Let's say we land the top pick. And we have Trevor Lawrence sitting pretty. Is it a slam dunk that we should move on from Jones? Or are we so devastated across the board that we should trade down for tons of picks?
I'm just curious where BBI sits on Jones. IMHO you have to take Sunshine. But if you think Jones has the potential to be a great, don't you have to consider the trade value of TL?
If the Giants have the first pick and pass on Lawrence we should all abandon ship.
If the Giants have the first pick and pass on Lawrence we should all abandon ship.
Ship has already sunk.
3rd down must get fixed.
I hope OL figures it out.....
Thing is, that likely means the team is not picking one anyway.
What a mess, I so badly want to see a win this Sunday, but we all know they are likely to get obliterated.
Would you move Sewell inside to OG or OC?
I am not sure the Giant aren't pretty well set at OT with Thomas and Peart, and I doubt either of them would make a good interior OL.
Are you kidding me? Lol. Lawrence is a generational type QB, what even is Fields ceiling?
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the talent level isn't really close.
Are you kidding me? Lol. Lawrence is a generational type QB, what even is Fields ceiling?
He said Fields over JONES not Lawrence
The real question is if you have a chance to take Fields, do you make the same move.
So if we have the first pick you are taking Fields?
I’m not a Fields guy, would rank him third in this class right now behind Lawrence and Lance, but you aren’t alone in this thinking. There are people who do like Fields over Lawrence. Herbstreit, I think, falls into that camp....
The bigger question is, what do the Giants do if Jones shows the occasional flash but still flatlines in his progression and they’re picking 4th or 5th and the 2nd best QB is on the board? That’s a trickier question - I’d lean towards riding it out with Jones unless that guy is the clear cut best player on the board but it will depend on a bunch of different factors.
The bigger question is, what do the Giants do if Jones shows the occasional flash but still flatlines in his progression and they’re picking 4th or 5th and the 2nd best QB is on the board? That’s a trickier question - I’d lean towards riding it out with Jones unless that guy is the clear cut best player on the board but it will depend on a bunch of different factors.
Most teams will give a 1st round pick qb 4 years and thrn cut bait..
I’m still optimistic on Jones for the record, he’s still got 13 games before we’re seriously having this discussion. However the scenarios suggested by the OP would imply that Jones was pretty bad or at the very best, stalled in his progression this year.
What happens when you draft Lawrence and he busts?
With that being said its week 3. We have a new coach, a lot of young players and a tough opening schedule. The first half of this season was always going to be much tougher than the second half.
What happens when you draft Lawrence and he busts?
Same as now?
We can still get a decent return on Jones IMO - a 3rd at the very least likely more considering what he's shown vs a guy like Rosen who's garbage. I even think Darnold will net a 3rd, minimum if the Jets were to draft Lawrence.
So in this scenario it would be Lawrence and an extra 2 - you wouldn't sign up for that?
What happens when you draft Lawrence and he busts?
You make a good point. He plays with great talent in a poor conference. I think more needs to be learned about Lawrence. The question the Giants have to answer is when the team is good enough around him can lead them to a championship.
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coming out of college? How many times do these generational qbs bust? The colts had 2 and won 1 superbowl..
What happens when you draft Lawrence and he busts?
Same as now?
We can still get a decent return on Jones IMO - a 3rd at the very least likely more considering what he's shown vs a guy like Rosen who's garbage. I even think Darnold will net a 3rd, minimum if the Jets were to draft Lawrence.
So in this scenario it would be Lawrence and an extra 2 - you wouldn't sign up for that?
I would rather have Jones and a bunch of picks, but i also still believe you can win with Jones..
People go gaga over these generational qbs they will give up a ton to get him..
I would ratger build a great team around jones than have Lawrence.
It has only been a few games in 2020, but a few trends are already showing including:
- The Offense needs playmakers at WR, TE & probably RB.
- The Offensive Line still needs better players (although some may exist on the bench as rookies...TBD).
- Daniel Jones has not shown well in 2020 but QB development is not linear so got to give him the full season to tell the story.
- Nobody at Edge Rusher or OLB is worth a damn.
- Secondary still needs another reliable CB.
Now that is a long laundry list, but if you parlay a #1 overall pick into a blue chip and a few red chips in 2021 draft and probably some more red chips in 2022 draft, then you really can fast-forward with a new core group. Besides, if the laundry list is this long, do you really want to just throw Lawrence behind a crappy Offense and no Defense?
Will have to assess Lawrence (and Jones) more as the season goes on. I also don't recall Lawrence being a slam dunk last year when I watched him a few times. Thought he struggled a bit but the overall talent level of Clemson made up for it.
I could subscribe to Lawrence but you have to assess all options first. This team cannot have another "road not taken" error in judgment as to how to rebuild a team.
There's almost no risk drafting Lawrence and far less risk than passing on him and hoping all the picks we get back in a trade work out and make us contenders more quickly.
Lawrence is the better prospect and resets the clock.
