Circumstances are different for sure. Eli was a higher profile prospect and he joined a more talented team. But he wasn’t great right away (could easily argue he was never great), there were a lot of growing pains. The 0.0 passer rating against Baltimore as a rookie, the playoff stinker his second year, the Vikings game year four where he threw what, four pick sixes? It was not always pretty.
The difference I am starting to think is that while it was tough sledding I always felt deep down that Eli was our guy. I just felt, maybe irrationally at times, that it would work out and it was very important to me that it did work out. I wasted a lot of brain cells arguing that Eli was doing well, eventually that he was great, better than Rivers and Ben, clutch, etc. I just could not accept at any point that Eli was not the guy and I think it’s fair to say I wanted the Giants to be successful specifically with him as the starter more than I wanted them to be successful generally. I got the impression a lot Giants fans felt the same way, especially in that ‘04-‘07 stretch when it was not clear it would ever work out.
Whether it’s the result of being 16 years older, the constant losing this decade or the fact that Jones came in with far less of a reputation, I am not sure I feel the same way this time around. Jones seems like a nice kid, a hard worker, he has talent. But if he’s not the guy he’s not the guy, I guess that’s how I feel. Unless things really make a turn for the better, I would not begrudge a new GM coming in next season and saying we need some competition here at a minimum.
I guess the bottom line is I am less invested in Jones’ success than I was Eli’s. If he ends up being a great player, fantastic. If he’s not I would be fine moving on pretty quickly. Anyone else feeling the same way? Especially as it compared to your mindset when Eli was starting out?
By the way I am not some Eli apologist, he was cooked and it was time for a change.
If Jones isn't the guy, then you move on. But with Eli, NYG actually gave up assets to acquire him.
It also helped out that the rest of the team wasn't total dogshit when Eli was starting out. Tiki, Strahan, Toomer... these guys were already NYG staples at this point.
I wrote this in another thread, even when Manning wasn't going well he threw an elite deep ball and ran the two minute drill very well. Outside of the 19 play drive against Pittsburgh and some flashes last year, I cannot think of what Jones does at an elite level (outside of some athletic ability). I've been a supporter of Jones, and think he could possibly become a top 10 qb. But right now, I cannot see a lot that projects out as a to 10 qb.
Keep in mind also, that next year, there may very well be a front office and head coach (Judge), that did not draft or evaluate Jones. I'd say as much as anyone, Jones is playing to secure his Giants future this year.
After the 4th year if they didnt win a superbowl he may not of still been the starter, but they did and the rest his history..
But lets not act like we knew right away Manning was the franchise guy..
That's never been said about Jones. All Gettleman really said was he saw an "NFL qwataback..." at the Senior Bowl.
And I have never been convinced Jones is a first round talent. His skills some much more fitting of a second or round prospect. So his downside is much greater...
Terps, I think you pointed this out last year when you said that Jones may very well be a victim of circumstance as well. Even if he were to be a solid NFL qb, the Giants are likely to have some shots at elite qb talent over the next couple of drafts. With a different front office, they may very well pull the plug on Jones at some point.
He's not going to get the Eli leeway. Eli was a highly coveted prospect.
Quote:
I'd be shocked if he ever approaches that level.
Terps, I think you pointed this out last year when you said that Jones may very well be a victim of circumstance as well. Even if he were to be a solid NFL qb, the Giants are likely to have some shots at elite qb talent over the next couple of drafts. With a different front office, they may very well pull the plug on Jones at some point.
He's not going to get the Eli leeway. Eli was a highly coveted prospect.
Yup. I said last year Jones and Barkley would both be victims of this organization, and neither would be here in 5 years. I stand by that.
Do you draft a qb at 6 to be "fine." No, you draft a guy you hope is a future top 10 qb. Can you articulate what Jones does at a top 10 level at the moment? He may very well get there, but I cannot think of a thing he does that projects out at a top 10 level at this point.
That's never been said about Jones. All Gettleman really said was he saw an "NFL qwataback..." at the Senior Bowl.
And I have never been convinced Jones is a first round talent. His skills some much more fitting of a second or round prospect. So his downside is much greater...
