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Daniel Jones and picks or Sunshine?

adamg : 9/29/2020 1:02 am
Let's say we land the top pick. And we have Trevor Lawrence sitting pretty. Is it a slam dunk that we should move on from Jones? Or are we so devastated across the board that we should trade down for tons of picks?

I'm just curious where BBI sits on Jones. IMHO you have to take Sunshine. But if you think Jones has the potential to be a great, don't you have to consider the trade value of TL?
It is not even a consideration  
Go Terps : 9/29/2020 1:05 am : link
Lawrence can already start looking at property in Hoboken. It's a race to the bottom between the Giants and Jets.

If the Giants have the first pick and pass on Lawrence we should all abandon ship.
Giants  
TommyWiseau : 9/29/2020 1:06 am : link
won't have the first pick. The Jets schedule is just as, if not harder then our's. We always seem to win a meaningless game week 17 to move us down in the draft
If we earn the first pick  
JoeyBigBlue : 9/29/2020 1:14 am : link
Then you fire everyone and hire a new GM and coach. Take Trevor Lawrence and don’t look back. Lawrence is probably the best QB prospect of all time.
Glad I'm on the same page with ya'll  
adamg : 9/29/2020 1:31 am : link
.
Landing  
jtfuoco : 9/29/2020 1:38 am : link
The number 1 pick this year may be the only way to save this franchise at this point its time for a complete reboot starting with Trevor a new GM and his coach. Judge he was a nice story but I don't see him doing anything that separates him from all the other BB disciples that have all failed
Take trevor lawrence  
Keyser : 9/29/2020 4:28 am : link
1978 will look like a picnic if they pass on Lawrence.
RE: It is not even a consideration  
M.S. : 9/29/2020 4:35 am : link
In comment 14989277 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Lawrence can already start looking at property in Hoboken. It's a race to the bottom between the Giants and Jets.

If the Giants have the first pick and pass on Lawrence we should all abandon ship.

Ship has already sunk.
Sunshine, all day  
Spider43 : 9/29/2020 4:35 am : link
We're not going to be that bad though. As long as someone other than Getts will be picking, I'm okay. And I'm still holding out hope for DJ, what can I say, I'm a glutton for pain.
Our 1sr draft picks....if not for QB  
George from PA : 9/29/2020 5:17 am : link
Should be edge or corner.

3rd down must get fixed.

I hope OL figures it out.....
You take Lawrence  
Tuckrule : 9/29/2020 5:48 am : link
If we don’t get the 1 I look at the Miami edge rusher or the tackle from Oregon.
I'll take Justin Fields all day over Jones  
CromartiesKid21 : 9/29/2020 5:57 am : link
the talent level isn't really close.
I am not so sure that  
rocco8112 : 9/29/2020 6:23 am : link
if Jones in the next 13 games starts looking better and showing progress, that the Giants jump ship.

Thing is, that likely means the team is not picking one anyway.

What a mess, I so badly want to see a win this Sunday, but we all know they are likely to get obliterated.
RE: You take Lawrence  
BlueLou'sBack : 9/29/2020 6:28 am : link
In comment 14989317 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
If we don’t get the 1 I look at the Miami edge rusher or the tackle from Oregon.


Would you move Sewell inside to OG or OC?

I am not sure the Giant aren't pretty well set at OT with Thomas and Peart, and I doubt either of them would make a good interior OL.
if we get the first pick then we were 0-16  
markky : 9/29/2020 6:40 am : link
of course you move on.
This is not even a question..  
Sean : 9/29/2020 7:10 am : link
If the Giants pick #1 it likely means Jones was bad. You draft Lawrence and trade Jones for whatever you can get.
RE: I'll take Justin Fields all day over Jones  
SoZKillA : 9/29/2020 7:14 am : link
In comment 14989319 CromartiesKid21 said:
Quote:
the talent level isn't really close.


Are you kidding me? Lol. Lawrence is a generational type QB, what even is Fields ceiling?
This shouldn’t even be a debate for the other 31 teams in the league  
The_Boss : 9/29/2020 7:35 am : link
But if Dave is still here, it is probably DJ and the picks....
RE: RE: I'll take Justin Fields all day over Jones  
BigBlueShock : 9/29/2020 8:06 am : link
In comment 14989338 SoZKillA said:
Quote:
In comment 14989319 CromartiesKid21 said:


Quote:


the talent level isn't really close.



Are you kidding me? Lol. Lawrence is a generational type QB, what even is Fields ceiling?

He said Fields over JONES not Lawrence
and what is Trevor Lawrence going to solve with the shit-show support  
Giants61 : 9/29/2020 8:07 am : link
which DJ has? Not a very good OL, no WR other than Slayton, no TE to speak of, no running game. Getting the latest shiny toy is not going to solve that. Hasn't history shown us that?
Unless someone offers you a deal...  
Capt. Don : 9/29/2020 8:11 am : link
that somehow ensures we get Sewell plus a cache of picks, you take Lawrence. I like Jones a lot and I think he could be really good but Lawrence is truly a generational talent at the most important position in sports. It also allows us a reset on the 5 years with a QB on a rookie deal.

The real question is if you have a chance to take Fields, do you make the same move.
Lawrence.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/29/2020 8:18 am : link
And you don't think twice.
RE: I'll take Justin Fields all day over Jones  
bw in dc : 9/29/2020 8:20 am : link
In comment 14989319 CromartiesKid21 said:
Quote:
the talent level isn't really close.


So if we have the first pick you are taking Fields?

I’m not a Fields guy, would rank him third in this class right now behind Lawrence and Lance, but you aren’t alone in this thinking. There are people who do like Fields over Lawrence. Herbstreit, I think, falls into that camp....
I might think differently if it actually happens  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2020 8:25 am : link
But if Giants get 1 i am trading it for a herschel walker type deal and making this team better..You can win with Jones, getting the generational qb does not guarantee you anything..

If we are picking first overall  
AcesUp : 9/29/2020 8:31 am : link
Then Jones probably ain’t the guy. It’s been said before but that’s the answer, which is made even easier with the presence of a Lawrence level prospect.

The bigger question is, what do the Giants do if Jones shows the occasional flash but still flatlines in his progression and they’re picking 4th or 5th and the 2nd best QB is on the board? That’s a trickier question - I’d lean towards riding it out with Jones unless that guy is the clear cut best player on the board but it will depend on a bunch of different factors.
RE: If we are picking first overall  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2020 8:35 am : link
In comment 14989390 AcesUp said:
Quote:
Then Jones probably ain’t the guy. It’s been said before but that’s the answer, which is made even easier with the presence of a Lawrence level prospect.

The bigger question is, what do the Giants do if Jones shows the occasional flash but still flatlines in his progression and they’re picking 4th or 5th and the 2nd best QB is on the board? That’s a trickier question - I’d lean towards riding it out with Jones unless that guy is the clear cut best player on the board but it will depend on a bunch of different factors.


Most teams will give a 1st round pick qb 4 years and thrn cut bait..

I’m aware of that  
AcesUp : 9/29/2020 8:41 am : link
But most teams aren’t picking in the Top5 every year and the teams that do that wait until year 5 tend to show that it was a mistake to wait that long in hindsight.

I’m still optimistic on Jones for the record, he’s still got 13 games before we’re seriously having this discussion. However the scenarios suggested by the OP would imply that Jones was pretty bad or at the very best, stalled in his progression this year.
You take Lawrence and don’t think twice  
Saquads26 : 9/29/2020 8:47 am : link
.
Zero debate  
TyreeHelmet : 9/29/2020 8:48 am : link
If they have the 1st pick it has to be Lawrence.
I’m a Jones guy but you have to go Lawrence  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 8:50 am : link
Jones would net a return anyway so we’d get some of that investment back. You think Billy boy wouldn’t give a decent pick for him? Bunch of other teams would be interested too.
Too much  
crick n NC : 9/29/2020 8:54 am : link
Missing from that scenario to make that decision in my opinion.
How many of the top qbs were "generational qbs"  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2020 8:55 am : link
coming out of college? How many times do these generational qbs bust? The colts had 2 and won 1 superbowl..

What happens when you draft Lawrence and he busts?
If we have the first pick  
Biteymax22 : 9/29/2020 8:57 am : link
I'll be very comfortable with moving on from Jones and we'll also more than likely have a new GM that will want "his guy" anyway.

With that being said its week 3. We have a new coach, a lot of young players and a tough opening schedule. The first half of this season was always going to be much tougher than the second half.
RE: How many of the top qbs were  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 8:59 am : link
In comment 14989429 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
coming out of college? How many times do these generational qbs bust? The colts had 2 and won 1 superbowl..

What happens when you draft Lawrence and he busts?


Same as now?

We can still get a decent return on Jones IMO - a 3rd at the very least likely more considering what he's shown vs a guy like Rosen who's garbage. I even think Darnold will net a 3rd, minimum if the Jets were to draft Lawrence.

So in this scenario it would be Lawrence and an extra 2 - you wouldn't sign up for that?
RE: How many of the top qbs were  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/29/2020 9:01 am : link
In comment 14989429 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
coming out of college? How many times do these generational qbs bust? The colts had 2 and won 1 superbowl..

What happens when you draft Lawrence and he busts?


You make a good point. He plays with great talent in a poor conference. I think more needs to be learned about Lawrence. The question the Giants have to answer is when the team is good enough around him can lead them to a championship.
RE: RE: How many of the top qbs were  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2020 9:05 am : link
In comment 14989439 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14989429 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


coming out of college? How many times do these generational qbs bust? The colts had 2 and won 1 superbowl..