There's almost no risk drafting Lawrence and far less risk than passing on him and hoping all the picks we get back in a trade work out and make us contenders more quickly.
That is my point, Lawrence can live up to the hype and you win nothing with him..
I would rather build a great team around Jones with the picks you can get than draft Lawrence..
Lawrence is the better prospect and resets the clock.
That is why you trade the pick get a bunch of picks, plus cap space to make the tram great around him..
What i meant was trams that need a qb will trade a premium for the qb they love, especially the generational ones..
Today, the Giants have a ton of holes, and many people don't count QB among them.
If the Giants get a top pick next year and draft Lawrence, they still have a ton of holes and they didn't use their top pick to fill one of the holes.
They may upgrade QB, but are they better with Lawrence and the same team (plus 2021 other picks they make/FA additions) or are they better with Jones and more premium picks including their 1st that fill gaping holes (edge, OL, etc.)
The trade or draft question really comes in if you have the 2nd or 3rd pick. Do you take a guy like OSU's Justin Fields, or trade the pick? Then you're making the evaluation of who you think would be better - Fields or Jones? Even if you think Fields will be slightly better, the difference may not be enough to bypass multiple picks.
and how many picks you think you are getting for jones?
Point being Lawrence will be in the 90's, which puts him in rare company. There will be very few knocks on him and 0 teams that wouldn't draft him. We haven't seen that since 2011.
Today, the Giants have a ton of holes, and many people don't count QB among them.
If the Giants get a top pick next year and draft Lawrence, they still have a ton of holes and they didn't use their top pick to fill one of the holes.
They may upgrade QB, but are they better with Lawrence and the same team (plus 2021 other picks they make/FA additions) or are they better with Jones and more premium picks including their 1st that fill gaping holes (edge, OL, etc.)
But you are still stuck with an at best league average QB, when that is the position that is hardest to upgrade. You don't know when a guy like Lawrence is going to become available again. I think you have to take a generational player at the most important position on the field.
Point being Lawrence will be in the 90's, which puts him in rare company. There will be very few knocks on him and 0 teams that wouldn't draft him. We haven't seen that since 2011.
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and the pick(s) you can get for Jones.
and how many picks you think you are getting for jones?
Well I don't know. That's why I said pick(s). Could be one 2nd, could be two 3rd's.
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with Lawrence.
Today, the Giants have a ton of holes, and many people don't count QB among them.
If the Giants get a top pick next year and draft Lawrence, they still have a ton of holes and they didn't use their top pick to fill one of the holes.
They may upgrade QB, but are they better with Lawrence and the same team (plus 2021 other picks they make/FA additions) or are they better with Jones and more premium picks including their 1st that fill gaping holes (edge, OL, etc.)
But you are still stuck with an at best league average QB, when that is the position that is hardest to upgrade. You don't know when a guy like Lawrence is going to become available again. I think you have to take a generational player at the most important position on the field.
Is he league average? Do we know?
I don't.
It would be hard to pass up Lawrence, especially if you could trade Jones for assets. Jones has done more good than Rosen, but if you follow that blueprint, the Cardinals drafted Rosen then took Murray with the #1 and got just a 2nd for Rosen.
Would you do that? Draft Lawrence and trade Jones for a 2nd?
Seems compelling if you believe Lawrence is the real deal and Jones is league average.
Today, the Giants have a ton of holes, and many people don't count QB among them.
If the Giants get a top pick next year and draft Lawrence, they still have a ton of holes and they didn't use their top pick to fill one of the holes.
They may upgrade QB, but are they better with Lawrence and the same team (plus 2021 other picks they make/FA additions) or are they better with Jones and more premium picks including their 1st that fill gaping holes (edge, OL, etc.)
If Lawrence is even close to the level prospect that the consensus seems to project him at, and the eyeball test checks out for sure, then 2021 is completely meaningless in the context of what he could do for a franchise. Again, picking first overall would certainly make QB a question mark as well. You don’t pick in that slot without bad QB play.
Yep
You guys are absolutely blind when it comes to QB development. It’s really starting to get annoying. Daniel Jones has played 15 NFL games. He broke rookie records last year. He’s playing in a completely new system, new OL, new coach, with almost no practices to boot. Hell its basically preseason still.
Just be fucking patient with Daniel Jones, the results are going to come. If you can’t wait more than 15 games for a young QB to develop on a bad team, then you don’t understand how the position works and you need to start rooting for another team.
We aren’t drafting Trevor Lawrence. You guys are starting to sound like Matt Lombardo. Shut the fuck up about it already.
He would have been the first pick in the draft after his freshman year at Clemson. After his sophomore year. And after this year, he'll finally taste that champagne...
He obviously has some rough edges to this game, but the sky is the limit. You really have to take him and auction off the inferior player in Jones...
it's a good discussion.
If Mahomes or Lamar or Rodgers were Giants QB, do you think their record is not 0 - 3, was it better than 4 - 12 last year?
