Not here to get anybody worked up. I'll say upfront f there is one ray of light for me so far this season its the coaching. I see improvement, attempts at creativity, priorities set straight, long term view, all the things I measure coaching by are ticked with the exception of the record and I give them a complete pass this season as its an outlier in so many ways that hindered their ability to create positive impact.
Obviously being 0-5 is frustrating for anyone involved. I do think though that in the grand scheme of things the decision on Jones looming either this summer or next is crucial for the organisation's short and medium term future.
I see the following:
He's being asked to win in an almost unwinnable situation: No pre season in his second year (1st as full time starter). New coaching staff and system in his second year (1st full time starter). Coaching staff's priorities aren't his development per se, rather their own in their respective fields and taking a holistic team approach (contrary to Shurmur). Talent deficiencies across the board on offense (Bad to horrendous OL, no receivers, a blocking hole at TE, star RB out for the season after 75 min of play, mediocre at best replacements).
Additionally, the opposition had time now to study him and force him out of his comfort zone. He's not sneaking up on anyone like he has last year.
On the other hand, I also see: no improvement in ball security, actually deterioration as he seems to be more interception prone. Bad judgement on multiple situational occasions. bad (deteriorating) mechanics. No evidence of clutch gene.
I fear his potential will be destroyed by the circumstances and his reaction to them, and recovering from that (Drew Brees) is less probable than going downhill (David Carr).
Not sure how I slice it at this point (it has only been 5 games) but I find this to be one of the key topics to follow with this team as a lot is at stake here, and curious about your thoughts.
I do believe the OL is improving so lets see how Jones does at home this week. I have a feeling he does really well.
What we need to see by the end of the year is, does he have more than a firm grasp on the position with this staff tp be the guy that will lead this team to division titles and playoff runs. Will this guy be a championship QB? I believe he can be based on what we've seen. I believe that the new coaching staff and new system takes a bit of time.
That doesn't excuse the turnovers. Those will need to be corrected pretty much starting now or it's going to continue to be worrisome.
Jones looks like he has regressed. Idk if its the system, O line, limited time in the off season, or what, but he doesnt look good.
What we need to see by the end of the year is, does he have more than a firm grasp on the position with this staff tp be the guy that will lead this team to division titles and playoff runs. Will this guy be a championship QB? I believe he can be based on what we've seen. I believe that the new coaching staff and new system takes a bit of time.
That doesn't excuse the turnovers. Those will need to be corrected pretty much starting now or it's going to continue to be worrisome.
I would like to bring a little clarity to the following statement of yours:
"That doesn't excuse the turnovers. Those will need to be corrected pretty much starting now or it's going to continue to be worrisome."
It will be a lot more than "worrisome." Daniel Jones will become either a permanent clip-board holder (for some other team), or more likely out of football altogether.
So, is he a victim of circumstance? Or is it something deeper. Can you project out top 10 qb characteristics with Jones? What does he do really well? These are important considerations simply because you generally need top qb play to have a chance in any given year and certainly to maintain perennial contention. Others have articulated it very well, a qb is not 1/11th of your offense in this league, they are the driving force.
As a side note, I do not think the Giants will get the first pick this year. If they do, I really believe Lawrence will be the pick, but cannot see them drafting that high. So, Jones will get another year to show he is a top 10 qb. Even if he displays mediocre play, you likely still need to move on from him before a second contract.
So, is he a victim of circumstance? Or is it something deeper. Can you project out top 10 qb characteristics with Jones? What does he do really well? These are important considerations simply because you generally need top qb play to have a chance in any given year and certainly to maintain perennial contention. Others have articulated it very well, a qb is not 1/11th of your offense in this league, they are the driving force.
As a side note, I do not think the Giants will get the first pick this year. If they do, I really believe Lawrence will be the pick, but cannot see them drafting that high. So, Jones will get another year to show he is a top 10 qb. Even if he displays mediocre play, you likely still need to move on from him before a second contract.
well if the Giants pick in the top 5 there will be two other QBs to consider. I don;t see any chance Jones will develop into a top-10 QB. Eli was barely a top-10 QB for most of his career. The Giants will need to make the evaluation, whoever the next GM is in concert with Judge. If we pick first it is obvious we will select Lawrence. If we pick 2-5 they will need to decide of Fields and/or Lance is a better option.