Totally agree with this. Nobody will ever convince me that DJ wouldn't have been there at 17 and he was a HUGE reach at 6...hell, he was a reach in the 1st round, at all. He did nothing in college to show he'd be anything special, Cuttcliff, a bad GM, and the Senior Bowl are the only reason he got drafted that high.
So far, he's a slightly better version of Trubisky.
But not sure if it that clear cut.....especially if a team is willing to offer a dump load of draft picks.
Sunday game was a low point for Jones....hopefully, he can show mark improvement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_New_York_Giants_season - ( New Window )
This times a billion. I don’t care if we had buffalos josh Allen who looks like he’s might be alright in the long run. I’d still take Lawrence. This is Peyton territory. It’s a risk worth taking all day long.
Jones shouldn’t even be considered in the discussion if his season is even 40% better than where it is now. I think at this point Jones would have to have us in every single game not have even three more turnovers. Lawrence is just that good a prospect, I’m sorry.
At worst if he turns the season around and we are competitive yet somehow we find our selves in a position to even trade a haul for Lawrence, but we would definitely get him, you go for it. If you were on the edge you could keep Jones and let them battle it out in camp. Lawrence would win that no question. Then you trade Jones to Tennessee or someone like them that just needs a QB that isn’t more bum then pro. And he’s young and would have a stout competitive team around him.
As for Jones, if we’re playing Hindu Theory, I don’t see Simms or Manning. So far, I see Alex Smith - who, for all his shortcomings, had a pretty nice second act to his career, until he got Thiesmann’d; and he may not be done yet.
Good comparison. Didn't even think of Mariota, I was thinking more Cousins with athleticism. But I guess Cousins with athleticism is Mariota.
I was thinking Alex Smith.
I totally agree Jones just does not have the elite arm talent or the ability to make fast reads a good athlete and good kid but in no way was he worthy of being picked 6th.
As far as Jones, he is tough like Eli and seems calm and willing to keep coming at the opposition. Says all the right things and such. Has demonstrated some big boy throws. He was productive last year. I have no idea if he will be the guy, but I know I do not care as much.
Eli and the Giants won the NFC East in Eli's second year. Had the come from behind win against Denver. Giants had a top five offense I think.
Granted that roster was way better and a veteran coach with a winning record. Jones is on the worst team in football.
Still, by 2005 Eli was able to lead an offense and demonstrate the mostly important thing of all, being able to bring the team down the field for the win at the end of the game, he was also invulnerable already. If Jones keeps taking hits and they start running him more like they did this week, I hate to say it, but we will see Mccoy sooner rather than later.
I wrote this in another thread, even when Manning wasn't going well he threw an elite deep ball and ran the two minute drill very well. Outside of the 19 play drive against Pittsburgh and some flashes last year, I cannot think of what Jones does at an elite level (outside of some athletic ability). I've been a supporter of Jones, and think he could possibly become a top 10 qb. But right now, I cannot see a lot that projects out as a to 10 qb.
Keep in mind also, that next year, there may very well be a front office and head coach (Judge), that did not draft or evaluate Jones. I'd say as much as anyone, Jones is playing to secure his Giants future this year.
It was clear out of the gate season two for Eli that he was the man. I remember early in the 2005 season we were playing I think the Rams. He hit Shockey on a deeeeeep seem route and it was one of the prettiest deep balls I’ve ever seen. Just right over Shockeys shoulder and landed in his hands soft as butter. I remember seeing that pass and thinking holy crap we have got our QB for a while.
Not too mention he took us 11-5 and left little room for doubt. Sure he threw some picks but he clearly had intangibles and elite talent. It’s not even comparable putting Jones in that conversation at this point. You kick Jones to the curb if you can get your hands on the next Peyton or Rodgers. It’s not even debatable. If we get the number one pick and DG is still GM and we don’t take Lawrence, or even some other GM doesn’t take him, that will be it for me with this team possibly forever. Lawrence is that legit.
Perfect comp. at least for now. That’s spot on.
They all wound up with multiple rings.
Quote:
Jones does not yet. Eli year 2 wins the Bears game. Jones did not. It is not all his fault he has very little help but Jones is 3-12 in the NFL. If he stays healthy by the end of the year that will probably be about 6-22 what QB can overcome that start to a career?