And consider them (Mahomes, Lamar, and Rodgers - as rookies last year with the Giants - not as veterans). Also consider Mahomes and Rodgers didn't play as rookies - one mediocre game for Mahomes and Rodgers sat the bench for 3 years, and Lamar played, but didn't pass much)
I'm not convinced replacing Jones changes much on the exact same team.
Then Murray comes along...
I personally don't think this is close. You take the clear cut better prospect and a solid pick back from trading Jones and away you go.
Not me. I think we can win with Jones but far more needs to go right for that to happen. We get a ton of wiggle room with the likely better QB in Lawrence..
Maybe the right GM will.
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is that we're just chasing our tails again. The Giants don't trade down, they just don't, be it 1st pick though 32nd.
Maybe the right GM will.
Maybe being the key word. Show me then I'll believe it. The evidence is pretty overwhelming that they won't.
I never said Jones couldn't be the answer. Please re-read the above.
He would have been the first pick in the draft after his freshman year at Clemson. After his sophomore year. And after this year, he'll finally taste that champagne...
He obviously has some rough edges to this game, but the sky is the limit. You really have to take him and auction off the inferior player in Jones...
Pretty strong post here. You are basically describing the NFL version of Lebron James. Are you really that certain?
This we get an a CENTER, WRs, edge rusher and CB out of the deal .... Jones is ok ....
I feel like if the scouts like Lawrence physically and mentally he'd be hard to pass up, but it doesn't mean he'd even be an improvement over Jones.
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In comment 14989475 Harvest Blend said:
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is that we're just chasing our tails again. The Giants don't trade down, they just don't, be it 1st pick though 32nd.
Maybe the right GM will.
Maybe being the key word. Show me then I'll believe it. The evidence is pretty overwhelming that they won't.
You want me to show you a GM that I don't know, who isn't hired yet, trade away a #1 pick we don't have yet?
I think ridiculous is the key word.
Of course, KC's receivers would make any QB with a pulse look good.
Generations on BBI last about a year or so.
All he has to do is win 4-5 games
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In comment 14989518 LBH15 said:
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In comment 14989475 Harvest Blend said:
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is that we're just chasing our tails again. The Giants don't trade down, they just don't, be it 1st pick though 32nd.
Maybe the right GM will.
Maybe being the key word. Show me then I'll believe it. The evidence is pretty overwhelming that they won't.
You want me to show you a GM that I don't know, who isn't hired yet, trade away a #1 pick we don't have yet?
I think ridiculous is the key word.
Show me one from the Giants. Show me one the last 15 years. Show me one who did it when the decision was slapping him in the face.
I don't disagree ryan. Lots of snap judgments here though because of the poor start of course by NYG and Jones.
I'm not ready to move on from him. There's really only 1 guy that would make me feel that way and it happens to come in this years draft.
It has to be on the table at the bare minimum.
There is nuance to this discussion and we’re also dealing with a projection, a negative one at that since the hypothetical is one that suggests we were the worst team in football this year. Saying we should take a once and a decade QB prospect if we’re picking first overall in that scenario is not giving up on Jones after 15 games.
How do you know Lawrence is a better qb? There is no guarantee he becomes a great qb..
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In comment 14989524 Harvest Blend said:
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In comment 14989518 LBH15 said:
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In comment 14989475 Harvest Blend said:
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is that we're just chasing our tails again. The Giants don't trade down, they just don't, be it 1st pick though 32nd.
Maybe the right GM will.
Maybe being the key word. Show me then I'll believe it. The evidence is pretty overwhelming that they won't.
You want me to show you a GM that I don't know, who isn't hired yet, trade away a #1 pick we don't have yet?
I think ridiculous is the key word.
Show me one from the Giants. Show me one the last 15 years. Show me one who did it when the decision was slapping him in the face.
You got me, I cannot.
Though, I can show you a team that has declined precipitously over most of that time frame and really should have done this before.
Mark Sanchez looked awesome his first 2 years. They had a great team, and it turns out he was a horrible quarterback.
Well, I want to see that list. The last one was BOB, kind of. But many were scared of that knee and his attitude so I wouldn't consider that a candidate.
The last one was Luck, before that was Manning. Maybe Cam Newton in between them? What am I missing? Don't mistake the #1 pick for a can't miss prospect, no one thought Jameis Winston was "generational."
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In comment 14989524 Harvest Blend said:
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In comment 14989518 LBH15 said:
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In comment 14989475 Harvest Blend said:
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is that we're just chasing our tails again. The Giants don't trade down, they just don't, be it 1st pick though 32nd.
Maybe the right GM will.
Maybe being the key word. Show me then I'll believe it. The evidence is pretty overwhelming that they won't.
You want me to show you a GM that I don't know, who isn't hired yet, trade away a #1 pick we don't have yet?
I think ridiculous is the key word.
Show me one from the Giants. Show me one the last 15 years. Show me one who did it when the decision was slapping him in the face.
Giants did it for Kiwanuka, they traded down
Well, I want to see that list. The last one was BOB, kind of. But many were scared of that knee and his attitude so I wouldn't consider that a candidate.
