2nd time in 3 weeks we saw a team with multipe all-pro players mssing and we lost.. How can the Cowboys have 8 OL that are better than our best OL? How come backup RBs look so good against us and at times better than our 2nd overall pick.. especially when we have invested so heavily in our DL..
Can someone please explain how are we any better than we were 3 years ago? He really needs to go.. Dallas probably has a better OL talent on their practice squad team than we have on starters.. after all these investments..
don't confuse not shitting on the guy at every possible moment with defending him. When people say he's never been a good GM, I point them to his record in Carolina and that he's their most successful GM ever. When people say he shits on analytics, I've pointed to him putting the system in place in Carolina.
I've said a lot that he's made some poor moves, especailly in FA and that this year was critical in evaluating him. People don't want to hear that though.
Look at Lax Counsel - the fucking imbecile claims I haven't discussed the team in 4 weeks. Just last week, I was on over 60 threads. Do I really need to go back 4 weeks??
With Gettleman, you either have a pitchfork and think the guy is the worst thing ever, or you are a ardent supporter of him.
I trust you know the difference here. When you have a group of posters calling themselves "realists" and their fix to the team is simply to get rid of Gettleman and Jones that should tell you what you need to know.
Dude....
Quote:
where I've defended Gettleman
Dude....
lol
They're so frustrated that they change everything too often and it's like starting over from square 1 every time they turn over management and key players.
George Young started out fast in '79 picking Simms and '80 CB Mark Haynes (twice All Pro, three time Pro Bowl.
Then in '81 came Taylor. Joe Morris 2nd round '82 (one All Pro, two time PB) was our RB for the first SB team. Another piece of the defense with Leonard Marshall 2nd round '83.
Then in '84 came Carl Banks, a little controversial since LB was already strongest position. In '85 he finally missed in drafting a really good starter in rounds 1 or 2, but by picking Bavaro in 4th round we let 1985 slide.
The climax of Young's drafting came in 1986, year of first Super Bowl win. Giants had a No. 1, a No. 3 and four second rounders and he drafted all defense, adding Mark Collins, Erik Howard and Pepper Johnson. Three misses out of the six not bad considering quality haul.
Then for his last nine years he drafted offense with every first round pick (including 1993 1st round pick wasted on the supplemental draft.)
Mark Ingram (in the first round!) '87
Eric Moore
Brian Williams
Rodney Hampton
Jarrod Bunch
The (infamous) Derek Brown
Supplemental Pick in '93
Thomas Lewis
Tyrone Wheatley
In the 2nd and 3rd round of those drafts, he managed to find defensive starters in Greg Jackson (9 years roster),
Phillippi Sparks (7 years)
Jesse Armstead (in 8th round, 5 time Pro Bowl)
Jason Sehorn
Michael Strahan (2nd round '93)
As the team went downhill after 90 SuperBowl win, incredibly frustrated with Young drafting all offense, and not very well.
So Gettleman may start getting lucky.
If you keep changing every few years, I think that's worse than sticking with someone going through a bad spell.
Given how many years of evidence we have, it's certainly both.
I absolutely love it.
He simply hasn't been good at drafting. If 3 drafts, each with high picks, aren't enough for you to turn the team around, then you are not a very good GM. Barely 1 or 2 players on this roster aren't his, I don't know how some fans can still find one excuse after another to defend him.
But look at what he has wrought. 3 top 10 picks, 3 free agent signing periods. Hiring Shurmur.
This is a results oriented business.
Hindsight being 20/20 Acorsi was a genius.
All of us live and die with this team and the Maras have made a living off of that loyalty. I believe that they want to rebuild the Giants. I believe that Mara and Tisch want to deliver a better product to their fans. I just don’t believe they know how—and without a Pete Rozelle or a lucky break like Tom Coughlin coming along to rescue them I fear that the losing continues and that Jones, Thomas, Baker, Hernandez, and so on become just another in a long line of failed promises.
Same. That should be a good read.
Me too actually.