What happens when you draft Lawrence and he busts?



Same as now?

We can still get a decent return on Jones IMO - a 3rd at the very least likely more considering what he's shown vs a guy like Rosen who's garbage. I even think Darnold will net a 3rd, minimum if the Jets were to draft Lawrence.

So in this scenario it would be Lawrence and an extra 2 - you wouldn't sign up for that?


I would rather have Jones and a bunch of picks, but i also still believe you can win with Jones..

People go gaga over these generational qbs they will give up a ton to get him..

I would ratger build a great team around jones than have Lawrence.
The next GM will absolutely have to consider the trade value  
LBH15 : 9/29/2020 9:06 am : link
of the picks he can get versus drafting Lawrence. The team just needs so much more talent everywhere and nobody wants to wait years to draft it. Already wasted years relying on Gettleman to do it, but appears he has failed.

It has only been a few games in 2020, but a few trends are already showing including:

- The Offense needs playmakers at WR, TE & probably RB.
- The Offensive Line still needs better players (although some may exist on the bench as rookies...TBD).
- Daniel Jones has not shown well in 2020 but QB development is not linear so got to give him the full season to tell the story.
- Nobody at Edge Rusher or OLB is worth a damn.
- Secondary still needs another reliable CB.

Now that is a long laundry list, but if you parlay a #1 overall pick into a blue chip and a few red chips in 2021 draft and probably some more red chips in 2022 draft, then you really can fast-forward with a new core group. Besides, if the laundry list is this long, do you really want to just throw Lawrence behind a crappy Offense and no Defense?

Will have to assess Lawrence (and Jones) more as the season goes on. I also don't recall Lawrence being a slam dunk last year when I watched him a few times. Thought he struggled a bit but the overall talent level of Clemson made up for it.

I could subscribe to Lawrence but you have to assess all options first. This team cannot have another "road not taken" error in judgment as to how to rebuild a team.
What if the Jets offer you  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2020 9:09 am : link
Their 1st, seahawks 1st, their 2nd and their 2 1sts next year?
Luck and Manning didn't bust though  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 9:10 am : link
and Manning would have won more if it weren't for a couple guys named Brady and Belichick. Luck had took a horrendously constructed team from 2-14 to 11-5 his rookie year (playoffs his first 3 years) which peaked at an AFCC loss to the Pats. They finally started drafting better but it was too late, he retired.

There's almost no risk drafting Lawrence and far less risk than passing on him and hoping all the picks we get back in a trade work out and make us contenders more quickly.
what are the generational QB's that teams go gaga over?  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 9:11 am : link
outside of Robert Griffin whom everyone knew the risks dating back to his college injuries, who's going to be ranked as highly as Lawrence since Luck?
nygiants16  
Sean : 9/29/2020 9:12 am : link
An issue with keeping Jones would also be the fact that he would be entering year 3 of his rookie contract. The decision to pay him would be fast approaching with a roster still lacking talent.

Lawrence is the better prospect and resets the clock.
RE: Luck and Manning didn't bust though  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2020 9:13 am : link
In comment 14989454 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and Manning would have won more if it weren't for a couple guys named Brady and Belichick. Luck had took a horrendously constructed team from 2-14 to 11-5 his rookie year (playoffs his first 3 years) which peaked at an AFCC loss to the Pats. They finally started drafting better but it was too late, he retired.

There's almost no risk drafting Lawrence and far less risk than passing on him and hoping all the picks we get back in a trade work out and make us contenders more quickly.


That is my point, Lawrence can live up to the hype and you win nothing with him..

I would rather build a great team around Jones with the picks you can get than draft Lawrence..
RE: nygiants16  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2020 9:13 am : link
In comment 14989460 Sean said:
Quote:
An issue with keeping Jones would also be the fact that he would be entering year 3 of his rookie contract. The decision to pay him would be fast approaching with a roster still lacking talent.

Lawrence is the better prospect and resets the clock.


That is why you trade the pick get a bunch of picks, plus cap space to make the tram great around him..

RE: what are the generational QB's that teams go gaga over?  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2020 9:14 am : link
In comment 14989458 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
outside of Robert Griffin whom everyone knew the risks dating back to his college injuries, who's going to be ranked as highly as Lawrence since Luck?


What i meant was trams that need a qb will trade a premium for the qb they love, especially the generational ones..
For shits and giggles  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2020 9:16 am : link
Jets offer their 1st, seahawks 1st, 2nd and 2 1sts next year for the number 1 pick, you say no?
There is almost no risk drafting Lawrence?  
LBH15 : 9/29/2020 9:17 am : link
No such thing when you pick a QB and put him on a continuing losing team.
You take Lawrence  
Harvest Blend : 9/29/2020 9:18 am : link
and the pick(s) you can get for Jones.

Here is the problem  
pjcas18 : 9/29/2020 9:19 am : link
with Lawrence.

Today, the Giants have a ton of holes, and many people don't count QB among them.

If the Giants get a top pick next year and draft Lawrence, they still have a ton of holes and they didn't use their top pick to fill one of the holes.

They may upgrade QB, but are they better with Lawrence and the same team (plus 2021 other picks they make/FA additions) or are they better with Jones and more premium picks including their 1st that fill gaping holes (edge, OL, etc.)

Lawrence is a generational QB.  
Section331 : 9/29/2020 9:20 am : link
You take him if you have the chance. Even if you think DJ is a league average, or slightly above league average QB, you take the generational player. The extra players you would recoup from a trade would not make up for the difference in skill level between Lawrence and Jones.

The trade or draft question really comes in if you have the 2nd or 3rd pick. Do you take a guy like OSU's Justin Fields, or trade the pick? Then you're making the evaluation of who you think would be better - Fields or Jones? Even if you think Fields will be slightly better, the difference may not be enough to bypass multiple picks.
RE: You take Lawrence  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2020 9:21 am : link
In comment 14989468 Harvest Blend said:
Quote:
and the pick(s) you can get for Jones.


and how many picks you think you are getting for jones?
Thing is though  
Harvest Blend : 9/29/2020 9:22 am : link
is that we're just chasing our tails again. The Giants don't trade down, they just don't, be it 1st pick though 32nd.
loving a QB  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 9:23 am : link
is up to an individual team. Just going off of SY's rankings Haskins was an 81, Jones 80, Murray 77. Rosen 89, Mayfield 86, Darnold 81. I think his highest scored QB of the last 5 or 6 years was Goff with an 86. None of these guys were loved by everyone, major downsides to all of them.

Point being Lawrence will be in the 90's, which puts him in rare company. There will be very few knocks on him and 0 teams that wouldn't draft him. We haven't seen that since 2011.
RE: Here is the problem  
Section331 : 9/29/2020 9:23 am : link
In comment 14989469 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
with Lawrence.

Today, the Giants have a ton of holes, and many people don't count QB among them.

If the Giants get a top pick next year and draft Lawrence, they still have a ton of holes and they didn't use their top pick to fill one of the holes.

They may upgrade QB, but are they better with Lawrence and the same team (plus 2021 other picks they make/FA additions) or are they better with Jones and more premium picks including their 1st that fill gaping holes (edge, OL, etc.)


But you are still stuck with an at best league average QB, when that is the position that is hardest to upgrade. You don't know when a guy like Lawrence is going to become available again. I think you have to take a generational player at the most important position on the field.
loving a QB  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 9:23 am : link
is up to an individual team. Just going off of SY's rankings Haskins was an 81, Jones 80, Murray 77. Rosen 89, Mayfield 86, Darnold 81. I think his highest scored QB of the last 5 or 6 years was Goff with an 86. None of these guys were loved by everyone, major downsides to all of them.

Point being Lawrence will be in the 90's, which puts him in rare company. There will be very few knocks on him and 0 teams that wouldn't draft him. We haven't seen that since 2011.
RE: RE: You take Lawrence  
Harvest Blend : 9/29/2020 9:24 am : link
In comment 14989474 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 14989468 Harvest Blend said:


Quote:


and the pick(s) you can get for Jones.




and how many picks you think you are getting for jones?


Well I don't know. That's why I said pick(s). Could be one 2nd, could be two 3rd's.
sorry Rosen then Goff  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 9:25 am : link
.
Go Terps  
ryanmkeane : 9/29/2020 9:30 am : link
Daniel Jones is a better quarterback at this point in his career than Eli Manning was, and he has a significantly worse team around him. Get over it, he’s our guy.
RE: RE: Here is the problem  
pjcas18 : 9/29/2020 9:33 am : link
In comment 14989479 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 14989469 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


with Lawrence.

Today, the Giants have a ton of holes, and many people don't count QB among them.

If the Giants get a top pick next year and draft Lawrence, they still have a ton of holes and they didn't use their top pick to fill one of the holes.

They may upgrade QB, but are they better with Lawrence and the same team (plus 2021 other picks they make/FA additions) or are they better with Jones and more premium picks including their 1st that fill gaping holes (edge, OL, etc.)




But you are still stuck with an at best league average QB, when that is the position that is hardest to upgrade. You don't know when a guy like Lawrence is going to become available again. I think you have to take a generational player at the most important position on the field.


Is he league average? Do we know?

I don't.

It would be hard to pass up Lawrence, especially if you could trade Jones for assets. Jones has done more good than Rosen, but if you follow that blueprint, the Cardinals drafted Rosen then took Murray with the #1 and got just a 2nd for Rosen.

Would you do that? Draft Lawrence and trade Jones for a 2nd?

Seems compelling if you believe Lawrence is the real deal and Jones is league average.