The last one was Luck, before that was Manning. Maybe Cam Newton in between them? What am I missing? Don't mistake the #1 pick for a can't miss prospect, no one thought Jameis Winston was "generational."
If you are referring to me where did i say generational talents bust?
I said there iz no guarantee you are going to win anything even with generational talents...
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I never wanted Daniel Jones in the first place. He's been better than I expected, but not particularly impressive in any way. He's not the main problem, but he doesn't look like a solution either.
How do you know Lawrence is a better qb? There is no guarantee he becomes a great qb..
Read above. Lawrence comes with basically no risk.
Mark Sanchez looked awesome his first 2 years. They had a great team, and it turns out he was a horrible quarterback.
Andrew Luck. 28 TD's as a rookie, led them to the playoffs. High INT's but looked the part immediately.
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If you are referring to me where did i say generational talents bust?
I said there iz no guarantee you are going to win anything even with generational talents...
I just don't trust the draft - every year there are "generational"
PatersonPlank : 9:45 am : link : reply
picks. Who knows if Lawrence will be really good or the next Darnold? I could list all the generational QB's who flopped, but I won't waste everyone's time. Let wait and see what happens with Jones. I don't think its anywhere near as clear cut as some make it.
You should want to move on from him, if the other QB is better - but more importantly gives your team a better chance to win.
If scouts agree Lawrence is the second coming, I think it's a no-brainer, but I do come back to the question of imagine in your mind the best QB possible - whether it's Mahomes or Wilson or Marino or Peyton or Brady or Phil Simms - whoever it is - picture them as rookie - are the Giants better than 4 - 12 (or whatever they were once Jones took over). Are the Giants better than 0 - 3 this year? Is the offense moving?
Well, I want to see that list. The last one was BOB, kind of. But many were scared of that knee and his attitude so I wouldn't consider that a candidate.
The last one was Luck, before that was Manning. Maybe Cam Newton in between them? What am I missing? Don't mistake the #1 pick for a can't miss prospect, no one thought Jameis Winston was "generational."
I don't know, Leaf maybe since there was a lot of debate at the time whether he or Peyton would go #1 overall.
Jeff George had generational arm talent but a terrible attitude.
If Jones plays the whole season he probably winds up with 30 TD and 15-15 picks.
Jones’ completion percentage was almost 7 points higher than Luck’s rookie season. Just what about Andrew Luck was better than Jones in their rookie seasons?
I really don't think this is as unprecedented as people think. The Cardinals gained 2.5 wins in Murray's rookie year taking over a horrid team (just like ours), and is 2-1 so far in year 2. He isn't Wilson/Mahomes but its already working. 1 savvy trade for Hopkins makes them dangerous on offense.
If Jones plays the whole season he probably winds up with 30 TD and 15-15 picks.
Jones’ completion percentage was almost 7 points higher than Luck’s rookie season. Just what about Andrew Luck was better than Jones in their rookie seasons?
He also had 5 rushing TD's which you have to include considering his was able to create time and pick up first downs with his feet (and was really good at the goal line).
Are we going to just forget those 11 wins his rookie year? Stats tell part of the story - Luck was dangerous, took some risks but always seemed to make a big play when they needed it. I've seen that from Jones before, but not as often. Luck constantly had them.
I love Wilson but he's also had a team with a defense that could force a fucking punt once in a while. :)
What happens when Trevor and his receiver build,flips his hair,yells hike,and proceeds to get smashed into tiny little pieces by a 300 pound activist.
What happens when Trevor and his receiver build,flips his hair,yells hike,and proceeds to get smashed into tiny little pieces by a 300 pound activist.
What does the risk getting injured have to do with his talent? Lawrence doesn't have the injury history of a Robert Griffin. If it happens, it would suck and there's nothing you can do about it, same as with Daniel Jones.
I hope you're not a Doctor..."You have a hangnail; may as well end it all now!" Gettleman is one thing, but Judge cannot possibly be judged yet. It's completely unreasonable.
+++ for a voice of reason. Shit doesn't happen in a vacuum; you have to consider the supporting cast which doesn't provide much support.
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if players in high school were eligible to be drafted I have NO doubt Lawrence would have been a top five pick. NO doubt. I saw him play and I would have taken him #1.
He would have been the first pick in the draft after his freshman year at Clemson. After his sophomore year. And after this year, he'll finally taste that champagne...
He obviously has some rough edges to this game, but the sky is the limit. You really have to take him and auction off the inferior player in Jones...
Pretty strong post here. You are basically describing the NFL version of Lebron James. Are you really that certain?
Purely potential. The guy is "five tools" - arm talent, mobility, speed, size, and intellect. And I would say four of those are in the plus-plus category.
But obviously there is no sure thing. It's very difficult to know how someone will ultimately adapt to playing against bigger, stronger, faster.
For me, I thought Elway and Luck were can't miss prospects at QB. I would put Lawrence right into that class.
That's why I brought up Generational Talent,I'm not a big believer in any of that.
