'm not sure how you draft a RB at #2 overall and then not do everything in your power to give him a solid to great OL to run behind.
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when you have been at the forefront of the "it's the QB's fault crowd" the last several years...
So now you are just realizing a QB needs a functioning OL to be successful?
Bullshit. Acknowledging the Manning was toast does not equate to it all being the QB's fault - which I never said. Go find proof to the contrary.
But i's nice to see that the Manning for life club will still find a way to bring him into every discussion going forward.
Wait why isn't everyone in the Manning club for life? He was the greatest QB we ever had.
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center. Halapio is a guard who drifted through several organizations without ever getting on the field. Pulley is a journeyman backup. Gates is a UDFA tackle.
It's been basically the same group since Gettleman took over. He's had three years to find a center and these jokers are still who he has chosen to go with. It's appalling.
Yep. No Center; no victories.
You can certainly have a center that's nothing special; the Packers of the mid-1960s, when they won their three NFL Championships in a row, had two guys who were nothing special, Ken Bowman and Bill Curry.
Orlando Brown Jr. was a unanimous (AP, AFCA, FWAA, WCFF, TSN, SI, USAT, ESPN, CBS, CFN, Athlon) All-American OT.
He had a bad combine and that's why he dropped out of the first round. Was he risk as a 1st rounder based on his bad combine? Sure. But by the third round he was not just a value pick but a steal.
Gettleman could have picked Bloom with either of this 3rd rounders, instead he picks BJ Hill and Lorenzo Carter.
Meanwhile the Ravens pick Bloom who has been their starting RT since his rookie year.
Orlando Brown Jr. was a unanimous (AP, AFCA, FWAA, WCFF, TSN, SI, USAT, ESPN, CBS, CFN, Athlon) All-American OT.- why do I see the Spoof movie Hot Shots here when the Military and jet Contractor are meeting at a boxing matching and one of the boxers is introduced with like a gazillion titles and organizations...
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In comment 14987890 Greg from LI said:
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center. Halapio is a guard who drifted through several organizations without ever getting on the field. Pulley is a journeyman backup. Gates is a UDFA tackle.
It's been basically the same group since Gettleman took over. He's had three years to find a center and these jokers are still who he has chosen to go with. It's appalling.
Yep. No Center; no victories.
You can certainly have a center that's nothing special; the Packers of the mid-1960s, when they won their three NFL Championships in a row, had two guys who were nothing special, Ken Bowman and Bill Curry.
you are using an example from almost 60 years ago? Hell, the 1930's saw teams with basically no passing games win..
why just judge him on those players? Why can't we judge him on the other guys he's brought in that haven't played well?
All of this talk about our lack of OL talent misses the point I think — it’s about getting your guys to execute. Not sure why we can’t, year after year.
I get it, but the Center position for the 2020 draft was pretty bad in terms of depth. Upcoming draft seems significantly better with as many as 7 guys who could have 2nd round grades.
https://twitter.com/BaldyNFL/status/1310535252952133637 - ( New Window )
https://twitter.com/BaldyNFL/status/1310536720170070021 - ( New Window )
That being said, part of the reason Judge was hired here is because they can no longer do the patchwork bullshit. There needs to be a plan. As they spent a lot of picks on OL in 2020, I imagine there will be more in 2021.
And you could have had $16M to sign Conklin or another player(s).
When DG took over, He immediately replaced 4 of the 5 starters, and move the other from LT to RT and then off the team in short order. In total there were 7 players replaced that year, all 5 from the previous year were gone, Omameh was a terrible signing and replaced before mid season. Halapio lasted 1.5 of games turning in league worst center play before being hurt and replaced for the season. Also the massively expensive FA LT played like a UDFA. That means that 140% of the line was replaced. The next season, the only 2 returning starters from the end of the previous year were the underwhelming LT and LG. Meaning 60% of the line that ended the prior season were replaced. However we brought back the injured league worst center, so there is that. And this year, again 60% of the line has been turned over...
3 things:
1) that shows an incomprehensible lack of evaluation skills
2) if you are going to have that much turnover, you are going to spend A LOT more capital on the position as you spin your wheels.
3) UFA is NOT a good place to spend capital on OL. OL are becoming rarer, if teams have a decent one, they pay up and don't let them escape to FA. The available FA are available for a reason. DG spent on a terrible LT, a terrible RG, and two below average RTs. I don't consider those moves as spending capital on the position. They are just wasting time and money.
To the poster wrote about Fluker and Brown at RG. I agree 100% and have said the same in the past. If they had kept one of them, then they could have use the capital they gain from that trade on something like a real center or a real RT.
Up until this year, he spent only a second round pick and a sixth on OL. A ridiculously low percentage of draft capital. And its the draft where you are going to find OL.
Finally, center is one of the most difficult position to play in football. My opinion is that they are the 2nd most valuable OL players. They have to be QB level smart, they have to call the blocking scheme. THey have to have heightened awareness reading the play on the fly to figure out their assignments. The best ones are very athletic and are masters at sliding off the double team and moving downfield to block at the 2nd level. They have to protect the QB from pressure up the middle, often with a monster on their nose. And they have to handle the ball. It is a position that should be a priority to fill with excellence, not an after thought to be filled with undrafted journeymen, discard backups, and UDFAs. Also, its best to not experiment with converting players from other positions. OLs generally do not function well with poor centers.
Otherwise I'm not sure how you draft a RB at #2 overall and then not do everything in your power to give him a solid to great OL to run behind.
And this is why DG has to be fired. Carlo had to answer for Sonny and DG has to answer for this pick. He had all the cards and lost the hand anyway. This was a huge miss.
if you're going to base your evaluation of Holmes vs Biadasz on one game in week 3 of their rookie seasons, then you really are an idiot.