RE: Here is the problem  
AcesUp : 9/29/2020 9:34 am : link
In comment 14989469 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
with Lawrence.

Today, the Giants have a ton of holes, and many people don't count QB among them.

If the Giants get a top pick next year and draft Lawrence, they still have a ton of holes and they didn't use their top pick to fill one of the holes.

They may upgrade QB, but are they better with Lawrence and the same team (plus 2021 other picks they make/FA additions) or are they better with Jones and more premium picks including their 1st that fill gaping holes (edge, OL, etc.)


If Lawrence is even close to the level prospect that the consensus seems to project him at, and the eyeball test checks out for sure, then 2021 is completely meaningless in the context of what he could do for a franchise. Again, picking first overall would certainly make QB a question mark as well. You don’t pick in that slot without bad QB play.
RE: There is almost no risk drafting Lawrence?  
crick n NC : 9/29/2020 9:35 am : link
In comment 14989467 LBH15 said:
Quote:
No such thing when you pick a QB and put him on a continuing losing team.


Yep
Here’s an idea  
ryanmkeane : 9/29/2020 9:38 am : link
how about we just start over every year at QB. I mean why not? If we take Lawrence and we go 2-14, we have to look at QB again right?

You guys are absolutely blind when it comes to QB development. It’s really starting to get annoying. Daniel Jones has played 15 NFL games. He broke rookie records last year. He’s playing in a completely new system, new OL, new coach, with almost no practices to boot. Hell its basically preseason still.

Just be fucking patient with Daniel Jones, the results are going to come. If you can’t wait more than 15 games for a young QB to develop on a bad team, then you don’t understand how the position works and you need to start rooting for another team.

We aren’t drafting Trevor Lawrence. You guys are starting to sound like Matt Lombardo. Shut the fuck up about it already.
I'm not kidding when I say this...  
bw in dc : 9/29/2020 9:39 am : link
if players in high school were eligible to be drafted I have NO doubt Lawrence would have been a top five pick. NO doubt. I saw him play and I would have taken him #1.

He would have been the first pick in the draft after his freshman year at Clemson. After his sophomore year. And after this year, he'll finally taste that champagne...

He obviously has some rough edges to this game, but the sky is the limit. You really have to take him and auction off the inferior player in Jones...
Is Jones playing badly and is that a main factor  
pjcas18 : 9/29/2020 9:40 am : link
in the Giants record?

it's a good discussion.

If Mahomes or Lamar or Rodgers were Giants QB, do you think their record is not 0 - 3, was it better than 4 - 12 last year?

And consider them (Mahomes, Lamar, and Rodgers - as rookies last year with the Giants - not as veterans). Also consider Mahomes and Rodgers didn't play as rookies - one mediocre game for Mahomes and Rodgers sat the bench for 3 years, and Lamar played, but didn't pass much)

I'm not convinced replacing Jones changes much on the exact same team.
It really comes down what you think of jones  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2020 9:40 am : link
If you think he can win games at qb for you, you want to trade the pick, if you think jones is below average you want to take Lawrence
we'd get atleast a 2 for Jones, IMO  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 9:40 am : link
Rosen completed 55% of his passes with Arizona and had more INT's than TD's - he also had 10 fumbles. Just as shitty a team as the Giants, IMO.

Then Murray comes along...

I personally don't think this is close. You take the clear cut better prospect and a solid pick back from trading Jones and away you go.
RE: It really comes down what you think of jones  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 9:43 am : link
In comment 14989511 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
If you think he can win games at qb for you, you want to trade the pick, if you think jones is below average you want to take Lawrence


Not me. I think we can win with Jones but far more needs to go right for that to happen. We get a ton of wiggle room with the likely better QB in Lawrence..
RE: Thing is though  
LBH15 : 9/29/2020 9:43 am : link
In comment 14989475 Harvest Blend said:
Quote:
is that we're just chasing our tails again. The Giants don't trade down, they just don't, be it 1st pick though 32nd.


Maybe the right GM will.
UConn  
ryanmkeane : 9/29/2020 9:44 am : link
just because your team sucks doesn’t mean the franchise QB isn’t the answer. Should the Lions have traded Matthew Stafford? Should the Colts have traded Peyton Manning after he led the league in turnovers?
I just don't trust the draft - every year there are "generational"  
PatersonPlank : 9/29/2020 9:45 am : link
picks. Who knows if Lawrence will be really good or the next Darnold? I could list all the generational QB's who flopped, but I won't waste everyone's time. Let wait and see what happens with Jones. I don't think its anywhere near as clear cut as some make it.
RE: RE: Thing is though  
Harvest Blend : 9/29/2020 9:46 am : link
In comment 14989518 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14989475 Harvest Blend said:


Quote:


is that we're just chasing our tails again. The Giants don't trade down, they just don't, be it 1st pick though 32nd.



Maybe the right GM will.


Maybe being the key word. Show me then I'll believe it. The evidence is pretty overwhelming that they won't.
RE: UConn  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 9:46 am : link
In comment 14989520 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
just because your team sucks doesn’t mean the franchise QB isn’t the answer. Should the Lions have traded Matthew Stafford? Should the Colts have traded Peyton Manning after he led the league in turnovers?


I never said Jones couldn't be the answer. Please re-read the above.
RE: I'm not kidding when I say this...  
LBH15 : 9/29/2020 9:47 am : link
In comment 14989508 bw in dc said:
Quote:
if players in high school were eligible to be drafted I have NO doubt Lawrence would have been a top five pick. NO doubt. I saw him play and I would have taken him #1.

He would have been the first pick in the draft after his freshman year at Clemson. After his sophomore year. And after this year, he'll finally taste that champagne...

He obviously has some rough edges to this game, but the sky is the limit. You really have to take him and auction off the inferior player in Jones...


Pretty strong post here. You are basically describing the NFL version of Lebron James. Are you really that certain?
RE: I might think differently if it actually happens  
MotownGIANTS : 9/29/2020 9:47 am : link
In comment 14989382 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
But if Giants get 1 i am trading it for a herschel walker type deal and making this team better..You can win with Jones, getting the generational qb does not guarantee you anything..


This we get an a CENTER, WRs, edge rusher and CB out of the deal .... Jones is ok ....
UConn I gotcha  
ryanmkeane : 9/29/2020 9:48 am : link
I’m just saying, if we used the logic of “just take the better player” at QB, teams would be starting over every 3 years and have a different QB every 3 years. It just doesn’t work that way. When you pick a guy 6 overall and he shows a lot, and you have conviction on him, you keep him and build around him. You don’t just quit and take the shiny thing 2 years later.
....  
ryanmkeane : 9/29/2020 9:50 am : link
I’m somewhat amazed and disappointed in posters who are ready to move on from Daniel Jones. He’s played 15 games on a shit team. Hell, he’s one of the only reasons we’ve actually won some games last season. I have a feeling these posters will be singing a different tune 2 months from now.
After one season  
pjcas18 : 9/29/2020 9:50 am : link
a lot of people had Josh Allen as a punch line, after two slight improvement, now most people feel like he's one of the best young QB's in the league.

I feel like if the scouts like Lawrence physically and mentally he'd be hard to pass up, but it doesn't mean he'd even be an improvement over Jones.

RE: RE: RE: Thing is though  
LBH15 : 9/29/2020 9:54 am : link
In comment 14989524 Harvest Blend said:
Quote:
In comment 14989518 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 14989475 Harvest Blend said:


Quote:


is that we're just chasing our tails again. The Giants don't trade down, they just don't, be it 1st pick though 32nd.



Maybe the right GM will.



Maybe being the key word. Show me then I'll believe it. The evidence is pretty overwhelming that they won't.


You want me to show you a GM that I don't know, who isn't hired yet, trade away a #1 pick we don't have yet?

I think ridiculous is the key word.
Last weekend was the 1st  
section125 : 9/29/2020 9:55 am : link
time I was down on Jones. After watching Mahomes toy with Baltimore last night, Lawrence would have to be the pick if they get the #1. I don't think he can do the things that Mahomes does, but I don't think he would be that far off.

Of course, KC's receivers would make any QB with a pulse look good.
RE: Lawrence is a generational QB.  
LBH15 : 9/29/2020 9:56 am : link
In comment 14989471 Section331 said:
Quote:
.


Generations on BBI last about a year or so.
I think this will resolve itself  
ron mexico : 9/29/2020 9:56 am : link
Jones has 13 games to play better and move us out of draft position to get TL

All he has to do is win 4-5 games
RE: RE: RE: RE: Thing is though  
Harvest Blend : 9/29/2020 9:57 am : link
In comment 14989544 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14989524 Harvest Blend said:


Quote:


In comment 14989518 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 14989475 Harvest Blend said:


Quote:


is that we're just chasing our tails again. The Giants don't trade down, they just don't, be it 1st pick though 32nd.



Maybe the right GM will.



Maybe being the key word. Show me then I'll believe it. The evidence is pretty overwhelming that they won't.



You want me to show you a GM that I don't know, who isn't hired yet, trade away a #1 pick we don't have yet?

I think ridiculous is the key word.


Show me one from the Giants. Show me one the last 15 years. Show me one who did it when the decision was slapping him in the face.
RE: ....  
LBH15 : 9/29/2020 9:58 am : link
In comment 14989534 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
I’m somewhat amazed and disappointed in posters who are ready to move on from Daniel Jones. He’s played 15 games on a shit team. Hell, he’s one of the only reasons we’ve actually won some games last season. I have a feeling these posters will be singing a different tune 2 months from now.


