What are people's thoughts so far?
My thought is he might be the single biggest problem with the team.
I know there's been a lot of complaints about the level of talent, but the offense has a 1st round pick at QB, OT, and TE, a high 2nd round pick at LG, a high priced RG, a WR making $10m per year and another WR who showed a lot of potential last year.
To me, the offensive has seemed predictable and it doesn't seem to be putting players in the best position to do well. In my opinion, they should be doing stuff like more play action (Jones is really good with play action, but they don't seem to run it much), running players in motion more to confuse defenses and simplify coverage schemes, and Slayton should be line up all over to help get him open (WRs don't appear to be schemed open, at all, in this offense).
Do you notice that we keep blaming the coaches over and over again?
I suggest you re-read Lawrence Tyne's tweet.
Garrett is handicapped with no running game, in the 2nd half yesterday it started to move a little bit..
I thought his 3rd down call when they were down 10-9 and tate got demolished was terrible, rams defense looked like it was a little tired, run it with Freeman up the middle and get the 2 yards
Do you notice that we keep blaming the coaches over and over again?
I suggest you re-read Lawrence Tyne's tweet.
Giants do not have a go to receiver, good teams have that guy when they need a play they draw up a play for that player..Giants do not have that so it makes it that much harder for the qb and oc..
Do you notice that we keep blaming the coaches over and over again?
I suggest you re-read Lawrence Tyne's tweet.
Eric, any chance you have a link to that? I don't have a Twitter account and am lazy....more later than former.
Raitley was cut by the Cleveland Browns.
Let me educate you. This current team has zero weapons available that defenses plan for.
Tate- Washed
Shep- OUT and average
Barkley- OUT for year
Engram- AVG
Slayton- #2
Let me educate you. This current team has zero weapons available that defenses plan for.
Tate- Washed
Shep- OUT and average
Barkley- OUT for year
Engram- AVG
Slayton- #2
Facts
Raitley was cut by the Cleveland Browns.
I agree that is why i said they do not have that number 1 guy..
In those situations teams always habe set plays for the number 1..
I am not going to argue if they should of traded beckham but not having a nukber 1 is killing them
The offensive line seems to be coming around, and if there's a second metric of evaluation for Garrett that will be it. Flemming played with him in Dallas. Columbo has only ever coached with him in Dallas. Bill Callahan was out there for the taking if they could have mended the fence. Biadasz was sitting there in the draft for the taking a few times and he's already been pressed into action in Dallas (Gates did play by far his best game yesterday though).
Garrett also seems to be doing a very poor job utilizing the few weapons he has - namely Slayton and Engram. Engram's issues in the past have been injuries and the occasional drop but he has never not produced when healthy. Until now. Slayton is just M.I.A. for the most part.
Obviously it's early on in year 1 but this is an area where we absolutely need to hope Judge is up to making an assessment on the future direction he wants to after the season. Hopefully things get better and the decision becomes obvious, but if not Brian Flores fired his OC last year after his first season.
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With the game on the line with 57 seconds left, the Giants had Damion Ratley on the field (intended receiver on the INT).
Raitley was cut by the Cleveland Browns.
I agree that is why i said they do not have that number 1 guy..
In those situations teams always habe set plays for the number 1..
I am not going to argue if they should of traded beckham but not having a nukber 1 is killing them
and the amazing thing he is now listed as our #1 WR on the depth chart. Its nuts.
Do you notice that we keep blaming the coaches over and over again?
I suggest you re-read Lawrence Tyne's tweet.
Would have been harder to not be top 10 with their level of talent.
I'd give him 2 years -- Let's see what he can do w/ a year under his belt, Barkley back (hopefully), and either T. Lawrence or a bounty of top offensive draft picks chosen by someone other than DG.
Let me educate you. This current team has zero weapons available that defenses plan for.
Tate- Washed
Shep- OUT and average
Barkley- OUT for year
Engram- AVG
Slayton- #2
Thank you for the link and as to the education....If you look further down on Tynes page where he says he's only interested in the 'fight on the field' that play is where Ramsey BLOWS through Lewis and then plants Tate. He crushed TWO of our players on one play.
I'm not disputing lack of weapons, but other QBs make due with what they have. I think DJ has some progress to make in this offense, I think the pick late was him forcing a pass in and I think his legs are an outstanding added dimension. He was trying to make a play but seemed like he was staring down his reciever as well.....