Bart Starr started out 3-15-1. Troy Aikman was 3-18, and lost his first eleven starts. Terry Bradshaw’s record wasn’t quite that bad (Pittsburgh’s supporting cast was already pretty good by 1970-1972), but he was awful, and was benched at least twice. Bob Griese was 10-20-2. Jim Plunkett had his first winning record in his tenth season. Simms is a weird case: he won his first four starts, then just five of the next 21.
They all wound up with multiple rings.
I think there's a bit of era bias here. QBs these days just do not take as long as they used to until they hit their stride.
Also, tangentially related side note: I think Troy Aikman is so fucking overrated. Granted, I was young when he was playing, but he never threw 20+ TDs only once and never hit 4,000 yards in a season? Really? I get that Emmitt Smith was there, but that still seems insane for the accolades he gets.
Quote:
Jones does not yet. Eli year 2 wins the Bears game. Jones did not. It is not all his fault he has very little help but Jones is 3-12 in the NFL. If he stays healthy by the end of the year that will probably be about 6-22 what QB can overcome that start to a career?
Bart Starr started out 3-15-1. Troy Aikman was 3-18, and lost his first eleven starts. Terry Bradshaw’s record wasn’t quite that bad (Pittsburgh’s supporting cast was already pretty good by 1970-1972), but he was awful, and was benched at least twice. Bob Griese was 10-20-2. Jim Plunkett had his first winning record in his tenth season. Simms is a weird case: he won his first four starts, then just five of the next 21.
They all wound up with multiple rings.
The difference is Lawrence would get us some wins all by himself. And once the roster turned decent we would be perennially playoff contenders. It’s clear jones ain’t gonna elevate us to wins on his own. And Aikmen probably doesn’t have the career he did without the team around him. You can throw Bradshaw and Bart Star in that category as well.
I wasn’t alive for Star but I’ve watched all the old nfl films docs and that GB team was loaded through the 60s. Not sure about any seasons when Star had a crappy team around him because I have never seen any docs discussing years when Star was leading a mediocre GB team.
As far as Terry goes, we all know about those teams. Not only was the defense insane but he had receivers that could literally go up and get any ball. Swan was insane. So was I believe Stalworth(?). And Franco Harris.
I think his feet are more valuable than has arm actually.
I think his feet are more valuable than has arm actually.
I think it's the only thing Garrett's done right. Someone started a thread on using Jones like Cam Newton is being used in New England, and I agree 100%. I've said a bunch of times: get Jones out of the pocket and moving forward. The less time spent in the pocket, the better.
As for whether QBs hit their stride more quickly, that’s probably true. Keep in mind that Rodgers apprenticed for three years behind Favre, Rivers carried Brees’s clipboard for two years. and even Mahomes sat behind Smith for most of his rookie year.
I give you Russell Wilson, Lamar Jackson and maybe Dak Prescott. But it’s hard to find a young QB who overcame adversity close to what surrounds Daniel Jones. I don’t think he’s anything special, but how can we even tell with the mess around him?
@lt4kicks
·
9h
Daniel Jones is a FRANCHISE QB, no one will convince me otherwise. Look what he has around him vs Eli in year 2. Bad drafts from previous regimes. #TogetherBlue
As for whether QBs hit their stride more quickly, that’s probably true. Keep in mind that Rodgers apprenticed for three years behind Favre, Rivers carried Brees’s clipboard for two years. and even Mahomes sat behind Smith for most of his rookie year.
I give you Russell Wilson, Lamar Jackson and maybe Dak Prescott. But it’s hard to find a young QB who overcame adversity close to what surrounds Daniel Jones. I don’t think he’s anything special, but how can we even tell with the mess around him?
But if this team is going to be heading towards as high of a draft pick as they appear to be, I don't think Jones has shown anything to show that he doesn't deserve to be replaced by a QB like Lawrence (or Fields depending on how this season goes) if the Giants have a shot to take the QB at that spot.
Truth be told, Jones looks better than I expected him to. I was so down on the pick that I actually am more encouraged now than when he initially got picked. I'm not saying that he's the answer, but he doesn't appear to be the problem. That still doesn't mean you don't upgrade the position to a true generational/franchise talent if the team shits the bed and gets the #1 or #2 overall pick.