All of us live and die with this team and the Maras have made a living off of that loyalty. I believe that they want to rebuild the Giants. I believe that Mara and Tisch want to deliver a better product to their fans. I just don’t believe they know how—and without a Pete Rozelle or a lucky break like Tom Coughlin coming along to rescue them I fear that the losing continues and that Jones, Thomas, Baker, Hernandez, and so on become just another in a long line of failed promises.
Gettleman certainly thought he was fixing the problem. No dice.
How much of recent NY Giants culture problems lie with Dave Gettleman? - ( New Window )
Quote:
I love you. I'm one of your biggest fans. But, do you really not believe you have been one of Gettleman's bigger supporters? These days, that isn't even saying all that much. Maybe you haven't done much to defend his job with the Giants directly. But, is isn't it fair to say you've at least defended what he did in Carolina?
don't confuse not shitting on the guy at every possible moment with defending him. When people say he's never been a good GM, I point them to his record in Carolina and that he's their most successful GM ever. When people say he shits on analytics, I've pointed to him putting the system in place in Carolina.
I've said a lot that he's made some poor moves, especailly in FA and that this year was critical in evaluating him. People don't want to hear that though.
Look at Lax Counsel - the fucking imbecile claims I haven't discussed the team in 4 weeks. Just last week, I was on over 60 threads. Do I really need to go back 4 weeks??
With Gettleman, you either have a pitchfork and think the guy is the worst thing ever, or you are a ardent supporter of him.
I trust you know the difference here. When you have a group of posters calling themselves "realists" and their fix to the team is simply to get rid of Gettleman and Jones that should tell you what you need to know.
I am still on the fence for whether we should fire him or not. I will say that after picking 3 straight years in the top of the draft, I would expect better talent than 3 years ago, not the same or worse. I think that is a fair expectation. The rest of this season is critical at 2 positions, in my opinion. QB and OL. Those are the 2 positions that will make or break the franchise moving forward. To that end, I think we need to see Lemieux and Peart. If they show anything, there is both reason to be optimistic the OL will be better next year and as a residual we can be optimistic for better QB play and a better running game. If they suck, we are in bad shape and it makes me worried about moving forward with Jones. IF they don't play at all, I think there will still be too many question marks at QB and OL and Gettleman or the next GM will have their hands full with a critical off season.
They're so frustrated that they change everything too often and it's like starting over from square 1 every time they turn over management and key players.
George Young started out fast in '79 picking Simms and '80 CB Mark Haynes (twice All Pro, three time Pro Bowl.
Then in '81 came Taylor. Joe Morris 2nd round '82 (one All Pro, two time PB) was our RB for the first SB team. Another piece of the defense with Leonard Marshall 2nd round '83.
Then in '84 came Carl Banks, a little controversial since LB was already strongest position. In '85 he finally missed in drafting a really good starter in rounds 1 or 2, but by picking Bavaro in 4th round we let 1985 slide.
The climax of Young's drafting came in 1986, year of first Super Bowl win. Giants had a No. 1, a No. 3 and four second rounders and he drafted all defense, adding Mark Collins, Erik Howard and Pepper Johnson. Three misses out of the six not bad considering quality haul.
Then for his last nine years he drafted offense with every first round pick (including 1993 1st round pick wasted on the supplemental draft.)
Mark Ingram (in the first round!) '87
Eric Moore
Brian Williams
Rodney Hampton
Jarrod Bunch
The (infamous) Derek Brown
Supplemental Pick in '93
Thomas Lewis
Tyrone Wheatley
In the 2nd and 3rd round of those drafts, he managed to find defensive starters in Greg Jackson (9 years roster),
Phillippi Sparks (7 years)
Jesse Armstead (in 8th round, 5 time Pro Bowl)
Jason Sehorn
Michael Strahan (2nd round '93)
As the team went downhill after 90 SuperBowl win, incredibly frustrated with Young drafting all offense, and not very well.
So Gettleman may start getting lucky.
If you keep changing every few years, I think that's worse than sticking with someone going through a bad spell.