Garret may not want him standing there waiting for a deep throw to open up while a DT beats one of the Giants tackles and takes Jones's head off.
Add that to the fact that he has no real talent to throw to who can get separation.
Let me educate you. This current team has zero weapons available that defenses plan for.
Tate- Washed
Shep- OUT and average
Barkley- OUT for year
Engram- AVG
Slayton- #2
I was told by many people on here that Slayton was a #1
not sure you can blame it all on injuries and lousy players, though gettleman has surrounded jones with almost nothing, and jones himself might be nothing.
2 he pats the ball everytime right before he throws the ball, dbs see that on film and break on the ball..
He needs to correct those 2 things
How many OC's have we had in the last decade again?
2 he pats the ball everytime right before he throws the ball, dbs see that on film and break on the ball..
He needs to correct those 2 things
to fix those things we need to understand why he does them in the first place. I don't know the answer to that question but he looks a lot less decisive making his reads this year than he did at any point last year when he by and large had similar personnel. Shurmur's system seems like it was both better at distributing the ball quickly and going downfield (to this point).
Let me educate you. This current team has zero weapons available that defenses plan for.
Tate- Washed
Shep- OUT and average
Barkley- OUT for year
Engram- AVG
Slayton- #2
I get the sentiment, I just disagree with it. When players aren't put in positions to succeed, they don't look good. With Engram, Slayton, and Tate, they need to be schemed open, and the offense isn't doing that. In Dallas, Garrett created a scheme that required WRs to get open on their own, and they were able to do that. He's not adjusting to the personnel in NY.
Don't get me wrong, I believe there's a talent issue on the team (and we need a new GM), but I don't think the coaching staff is helping them on offense.
-A sophomore QB who is still in the curing process
-We have several talent deficient position groups, WR is glaring now, it wasn't in August.
Coach Judge (and staff) are building this plane while it's flying. I still think this staff has an excellent chance to build a great team, but it won't be this year.
-The cupboard seems bare, but several players haven't panned out. The GM has to bet on the come, and I think he's been doing that. He can't control all the results.
Kitchens got promoted to HC in Cleveland because of how good an assistant coach he was, including coaching TEs. Notice how Engram isn't improving under Kitchens?
Burns was a legend at Alabama. But some guy signed off the street is already getting more carries than Wayne Gallman.
This team is carrying only four WRs and two of them were waived recently.
Quote:
𝗟𝗮𝘄𝗿𝗲𝗻𝗰𝗲 𝗧𝘆𝗻𝗲𝘀 @lt4kicks
Let me educate you. This current team has zero weapons available that defenses plan for.
Tate- Washed
Shep- OUT and average
Barkley- OUT for year
Engram- AVG
Slayton- #2
I get the sentiment, I just disagree with it. When players aren't put in positions to succeed, they don't look good. With Engram, Slayton, and Tate, they need to be schemed open, and the offense isn't doing that. In Dallas, Garrett created a scheme that required WRs to get open on their own, and they were able to do that. He's not adjusting to the personnel in NY.
Don't get me wrong, I believe there's a talent issue on the team (and we need a new GM), but I don't think the coaching staff is helping them on offense.
This doesn't really make sense. If the defense is playing zone then you scheme to get into gaps. If its a man-to-man, then yes its imperative for the WR to win the matchup. You try to get players into 1-on-1 matchups with no help (from over the top or underneath) so they can win them. This is why a QB is always trying to find the WR who only has a single matchup.
This is the way everyone does it. There are variations of this, but in general this is what happens
1) The Oline is a major work in progress. They are still figuring things out. They did look better for a lot of yesterday.
2) While the Oline has struggled that has meant the running game has also struggled. If you cannot run you become one dimensional.
3) Without the run the one dimensional aspect becomes the pass and that means exposing your young QB to pressure and hits while trowing to guys who wouldn't be one some teams and sure as hell would not be starting.
4) The Oline struggle lead to the Giants carrying 4 TE's and honestly 3 of them are average blockers and the 4th might as well be a ghost.
The offense really can't do much until the Oline can get its act together and yesterday was a step forward. To be honest it was way better than I expected.