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What does the risk getting injured have to do with his talent? Lawrence doesn't have the injury history of a Robert Griffin. If it happens, it would suck and there's nothing you can do about it, same as with Daniel Jones.
That's why I brought up Generational Talent,I'm not a big believer in any of that.
I'm very confused. So because you can get injured it means that your talent level doesn't matter?
I genuinely have no idea what this debate is over. Lawrence is a far better prospect than Jones. Both can get injured. What am I missing?
I'm telling you I don't think he's nearly as good as what people are saying.Can't get much clearer than that
BTW, you know that has happened to him in college too, right?
CW: Had the best OL in the league his first two years. It was so good Foles came it and finished the job. How is Wentz looking now?
RW: Seattle was built around Marshawn and the running game is first three years. Best defense in the league.
BR: TOP OL and running game his first two years. Had a true number one receiver.
EM: We know what he had.
TB: Best coach ever. NE his first few years was a top 3 D. Excellent running game.
PM: Took over a playoff teams. Weapons and speed all over the field. Best TE in the game. Best offensive mind the last twenty years who always fielded a functional OL.
Can someone tell me a elite or franchise QB who did not have very significant help and had success early on?
I don't know how things will end for Jones. I just don't see anywhere on the offense and say wow this guy can really help him. He really has been dealt a bad hand.
I'm telling you I don't think he's nearly as good as what people are saying.Can't get much clearer than that
Well you didn't, you kept citing injuries.
You didn't once say you didn't think he was that good until just before. Prior to that you kept talking about injuries. How else am I supposed to interpret it?
If you don't think Lawrence is as good as everyone else, fine. You are entitled to that. But that isn't what you said previously.
All he has to do is win 4-5 games in an awful division
FIFY
The converse is also true. If they can't win 4-5 games this season, then Jones has shown enough to move on without thinking twice.
Your reading comprehension is extremely poor. I JUST said that if you don't think he's as good as everyone else, fine, you are entitled to that. I'm not even arguing with you on it.
You kept citing injuries, this entire response from me has been based on that. If you don't realize that by now that's on you, no longer responding to you.
I feel like if the scouts like Lawrence physically and mentally he'd be hard to pass up, but it doesn't mean he'd even be an improvement over Jones.
Allen's play has indeed taken a big jump. Do you think Jones has similar tools to Allen, so that when he "gets it" he will have a similar jump? Because the toolbox counts, it's the basis. Allen's was overloaded coming out, everyone knew that.
But Jones, because of Cutcliffe's coaching, was supposedly much further along. Now, Jones seems to have regressed from year one...
Maybe we overrated DJ last year because Shurmur's system is so easy on QBs?
1) How much better do we think Lawrence will be than Jones (given the facts that Jones has 13 games to go and Lawrence's play is pure projection at this point).
2) Is the "delta" (if any) better than trading out and still getting the top player at another position and a few more picks (lets see a "generational" player at another position to keep in theme here).
Projecting if QB's will make it is hard and an inexact science. Trubisky, Darnold, Rosen, (and Jackson on the severely underrated side) are recent examples.
I don't think the question is solely if Lawrence projects to be better than Jones, its how to build a team.
Jeff Saturday wasn't the center in Manning's first few seasons. Marvin Harrison never would have come close to a HOF career if he hadn't played with Manning - he had played three seasons prior to 1998 and done nothing of note. What TE - Dallas Clark? Not on the team in those days. Ken Dilger and Marcus Pollard were the TEs then.
1998 Colts offensive starters (3-13):
QB - Peyton
RB- Faulk
WR - Harrison
WR - Jerome Pathon
TE - Ken Dilger
TE - Marcus Pollard
LT - Tarik Glenn
LG - Steve McKinney
C - Jay Leeuwenberg
RG - Tony Mandarich
RT - Adam Meadows
1999 Colts starters (13-3)
QB - Manning
RB - James
WR - Harrison
WR - Terrence Wilkins
TE - Dilger
TE - Pollard
LT - Glenn
LG - McKinney
C - Larry Moore
RG - Waverly Jackson
RT - Meadows
Hardly some big leap forward in talent from year one to year two. James, yeah, but you could easily argue that he was a bit of a step down from Marshall Faulk. The OL at that point wasn't great - anyone remember Larry Moore or Waverly Jackson? Much as I love Terrence Wilkins as a UVA guy, he was mostly a kick returner in the NFL. Dilger and Pollard were nothing special.
The big difference from 1998 to 1999 for the Colts was a great QB growing into his job.
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Jones has 13 games to play better and move us out of draft position to get TL
All he has to do is win 4-5 games in an awful division
FIFY
The converse is also true. If they can't win 4-5 games this season, then Jones has shown enough to move on without thinking twice.
Yup, my thoughts exactly
Certain QB's are simply going to elevate bad-mediocre teams. If that's what you think Lawrence will do then he's the pick because it allows you more flexibility long term - you can absorb more misses. If you don't, then trade back back and keep Jones and hope that you can start nailing picks at a higher rate.