Lastly, I know we're talking about QBs across a realllllly long period of time, but even Aaron Rodgers rookie year is relatively ancient history at this point. Teams just aren't drafting a QB to have him sit/develop for 3 years at this point. Off the top of my head, Mahomes sitting behind Smith was actually against the grain if you look at QBs drafted in the 10s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_New_York_Giants_season - ( New Window )
Thank you, Eric. That's like comparing a rusty Taurus to a 3-year-old Hummer when you have to do some off-road hauling.
Sometimes I wonder how many would-be superstars just wound up on a really bad team. And vice-versa, for that matter.
#4 in touchdown throws in the NFL in 2005. Tied for #5 in 2006. The 2007 season he was spotty. But who gives a shit? Like you said, 2007 playoffs.
Quote:
Good kid with ability, but just does not generate enough plays. And that's not considering the turnovers...
Perfect comp. at least for now. That’s spot on.
My comp is Brock Osweiler.. big guy, fair arm, occasional flashes, suspect head and judgement.
I just don't think it is likely that Jones develops into a special player. Upside is a mid range QB. Downside is... well Osweiler is already out of football.
Let that sink in before we start to talk about Trevor Lawrence.
Let that sink in before we start to talk about Trevor Lawrence.
Excuse making has been a constant theme these last 8 years. Jones is part of the problem.
Let that sink in before we start to talk about Trevor Lawrence.
Eli Manning started his career in a league that was still migrating to a pass first game. The rules weren’t yet favoring the qbs. Jones is in a pass happy league where qbs are putting up video game numbers.
Not sure if you watched Mahomes tonight. But that’s the type of talent we’re talking about with Lawerence. Jones isn’t on the same planet as him. Jones ceiling is probably game manager. They don’t win in this league.
All that said, it still boils down to the player. Leading up to the 2004 draft I was convinced Eli was the best QB out there. I had no doubt of that. That doesn't mean I wanted to draft him. Once SD took him, my choice would have been to stand pat (or trade down) and take Roethlisberger. I did not want Rivers. I really didn't want to trade picks to get Eli because I thought Roethlisberger was just a shade behind. But, once the deal went down, I was thrilled to have Eli on board.
Now, Eli certainly had some growing pains. But, from day one, I also saw a guy who I thought could lead this team. Even as a rookie, he seemed in control, he handled the pressure on and off the field, and was unflappable. For me, the hit he took in his first action that looked like it killed him cemented my confidence. He just got up and got back in the huddle. He was a Hell of a lot tougher than he looked and he was a Hell of a lot better at QB than a lot of people still give him credit for. The next play for me, was the audible to win the final game at Dallas. That showed balls of steel for a rookie. The fact that a rookie was allowed to make that audible should also tell you what you need to know. My confidence in Ei and support for Eli was unwavering to the end.
Now, Jones already provided some moments. But, his record last year wasn't really all that impressive once you look after the dust settled. As bw said, the difference here is with Jones going into the season, it was not clear what we had. To some scouts he had the talent to go where he did. To others, he was a 2nd round talent. Either way, there were still a lot of questions about him because of the school he played for, the number of turnovers, etc. After the season, questions still remain, whether some people want to admit it or not. I am optimistic there is a really good QB in there. And we certainly aren't doing him any favors with this OL. But, we also don't have the luxury of waiting all that long.
So, the bottom line is that even though I have seen flashes of a good QB in there, I don't have the same level of confidence I had in Eli at the same point.
Exactly.
Am I on drugs or did Eli not lead the NFC in touchdown throws in 2005? Sure, he was tied with a few others but he sat only behind Brady, Peyton and Carson Palmer (pre-injury) in this particular category.
The only reason why I am well trained in this is because I remember these exact arguments with high school friends about how he was no good... Yet, late in the year he was leading his conference in touchdown throws. How is that even possible?
I think what's going on here is people are just going back and looking at Eli's stats from 2005 and saying they look ordinary and they're using 2020 NFL stats as a measurement.
Let's not pretend and have revisionist history and not saying we didn't have a sigh of relief the way Eli Manning played in 2005 after his terrible rookie campaign.