Ha ha, yes!
I would argue that the pandemic is all the more reason that the Giants should have obtained a player with experience at center. Let's not forget that the pandemic was in full effect during the draft, why not draft Biadasz instead of yet another DB? Why not sign a FA center and use Gates as a swing OL and develop him at C during a full training camp next year? Several FA centers were available at modest prices. Could they be any worse than Gates?
2020 Free Agent Centers - ( New Window )
enough with the excuses, we have had a decade of them
He has. But his efforts have been a tragically poor. For a guy who waddles around claiming this is his specialty, he looks totally incompetent right now.
Otherwise I'm not sure how you draft a RB at #2 overall and then not do everything in your power to give him a solid to great OL to run behind.
He did do everything to build an OL for SB (and Eli), he just failed:
- Signed Solder (after Norwell went to Jags)
- Signed Omameh - missed horribly here
- Drafted Hernandez at the top of the 2nd
That's 3 new OL starters.
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he thought Barkley was so amazing and special that he wouldn't really need much of an OL to run behind, and then defenses would have to load up to stop the run and that would make our passing game much easier.
Otherwise I'm not sure how you draft a RB at #2 overall and then not do everything in your power to give him a solid to great OL to run behind.
He did do everything to build an OL for SB (and Eli), he just failed:
- Signed Solder (after Norwell went to Jags)
- Signed Omameh - missed horribly here
- Drafted Hernandez at the top of the 2nd
That's 3 new OL starters.
Problem is, he needed 5 new starters that year...
And looking to FA for OL just doesn't count anymore. It's no surprise when you miss in FA on OL... They wouldn't be FA if they were worth a damn.
BBI heads would have exploded had we taken him after the combine he had. Didn't he get like 14 reps on the bench as opposed to the 25 some RBs were getting?
In comment 14988028 sb from NYT Forum said:
Orlando Brown Jr. was a unanimous (AP, AFCA, FWAA, WCFF, TSN, SI, USAT, ESPN, CBS, CFN, Athlon) All-American OT.
He had a bad combine and that's why he dropped out of the first round. Was he risk as a 1st rounder based on his bad combine? Sure. But by the third round he was not just a value pick but a steal.
Gettleman could have picked Bloom with either of this 3rd rounders, instead he picks BJ Hill and Lorenzo Carter.
Meanwhile the Ravens pick Bloom who has been their starting RT since his rookie year.
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Who played yesterday for Dallas and looked better than anything the Giants have had since O’Hara. But we had to take a smurf slot corner who holds on 3rd and 22.
if you're going to base your evaluation of Holmes vs Biadasz on one game in week 3 of their rookie seasons, then you really are an idiot.
Want to bet on who has the better career?
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he thought Barkley was so amazing and special that he wouldn't really need much of an OL to run behind, and then defenses would have to load up to stop the run and that would make our passing game much easier.
Otherwise I'm not sure how you draft a RB at #2 overall and then not do everything in your power to give him a solid to great OL to run behind.
He did do everything to build an OL for SB (and Eli), he just failed:
- Signed Solder (after Norwell went to Jags)
- Signed Omameh - missed horribly here
- Drafted Hernandez at the top of the 2nd
That's 3 new OL starters.
This is the same shit people used to say about Reese. Carbon copy. Throwing shit against the wall doesn’t count as “doing everything.”
Anyway, I think he's got 4/5ths of the line figured out.
No offense to you but this is the same broken record we've heard over-and-over since DG has been the GM. Further, how often have we heard in the past after draft day how DG "NAILED IT?"
How often have we heard the same type of posts you are saying now that's been posted comparing the prior year vs the upcoming year and how each individual player was better only to end up with a same crummy OLINE because even if the a few might have more talent they function miserably?
There is nothing that indicates what you're saying about the 2 new OL will come true. It's all based on blind hope. Yet we've seen so much incompetence from DG since he became GM. So he has been horrid for the past few years yet NOW - THIS YEAR- ALL OF SUDDEN he is going to "HIT VERY WELL" with a 3rd AND 4th rounder that either this year or next year the OLINE is going to be good?
We haven't even seen these guys play 1 quarter of pro football with a lousy recent track record we've seen from DG yet you're proclaiming these two guys are going to be good going forward? Your comments are the same broken record we've heard over-and-over.
I blame part of that on the previous coaching staff. He played primarily RG in college and Zeitler played his best football at LG. But, Hernandez was played at LG from day one, likely to put him next to a veteran LT in Solder, as opposed to a dumpster fire in Flowers at RT. If they were flip flopped, would either of them or the OL overall have been any better? Who knows. But it sucks now, and Hernandez, whether you like him or not (and I REALLY want to like him), is a big part of that.
I would play Lemieux at LG and Peart at RT right now. We literally have nothing to lose. The OL has performed that poorly, especially the guys they would replace.
As for OC, we don't have a better viable option. So, we continue to take our lumps with Gates and hope he improves. Almost to a man here at BBI, the expectation was that Gates would win the job and anchor the middle of the line. That might have been false hope, which we really needed. If he improves over the course of the season, we may still have something. If not, OC is an immediate need and RG is something we need to start thinking about with Zeitler already 30 and just OK.
But there's some good stuff on tape, too. BUt there are also some really strange alignments, motions and decisions by our OC.
Another good Talkin' Giants OL segment that's well worth the 25 minute watch.
Week 3 Talkin' Giants OL report - ( New Window )
But there's some good stuff on tape, too. BUt there are also some really strange alignments, motions and decisions by our OC.
Another good Talkin' Giants OL segment that's well worth the 25 minute watch. Week 3 Talkin' Giants OL report - ( New Window )
BEGGINNINg TO JELL???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!