That's how I see it atleast.
1) How much better do we think Lawrence will be than Jones (given the facts that Jones has 13 games to go and Lawrence's play is pure projection at this point).
2) Is the "delta" (if any) better than trading out and still getting the top player at another position and a few more picks (lets see a "generational" player at another position to keep in theme here).
Projecting if QB's will make it is hard and an inexact science. Trubisky, Darnold, Rosen, (and Jackson on the severely underrated side) are recent examples.
I don't think the question is solely if Lawrence projects to be better than Jones, its how to build a team.
Had roughly same thoughts above. Evaluate everything, and pick optimum path for the team not a position.
Is he league average? Do we know?
I don't.
It would be hard to pass up Lawrence, especially if you could trade Jones for assets. Jones has done more good than Rosen, but if you follow that blueprint, the Cardinals drafted Rosen then took Murray with the #1 and got just a 2nd for Rosen.
Would you do that? Draft Lawrence and trade Jones for a 2nd?
Seems compelling if you believe Lawrence is the real deal and Jones is league average.
Right now, we don't know, but if we have the top pick and Jones has been healthy all year, we'll have a much better idea. I'm not in a hurry to jettison Jones, but the OP posted a hypothetical, and if we're 2-14, 3-13 with a healthy Jones, it is fair to question whether he'll even be league average.
You take the top qb and continue to build. Its like some of you think these two things are mutually exclusive.
If you liked Lawrence a lot, would you take a 2nd or a 3rd for Jones? This would take some of the sting out of starting over at QB again.
I don't know yet, there is a lot of grass to cut before this decision, but I think this has to be part of the discussion too.
Well, I want to see that list. The last one was BOB, kind of. But many were scared of that knee and his attitude so I wouldn't consider that a candidate.
The last one was Luck, before that was Manning. Maybe Cam Newton in between them? What am I missing? Don't mistake the #1 pick for a can't miss prospect, no one thought Jameis Winston was "generational."
I don't think RGIII was ever considered a generational talent leading up to the draft. Many were surprised he went so high. Into his rookie year, yes, many thought he could be a revolutionary talent, but not going into the draft.
And to the comments that Peyton only won 1 SB with Indy, he was saddled with some pretty shitty HC's, AND shared a conference with the best HC/QB tandem in NFL history.
This is a good point and one I made myself last year. Jones received much higher quality QB coaching from Cutcliffe than most college QBs do, and I said that I wouldn't be surprised if Jones got a faster start than expected because of his advanced fundamentals putting him further along in development than the typical first round QB. The corollary, though, was that I wasn't sure how much improvement we were likely to see after that, because the improvement expected of most young QBs largely rested on learning the things Jones already knows.
If you liked Lawrence a lot, would you take a 2nd or a 3rd for Jones? This would take some of the sting out of starting over at QB again.
I don't know yet, there is a lot of grass to cut before this decision, but I think this has to be part of the discussion too.
I've made a couple posts on it but I think you easily get a 2nd for him unless his play falls off a cliff. He can 100% start int he NFL, we all know that - so a lot would have to change between now and then.
What would we accept for him? At this point you are committing to Lawrence so you kind of have to take what you can get. But yeah we can just keep him if we don't like the offer and trade him when the opportunity presents itself.
If you liked Lawrence a lot, would you take a 2nd or a 3rd for Jones? This would take some of the sting out of starting over at QB again.
I don't know yet, there is a lot of grass to cut before this decision, but I think this has to be part of the discussion too.
Sign me up for anything in the 2nd-4th round as compensation if we get #1 and intend on getting Lawrence.
We know his arm talent isn't on the same tier as Lawrence's, and he's prolly not as good a runner, either.
We were also blown out a lot last year so he faced some softer defenses. In these closer games not being able to run has been miserable and its forced him to continue to win games on his own.
Not sure he's regressed, he's played some good defenses and 2 really close games - all 3 with zero running game. And I mean 0.
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I’m somewhat amazed and disappointed in posters who are ready to move on from Daniel Jones. He’s played 15 games on a shit team. Hell, he’s one of the only reasons we’ve actually won some games last season. I have a feeling these posters will be singing a different tune 2 months from now.
I don't disagree ryan. Lots of snap judgments here though because of the poor start of course by NYG and Jones.
jones led the league in fumbles last year in an injury shortened season, and would have had the all-time single season fumble record if not for said injury.
this year he's looked average at best, on a terrible team with a terrible offense that is allergic to scoring, as has been the case for the last four years.
this "jones is better than eli at this point in their careers", or "how can you move on from jones, qb isn't the problem" takes are missing the forest for the trees, instead focusing on a leaf here or there.
gettleman should be run out of town for drafting a qb and an rb with no OL, while botching a half-assed OL rebuild three years running, and surrounding his QB with no skill position players, sure.
but the posters high on jones - what are you looking at? i see nothing except a guy who's regressed from an average rookie year, who holds onto the ball forever, and turns it over at inopportune times with careless decisions. maybe he improves down the stretch and the game "slows down" for him or whatever, but i'm not holding my breath.
gettleman's gotten enough wrong with the rebuild that he should get zero benefit of the doubt on drafting jones.