Ok. The completion % was a little rough but meh. I still don't think Jones was the right pick and he's not getting better. With Eli, the 2004 hiccups were completely worth putting up with because of his 2005 bounce back. Same with the 2007 playoff run. I don't give a fuck if he threw 30 interceptions that year, he made up for it during the 2007 run in the playoffs.
Can Jones do the same after bad play?
I don't care if Lawrence is Montana and Mahomes and brady rolled into 1 he's not getting a ring on this team any time soon.
They can make receivers look like studs.
Generally, they can put up more than 20 points.
Most importantly, they win right away.
I'm not high on Jones right now.
Second, Eli was asked, from day 1, to run an offense that most veteran QBs would have looked downright shitty in and he mastered it. Gilbride's offense was very complex and relied on a lot of pre and post snap reads by both the QB and the receivers. It also took a lot of downfield shots. Eli ran this offense better than any other WB in the league could have, in my opinion. The completion percentage was, in large part, due to both the complexity and high risk nature of this offense. As soon as Eli played in a WC offense his completion % jumped, as expected. Eli was a much better QB than most give him credit for. Of that I am 100% certain. There are other QBs who may have been better than him while he played. But, there is not a single one I would rather have had to lead this team and the offense he did. I simply don't believe anyone would have fared better.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_New_York_Giants_season - ( New Window )
You might also consider forgetting the roster comparison, and just look at individual play execution. The roster had nothing to do with Jones' errant pitch to Engram (or the lost in space attitude and awareness to try to at least cover up the fumble). The roster has nothing to do with him misfiring to a wide open Evan Engram, and the roster is no excuse for him executing running plays into a 9 man box, although I suppose Jason Garret might be, if he hasn't given him the freedom to check out of plays...
This year I'm beginning to doubt he's accurate enough, and I don't see the ability to throw on the move that other top QBs have.
By the end of the season we'll know. Shurmur's offense makes QBs look better than they are from.a technical standpoint of skills. It's possible we are seeing "the real Jones" now and last year was a bit of a mirage.
How can anyone evaluate Jones honestly with this roster?
If we get a shot at multiple picks to build our depleted roster vs a QB on a great team who has never taken a snap in the NFL especially on this dumpster fire. Do yo really believe any QB today could produce with this offense? A lot of people are tired of losing. We need a big infusion of talent.
As far as Eli, I am grateful for 2 SB but how many playoffs did he lead us to? Eli had a great deep ball and for a while was good in last 2 minutes. He also turned the ball over a lot either because of bad decisions or inaccuracy. Some are quick to give up on Jones and even Judge for the next new unproven prospect.
I am a fan since 1954.
Eli, wasn’t in Eli s. class his sophomore year.
Honestly it feels like some have forgotten some of the awful games Eli put up throughout his career.
Jones might or might not become as good or better than Eli, but to state with certainty at this pt. He s not seems premature
24 TDS
17 INTS
Seriously folks? This board was questioning whether Eli was a bust for years after the 2004 draft. Not saying Jones is the answer but rewriting Eli history is not the way to go.
We aren’t winning with Jones, and his turnovers play a lot in our losses. It’s not the same.
If Jones isn't the guy, then you move on. But with Eli, NYG actually gave up assets to acquire him.
It also helped out that the rest of the team wasn't total dogshit when Eli was starting out. Tiki, Strahan, Toomer... these guys were already NYG staples at this point.
Yes. And in year 2 2005 they added Burress. And McKenzie, to O'Hara, Snee, Diehl and Petigout. The OL was already set. And Seubert was on his way back.
Is it really that Eli had a much better supporting cast or did he just make them better while jones really just looks like shit?
I mean really in the 2007 season they had Shockey’s back up Boss in during key games and LOOKED BETTER. They started Brandon Jacobs in both their play off runs after Tiki retired. He made Cruz, some undrafted kid out of umass a national sensation.
If it were Jones it would be “well of course they are not going anywhere they have an undrafted receiver and their pro bowlers are out “ blah blah
I'm not saying Jones has played well, but what QB with less than a seasons worth of experience would be winning these games?
There was a lot of pressure on Simms. He was injured and benched and the team was bad early on his career. Eventually, they got it right.
With Eli, he had high expectations. The team was willing to sacrifice their season to get him going. However, you could see the upside even in his bad games.