There are a lot of teams that may be looking to go in a new direction at QB in 2021:
Saints
Falcons
Buccaneers
Patriots
Jets
Steelers
Colts
Jaguars
Raiders
Broncos
It's a seller's market. Do you think the Giants get a single call offering them a first round pick + more for Jones? Has he augmented his value since he came into the league?
And if he hasn't, what's his value? If you were the GM of the Colts would you offer a second rounder to the Giants so you could put your talented team in Jones's hands?
There are a lot of teams that may be looking to go in a new direction at QB in 2021:
Saints
Falcons
Buccaneers
Patriots
Jets
Steelers
Colts
Jaguars
Raiders
Broncos
It's a seller's market. Do you think the Giants get a single call offering them a first round pick + more for Jones? Has he augmented his value since he came into the league?
And if he hasn't, what's his value? If you were the GM of the Colts would you offer a second rounder to the Giants so you could put your talented team in Jones's hands?
Nobody is giving a first for Jones. I don't think most had a first round grade on him when he was drafted. Of course if a team sees something in him, you never know maybe he can fetch a 2nd. But I think in a vacuum we will get little in return. I doubt even a 4th round pick, unless there is some team that sees something.
There are a lot of teams that may be looking to go in a new direction at QB in 2021:
Saints
Falcons
Buccaneers
Patriots
Jets
Steelers
Colts
Jaguars
Raiders
Broncos
It's a seller's market. Do you think the Giants get a single call offering them a first round pick + more for Jones? Has he augmented his value since he came into the league?
And if he hasn't, what's his value? If you were the GM of the Colts would you offer a second rounder to the Giants so you could put your talented team in Jones's hands?
The turnovers alone would cancel out a 1st round pick. The "no practice" argument doesn't hold water...look at Herbert. If you can play, you can play.
Jones is durable but the best I see a team giving up is a 3rd or 4th for him. I never see him being a top 5-8 QB in the NFL. He's Kirk Cousins on his best day...good but too many stupid decisions and turnovers to be great.
Fast forward to the NFL and the NY Football Giants where he's playing behind an OL in transition and his resources at WR are limited.
Sure would be nice to see what he's really capable of with some protection and weapons at his disposal.
Side note, I'm not saying Jones is or will be another Eli, but maybe let things play out for the rest of the year at the very least? I get it, I'm just as frustrated as anyone here for the lousy play over the last 8 years, minus 2016, but I would say to have a little patience with Jones at the very least...not the organization, but Jones.
Lets consider the trade value of the other 10 offensive starters. What would they garner on the open market? In my opinion outside of Slayton pretty much nothing.
Fast forward to the NFL and the NY Football Giants where he's playing behind an OL in transition and his resources at WR are limited.
Sure would be nice to see what he's really capable of with some protection and weapons at his disposal.
It would also be nice to see Jones have a clean game once in awhile as well. As soon as fumbled, and the Cowboys
picked it up and returned it for a TD, well I said they will find a way to lose again...and they did.
On the Giants last drive, he was running for his life back there in the two minute drill. He needs some help from that OL around here.
Lets consider the trade value of the other 10 offensive starters. What would they garner on the open market? In my opinion outside of Slayton pretty much nothing.
I agree the team surrounding him is poor. But is he doing anything to elevate them at all?
Is his pocket presence making the OL's life easier? No.
Is his decision making and locking on his first receiver making his WR's lives easier? No.
Is his poor ball security making the defense's life easier? No.
He was drafted to elevate the play of those around him. No one is suggesting he should have them at 5-0 right now. But be objective and use your eyes; if you do you know he's a big part of the problem.
At this point--and it is still early-- there is nothing about Jones that suggests elite and glimpses that he could be a solid and reliable starter for years to come or a career backup. Do you risk losing out on Lawrence and take a chance? It's a question I never thought that the Giants would have to answer but it becomes increasingly possible with every overthrow, fumble, interception etc.
Quote:
I try to stay emotionally detached on Jones we will see what we see. But, I think folks don't really grasp what a bad cast surrounds him.
Lets consider the trade value of the other 10 offensive starters. What would they garner on the open market? In my opinion outside of Slayton pretty much nothing.
I agree the team surrounding him is poor. But is he doing anything to elevate them at all?
Is his pocket presence making the OL's life easier? No.
Is his decision making and locking on his first receiver making his WR's lives easier? No.
Is his poor ball security making the defense's life easier? No.