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In comment 14989552 ron mexico said:
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Jones has 13 games to play better and move us out of draft position to get TL
All he has to do is win 4-5 games in an awful division
FIFY
The converse is also true. If they can't win 4-5 games this season, then Jones has shown enough to move on without thinking twice.
Yup, my thoughts exactly
Relative to DJ though I mentioned above (and many here have said as well), QB development is not linear. Nobody likes being patient but there is no way 15 games tells me enough to suggest just "move on".
DJ needs to improve his game speed and ball protection and a few other things, but we are not a QB away from just winning.
Lets see when we get to December if QB has to go on the wish list.
Lawrence or no Lawrence, the current state of this roster dictates that the franchise is at least 2-3 years from even being respectable.
We can't operate that way anyway, if we are to get the #1 pick we need to make a decision that effects the next decade +, potentially. And that's also what Judge has been saying, that this is all a process and building a program takes some time.
You take the top qb and continue to build. Its like some of you think these two things are mutually exclusive.
He led them on the best Giants drive we’ve seen in decade against the Steelers, just 2 weeks ago. What are you talking about?
If the Giants have the second pick, and have the chance at a highly rated but not once-in-a-decade player, like Fields, the thought process is very different and retaining Jones should absolutely on the table.
If the Giants have the second pick, and have the chance at a highly rated but not once-in-a-decade player, like Fields, the thought process is very different and retaining Jones should absolutely on the table.
That's a very interesting point. I'm not a Fields guy but he may have more upside than Jones, too. He has some first round talent marks.
The other guy is Trey Lance. By the time the dust settles, he may be the #2 QB behind Lawrence...
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The ability to move the ball against a good, let alone great, defense. Most of his numbers originate from great games against awful teams. Right now, I am seeing his ceiling as a game manager. You don't win with game managers in this league unless the rest of the team is perfect, which is nearly impossible.
You take the top qb and continue to build. Its like some of you think these two things are mutually exclusive.
He led them on the best Giants drive we’ve seen in decade against the Steelers, just 2 weeks ago. What are you talking about?
One drive???? One Drive?????? That's your defense? Listen, I was as big a Jones supporter as there is. Outside of the one drive, how consistently has he moved the ball against even solid defenses? I cannot think of many examples
NOTHING is more important than a top flight QB, one who'll be a top 5 NFL QB over most of the next 15 years.
Not any combination of other good or very good players.
I am not comparing him to Jones, but that's what we could be looking at in terms of timeline, if at all. 5-6 years to hit on enough picks to finally get into contention.
Looking at most Superbowl matchups they feature teams with elite QB play or elite defenses for the most part. Trying to build an elite defense is something that's pretty unpredictable and never seems sustainable. But having a top QB is a sure fire way to get better quickly. If you have the opportunity to draft a guy who fits that description I think its insane not to do it.
I actually think there are a lot of similarities with Smith and Jones. This was my comp last night. Similar size, similar athleticism, and similar throwing skills. And both seem much better inside the hashes with throws than outside.
I do think, however, Jones throws a better long ball right now...
but if you look at it, here's what happened post Smith.
2006 - Vernon Davis 6th overall
2007 - Willis and Stayley at 11 and 28
2008 - Balmer at 29
2009 - Crabtree at 10
2010 - Anthony Davis at 11, Iupati at 17
2011 - Aldon Smith at 11, finally get to playoffs
This is a very realistic look at what any team that doesn't have a top tier QB will experience. Even with a good amount of 1st round hits it took a really long time to break .500 (2011).
but if you look at it, here's what happened post Smith.
2006 - Vernon Davis 6th overall
2007 - Willis and Stayley at 11 and 28
2008 - Balmer at 29
2009 - Crabtree at 10
2010 - Anthony Davis at 11, Iupati at 17
2011 - Aldon Smith at 11, finally get to playoffs
This is a very realistic look at what any team that doesn't have a top tier QB will experience. Even with a good amount of 1st round hits it took a really long time to break .500 (2011).
And then they added Harbaugh, and a very good staff around him, to really bolster the team. They did some very good work rejuvenating Smith's career.
We can't operate that way anyway, if we are to get the #1 pick we need to make a decision that effects the next decade +, potentially. And that's also what Judge has been saying, that this is all a process and building a program takes some time.
This x1000.
Lynch turned the 49ers around over night. Gettleman is the problem. He's had three shots at fixing Reese's and his own mistakes and he's failed each time.
I actually think the coaching staff might be worth keeping. But all the personnel guys have to go. They've failed too many years in a row.
Big Play to Turnover ratio. Right now, Jones is doing really poor in that metric. But I saw some flashes of Jones making some tremendous throws especially involving touch last year, so I'm not ready to just count him out. He made enough of those really nice throws last year for me to think he had the potential to be a really good QB, but I also saw a lot of flaws so it's not like I expected him to reach that level this year.