Quote:
like Bills (until this year), Browns, Jets, Redskins.
They're so frustrated that they change everything too often and it's like starting over from square 1 every time they turn over management and key players.
George Young started out fast in '79 picking Simms and '80 CB Mark Haynes (twice All Pro, three time Pro Bowl.
Then in '81 came Taylor. Joe Morris 2nd round '82 (one All Pro, two time PB) was our RB for the first SB team. Another piece of the defense with Leonard Marshall 2nd round '83.
Then in '84 came Carl Banks, a little controversial since LB was already strongest position. In '85 he finally missed in drafting a really good starter in rounds 1 or 2, but by picking Bavaro in 4th round we let 1985 slide.
The climax of Young's drafting came in 1986, year of first Super Bowl win. Giants had a No. 1, a No. 3 and four second rounders and he drafted all defense, adding Mark Collins, Erik Howard and Pepper Johnson. Three misses out of the six not bad considering quality haul.
Then for his last nine years he drafted offense with every first round pick (including 1993 1st round pick wasted on the supplemental draft.)
Mark Ingram (in the first round!) '87
Eric Moore
Brian Williams
Rodney Hampton
Jarrod Bunch
The (infamous) Derek Brown
Supplemental Pick in '93
Thomas Lewis
Tyrone Wheatley
In the 2nd and 3rd round of those drafts, he managed to find defensive starters in Greg Jackson (9 years roster),
Phillippi Sparks (7 years)
Jesse Armstead (in 8th round, 5 time Pro Bowl)
Jason Sehorn
Michael Strahan (2nd round '93)
As the team went downhill after 90 SuperBowl win, incredibly frustrated with Young drafting all offense, and not very well.
So Gettleman may start getting lucky.
If you keep changing every few years, I think that's worse than sticking with someone going through a bad spell.
I'm not sure the point. Young's downfall wasn't his drafting but his inability to adapt to the new world of FA and salary cap.
I wouldn’t have gone with Eric Dorsey as a 1st round pick though.
He simply hasn't been good at drafting. If 3 drafts, each with high picks, aren't enough for you to turn the team around, then you are not a very good GM. Barely 1 or 2 players on this roster aren't his, I don't know how some fans can still find one excuse after another to defend him.
This is why I hope the next GM doesn't really come from a scouting background. It was obvious that he was approaching the job from that perspective and you need to have humility in understanding that you're guessing on these picks/signings. You're dealing with a range of outcomes and somebody with a background in economics, data or some sort of abstract science is more equipped to make these decisions in the modern competitive landscape.
This isn't to say that a person with a scouting background wouldn't make a great GM, there are plenty examples that support that, ie. Newsome and Ballard. But their actions suggest that they are able to think in that way in their decision making process. Gettleman doesn't. The Leonard Williams trade is the perfect embodiment of why he failed. Leonard Williams is a very good player, so Gettleman got him without even thinking about all the variables involved in that transaction. See ball, get ball. Not to open up that can of worms but the Saquan pick is another example. We were sitting on a lottery ticket with that 2nd pick and cashed it out on a single RB.
Quote:
In comment 15005146 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
so losing today is indicative of the GM??
I had you and Dep arguing with me that trading for Russell Wilson for three firsts made no sense because we still had Eli. You’re the last person on this board who I want to hear defend dave Gettleman
He’s the worst poster on this board. There’s an entire thread about him. No reason to argue with him. He’ll revert back into hiding just like last year (and the past 4 weeks)
He is also one of the biggest liar's on this board. I recall I said I thought Sam Darnold was going to be a good QB. He changed what I said to suggests I said Darnold was going to be elite/or generational. He'll weasel anything you say so he can protect DG.
For those of us who hated DG's outlook of trying to win right away-- he throws insults at the posters. OFC if other posters that defend DG and say he was trying to win in year 1, FMIC doesn't care because those posts are defending DG.
When you criticized the Barkley pick - - what does he do? He throws insults.