He was drafted to elevate the play of those around him. No one is suggesting he should have them at 5-0 right now. But be objective and use your eyes; if you do you know he's a big part of the problem.
I think there are plenty of circumstances surrounding Jones that logic would lead against definitively saying he can't be the guy.
Ultimately he might not be, but I don't see how we know that now given all the factors at play.
Everything with Jones boils down to his turnovers. If he corrects it he's got a real chance. If not, he doesn't. I know yesterday I came away encouraged after hearing Romo's thoughts on him.
We'll see.
Quote:
The Giants drafted Jones #6 overall in the 2019 draft. If they put him up on the trade market today what kind of offers would they receive?
There are a lot of teams that may be looking to go in a new direction at QB in 2021:
Saints
Falcons
Buccaneers
Patriots
Jets
Steelers
Colts
Jaguars
Raiders
Broncos
It's a seller's market. Do you think the Giants get a single call offering them a first round pick + more for Jones? Has he augmented his value since he came into the league?
And if he hasn't, what's his value? If you were the GM of the Colts would you offer a second rounder to the Giants so you could put your talented team in Jones's hands?
Nobody is giving a first for Jones. I don't think most had a first round grade on him when he was drafted. Of course if a team sees something in him, you never know maybe he can fetch a 2nd. But I think in a vacuum we will get little in return. I doubt even a 4th round pick, unless there is some team that sees something.
Rosen got a 2nd and a 5th.
I think we'd get more for Jones than WTF will get for Haskins.
Sophomore season with new coach and Covid, maybe not that surprising
That's a great talking point but where are all these rookie QBs lifting terrible teams in year one?
Examples?
Quote:
Who can elevate those around him, even if there are deficiencies on offense. No evidence of that yet. I am pretty down on him right now. The TOs are really concerning.
That's a great talking point but where are all these rookie QBs lifting terrible teams in year one?
Examples?
Lamar Jackson took a dead Ravens team to the playoffs.
Daniel Jones is not a rookie. He's a second year player. The last two MVPs (Mahomes and Jackson) were second year players.
Quote:
In comment 15006629 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Who can elevate those around him, even if there are deficiencies on offense. No evidence of that yet. I am pretty down on him right now. The TOs are really concerning.
That's a great talking point but where are all these rookie QBs lifting terrible teams in year one?
Examples?
Lamar Jackson took a dead Ravens team to the playoffs.
Daniel Jones is not a rookie. He's a second year player. The last two MVPs (Mahomes and Jackson) were second year players.
Give me a break.
The Ravens have been consistently good under Harbaugh. The "dead" team you speak of just barely missed going to the playoffs (for the 3rd consecutive season) in the final minutes of the final week of the season.
Does that sound like NYG recently?
Mahomes doesn't do anything to bolster your argument. The Chiefs have been largely successful under Andy Reid, had/have dynamic weapons all over the field and plus he sat a year.
These are ridiculous comparisons.
Well honestly you tried to prove a point, didn’t, and now you’ve made a separate point.
Anyway, saying Lamar Jackson went to a “dead” Ravens is about as accurate as saying Jones is sucking on a “stacked” Giants team.
Jones is making some plays, missing some, and being put in an impossible situation due to lousy line play on others.
Very good point. You made me look this up....Eli’s first full 3 years:
2005: 17 int....9 fumbles
2006: 18 int....9 fumbles
2007: 20 int......13 fumbles
Like you said, no one cares because all they want to talk about in DJ’s first 16 games as a pro. Not to mention he had no real preseason and had to learn a totally new system with totally new coaches....with no preseason to work it out.
X100
Garrett's route concerts are a joke. If you can get your hands on some all 22 take a look.
It was rumored here at the time of the hire the JG was pushed on to Judge by Mara. If so I wouldnt be surprised if he gets canned mid season.
Quote:
The Giants drafted Jones #6 overall in the 2019 draft. If they put him up on the trade market today what kind of offers would they receive?
There are a lot of teams that may be looking to go in a new direction at QB in 2021:
Saints
Falcons
Buccaneers
Patriots
Jets
Steelers
Colts
Jaguars
Raiders
Broncos
It's a seller's market. Do you think the Giants get a single call offering them a first round pick + more for Jones? Has he augmented his value since he came into the league?
And if he hasn't, what's his value? If you were the GM of the Colts would you offer a second rounder to the Giants so you could put your talented team in Jones's hands?