I don't disagree ryan. Lots of snap judgments here though because of the poor start of course by NYG and Jones.
RE: ....  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 9:58 am : link
In comment 14989534 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
I’m somewhat amazed and disappointed in posters who are ready to move on from Daniel Jones. He’s played 15 games on a shit team. Hell, he’s one of the only reasons we’ve actually won some games last season. I have a feeling these posters will be singing a different tune 2 months from now.


I'm not ready to move on from him. There's really only 1 guy that would make me feel that way and it happens to come in this years draft.

It has to be on the table at the bare minimum.
Why wouldn't I want to move on from him for a better QB?  
Greg from LI : 9/29/2020 10:00 am : link
I never wanted Daniel Jones in the first place. He's been better than I expected, but not particularly impressive in any way. He's not the main problem, but he doesn't look like a solution either.
RE: ....  
AcesUp : 9/29/2020 10:00 am : link
In comment 14989534 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
I’m somewhat amazed and disappointed in posters who are ready to move on from Daniel Jones. He’s played 15 games on a shit team. Hell, he’s one of the only reasons we’ve actually won some games last season. I have a feeling these posters will be singing a different tune 2 months from now.


There is nuance to this discussion and we’re also dealing with a projection, a negative one at that since the hypothetical is one that suggests we were the worst team in football this year. Saying we should take a once and a decade QB prospect if we’re picking first overall in that scenario is not giving up on Jones after 15 games.
What’s ironic is that Jets and Giants  
ryanmkeane : 9/29/2020 10:01 am : link
could be 1 and 2, and not need a QB. Funny how that goes.
RE: Why wouldn't I want to move on from him for a better QB?  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2020 10:02 am : link
In comment 14989558 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I never wanted Daniel Jones in the first place. He's been better than I expected, but not particularly impressive in any way. He's not the main problem, but he doesn't look like a solution either.


How do you know Lawrence is a better qb? There is no guarantee he becomes a great qb..
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Thing is though  
LBH15 : 9/29/2020 10:02 am : link
In comment 14989553 Harvest Blend said:
Quote:
In comment 14989544 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 14989524 Harvest Blend said:


Quote:


In comment 14989518 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 14989475 Harvest Blend said:


Quote:


is that we're just chasing our tails again. The Giants don't trade down, they just don't, be it 1st pick though 32nd.



Maybe the right GM will.



Maybe being the key word. Show me then I'll believe it. The evidence is pretty overwhelming that they won't.



You want me to show you a GM that I don't know, who isn't hired yet, trade away a #1 pick we don't have yet?

I think ridiculous is the key word.



Show me one from the Giants. Show me one the last 15 years. Show me one who did it when the decision was slapping him in the face.


You got me, I cannot.

Though, I can show you a team that has declined precipitously over most of that time frame and really should have done this before.
Greg  
ryanmkeane : 9/29/2020 10:02 am : link
just an honest question, is there a QB in the history of the NFL who, in his first 16 games, looked really really good on a horrible team?

Mark Sanchez looked awesome his first 2 years. They had a great team, and it turns out he was a horrible quarterback.
I also think "generational" is taken way out of context  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 10:02 am : link
a poster above said he can name all the generational QB's that have busted but then didn't want to do that.

Well, I want to see that list. The last one was BOB, kind of. But many were scared of that knee and his attitude so I wouldn't consider that a candidate.

The last one was Luck, before that was Manning. Maybe Cam Newton in between them? What am I missing? Don't mistake the #1 pick for a can't miss prospect, no one thought Jameis Winston was "generational."
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Thing is though  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2020 10:03 am : link
In comment 14989553 Harvest Blend said:
Quote:
In comment 14989544 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 14989524 Harvest Blend said:


Quote:


In comment 14989518 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 14989475 Harvest Blend said:


Quote:


is that we're just chasing our tails again. The Giants don't trade down, they just don't, be it 1st pick though 32nd.



Maybe the right GM will.



Maybe being the key word. Show me then I'll believe it. The evidence is pretty overwhelming that they won't.



You want me to show you a GM that I don't know, who isn't hired yet, trade away a #1 pick we don't have yet?

I think ridiculous is the key word.



Show me one from the Giants. Show me one the last 15 years. Show me one who did it when the decision was slapping him in the face.


Giants did it for Kiwanuka, they traded down
RE: I also think  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2020 10:04 am : link
In comment 14989567 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
a poster above said he can name all the generational QB's that have busted but then didn't want to do that.

Well, I want to see that list. The last one was BOB, kind of. But many were scared of that knee and his attitude so I wouldn't consider that a candidate.

The last one was Luck, before that was Manning. Maybe Cam Newton in between them? What am I missing? Don't mistake the #1 pick for a can't miss prospect, no one thought Jameis Winston was "generational."


If you are referring to me where did i say generational talents bust?

I said there iz no guarantee you are going to win anything even with generational talents...
RE: RE: Why wouldn't I want to move on from him for a better QB?  
LBH15 : 9/29/2020 10:04 am : link
In comment 14989564 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 14989558 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


I never wanted Daniel Jones in the first place. He's been better than I expected, but not particularly impressive in any way. He's not the main problem, but he doesn't look like a solution either.



How do you know Lawrence is a better qb? There is no guarantee he becomes a great qb..


Read above. Lawrence comes with basically no risk.
RE: Greg  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 10:05 am : link
In comment 14989566 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
just an honest question, is there a QB in the history of the NFL who, in his first 16 games, looked really really good on a horrible team?

Mark Sanchez looked awesome his first 2 years. They had a great team, and it turns out he was a horrible quarterback.


Andrew Luck. 28 TD's as a rookie, led them to the playoffs. High INT's but looked the part immediately.
Me personally  
ryanmkeane : 9/29/2020 10:05 am : link
I was actually shocked that Jones looked as good as he did as a rookie in some games. He turned it over a bunch yes, as most rookies do, and he’s still doing it. Needs to be corrected ASAP. But for the way he’s played I figured most posters would be delighted. Not the case apparently.
Really really good?  
Greg from LI : 9/29/2020 10:06 am : link
I'd settle for not giving away the football as if he were getting a bonus for turnovers.
RE: RE: I also think  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 10:06 am : link
In comment 14989574 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 14989567 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


If you are referring to me where did i say generational talents bust?

I said there iz no guarantee you are going to win anything even with generational talents...


I just don't trust the draft - every year there are "generational"
PatersonPlank : 9:45 am : link : reply
picks. Who knows if Lawrence will be really good or the next Darnold? I could list all the generational QB's who flopped, but I won't waste everyone's time. Let wait and see what happens with Jones. I don't think its anywhere near as clear cut as some make it.
RE: Why wouldn't I want to move on from him for a better QB?  
pjcas18 : 9/29/2020 10:06 am : link
In comment 14989558 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I never wanted Daniel Jones in the first place. He's been better than I expected, but not particularly impressive in any way. He's not the main problem, but he doesn't look like a solution either.


You should want to move on from him, if the other QB is better - but more importantly gives your team a better chance to win.

If scouts agree Lawrence is the second coming, I think it's a no-brainer, but I do come back to the question of imagine in your mind the best QB possible - whether it's Mahomes or Wilson or Marino or Peyton or Brady or Phil Simms - whoever it is - picture them as rookie - are the Giants better than 4 - 12 (or whatever they were once Jones took over). Are the Giants better than 0 - 3 this year? Is the offense moving?

RE: I also think  
Greg from LI : 9/29/2020 10:08 am : link
In comment 14989567 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
a poster above said he can name all the generational QB's that have busted but then didn't want to do that.

Well, I want to see that list. The last one was BOB, kind of. But many were scared of that knee and his attitude so I wouldn't consider that a candidate.

The last one was Luck, before that was Manning. Maybe Cam Newton in between them? What am I missing? Don't mistake the #1 pick for a can't miss prospect, no one thought Jameis Winston was "generational."


I don't know, Leaf maybe since there was a lot of debate at the time whether he or Peyton would go #1 overall.

Jeff George had generational arm talent but a terrible attitude.
UConn  
ryanmkeane : 9/29/2020 10:09 am : link
Andrew Luck had 23 passing TD and 18 picks. Daniel Jones had 24 TD and 12 picks, although in only 12 games.

If Jones plays the whole season he probably winds up with 30 TD and 15-15 picks.

Jones’ completion percentage was almost 7 points higher than Luck’s rookie season. Just what about Andrew Luck was better than Jones in their rookie seasons?
Jones had a couple of monster games against lousy defenses  
Greg from LI : 9/29/2020 10:13 am : link
That boosted his overall stats quite a bit. A few huge games and a bunch of mediocre-to-terrible games.
I think putting Russell Wilson or Mahomes on the Giants  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 10:14 am : link
likely makes them around .500 team as currently constructed. Seahawks have much better weapons this year than they have in the past but Wilson has dealt with some rotten offenses there before and still flourished. We obviously haven't seen what Mahomes can do with a subpar supporting cast but I'm guessing it would still be "average" production.

I really don't think this is as unprecedented as people think. The Cardinals gained 2.5 wins in Murray's rookie year taking over a horrid team (just like ours), and is 2-1 so far in year 2. He isn't Wilson/Mahomes but its already working. 1 savvy trade for Hopkins makes them dangerous on offense.
Wilson has had crappy olines  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2020 10:16 am : link
he could easily make this team better
I will take Lawrence  
LBH15 : 9/29/2020 10:16 am : link
if you say he's definitely Russell Wilson 2.0
RE: UConn  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 10:17 am : link
In comment 14989586 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Andrew Luck had 23 passing TD and 18 picks. Daniel Jones had 24 TD and 12 picks, although in only 12 games.