I recall the poster McL creating a thread with links why he thought the OLINE was os poor last year-- and what does FMIC do? He continually went after MCL with insults.
With this guy-- it's "defend DG at all costs."
Quote:
where I've defended Gettleman
You killed anyone who criticized the dumb ass idea of retooling around a cooked Eli Manning for 2 years. This is a large reason why we are when’re we are
100%. He's been the biggest Gettleman fluffer in the world. Ive received numerous insults for simply being objective about the direction of this franchise. I generally dont comment on his nonsense anymore because his arrogance in being wrong about literally everything Giants for the past 3 years is clearly a sign of mental illness. But now pretending he hasn't defended Gettleman is too much.
Quote:
blindly. Don't tell me DG didn't personally see these top picks or at least watch countless tapes on them.
He simply hasn't been good at drafting. If 3 drafts, each with high picks, aren't enough for you to turn the team around, then you are not a very good GM. Barely 1 or 2 players on this roster aren't his, I don't know how some fans can still find one excuse after another to defend him.
This is why I hope the next GM doesn't really come from a scouting background. It was obvious that he was approaching the job from that perspective and you need to have humility in understanding that you're guessing on these picks/signings. You're dealing with a range of outcomes and somebody with a background in economics, data or some sort of abstract science is more equipped to make these decisions in the modern competitive landscape.
This isn't to say that a person with a scouting background wouldn't make a great GM, there are plenty examples that support that, ie. Newsome and Ballard. But their actions suggest that they are able to think in that way in their decision making process. Gettleman doesn't. The Leonard Williams trade is the perfect embodiment of why he failed. Leonard Williams is a very good player, so Gettleman got him without even thinking about all the variables involved in that transaction. See ball, get ball. Not to open up that can of worms but the Saquan pick is another example. We were sitting on a lottery ticket with that 2nd pick and cashed it out on a single RB.
Good post Aces..
Quote:
In comment 15005219 Ned In Atlanta said:
Quote:
In comment 15005146 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
so losing today is indicative of the GM??
I had you and Dep arguing with me that trading for Russell Wilson for three firsts made no sense because we still had Eli. You’re the last person on this board who I want to hear defend dave Gettleman
He’s the worst poster on this board. There’s an entire thread about him. No reason to argue with him. He’ll revert back into hiding just like last year (and the past 4 weeks)
He is also one of the biggest liar's on this board. I recall I said I thought Sam Darnold was going to be a good QB. He changed what I said to suggests I said Darnold was going to be elite/or generational. He'll weasel anything you say so he can protect DG.
For those of us who hated DG's outlook of trying to win right away-- he throws insults at the posters. OFC if other posters that defend DG and say he was trying to win in year 1, FMIC doesn't care because those posts are defending DG.
When you criticized the Barkley pick - - what does he do? He throws insults.
I recall the poster McL creating a thread with links why he thought the OLINE was os poor last year-- and what does FMIC do? He continually went after MCL with insults.
With this guy-- it's "defend DG at all costs."
Ironically, several posts earlier hes now asking folks to produce evidence of his defense of DG. It's like asking us to produce evidence that the Pope is Catholic...
Quote:
In comment 15005219 Ned In Atlanta said:
Quote:
In comment 15005146 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
so losing today is indicative of the GM??
I had you and Dep arguing with me that trading for Russell Wilson for three firsts made no sense because we still had Eli. You’re the last person on this board who I want to hear defend dave Gettleman
He’s the worst poster on this board. There’s an entire thread about him. No reason to argue with him. He’ll revert back into hiding just like last year (and the past 4 weeks)
He is also one of the biggest liar's on this board. I recall I said I thought Sam Darnold was going to be a good QB. He changed what I said to suggests I said Darnold was going to be elite/or generational. He'll weasel anything you say so he can protect DG.
For those of us who hated DG's outlook of trying to win right away-- he throws insults at the posters. OFC if other posters that defend DG and say he was trying to win in year 1, FMIC doesn't care because those posts are defending DG.