A few areas that need to change-
a) We need to stop running the fake handoff mis direction to the left while bringing one of the TE's from the left to the right with Jones rolling right as NOBODY is falling for it. All you do is run that TE right into the stay at home DE while the LB or CB to that side charges Jones. Until we prove we can run consistently we can't waste that kind of play.
b) The Giants need to send Ratley or Board deep and throw to them once or twice just to keep defenses honest. Nobody is looking deep except if Slayton is running. We can't make 11 and 12 play drives as we just leave ourselves open to possible misatkes and penalties. We are not the 89 or 90 Giants who would just wear defenses down play after play controlling the clock.
c) If Penny is on the roster he needs to be on the field. If not then he needs to go. Waste of a roster spot if you are never using a FB.
d) The Giants had multiple chances to turn the game around offensively and we just couldn't make the catch or the block or make a guy miss when we needed it.
** One thing on Jones and some people here and even the media is the tired use of locking on or not going through his progressions. Many here have no clue what they are talking about. Soem read what SY wrote (not knocking SY at all)and then state stuff like they know what is happening. Then yesterday to hear Mark Schlereth (stink was his nickname and it fits)talk non stop about Jones locking on was just too much. Case in point:
The first time he mentioned it associated to a play in yesterdays game was when Jones rolled left (short side of teh field) and ended up getting sacked. Stink then says Jones locked on and by the time he started to go through his progressions he got sacked. He then pointed out teh sack was on Jones. #1- the replay showed Jones rolling left to the short side of the field with ZERO receiving options to that side. Tate ran a nothing route (literally did nothing) and there were at least 3 Rams in his area. The next closest receiver was in the middle of the field which would be back to Jones's right and that person was double covered and by position on the field impossible for Jones to throw to anyway. The only thing Jones could have done is throw the ball down the field out of bounds. NOTHING was happening on that play!
Jones does lock on to the short receiver (Engram, Tate and sometimes slayton or the back) a bit much but some of that is from design and a knowing that you aren't getting much time to throw. If he were forcing deeper throws down the middle of the field and getting picked off I would be more worried. What needs to happen is we have to start sending someone deep down the sideline and throw to them, just to start getting the CB's and safeties to back off a tad.
So is it on Garett, no not yet. #8 is problematic. He does need to move more on rollouts although it does look like he is getting more time under center which he needs. He also needs reliable receivers and some who can stretch the field vertically. Garrett needs that as his offense fits that.
So everyone is learning especially.ly ‘O’ line. This was perfectly predictable given new coaches, young players, and absent practice time. First half of season there was one or two games we might win.
Let’s see if the defense was for real on Sunday and see if our O improves over second quarter of season. So far I’m seeing what I expected, except for #8, he is worrisome.
I doubt THREE of these four will even be on the team next year.
Pat Shurmur had as little, maybe even less talent to work with, but the NYG were 19th in offense. Jones looks like he has regressed markedly, which is concerning. Coaches get paid too.
Using Kitchens getting a HC job based on his TE coaching is a little spurious given how piss poor Cleveland's decision-making has been. EVERYONE expected him to be a HC disaster, everyone except the CLE FO.
Jason Garrett is not one of the reasons we are 0-4.
Jason Garrett is not one of the reasons we are 0-4.
We've scored 3 TD's in 4 games. Maybe Jason Garrett isn't THE reason, but he is certainly one of them.
Pat Shurmur had the same cast of characters, his OL was worse, but had far more production. Jones has regressed noticably.
Pat Shurmur had as little, maybe even less talent to work with, but the NYG were 19th in offense. Jones looks like he has regressed markedly, which is concerning. Coaches get paid too.
Using Kitchens getting a HC job based on his TE coaching is a little spurious given how piss poor Cleveland's decision-making has been. EVERYONE expected him to be a HC disaster, everyone except the CLE FO.
#1... we can flip that argument completely around too. It works both ways. Garrett didn't forget how to coach.
#2... Shurmur had Saquon Barkley, who improved as the year progressed. He was the only player on this team who scared the opposition, even when he was hurt. The fact that you can't recognize the impact of his loss is weird.
#3... "spurious"... Kitchens was regarded as a top notch TEs coach. Why would that change? Weird comment.
New schemes take time. We've seen glimpses of the defense coming together as a unit, and they really put a nice "whole" game together against the Rams, which was probably their toughest test.
The offense is going to take time, whether you want to admit it or not. And because of the injuries, it might take more time than expected. It's just reality.