If Jones plays the whole season he probably winds up with 30 TD and 15-15 picks.

Jones’ completion percentage was almost 7 points higher than Luck’s rookie season. Just what about Andrew Luck was better than Jones in their rookie seasons?


He also had 5 rushing TD's which you have to include considering his was able to create time and pick up first downs with his feet (and was really good at the goal line).

Are we going to just forget those 11 wins his rookie year? Stats tell part of the story - Luck was dangerous, took some risks but always seemed to make a big play when they needed it. I've seen that from Jones before, but not as often. Luck constantly had them.
Colts went from 3-13 Peyton's rookie year  
Greg from LI : 9/29/2020 10:18 am : link
to 13-3 in his second year, and the players around him on offense were pretty much the same. Yeah, they didn't have Edge in 1998, but they did have a guy named Marshall Faulk who was decent enough.
RE: Wilson has had crappy olines  
Harvest Blend : 9/29/2020 10:20 am : link
In comment 14989598 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
he could easily make this team better


I love Wilson but he's also had a team with a defense that could force a fucking punt once in a while. :)
There is no GM, not even fucking Dave, who would  
The_Boss : 9/29/2020 10:27 am : link
Take Daniel Jones right now (15 nfl starts) over Trevor Lawrence for 2021. My main issue with Jones, and Sy mentions it in the game review, is he is still constantly late in his decision making. If that is the fatal flaw in his game, and it appears it is, is it correctable? That was something I read knocking him pre draft last spring. It’s cool to blow out a bad team occasionally with Jones (like Washington last year) or a thriller vs another mediocre team like Tampa, but he hasn’t proven he can beat good teams. If you have a good QB, you should always have a shot. I don’t feel that way about Jones.
Guys throw around Generational Talent  
ghost718 : 9/29/2020 10:44 am : link
like a Frisbee in the back yard

What happens when Trevor and his receiver build,flips his hair,yells hike,and proceeds to get smashed into tiny little pieces by a 300 pound activist.
RE: Guys throw around Generational Talent  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 11:07 am : link
In comment 14989660 ghost718 said:
Quote:
like a Frisbee in the back yard

What happens when Trevor and his receiver build,flips his hair,yells hike,and proceeds to get smashed into tiny little pieces by a 300 pound activist.


What does the risk getting injured have to do with his talent? Lawrence doesn't have the injury history of a Robert Griffin. If it happens, it would suck and there's nothing you can do about it, same as with Daniel Jones.
RE: Landing  
BMac : 9/29/2020 11:08 am : link
In comment 14989282 jtfuoco said:
Quote:
The number 1 pick this year may be the only way to save this franchise at this point its time for a complete reboot starting with Trevor a new GM and his coach. Judge he was a nice story but I don't see him doing anything that separates him from all the other BB disciples that have all failed


I hope you're not a Doctor..."You have a hangnail; may as well end it all now!" Gettleman is one thing, but Judge cannot possibly be judged yet. It's completely unreasonable.
RE: and what is Trevor Lawrence going to solve with the shit-show support  
BMac : 9/29/2020 11:12 am : link
In comment 14989367 Giants61 said:
Quote:
which DJ has? Not a very good OL, no WR other than Slayton, no TE to speak of, no running game. Getting the latest shiny toy is not going to solve that. Hasn't history shown us that?


+++ for a voice of reason. Shit doesn't happen in a vacuum; you have to consider the supporting cast which doesn't provide much support.
RE: RE: I'm not kidding when I say this...  
bw in dc : 9/29/2020 11:18 am : link
In comment 14989526 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14989508 bw in dc said:


Quote:


if players in high school were eligible to be drafted I have NO doubt Lawrence would have been a top five pick. NO doubt. I saw him play and I would have taken him #1.

He would have been the first pick in the draft after his freshman year at Clemson. After his sophomore year. And after this year, he'll finally taste that champagne...

He obviously has some rough edges to this game, but the sky is the limit. You really have to take him and auction off the inferior player in Jones...



Pretty strong post here. You are basically describing the NFL version of Lebron James. Are you really that certain?


Purely potential. The guy is "five tools" - arm talent, mobility, speed, size, and intellect. And I would say four of those are in the plus-plus category.

But obviously there is no sure thing. It's very difficult to know how someone will ultimately adapt to playing against bigger, stronger, faster.

For me, I thought Elway and Luck were can't miss prospects at QB. I would put Lawrence right into that class.

RE: RE: Guys throw around Generational Talent  
ghost718 : 9/29/2020 11:19 am : link
In comment 14989694 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
What does the risk getting injured have to do with his talent? Lawrence doesn't have the injury history of a Robert Griffin. If it happens, it would suck and there's nothing you can do about it, same as with Daniel Jones.


That's why I brought up Generational Talent,I'm not a big believer in any of that.
RE: RE: RE: Guys throw around Generational Talent  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 11:21 am : link
In comment 14989719 ghost718 said:
Quote:
In comment 14989694 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


What does the risk getting injured have to do with his talent? Lawrence doesn't have the injury history of a Robert Griffin. If it happens, it would suck and there's nothing you can do about it, same as with Daniel Jones.



That's why I brought up Generational Talent,I'm not a big believer in any of that.


I'm very confused. So because you can get injured it means that your talent level doesn't matter?

I genuinely have no idea what this debate is over. Lawrence is a far better prospect than Jones. Both can get injured. What am I missing?
No  
ghost718 : 9/29/2020 11:25 am : link
that's what you said

I'm telling you I don't think he's nearly as good as what people are saying.Can't get much clearer than that
But your comment didn't have anything to do with his play  
Greg from LI : 9/29/2020 11:27 am : link
You asked what happens when he gets hit by a 300 pound lineman.

BTW, you know that has happened to him in college too, right?
Some QB's  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/29/2020 11:27 am : link
PM: Very good oline. HOF WR and another that will be considered. The stretch run with James (another HOF candidate). The TE was a top 5 player for years. A solid offensive line. Multiple pro bowl center.

CW: Had the best OL in the league his first two years. It was so good Foles came it and finished the job. How is Wentz looking now?

RW: Seattle was built around Marshawn and the running game is first three years. Best defense in the league.

BR: TOP OL and running game his first two years. Had a true number one receiver.

EM: We know what he had.

TB: Best coach ever. NE his first few years was a top 3 D. Excellent running game.

PM: Took over a playoff teams. Weapons and speed all over the field. Best TE in the game. Best offensive mind the last twenty years who always fielded a functional OL.

Can someone tell me a elite or franchise QB who did not have very significant help and had success early on?

I don't know how things will end for Jones. I just don't see anywhere on the offense and say wow this guy can really help him. He really has been dealt a bad hand.

RE: No  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 11:28 am : link
In comment 14989735 ghost718 said:
Quote:
that's what you said

I'm telling you I don't think he's nearly as good as what people are saying.Can't get much clearer than that


Well you didn't, you kept citing injuries.
That's not citing injuries  
ghost718 : 9/29/2020 11:30 am : link
That's giving an example of something that could happen.Where did I say that each statement was related
Personally I would trade down  
montanagiant : 9/29/2020 11:30 am : link
You should be able to get a haul for that pick that would greatly help this team.
RE: That's not citing injuries  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 11:32 am : link
In comment 14989744 ghost718 said:
Quote:
That's giving an example of something that could happen.Where did I say that each statement was related


You didn't once say you didn't think he was that good until just before. Prior to that you kept talking about injuries. How else am I supposed to interpret it?

If you don't think Lawrence is as good as everyone else, fine. You are entitled to that. But that isn't what you said previously.
RE: I think this will resolve itself  
giants#1 : 9/29/2020 11:32 am : link
In comment 14989552 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Jones has 13 games to play better and move us out of draft position to get TL

All he has to do is win 4-5 games in an awful division


FIFY

The converse is also true. If they can't win 4-5 games this season, then Jones has shown enough to move on without thinking twice.
You sound like you want to dance  
ghost718 : 9/29/2020 11:33 am : link
Something I said goes against what you believe,and now your twisting things
RE: You sound like you want to dance  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 11:41 am : link
In comment 14989751 ghost718 said:
Quote:
Something I said goes against what you believe,and now your twisting things


Your reading comprehension is extremely poor. I JUST said that if you don't think he's as good as everyone else, fine, you are entitled to that. I'm not even arguing with you on it.

You kept citing injuries, this entire response from me has been based on that. If you don't realize that by now that's on you, no longer responding to you.
RE: After one season  
BlueLou'sBack : 9/29/2020 11:44 am : link
In comment 14989535 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
a lot of people had Josh Allen as a punch line, after two slight improvement, now most people feel like he's one of the best young QB's in the league.

I feel like if the scouts like Lawrence physically and mentally he'd be hard to pass up, but it doesn't mean he'd even be an improvement over Jones.


Allen's play has indeed taken a big jump. Do you think Jones has similar tools to Allen, so that when he "gets it" he will have a similar jump? Because the toolbox counts, it's the basis. Allen's was overloaded coming out, everyone knew that.

But Jones, because of Cutcliffe's coaching, was supposedly much further along. Now, Jones seems to have regressed from year one...

Maybe we overrated DJ last year because Shurmur's system is so easy on QBs?

We have a full season left to review Jones - lets see how it goes  
PatersonPlank : 9/29/2020 11:44 am : link
However in my mind the keys are:
1) How much better do we think Lawrence will be than Jones (given the facts that Jones has 13 games to go and Lawrence's play is pure projection at this point).