When you criticized the Barkley pick - - what does he do? He throws insults.
I recall the poster McL creating a thread with links why he thought the OLINE was os poor last year-- and what does FMIC do? He continually went after MCL with insults.
With this guy-- it's "defend DG at all costs."
The fact that he has the balls to double down on DGs awful resume is actually impressive.
If you're going to do that then step the fuck up and prove it! Otherwise, be a man and admit you're wrong. That is only the right thing to do.
Why should anyone do that??
You asked me to provide evidence of when I said that during Dg's 1st year I would have drafted gotten FA's Hubbard and Fulton then gone after SY's guy of Braden Smith. I finally found the posts I made and replied and then you say nothing.
What's the point with posters like you?? You wear your New York Giants skirt and no matter what it's "Yay Team!"
No one owes you nothing - especially a cheerleader of a fan. If you think so many are lying then go ahead and pout.
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote:
Upcoming post on DG.
Same. That should be a good read.
Quote:
In comment 15005390 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Upcoming post on DG.
Same. That should be a good read.
As a caveat, I had to use PFF rankings, which I don't love but they are the only tool to gauge player vs. player value. Reese was bad, but DG has been even worse, it's really sickening, but we're 0-5, so you know that. I should have it up tomorrow.
Looking forward to it. Thanks for taking the time to post it.
Quote:
where I've defended Gettleman
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's got to be the leading post for Post of the Year.
I had to read it at least 20X to make sure I wasn't misreading what he wrote.
So many terrible decisions and increasingly looks as though Jones is JAG. At least 3 games in the final drive to win or tie and we can’t make the play. As much as I want to like this kid to succeed, I’m afraid he’s not the guy.
The faster he is fired the better.
Quote:
A bunch of you have made claims about FMiC's posting and he asked for evidence of that.
If you're going to do that then step the fuck up and prove it! Otherwise, be a man and admit you're wrong. That is only the right thing to do.
Why should anyone do that??
You asked me to provide evidence of when I said that during Dg's 1st year I would have drafted gotten FA's Hubbard and Fulton then gone after SY's guy of Braden Smith. I finally found the posts I made and replied and then you say nothing.
What's the point with posters like you?? You wear your New York Giants skirt and no matter what it's "Yay Team!"
No one owes you nothing - especially a cheerleader of a fan. If you think so many are lying then go ahead and pout.
Because in any Message Board if you make a claim about someone else you should at least be able to back it up.
Why is that a questionable request?
Quote:
A bunch of you have made claims about FMiC's posting and he asked for evidence of that.
If you're going to do that then step the fuck up and prove it! Otherwise, be a man and admit you're wrong. That is only the right thing to do.
Why should anyone do that??
You asked me to provide evidence of when I said that during Dg's 1st year I would have drafted gotten FA's Hubbard and Fulton then gone after SY's guy of Braden Smith. I finally found the posts I made and replied and then you say nothing.
What's the point with posters like you?? You wear your New York Giants skirt and no matter what it's "Yay Team!"
No one owes you nothing - especially a cheerleader of a fan. If you think so many are lying then go ahead and pout.
I may wear my Giants "Skirt" but at least I don't have sand in my Vagina like you.
Inform us all what would you have done to make a better winning percentage?
Should be easy if I'm a huge supporter of his, right?
What I've done is taken people to task who say he's unqualified to be a GM, has always sucked as a GM, or the analytics schmucks who claim that he shuns analytics.
So he's the challenge - produce posts where I talk about Gettleman being a very good or great GM here in NY. Really shouldn't be too hard, right?
Yo...Les in TO. How goes it?
Quote:
His winning percentage with the Giants is worse than Matt Millen. Let that sink in
Inform us all what would you have done to make a better winning percentage?
Why do you feel the need to defend him? The Millen stat is very eye opening. He’s had all the resources in the world and top 6 picks for three years and were the worst team in the league !
Should be easy if I'm a huge supporter of his, right?