The NFL unfortunately doesn't work that way, we are no different than any of the other teams that did this during the rebuilding/changing schemes phase.
And now, with Barkley out, the Covid offseason, etc...it might just take more time than excepted. Not sure what else to say about this.
The NFL unfortunately doesn't work that way, we are no different than any of the other teams that did this during the rebuilding/changing schemes phase.
And now, with Barkley out, the Covid offseason, etc...it might just take more time than excepted. Not sure what else to say about this.
This is a very accurate statement. People screaming for another change think a change creates immediate results. We are effectively at the end of preseason now (4 games) and people want change again. I firmly believe if we draft Lawrence, then by the end of next year they will want us to draft the next "can't miss" QB.
Now Garrett is the current punching bag for posters that really have no idea whether either coach is good or bad at running an offense for the NYG.
Not supporting either guy but I do know that you all don’t know.
Are we now playing revisionist history with Pat Shurmur? He was a truly horrible head coach.
Not sure Garrett ever really knew how to coach in the first place
Lewis completely whiffed on his block on that play, he didn't get run over he just missed
I think they need to try and trade him.
But in the end they never got past the divisional round with him as the coach, so that's probably a negative. I'll say this, he pretty much always kicked our ass as the head coach of the Cowboys so....there's that.
True, i did forget about that brutal non call for PI. That was one of the worst ever.
We had an very different run look this week that I think is all on Garrets ability to adjust. We add some playmaking into the mix and we will be back on track.
Let me educate you. This current team has zero weapons available that defenses plan for.
Tate- Washed
Shep- OUT and average
Barkley- OUT for year
Engram- AVG
Slayton- #2
Wow...and this is exactly why they are 0-4. Engram practices like a stud plays like a dud. Not sure why they don't use Smith more.
Quote:
Since they were handed a win by the refs against the Lions the week prior.
True, i did forget about that brutal non call for PI. That was one of the worst ever.
Worse yet, flags were thrown for PI. But then the refs "huddled" and then picked up the flag. On blatant PI.
Are we now playing revisionist history with Pat Shurmur? He was a truly horrible head coach.
No doubt, PS was in WAY over his head, but he has shown himself to be a) a good OC, and b) good with QB's. He gameplanned a team that won 11 games with KASE KEENUM at QB.
I'm not arguing firing Garrett, but the play calling and Jones significant regression are concerning.
Overall, one of those "safe" hires that paradoxically seldom winds up being safe.
Are we now playing revisionist history with Pat Shurmur? He was a truly horrible head coach.
Not revisionist anything. The Giants aren't scoring...at all. And I don't see anything special in the Offensive gameplanning or execution versus last year. DJ is regressing.
Again, not suggesting Garrett is the right guy but was Shurmur's offense really worse? I don't think so.
Quote:
𝗟𝗮𝘄𝗿𝗲𝗻𝗰𝗲 𝗧𝘆𝗻𝗲𝘀 @lt4kicks
Let me educate you. This current team has zero weapons available that defenses plan for.
Tate- Washed
Shep- OUT and average
Barkley- OUT for year
Engram- AVG
Slayton- #2
Wow...and this is exactly why they are 0-4. Engram practices like a stud plays like a dud. Not sure why they don't use Smith more.
I think he's being charitable. If we actually had a #2 and 2 average guys, that would be enough to get a good offense going.
The Giants blitzed a lot yesterday, the problem on this play was that the safety jumped to the RB in the flat and Kupp ran right by him. That is an execution problem.
New schemes take time. We've seen glimpses of the defense coming together as a unit, and they really put a nice "whole" game together against the Rams, which was probably their toughest test.
The offense is going to take time, whether you want to admit it or not. And because of the injuries, it might take more time than expected. It's just reality.
The defense played pretty well v Pitt and Chicago before the stinker v SF. The offense has scored 3 TD's in 4 games, 47 pts, 20 less than the 31st place Jets. I'm not calling for firing Garrett, but there are troubling signs.
Special teams and emergency RB is my guess.
2 he pats the ball everytime right before he throws the ball, dbs see that on film and break on the ball..
He needs to correct those 2 things
Good try, If DBs are watching the QB, then they are beaten. So that theory is hogwash.
Steamin Beamen?
Quote:
Willie Beamen.
Steamin Beamen?
Yes.
Elway, Marino, Favre, and plenty of other QB's pat the ball. Not something I feel strongly about one way or another.