At this rate, if Jones plays like this the organization would be idiots to pass on Lawrence. But let's see how Jones progresses, and particularly in that Big Play/Elite Pass to Turnover ratio aspect that I mentioned.
But if this team has the opportunity to select Lawrence, it probably means that Jones didn't get much better over the course of the season so the question kind of answers itself. We'll see.
Totally agree. I almost feel like Jones has regressed this year. Not that he has much to throw to with the likes of Engram, Tate, and whoever the latest street free agent it is playing as our third WR. The only remotely legit option he has to throw to is Slayton, it’s pathetic.
I don't know about improvisation; Mahomes is really unusual in that area.
My impression of Lawrence is that he is just really clean. His throwing motion is tight and the ball really flies out of his hand. It just looks like its on a rail to the target.
No one is can't miss, but he approaches that standard as much as anyone else has.
On top of it all, his teammates adore the guy.
On top of it all, his teammates adore the guy.
No Apparent weaknesses at the college level anyway.
Anyway, in order to keep some interest in this season after this week the worst draft position they can have is #4.
Jets/Den, Min/Hou, Atl. Comes down to strength of schedule or lack thereof in the end.
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and seldom see Clemson play. Is Lawrence likely to be a similar overall talent to Mahomes? Does he have that level of arm strength and improvisation ability?
I don't know about improvisation; Mahomes is really unusual in that area.
My impression of Lawrence is that he is just really clean. His throwing motion is tight and the ball really flies out of his hand. It just looks like its on a rail to the target.
No one is can't miss, but he approaches that standard as much as anyone else has.
Yep
If you love Lawrence and don't LOVE Jones, you pick Lawrence and call it a fday. What? You want to trade Dan Marino for Dexter Lawrence, Baker, McKinney, Shepard and Herandez? No you don't.
It's simple but knowing the Giants they over think it. If you merely like Jones after this season, bye bye Jones, assuming you love Lawrence, and everyone loves him so it's a safe assumption.
Great QBs don't need excuses, they just win. Decent QBs need things to be OK around them or they lose. bad QBs don't win at all. Either way, if you aint winning, the QB is part of the problem. We all know this by now. Eli may not have been THE problem at the end, but he wasn't the solution either. We need solutions. No more over thinking shit.
That said, The Giants likely find their sea legs at some point this season like just about any team will. They will win games at some point so this is probably all moot.
I don't see a trade with the Jets happening ever so I doubt this happens, it would need to be someone else and even then I don't see that team passing on him except for the Bengals I guess.
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Their 1st, seahawks 1st, their 2nd and their 2 1sts next year?
If you love Lawrence and don't LOVE Jones, you pick Lawrence and call it a fday. What? You want to trade Dan Marino for Dexter Lawrence, Baker, McKinney, Shepard and Herandez? No you don't.
It's simple but knowing the Giants they over think it. If you merely like Jones after this season, bye bye Jones, assuming you love Lawrence, and everyone loves him so it's a safe assumption.
I'd make this trade so fast your head would spin. Make them throw in Darnold too, so Jones and Darnold can battle it out. We have a lot of holes
Super college player but do we really need to keep pressing the (nearly) can't miss stuff?
And go to the Jets? Terrible line and weapons.
He isn't going to refuse to sign - he has a lot to risk on his end. With the slotted CBA money isn't a factor either.
With all the bullshit around Kyler Murray, the wavering between baseball and football, endorsement deals, etc. do you think he really wanted to be in Arizona of all places?
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In comment 14989451 nygiants16 said:
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Their 1st, seahawks 1st, their 2nd and their 2 1sts next year?
If you love Lawrence and don't LOVE Jones, you pick Lawrence and call it a fday. What? You want to trade Dan Marino for Dexter Lawrence, Baker, McKinney, Shepard and Herandez? No you don't.
It's simple but knowing the Giants they over think it. If you merely like Jones after this season, bye bye Jones, assuming you love Lawrence, and everyone loves him so it's a safe assumption.
I'd make this trade so fast your head would spin. Make them throw in Darnold too, so Jones and Darnold can battle it out. We have a lot of holes
I hear you but I don't any more quantity. I want greatness.
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Giants and threatened a holdout. He is not a come from nowhere guy, he's been the lead dog since HS. Looking at the Giants OL, uncertainty at GM, HC, lack of weapons, no defense, I could see him asking for a trade out if the Giants have the #1 pick.
And go to the Jets? Terrible line and weapons.
He isn't going to refuse to sign - he has a lot to risk on his end. With the slotted CBA money isn't a factor either.
With all the bullshit around Kyler Murray, the wavering between baseball and football, endorsement deals, etc. do you think he really wanted to be in Arizona of all places?
Its a stretch, not saying its likely so lets be clear, just that I wouldn't be shocked. The Giants are a mess with no clear path. For a kid like Lawrence who I think is in a different strata then Murray or Burrow, would he (and his agent) want to try and force his way? Don't know, we saw Eli do it because SD was so bad.