|
|
|
| Quote: |
| By winning his fourth NBA title, LeBron James has not only just leaped into history, he’s also leaped over Michael Jordan in the heated, ongoing debate over which player is greatest. James scored 28 points and had a triple-double Sunday to lead the Los Angeles Lakers to the franchise’s 17th NBA title. There has not been another NBA superstar to lead three different teams to a championship: not Jordan, not Magic Johnson, not Kobe Bryant. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar led the Milwaukee Bucks to a title and then helped the Lakers win five, but no one has matched James. Indeed, the most important element in leapfrogging James over Jordan is what James has done off the court. What James has accomplished outside of basketball has elevated his stature in the pantheon of Black athlete activists. |
Ok fine. But in the debate of who is the greatest basketball player of all time why is this play ever brought up? I can say without question that James' block of Iguodala is far more historic than this unnecessary reverse layup.
I didn't bring the play up, Magic Johnson did (four days ago on a company meeting we had) as partial evidence of some of things Jordan was able to do on a basketball court that in Magic's opinion (which is probably more relevant than most of ours) helped explain that to him MJ is the GOAT and not LeBron.
YouTube - ( New Window )
Bullshit. You are only saying this because you want this to be true. LeBron would dominate in the 80's just like Jordan would be a dominant player in today's game. As I have already stated, we are splitting hairs in this discussion. They are the greatest 2 players that have ever lived.
I want you to think hard about what you posted. Do you really think that LeBron at his size and speed would have failed in the 80's? The big centers in that era would have shit their pants with him driving to the basket.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence you used two WHITE players to make your point. I don’t think I’m going to go out on a limb here when I assume you have an issue white players in general. This place never ceases to amaze me.
Quote:
I don’t think it’s a coincidence you used two WHITE players to make your point. I don’t think I’m going to go out on a limb here when I assume you have an issue white players in general. This place never ceases to amaze me.
I mean... Yes? They have four inch verticals. Go sell insurance or something.
Quote:
lane to the hoop, but at the last minute Perkins &, to a smaller degree, A.C. Green, clog it up &-for a split second-it looks like Perkins is going to go straight up.
Ok fine. But in the debate of who is the greatest basketball player of all time why is this play ever brought up? I can say without question that James' block of Iguodala is far more historic than this unnecessary reverse layup.
The lay-up itself is unnecessary but like many things, the context of it has kind of been lost in history.
Magic Johnson had won the MVP award in '89 and '90. The Lakers were actually favored entering in the '91 Finals. Although MJ was the '91 MVP and the most talented player alive, the league was still going through Magic Johnson since the Pistons had declined.
The Lakers took Game 1, including a missed GW-shot by MJ at the end. So down 0-1, being the underdog, with Magic Johnson still looking like "the man"... there were some doubts about Chicago being able to win the series.
MJ came back to utterly dominate Game 2 (15-18 FGs, 13 assists, 33 points) and had a stretch where he made 13 consecutive Field Goals. The "lay-up" was the 13th of the 13 straight field goals. The Bulls went on to win the rest of the games in the series to beat the Lakers in 5 (although the Bulls lucked out because Worthy and Scott both were hurt during the Finals)
The "lay-up" isn't simply a highlight because of the athleticism involved. It's a highlight because it represents the exact moment when MJ took control of the league from Magic and started the Bulls' reign of dominance over the sport.
Also, I hate slow motion highlights for sports. I respect the hell out of NFL Films but give me regular speed highlights of plays. This MJ layup looks so much more impressive in real-time imo.
Quote:
In comment 15010598 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I don’t think it’s a coincidence you used two WHITE players to make your point. I don’t think I’m going to go out on a limb here when I assume you have an issue white players in general. This place never ceases to amaze me.
I mean... Yes? They have four inch verticals. Go sell insurance or something.
See? This is what these “movements” are doing to this generation. It’s normalizing this behavior. Shaking my damn head. ALM.