There's another couple differences from those guys:
1. All had major arm strength and could zip the ball in ways Jones can't
2. Passing offenses in the 80s didn't rely as much on timing as they do now
Jones's hitch is an issue.
I think we all have to realize that this season is about finding who are the players and who are the next batch to be released at the end of the year. Yep I get all worked up too, but once Judge said he planned on young guys getting playing time during the games, I am willing to concede that this season is one big spring training. This is exactly what we wanted(if we go back and look out out expectations). This is the long game. This is evaluations.
Downs out, Crowder in. Ballentine out, Yiadom in and then out and Lewis in. Markus Golden barely on the field.
I think we will just have to eat shit and like it this year.
It was one of the things that drove me crazy about McAdoo's offense - so little pre-snap motion. In addition to the benefits Terps mentioned, it also allows a free release for the WR's in motion, making it harder for DB's to jam at the LOS. For a guy like Slayton, who has really struggled with that, more motion would help.
Good try, If DBs are watching the QB, then they are beaten. So that theory is hogwash.
You don't think DB's look at the QB? Less in man coverage, but they absolutely do in zone, and most teams are playing zone because Jones has struggled with it.
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Good try, If DBs are watching the QB, then they are beaten. So that theory is hogwash.
You don't think DB's look at the QB? Less in man coverage, but they absolutely do in zone, and most teams are playing zone because Jones has struggled with it.
Long known and spoken about each week by the announcers, DBs that watch the QB get burned by receivers. It seems natural to me to watch the QB, but how can you know where the receiver is if you watch the QB. Even in zone, if you watch the QB, how would you know who is there.
Understand and read this slowly. I am not saying the Maras went to Judge and said you don't get the job if you don't hire Jason Garrett as your OC. I'm not saying after he was hired the Maras went to Judge and said we are ordering you to hire Jason Garrett as your OC.
What I am saying is that the Maras plural used their influence on their rookie HC to strongly suggest that Jason Garrett would be the perfect fit as OC even though Judge had no relationship with him.
Have any of you ever joined a new organization in a high level position and had that kind of conversation? Trust me in Judge's situation that's as much pressure as he'll ever feel to do what the owners want him to do and I wonder if he has the authority if the rest of this season keeps going in this direction to change OCs if that's what he wants to do.
We'll probably never know we can only speculate.
Somebody better damn well figure out a way to get that ball into the end zone for a few touchdowns this week.
Understand and read this slowly. I am not saying the Maras went to Judge and said you don't get the job if you don't hire Jason Garrett as your OC. I'm not saying after he was hired the Maras went to Judge and said we are ordering you to hire Jason Garrett as your OC.
What I am saying is that the Maras plural used their influence on their rookie HC to strongly suggest that Jason Garrett would be the perfect fit as OC even though Judge had no relationship with him.
Have any of you ever joined a new organization in a high level position and had that kind of conversation? Trust me in Judge's situation that's as much pressure as he'll ever feel to do what the owners want him to do and I wonder if he has the authority if the rest of this season keeps going in this direction to change OCs if that's what he wants to do.
We'll probably never know we can only speculate.
If he didn't take Garrett of his own accord(or at least strongly consider him) then he would have been a fool. Garrett was one of the best OC candidate out there, if not the best. Hell he was probably one of the best HC candidates out there.
So what is your point? Just throw shit at the wall and see how much sticks?
Long known and spoken about each week by the announcers, DBs that watch the QB get burned by receivers. It seems natural to me to watch the QB, but how can you know where the receiver is if you watch the QB. Even in zone, if you watch the QB, how would you know who is there.
That they sometimes get burned by it doesn't mean they don't do it, don't have success doing it (the good ones do), and aren't taught to do it (they are).
The good news for those of us that would prefer a young cutting edge OC in 2021 is that since he's such a qualified HC candidate some team will hire him away from the Giants.
The good news for those of us that would prefer a young cutting edge OC in 2021 is that since he's such a qualified HC candidate some team will hire him away from the Giants.
Honestly I think it was as much about Garrett having head coach experience to be able to help judge as it was the offense.
People look at coaches and think if they did a job 10 years ago, they can do it just as well today. Jason Garrett had play calling taken away from him in Dallas.
During the hiring process they sold him as "developed Tony romo and dak" when nobody really knows how much responsibility to give him for that.