What I've done is taken people to task who say he's unqualified to be a GM, has always sucked as a GM, or the analytics schmucks who claim that he shuns analytics.
So he's the challenge - produce posts where I talk about Gettleman being a very good or great GM here in NY. Really shouldn't be too hard, right?
<<Sigh>> the beat goes on...
Quote:
In comment 15005346 montanagiant said:
Quote:
A bunch of you have made claims about FMiC's posting and he asked for evidence of that.
If you're going to do that then step the fuck up and prove it! Otherwise, be a man and admit you're wrong. That is only the right thing to do.
Why should anyone do that??
You asked me to provide evidence of when I said that during Dg's 1st year I would have drafted gotten FA's Hubbard and Fulton then gone after SY's guy of Braden Smith. I finally found the posts I made and replied and then you say nothing.
What's the point with posters like you?? You wear your New York Giants skirt and no matter what it's "Yay Team!"
No one owes you nothing - especially a cheerleader of a fan. If you think so many are lying then go ahead and pout.
Because in any Message Board if you make a claim about someone else you should at least be able to back it up.
Why is that a questionable request?
I went back on my time to find the post you asked me to prove - I replied and I sent it on the thread you asked. What did I get for it? Nothing. Which is fine but I did it as a courtesy and I got no reply.
Why is it unreasonable to believe that posters may feel that when they make a post they should feel trusted? You can choose to believe that poster or not.
You can call me a liar if you wish. I can care less. Me and you have a bad relationship. I'm sure there are some others on here too you have bad relationships with as I do. No offense - but why should I waste my valuable time to satisfy you? What does it get me to go back and look? Last time I did-- you said nothing and we just went right back on other threads ripping into one another.
For example on here there have ben several people here that have accused FMiC of being a DG defender. Every accuser is lying? They can't be trusted? If they believe their word is good -- why do they need to go back? This board is fun board to talk. You gotta go back and find links on everything that was said previously rather than just make your own decision if that poster is honest or not?
Quote:
very simple ask of shitbirds like giantstock or lax counsel, please produce a post where I've said Gettleman is a very good GM or has made great moves for us.
Should be easy if I'm a huge supporter of his, right?
What I've done is taken people to task who say he's unqualified to be a GM, has always sucked as a GM, or the analytics schmucks who claim that he shuns analytics.
So he's the challenge - produce posts where I talk about Gettleman being a very good or great GM here in NY. Really shouldn't be too hard, right?
<<Sigh>> the beat goes on...
And it will until you back up ridiculous claims. I haven't been on the board for 4 weeks?? Very simple request - but one you can't back up
Quote:
His winning percentage with the Giants is worse than Matt Millen. Let that sink in
Inform us all what would you have done to make a better winning percentage?
If this is all you have in your holster to defend Gettleman's regime, it might be time to sit a few threads out.
Quote:
In comment 15005563 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
very simple ask of shitbirds like giantstock or lax counsel, please produce a post where I've said Gettleman is a very good GM or has made great moves for us.
Should be easy if I'm a huge supporter of his, right?
What I've done is taken people to task who say he's unqualified to be a GM, has always sucked as a GM, or the analytics schmucks who claim that he shuns analytics.
So he's the challenge - produce posts where I talk about Gettleman being a very good or great GM here in NY. Really shouldn't be too hard, right?
<<Sigh>> the beat goes on...
And it will until you back up ridiculous claims. I haven't been on the board for 4 weeks?? Very simple request - but one you can't back up
Prove that you didn't...
Should be easy if I'm a huge supporter of his, right?
What I've done is taken people to task who say he's unqualified to be a GM, has always sucked as a GM, or the analytics schmucks who claim that he shuns analytics.
So he's the challenge - produce posts where I talk about Gettleman being a very good or great GM here in NY. Really shouldn't be too hard, right?
Please. Your play has essentially been this mantra - Gettleman did good work in Carolina, has some good offspring (Brandon Beane), did good work under Accorsi, and we should trust that will eventually convey to Jints Central.
Good luck spinning out of that...