He had nice things to say about LeBron, but I feel like as a Lakers guy and someone who was great in their own right, Magic's opinion matters - more than Isaiah who does have an axe to grind. but that could be my own confirmation bias too.
But as others have said this discussion is kind of silly when you're talking 1 and 1a. It's not a slight to either player IMO to pick one over the other.
It reminds me of the Brady vs Peyton battles I'd have with my Patriots fan friends. Now I think brady wins easily, but in the mid to later 00's a strong case could be made for Peyton, but when you had Peyton over Brady it's like you were calling their baby ugly. They were so offended and would bring up stuff like "plays in a dome", "surrounded by hall of famers", etc.
Are you joking? I hate the flopping and complaining but the man is a chiseled 6’9 260 pounds. Who exactly from the 80s is covering him? He’s also an incredibly physical player who’s been injured once.
The slander against Lebron is very revealing of the basketball acumen on this site.
You do realize who else was on that Bucks team, right?
Yeah that is true. Kobe was far more similar to Jordan than LeBron in terms of mentality. But that mentality drained Jordan. I have seen people talk about in this thread that Jordan would have won 8 straight titles had he not retired to play baseball. We all watched The Last Dance. Jordan was gassed after his first 3-peat.
Yet we actually saw LeBron go to 8 straight NBA finals, with two different teams no less. It is not his fault that he ran into a dynasty Warriors team.
Yeah that is true. Kobe was far more similar to Jordan than LeBron in terms of mentality. But that mentality drained Jordan. I have seen people talk about in this thread that Jordan would have won 8 straight titles had he not retired to play baseball. We all watched The Last Dance. Jordan was gassed after his first 3-peat.
Yet we actually saw LeBron go to 8 straight NBA finals, with two different teams no less. It is not his fault that he ran into a dynasty Warriors team.
A few comments on this. Jordan been beaten up for three consecutive years by the Pistons, who could have easily been a three peat winner themselves if Thomas didn't hurt his ankle in the '88 finals versus the Lakers in G6. So that was a HUGE hurdle to get over for him. LeBron faced nothing like that - ever.
Furthermore, Jordan's barometer back then was measuring himself versus Magic and Bird. And when he did something that neither ever did with the three-peat he was definitely burned out...
Quote:
Yeah that is true. Kobe was far more similar to Jordan than LeBron in terms of mentality. But that mentality drained Jordan. I have seen people talk about in this thread that Jordan would have won 8 straight titles had he not retired to play baseball. We all watched The Last Dance. Jordan was gassed after his first 3-peat.
Yet we actually saw LeBron go to 8 straight NBA finals, with two different teams no less. It is not his fault that he ran into a dynasty Warriors team.
A few comments on this. Jordan been beaten up for three consecutive years by the Pistons, who could have easily been a three peat winner themselves if Thomas didn't hurt his ankle in the '88 finals versus the Lakers in G6. So that was a HUGE hurdle to get over for him. LeBron faced nothing like that - ever.
Ever? You don't think James having to face the Warriors was as big a challenge as the Bad Boys were for Jordan?
Ever? You don't think James having to face the Warriors was as big a challenge as the Bad Boys were for Jordan?
I mean to just get to the Finals out of the East.
Personally, I think the Pistons would comfortably handle the Warriors, especially the rules of the game in the '80s. But even today's game, I think the Pistons were athletic and gifted enough to adapt. Thomas and Dumars could definitely match up with Curry and Thompson.
Agreed. Although I do think a less rusty Jordan, when he came back in '95, gets by the Magic. He made some uncharacteristic mistakes down the stretch in several games of that series...
So it may have been 7 out of 8 if Jordan come back earlier '94/'95 season...
Quote:
Ever? You don't think James having to face the Warriors was as big a challenge as the Bad Boys were for Jordan?
I mean to just get to the Finals out of the East.
Personally, I think the Pistons would comfortably handle the Warriors, especially the rules of the game in the '80s. But even today's game, I think the Pistons were athletic and gifted enough to adapt. Thomas and Dumars could definitely match up with Curry and Thompson.