2) Is the "delta" (if any) better than trading out and still getting the top player at another position and a few more picks (lets see a "generational" player at another position to keep in theme here).

Projecting if QB's will make it is hard and an inexact science. Trubisky, Darnold, Rosen, (and Jackson on the severely underrated side) are recent examples.

I don't think the question is solely if Lawrence projects to be better than Jones, its how to build a team.
RE: Some QB's  
Greg from LI : 9/29/2020 11:47 am : link
In comment 14989739 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
PM: Very good oline. HOF WR and another that will be considered. The stretch run with James (another HOF candidate). The TE was a top 5 player for years. A solid offensive line. Multiple pro bowl center.


Jeff Saturday wasn't the center in Manning's first few seasons. Marvin Harrison never would have come close to a HOF career if he hadn't played with Manning - he had played three seasons prior to 1998 and done nothing of note. What TE - Dallas Clark? Not on the team in those days. Ken Dilger and Marcus Pollard were the TEs then.


1998 Colts offensive starters (3-13):

QB - Peyton
RB- Faulk
WR - Harrison
WR - Jerome Pathon
TE - Ken Dilger
TE - Marcus Pollard
LT - Tarik Glenn
LG - Steve McKinney
C - Jay Leeuwenberg
RG - Tony Mandarich
RT - Adam Meadows

1999 Colts starters (13-3)

QB - Manning
RB - James
WR - Harrison
WR - Terrence Wilkins
TE - Dilger
TE - Pollard
LT - Glenn
LG - McKinney
C - Larry Moore
RG - Waverly Jackson
RT - Meadows

Hardly some big leap forward in talent from year one to year two. James, yeah, but you could easily argue that he was a bit of a step down from Marshall Faulk. The OL at that point wasn't great - anyone remember Larry Moore or Waverly Jackson? Much as I love Terrence Wilkins as a UVA guy, he was mostly a kick returner in the NFL. Dilger and Pollard were nothing special.

The big difference from 1998 to 1999 for the Colts was a great QB growing into his job.
RE: RE: I think this will resolve itself  
ron mexico : 9/29/2020 11:47 am : link
In comment 14989750 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 14989552 ron mexico said:


Quote:


Jones has 13 games to play better and move us out of draft position to get TL

All he has to do is win 4-5 games in an awful division



FIFY

The converse is also true. If they can't win 4-5 games this season, then Jones has shown enough to move on without thinking twice.


Yup, my thoughts exactly
Paterson  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 11:48 am : link
I don't disagree. However, if you think Lawrence is a top tier prospect that means you think he will be great, supporting cast be damned.

Certain QB's are simply going to elevate bad-mediocre teams. If that's what you think Lawrence will do then he's the pick because it allows you more flexibility long term - you can absorb more misses. If you don't, then trade back back and keep Jones and hope that you can start nailing picks at a higher rate.

That's how I see it atleast.
RE: We have a full season left to review Jones - lets see how it goes  
LBH15 : 9/29/2020 11:50 am : link
In comment 14989769 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
However in my mind the keys are:
1) How much better do we think Lawrence will be than Jones (given the facts that Jones has 13 games to go and Lawrence's play is pure projection at this point).

2) Is the "delta" (if any) better than trading out and still getting the top player at another position and a few more picks (lets see a "generational" player at another position to keep in theme here).

Projecting if QB's will make it is hard and an inexact science. Trubisky, Darnold, Rosen, (and Jackson on the severely underrated side) are recent examples.

I don't think the question is solely if Lawrence projects to be better than Jones, its how to build a team.


Had roughly same thoughts above. Evaluate everything, and pick optimum path for the team not a position.
RE: RE: RE: Here is the problem  
Section331 : 9/29/2020 11:52 am : link
In comment 14989495 pjcas18 said:
Quote:

Is he league average? Do we know?

I don't.

It would be hard to pass up Lawrence, especially if you could trade Jones for assets. Jones has done more good than Rosen, but if you follow that blueprint, the Cardinals drafted Rosen then took Murray with the #1 and got just a 2nd for Rosen.

Would you do that? Draft Lawrence and trade Jones for a 2nd?

Seems compelling if you believe Lawrence is the real deal and Jones is league average.


Right now, we don't know, but if we have the top pick and Jones has been healthy all year, we'll have a much better idea. I'm not in a hurry to jettison Jones, but the OP posted a hypothetical, and if we're 2-14, 3-13 with a healthy Jones, it is fair to question whether he'll even be league average.
Jones Has Not Shown  
lax counsel : 9/29/2020 11:54 am : link
The ability to move the ball against a good, let alone great, defense. Most of his numbers originate from great games against awful teams. Right now, I am seeing his ceiling as a game manager. You don't win with game managers in this league unless the rest of the team is perfect, which is nearly impossible.

You take the top qb and continue to build. Its like some of you think these two things are mutually exclusive.
The other part of the equation (if you want to draft Lawrence  
PatersonPlank : 9/29/2020 11:55 am : link
and are in a position to do so) is what do you get for Jones? I can't see keeping them both, we'd need to move him on and recoup something. This would also ideally be done before the draft or else we would lose a lot of leverage.

If you liked Lawrence a lot, would you take a 2nd or a 3rd for Jones? This would take some of the sting out of starting over at QB again.

I don't know yet, there is a lot of grass to cut before this decision, but I think this has to be part of the discussion too.
RE: I also think  
Section331 : 9/29/2020 11:56 am : link
In comment 14989567 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
a poster above said he can name all the generational QB's that have busted but then didn't want to do that.

Well, I want to see that list. The last one was BOB, kind of. But many were scared of that knee and his attitude so I wouldn't consider that a candidate.

The last one was Luck, before that was Manning. Maybe Cam Newton in between them? What am I missing? Don't mistake the #1 pick for a can't miss prospect, no one thought Jameis Winston was "generational."


I don't think RGIII was ever considered a generational talent leading up to the draft. Many were surprised he went so high. Into his rookie year, yes, many thought he could be a revolutionary talent, but not going into the draft.

And to the comments that Peyton only won 1 SB with Indy, he was saddled with some pretty shitty HC's, AND shared a conference with the best HC/QB tandem in NFL history.
RE: RE: After one season  
Greg from LI : 9/29/2020 11:59 am : link
In comment 14989768 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
But Jones, because of Cutcliffe's coaching, was supposedly much further along. Now, Jones seems to have regressed from year one...


This is a good point and one I made myself last year. Jones received much higher quality QB coaching from Cutcliffe than most college QBs do, and I said that I wouldn't be surprised if Jones got a faster start than expected because of his advanced fundamentals putting him further along in development than the typical first round QB. The corollary, though, was that I wasn't sure how much improvement we were likely to see after that, because the improvement expected of most young QBs largely rested on learning the things Jones already knows.
RE: The other part of the equation (if you want to draft Lawrence  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 12:00 pm : link
In comment 14989793 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
and are in a position to do so) is what do you get for Jones? I can't see keeping them both, we'd need to move him on and recoup something. This would also ideally be done before the draft or else we would lose a lot of leverage.

If you liked Lawrence a lot, would you take a 2nd or a 3rd for Jones? This would take some of the sting out of starting over at QB again.

I don't know yet, there is a lot of grass to cut before this decision, but I think this has to be part of the discussion too.


I've made a couple posts on it but I think you easily get a 2nd for him unless his play falls off a cliff. He can 100% start int he NFL, we all know that - so a lot would have to change between now and then.

What would we accept for him? At this point you are committing to Lawrence so you kind of have to take what you can get. But yeah we can just keep him if we don't like the offer and trade him when the opportunity presents itself.
RE: The other part of the equation (if you want to draft Lawrence  
The_Boss : 9/29/2020 12:01 pm : link
In comment 14989793 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
and are in a position to do so) is what do you get for Jones? I can't see keeping them both, we'd need to move him on and recoup something. This would also ideally be done before the draft or else we would lose a lot of leverage.

If you liked Lawrence a lot, would you take a 2nd or a 3rd for Jones? This would take some of the sting out of starting over at QB again.

I don't know yet, there is a lot of grass to cut before this decision, but I think this has to be part of the discussion too.


Sign me up for anything in the 2nd-4th round as compensation if we get #1 and intend on getting Lawrence.
If this team finishes 2-14 or 3-13, the odds will be good  
BlueLou'sBack : 9/29/2020 12:02 pm : link
that Jones really isn't THE GUY. And more than judging him on the record, I want to see him do little things well. Decision making, recognizing defenses and changing plays at the LOS, having a better feel for the pass rush and knowing when to take off, extending plays, making a fffing perfect pitch to an RB or WR on a reverse!

We know his arm talent isn't on the same tier as Lawrence's, and he's prolly not as good a runner, either.
to be fair  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 12:03 pm : link
Jones did alteast have Barkley for most of his games last year. Even a banged up Barkley is better than this.

We were also blown out a lot last year so he faced some softer defenses. In these closer games not being able to run has been miserable and its forced him to continue to win games on his own.

Not sure he's regressed, he's played some good defenses and 2 really close games - all 3 with zero running game. And I mean 0.
RE: RE: ....  
japanhead : 9/29/2020 12:10 pm : link
In comment 14989555 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14989534 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


I’m somewhat amazed and disappointed in posters who are ready to move on from Daniel Jones. He’s played 15 games on a shit team. Hell, he’s one of the only reasons we’ve actually won some games last season. I have a feeling these posters will be singing a different tune 2 months from now.