Now, I think there is too much coverage by the media, etc. Jones will probably be good. Maybe not Eli good in his prime or Simms good in the Superbowl...but good enough.
Losing stinks. We just need to string along a couple of wins in a row to gain confidence in the team and coach. Hang in there...its going to be rough.
I'm not saying Jones has played well, but what QB with less than a seasons worth of experience would be winning these games?
But the SF D was missing half its starters.
But is you want hypotheticals— not sure how Eli would fare as rookie on a team this bad...but then again his collegiate career was a lot like his pro career that of a special athlete. There’s a reason he didn’t want to play for a team that ended up 16 years later playing in a soccer stadium in la and not winning anything
Eli was always football smart audible early —something mahomee
Never did earlier as a rookie. Eli was unique combo of football smarts
With reckless abandon
Dj could be that but who knows his first inclination is run
Not sure if that’s no confidence or what
Jones does not have an OLine.
I agree on the instincts or "magic" as Accorsi called it but the 6th pick in the draft was not drafted to be an elite talent? That explains why the Giants are the Giants.
The Giants are ruining Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
Quote:
arniefez said:
Quote:
Jones does not yet. Eli year 2 wins the Bears game. Jones did not. It is not all his fault he has very little help but Jones is 3-12 in the NFL. If he stays healthy by the end of the year that will probably be about 6-22 what QB can overcome that start to a career?
Bart Starr started out 3-15-1. Troy Aikman was 3-18, and lost his first eleven starts. Terry Bradshaw’s record wasn’t quite that bad (Pittsburgh’s supporting cast was already pretty good by 1970-1972), but he was awful, and was benched at least twice. Bob Griese was 10-20-2. Jim Plunkett had his first winning record in his tenth season. Simms is a weird case: he won his first four starts, then just five of the next 21.
They all wound up with multiple rings.
The difference is Lawrence would get us some wins all by himself. And once the roster turned decent we would be perennially playoff contenders. It’s clear jones ain’t gonna elevate us to wins on his own. And Aikmen probably doesn’t have the career he did without the team around him. You can throw Bradshaw and Bart Star in that category as well.
I wasn’t alive for Star but I’ve watched all the old nfl films docs and that GB team was loaded through the 60s. Not sure about any seasons when Star had a crappy team around him because I have never seen any docs discussing years when Star was leading a mediocre GB team.
As far as Terry goes, we all know about those teams. Not only was the defense insane but he had receivers that could literally go up and get any ball. Swan was insane. So was I believe Stalworth(?). And Franco Harris.
Starr was deadly accurate, had a great arm and a great brain. Once he got a competent coach who installed him as the qb, he took off. Yes, Green Bay was loaded and had the greatest HC of all time, but they went into every game with an edge at qb against every team that did not have Unitas and he was even steven with Johnny U.
Aikman, was a cool customer who was deadly accurate. Could throw the ball 20 yards downfield and hit the receiver in stride between the numbers every freaking time. I hated him.
Bradshaw was a physical specimen. Cannon for an arm and could run like a deer. Think Josh Allen. Noll benched him until he buckled down and learned the game. Once Terry decided to do that, it was Katie bar the door.
I never thought Griese was in their class. He's in the HOF off three appearances and two victories in the Super Bowl. He was not outstanding at any one aspect of quarterbacking but very good at all of it and the total package was outstanding.
Plunkett got shell shocked with the Pats, kicked around with the Niners and was rescued off the scrap heap by the Raiders. He was the Tannehill of his era- the solid, unspectacular fallen top pick vet qb with starter experience who would be a piece on a team that had everything else. The Raiders replaced him Marc Wilson for the 81 season. This is where I see Jones' ceiling.
Lol stop acting like there were no questions about eli after year 3, stop it
Think about it. They were always not supposed to be as good or beat the Patriots, The packers, the Stealers, the Cowboys, the 49ers I can go on and on. I don't think they were ever the favorite ever. yet they still won against these teams -- a lot.
That is battle tested. Which is something Jones is not. And Eli was early. I actually watched the 2004 Stealers game just now. For awile you thought the Giants would win and they were in fact the better team.
Putting up a bunch of meaningless numbers while always playing from 2-3 scores behind because of turnovers you created and being on a garbage team that losses every week -- is not the same thing. i am sorry it is not.