Nobody is giving a first for Jones. I don't think most had a first round grade on him when he was drafted. Of course if a team sees something in him, you never know maybe he can fetch a 2nd. But I think in a vacuum we will get little in return. I doubt even a 4th round pick, unless there is some team that sees something.
Your handle says that you are overcompensating for something, possibly several things. Somewhere along the line somebody whom you sought the approval of or wanted to win the affections of obviously gave up on you. You are taking out your frustrations on Daniel Jones. Please forgive yourself and give the guy a chance. You are being too hard on yourself and it reflects on how you speak about our young QB.
Quote:
In comment 15006528 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The Giants drafted Jones #6 overall in the 2019 draft. If they put him up on the trade market today what kind of offers would they receive?
There are a lot of teams that may be looking to go in a new direction at QB in 2021:
Saints
Falcons
Buccaneers
Patriots
Jets
Steelers
Colts
Jaguars
Raiders
Broncos
It's a seller's market. Do you think the Giants get a single call offering them a first round pick + more for Jones? Has he augmented his value since he came into the league?
And if he hasn't, what's his value? If you were the GM of the Colts would you offer a second rounder to the Giants so you could put your talented team in Jones's hands?
Nobody is giving a first for Jones. I don't think most had a first round grade on him when he was drafted. Of course if a team sees something in him, you never know maybe he can fetch a 2nd. But I think in a vacuum we will get little in return. I doubt even a 4th round pick, unless there is some team that sees something.
Your handle says that you are overcompensating for something, possibly several things. Somewhere along the line somebody whom you sought the approval of or wanted to win the affections of obviously gave up on you. You are taking out your frustrations on Daniel Jones. Please forgive yourself and give the guy a chance. You are being too hard on yourself and it reflects on how you speak about our young QB.
What a stupid post and weak ass attempt at a jab. Idk about you, but when I see the handle producer, my brain doesn't go to "overcompensating". It's not like a middle aged man driving a Hummer in 2005.
Eli tunred the ball over. he was also a top 5 passer early in his career in terms of yards and TDs.
He also played great teams and nearly won and played great teams and did win. He had better coaching ; better receivers. Look at Eli on some of the shit teams he played on. Aside from rookie season Barkley he was obviously the best player on that team. Eli just looked good. Eli made plays. I don't know if it is coaches or what trying to control Jones ' turnovers but he just looks like a mediocre back-up in there. Heck Mullens and Andy Dalton looked better than him.
Quote:
In comment 15006534 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15006528 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The Giants drafted Jones #6 overall in the 2019 draft. If they put him up on the trade market today what kind of offers would they receive?
There are a lot of teams that may be looking to go in a new direction at QB in 2021:
Saints
Falcons
Buccaneers
Patriots
Jets
Steelers
Colts
Jaguars
Raiders
Broncos
It's a seller's market. Do you think the Giants get a single call offering them a first round pick + more for Jones? Has he augmented his value since he came into the league?
And if he hasn't, what's his value? If you were the GM of the Colts would you offer a second rounder to the Giants so you could put your talented team in Jones's hands?
Nobody is giving a first for Jones. I don't think most had a first round grade on him when he was drafted. Of course if a team sees something in him, you never know maybe he can fetch a 2nd. But I think in a vacuum we will get little in return. I doubt even a 4th round pick, unless there is some team that sees something.
Your handle says that you are overcompensating for something, possibly several things. Somewhere along the line somebody whom you sought the approval of or wanted to win the affections of obviously gave up on you. You are taking out your frustrations on Daniel Jones. Please forgive yourself and give the guy a chance. You are being too hard on yourself and it reflects on how you speak about our young QB.
Or, like, he could be a producer in media (TV producer, theater producer, music producer [which is totally different from the above], etc etc)
What a stupid post and weak ass attempt at a jab. Idk about you, but when I see the handle producer, my brain doesn't go to "overcompensating". It's not like a middle aged man driving a Hummer in 2005.
Bingo, Sonic ;)
Everybody's talking 'bout the stormy weather
And what's a man do to but work out whether it's true?
Looking for a man with a focus and a temper
Who can open up a map and see between one and two
Time to get it
Before you let it get to you
Here he comes now
Stick to your guns and let him through
And everybody's coming from their winter vacation
Taking in the sun in a exaltation to you
You come running…