I don't disagree ryan. Lots of snap judgments here though because of the poor start of course by NYG and Jones.


jones led the league in fumbles last year in an injury shortened season, and would have had the all-time single season fumble record if not for said injury.

this year he's looked average at best, on a terrible team with a terrible offense that is allergic to scoring, as has been the case for the last four years.

this "jones is better than eli at this point in their careers", or "how can you move on from jones, qb isn't the problem" takes are missing the forest for the trees, instead focusing on a leaf here or there.

gettleman should be run out of town for drafting a qb and an rb with no OL, while botching a half-assed OL rebuild three years running, and surrounding his QB with no skill position players, sure.

but the posters high on jones - what are you looking at? i see nothing except a guy who's regressed from an average rookie year, who holds onto the ball forever, and turns it over at inopportune times with careless decisions. maybe he improves down the stretch and the game "slows down" for him or whatever, but i'm not holding my breath.

gettleman's gotten enough wrong with the rebuild that he should get zero benefit of the doubt on drafting jones.
RE: RE: RE: I think this will resolve itself  
Thegratefulhead : 9/29/2020 12:14 pm : link
In comment 14989777 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14989750 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 14989552 ron mexico said:


Quote:


Jones has 13 games to play better and move us out of draft position to get TL

All he has to do is win 4-5 games in an awful division



FIFY

The converse is also true. If they can't win 4-5 games this season, then Jones has shown enough to move on without thinking twice.



Yup, my thoughts exactly
This...We don't even have to discuss. If we are at the podium to draft Lawrence it means Jones had an abysmal season. Draft Lawrence. Want to be the starting QB for the NYG for a decade? Win some fucking games.
I'd be inclined to trade for picks  
islander1 : 9/29/2020 12:15 pm : link
not because Lawrence isn't potentially better, but that drafting him won't fix us right now.
Japanhead  
LBH15 : 9/29/2020 12:28 pm : link
I don't disagree with a lot of what you said.

Relative to DJ though I mentioned above (and many here have said as well), QB development is not linear. Nobody likes being patient but there is no way 15 games tells me enough to suggest just "move on".

DJ needs to improve his game speed and ball protection and a few other things, but we are not a QB away from just winning.

Lets see when we get to December if QB has to go on the wish list.
RE: I'd be inclined to trade for picks  
The_Boss : 9/29/2020 12:29 pm : link
In comment 14989822 islander1 said:
Quote:
not because Lawrence isn't potentially better, but that drafting him won't fix us right now.


Lawrence or no Lawrence, the current state of this roster dictates that the franchise is at least 2-3 years from even being respectable.
I don't by the argument  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 12:34 pm : link
that a great QB can't make the team better now. We've seen it happen before. If you think Lawrence is that much of a difference than its a no brainer.

We can't operate that way anyway, if we are to get the #1 pick we need to make a decision that effects the next decade +, potentially. And that's also what Judge has been saying, that this is all a process and building a program takes some time.
RE: Jones Has Not Shown  
ryanmkeane : 9/29/2020 12:43 pm : link
In comment 14989790 lax counsel said:
Quote:
The ability to move the ball against a good, let alone great, defense. Most of his numbers originate from great games against awful teams. Right now, I am seeing his ceiling as a game manager. You don't win with game managers in this league unless the rest of the team is perfect, which is nearly impossible.

You take the top qb and continue to build. Its like some of you think these two things are mutually exclusive.

He led them on the best Giants drive we’ve seen in decade against the Steelers, just 2 weeks ago. What are you talking about?
19 play drives that end with turnovers aren't a good thing  
Go Terps : 9/29/2020 12:48 pm : link
19 play drives when you're trailing by two scores probably aren't a good thing either.
I think that for us Lawrence's highest value  
Bill L : 9/29/2020 12:52 pm : link
is the number of top-flight players he would bring to us in the multiple positions of need.
I like Jones but when you have a chance to draft someone like Lawrence  
cosmicj : 9/29/2020 12:59 pm : link
You adjust your plans and make the pick.

If the Giants have the second pick, and have the chance at a highly rated but not once-in-a-decade player, like Fields, the thought process is very different and retaining Jones should absolutely on the table.
RE: I like Jones but when you have a chance to draft someone like Lawrence  
bw in dc : 9/29/2020 1:16 pm : link
In comment 14989905 cosmicj said:
Quote:
You adjust your plans and make the pick.

If the Giants have the second pick, and have the chance at a highly rated but not once-in-a-decade player, like Fields, the thought process is very different and retaining Jones should absolutely on the table.


That's a very interesting point. I'm not a Fields guy but he may have more upside than Jones, too. He has some first round talent marks.

The other guy is Trey Lance. By the time the dust settles, he may be the #2 QB behind Lawrence...
Fields should  
phil in arizona : 9/29/2020 1:19 pm : link
be in consideration too.
RE: RE: Jones Has Not Shown  
lax counsel : 9/29/2020 1:44 pm : link
In comment 14989871 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 14989790 lax counsel said:


Quote:


The ability to move the ball against a good, let alone great, defense. Most of his numbers originate from great games against awful teams. Right now, I am seeing his ceiling as a game manager. You don't win with game managers in this league unless the rest of the team is perfect, which is nearly impossible.

You take the top qb and continue to build. Its like some of you think these two things are mutually exclusive.


He led them on the best Giants drive we’ve seen in decade against the Steelers, just 2 weeks ago. What are you talking about?


One drive???? One Drive?????? That's your defense? Listen, I was as big a Jones supporter as there is. Outside of the one drive, how consistently has he moved the ball against even solid defenses? I cannot think of many examples
RE: I think that for us Lawrence's highest value  
BlueLou'sBack : 9/29/2020 1:51 pm : link
In comment 14989884 Bill L said:
Quote:
is the number of top-flight players he would bring to us in the multiple positions of need.


NOTHING is more important than a top flight QB, one who'll be a top 5 NFL QB over most of the next 15 years.

Not any combination of other good or very good players.
Take a look at a guy like Alex Smith  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 2:06 pm : link
had a limited skillset coming out of Utah, 1 big year of production got him at the #1 overall pick. It took him 5 full years (6 if you count injury) for the 49ers to hit on enough picks to make them contenders.

I am not comparing him to Jones, but that's what we could be looking at in terms of timeline, if at all. 5-6 years to hit on enough picks to finally get into contention.

Looking at most Superbowl matchups they feature teams with elite QB play or elite defenses for the most part. Trying to build an elite defense is something that's pretty unpredictable and never seems sustainable. But having a top QB is a sure fire way to get better quickly. If you have the opportunity to draft a guy who fits that description I think its insane not to do it.
RE: Take a look at a guy like Alex Smith  
bw in dc : 9/29/2020 3:45 pm : link
In comment 14990019 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
had a limited skillset coming out of Utah, 1 big year of production got him at the #1 overall pick. It took him 5 full years (6 if you count injury) for the 49ers to hit on enough picks to make them contenders.


I actually think there are a lot of similarities with Smith and Jones. This was my comp last night. Similar size, similar athleticism, and similar throwing skills. And both seem much better inside the hashes with throws than outside.

I do think, however, Jones throws a better long ball right now...

I didn't see it, great minds....  
UConn4523 : 9/29/2020 4:03 pm : link
haha.

but if you look at it, here's what happened post Smith.

2006 - Vernon Davis 6th overall
2007 - Willis and Stayley at 11 and 28
2008 - Balmer at 29
2009 - Crabtree at 10
2010 - Anthony Davis at 11, Iupati at 17
2011 - Aldon Smith at 11, finally get to playoffs

This is a very realistic look at what any team that doesn't have a top tier QB will experience. Even with a good amount of 1st round hits it took a really long time to break .500 (2011).
RE: I didn't see it, great minds....  
bw in dc : 9/29/2020 4:12 pm : link
In comment 14990131 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
haha.

but if you look at it, here's what happened post Smith.

2006 - Vernon Davis 6th overall
2007 - Willis and Stayley at 11 and 28
2008 - Balmer at 29
2009 - Crabtree at 10
2010 - Anthony Davis at 11, Iupati at 17
2011 - Aldon Smith at 11, finally get to playoffs

This is a very realistic look at what any team that doesn't have a top tier QB will experience. Even with a good amount of 1st round hits it took a really long time to break .500 (2011).


And then they added Harbaugh, and a very good staff around him, to really bolster the team. They did some very good work rejuvenating Smith's career.
RE: I don't by the argument  
adamg : 9/29/2020 4:15 pm : link
In comment 14989851 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
that a great QB can't make the team better now. We've seen it happen before. If you think Lawrence is that much of a difference than its a no brainer.

We can't operate that way anyway, if we are to get the #1 pick we need to make a decision that effects the next decade +, potentially. And that's also what Judge has been saying, that this is all a process and building a program takes some time.


This x1000.

Lynch turned the 49ers around over night. Gettleman is the problem. He's had three shots at fixing Reese's and his own mistakes and he's failed each time.

I actually think the coaching staff might be worth keeping. But all the personnel guys have to go. They've failed too many years in a row.
Daniel Jones has been ok  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 9/29/2020 4:37 pm : link
We'll see how he finishes the season.

Big Play to Turnover ratio. Right now, Jones is doing really poor in that metric. But I saw some flashes of Jones making some tremendous throws especially involving touch last year, so I'm not ready to just count him out. He made enough of those really nice throws last year for me to think he had the potential to be a really good QB, but I also saw a lot of flaws so it's not like I expected him to reach that level this year.

At this rate, if Jones plays like this the organization would be idiots to pass on Lawrence. But let's see how Jones progresses, and particularly in that Big Play/Elite Pass to Turnover ratio aspect that I mentioned.

But if this team has the opportunity to select Lawrence, it probably means that Jones didn't get much better over the course of the season so the question kind of answers itself. We'll see.
I don't follow CFB much  
santacruzom : 9/29/2020 4:49 pm : link
and seldom see Clemson play. Is Lawrence likely to be a similar overall talent to Mahomes? Does he have that level of arm strength and improvisation ability?
RE: If we earn the first pick  
eric2425ny : 9/29/2020 4:54 pm : link
In comment 14989279 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
Then you fire everyone and hire a new GM and coach. Take Trevor Lawrence and don’t look back. Lawrence is probably the best QB prospect of all time.


Totally agree. I almost feel like Jones has regressed this year. Not that he has much to throw to with the likes of Engram, Tate, and whoever the latest street free agent it is playing as our third WR. The only remotely legit option he has to throw to is Slayton, it’s pathetic.
RE: I don't follow CFB much  
Go Terps : 9/29/2020 5:04 pm : link
In comment 14990177 santacruzom said:
Quote:
and seldom see Clemson play. Is Lawrence likely to be a similar overall talent to Mahomes? Does he have that level of arm strength and improvisation ability?


I don't know about improvisation; Mahomes is really unusual in that area.

My impression of Lawrence is that he is just really clean. His throwing motion is tight and the ball really flies out of his hand. It just looks like its on a rail to the target.

No one is can't miss, but he approaches that standard as much as anyone else has.
Steve Young on the Michael Kay Show  
bceagle05 : 9/29/2020 5:18 pm : link
just said he’d 100% take Trevor Lawrence to replace Jones or Darnold. Paraphrasing, he said the QB position is easier to play and there is a “lot of open space out there” - gotta prove it immediately.
Mahomes is unique in style. Lawrence isn't Mahomes.  
Greg from LI : 9/30/2020 12:03 am : link
But he just doesn't really have any weaknesses. He has the height. He has the arm. He has touch in short to medium throws. He is athletic and mobile. He's got very good awareness in the pocket and is great at sliding to buy time and make a play, similar to Eli at his best. He goes through his progressions quickly and reads coverages well. The closest thing to a weakness is deep pass accuracy, but it's not as if he's inaccurate. It's just not the strongest facet of his game.

On top of it all, his teammates adore the guy.
RE: Mahomes is unique in style. Lawrence isn't Mahomes.  
crick n NC : 9/30/2020 9:59 am : link
In comment 14990608 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But he just doesn't really have any weaknesses. He has the height. He has the arm. He has touch in short to medium throws. He is athletic and mobile. He's got very good awareness in the pocket and is great at sliding to buy time and make a play, similar to Eli at his best. He goes through his progressions quickly and reads coverages well. The closest thing to a weakness is deep pass accuracy, but it's not as if he's inaccurate. It's just not the strongest facet of his game.

On top of it all, his teammates adore the guy.


No Apparent weaknesses at the college level anyway.
Giants will never be  
Harvest Blend : 9/30/2020 10:00 am : link
fortunate enough to get the #1 pick and even if they do they'll screw it up.

Anyway, in order to keep some interest in this season after this week the worst draft position they can have is #4.

Jets/Den, Min/Hou, Atl. Comes down to strength of schedule or lack thereof in the end.
RE: RE: I don't follow CFB much  
crick n NC : 9/30/2020 10:15 am : link
In comment 14990195 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14990177 santacruzom said:


Quote:


and seldom see Clemson play. Is Lawrence likely to be a similar overall talent to Mahomes? Does he have that level of arm strength and improvisation ability?



I don't know about improvisation; Mahomes is really unusual in that area.

My impression of Lawrence is that he is just really clean. His throwing motion is tight and the ball really flies out of his hand. It just looks like its on a rail to the target.

No one is can't miss, but he approaches that standard as much as anyone else has.


Yep
RE: What if the Jets offer you  
djm : 9/30/2020 10:29 am : link
In comment 14989451 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
Their 1st, seahawks 1st, their 2nd and their 2 1sts next year?


If you love Lawrence and don't LOVE Jones, you pick Lawrence and call it a fday. What? You want to trade Dan Marino for Dexter Lawrence, Baker, McKinney, Shepard and Herandez? No you don't.

It's simple but knowing the Giants they over think it. If you merely like Jones after this season, bye bye Jones, assuming you love Lawrence, and everyone loves him so it's a safe assumption.
ill remind everyone  
djm : 9/30/2020 10:31 am : link
that people couldn't stop laughing at the cardinals for how they handled the ROsen/ Kyler Murray thing. Who is laughing now. Since I get crushed for my DG takes lately I will point out that I applauded this move. And the Cards are now sitting pretty.
Knowing the Giants  
Jim in Forest Hills : 9/30/2020 10:32 am : link
they will pick #3, Lawrence will be gone. With Fields and Lance up for grabs they select Kenny Pickett from Pitt.
lastly  
djm : 9/30/2020 10:36 am : link
we should all keep beating this into our heads until it sinks in and hopefully the Giants do too. Remember Dave Brown. Remember Eli at the end. Remember the losing. Then go watch guys like Russel Wilson or Andrew Luck or some others.

Great QBs don't need excuses, they just win. Decent QBs need things to be OK around them or they lose. bad QBs don't win at all. Either way, if you aint winning, the QB is part of the problem. We all know this by now. Eli may not have been THE problem at the end, but he wasn't the solution either. We need solutions. No more over thinking shit.

That said, The Giants likely find their sea legs at some point this season like just about any team will. They will win games at some point so this is probably all moot.
I would also not be shocked if Lawrence didn't want to play for the  
Jim in Forest Hills : 9/30/2020 10:38 am : link
Giants and threatened a holdout. He is not a come from nowhere guy, he's been the lead dog since HS. Looking at the Giants OL, uncertainty at GM, HC, lack of weapons, no defense, I could see him asking for a trade out if the Giants have the #1 pick.
If we get the #1 pick, it will be Lawrence  
UConn4523 : 9/30/2020 11:00 am : link
I think the bigger question is if we get the 2nd or 3rd pick, do you trade up for Lawrence?

I don't see a trade with the Jets happening ever so I doubt this happens, it would need to be someone else and even then I don't see that team passing on him except for the Bengals I guess.
RE: RE: What if the Jets offer you  
PatersonPlank : 9/30/2020 11:01 am : link
In comment 14990822 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 14989451 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


Their 1st, seahawks 1st, their 2nd and their 2 1sts next year?



If you love Lawrence and don't LOVE Jones, you pick Lawrence and call it a fday. What? You want to trade Dan Marino for Dexter Lawrence, Baker, McKinney, Shepard and Herandez? No you don't.

It's simple but knowing the Giants they over think it. If you merely like Jones after this season, bye bye Jones, assuming you love Lawrence, and everyone loves him so it's a safe assumption.


I'd make this trade so fast your head would spin. Make them throw in Darnold too, so Jones and Darnold can battle it out. We have a lot of holes
This thread is quickly becoming a jinx on  
LBH15 : 9/30/2020 11:02 am : link
Trevor Lawrence's career.

Super college player but do we really need to keep pressing the (nearly) can't miss stuff?

RE: I would also not be shocked if Lawrence didn't want to play for the  
UConn4523 : 9/30/2020 11:03 am : link
In comment 14990843 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
Giants and threatened a holdout. He is not a come from nowhere guy, he's been the lead dog since HS. Looking at the Giants OL, uncertainty at GM, HC, lack of weapons, no defense, I could see him asking for a trade out if the Giants have the #1 pick.


And go to the Jets? Terrible line and weapons.

He isn't going to refuse to sign - he has a lot to risk on his end. With the slotted CBA money isn't a factor either.

With all the bullshit around Kyler Murray, the wavering between baseball and football, endorsement deals, etc. do you think he really wanted to be in Arizona of all places?
RE: RE: RE: What if the Jets offer you  
djm : 9/30/2020 11:06 am : link
In comment 14990873 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
In comment 14990822 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 14989451 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


Their 1st, seahawks 1st, their 2nd and their 2 1sts next year?



If you love Lawrence and don't LOVE Jones, you pick Lawrence and call it a fday. What? You want to trade Dan Marino for Dexter Lawrence, Baker, McKinney, Shepard and Herandez? No you don't.

It's simple but knowing the Giants they over think it. If you merely like Jones after this season, bye bye Jones, assuming you love Lawrence, and everyone loves him so it's a safe assumption.



I'd make this trade so fast your head would spin. Make them throw in Darnold too, so Jones and Darnold can battle it out. We have a lot of holes


I hear you but I don't any more quantity. I want greatness.
RE: RE: I would also not be shocked if Lawrence didn't want to play for the  
Jim in Forest Hills : 9/30/2020 11:13 am : link
In comment 14990877 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14990843 Jim in Forest Hills said:


Quote:


Giants and threatened a holdout. He is not a come from nowhere guy, he's been the lead dog since HS. Looking at the Giants OL, uncertainty at GM, HC, lack of weapons, no defense, I could see him asking for a trade out if the Giants have the #1 pick.



And go to the Jets? Terrible line and weapons.

He isn't going to refuse to sign - he has a lot to risk on his end. With the slotted CBA money isn't a factor either.

With all the bullshit around Kyler Murray, the wavering between baseball and football, endorsement deals, etc. do you think he really wanted to be in Arizona of all places?


Its a stretch, not saying its likely so lets be clear, just that I wouldn't be shocked. The Giants are a mess with no clear path. For a kid like Lawrence who I think is in a different strata then Murray or Burrow, would he (and his agent) want to try and force his way? Don't know, we saw Eli do it because SD was so bad.
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