But again we are just splitting hairs. No doubt James had the easier road to the finals in the EC. But James has had much harder competition in the finals. Not one but 2 dynasties. I can play that game too. Jordan's Bulls would have had no chance against the Warriors after they added Durant. No one could have beaten that team. James also lost to them in '15 with Irving and Love out with injuries. Do the Bulls beat them without Pippen and Rodman? Not likely.
Nick Anderson missing 4 straight FTs to clinch Game 1 didn't help.
Quote:
I'm amazed the Rockets swept that Magic team in '95. I was convinced the Magic would win in 5.
Nick Anderson missing 4 straight FTs to clinch Game 1 didn't help.
Good point. That was a huge turning point...
But again we are just splitting hairs. No doubt James had the easier road to the finals in the EC. But James has had much harder competition in the finals. Not one but 2 dynasties. I can play that game too. Jordan's Bulls would have had no chance against the Warriors after they added Durant. No one could have beaten that team. James also lost to them in '15 with Irving and Love out with injuries. Do the Bulls beat them without Pippen and Rodman? Not likely.
No chance? Really? The Bulls had four high level, elite defenders - Jordan, Pippen, Harper, and Rodman. How many did the Warriors have? Who would Curry guard? And who would guard Jordan?
Because I know Pippen or Rodman can switch up on Durant to make things at least uncomfortable. And I know Jordan, Pippen and Harper can match-up and switch on Curry and Thompson- no problem.
Quote:
Ever? You don't think James having to face the Warriors was as big a challenge as the Bad Boys were for Jordan?
I mean to just get to the Finals out of the East.
Personally, I think the Pistons would comfortably handle the Warriors, especially the rules of the game in the '80s. But even today's game, I think the Pistons were athletic and gifted enough to adapt. Thomas and Dumars could definitely match up with Curry and Thompson.
I have a lot of respect for those Pistons teams. But “comfortably handle”? I don’t care what rules you put in place- the Warriors would be massive favorites against the Bad Boys.
I have a lot of respect for those Pistons teams. But “comfortably handle”? I don’t care what rules you put in place- the Warriors would be massive favorites against the Bad Boys.
That team had three HoFamers - Dumars, Thomas, and Rodman. That is an all-time great back court. I really don't like defending them, because they were a very dirty team, but they were a great collection of players who played hard both ways.
Not sure how old you are, but that team was a GREAT perimeter defensive team. All time...
Quote:
But again we are just splitting hairs. No doubt James had the easier road to the finals in the EC. But James has had much harder competition in the finals. Not one but 2 dynasties. I can play that game too. Jordan's Bulls would have had no chance against the Warriors after they added Durant. No one could have beaten that team. James also lost to them in '15 with Irving and Love out with injuries. Do the Bulls beat them without Pippen and Rodman? Not likely.
No chance? Really? The Bulls had four high level, elite defenders - Jordan, Pippen, Harper, and Rodman. How many did the Warriors have? Who would Curry guard? And who would guard Jordan?
Because I know Pippen or Rodman can switch up on Durant to make things at least uncomfortable. And I know Jordan, Pippen and Harper can match-up and switch on Curry and Thompson- no problem.
Yes. No chance. It doesn't matter if you put it in the hand-checking era or not. Those Warriors teams were the greatest 3 point shooting teams of all time. And that will always outlast Jordan's mid range jumper or James driving to the basket.
The 90s bulls were great defensive teams. That would not stop a wide open 3 point shot.
Quote:
I have a lot of respect for those Pistons teams. But “comfortably handle”? I don’t care what rules you put in place- the Warriors would be massive favorites against the Bad Boys.
That team had three HoFamers - Dumars, Thomas, and Rodman. That is an all-time great back court. I really don't like defending them, because they were a very dirty team, but they were a great collection of players who played hard both ways.
Not sure how old you are, but that team was a GREAT perimeter defensive team. All time...
And how about the offensive end?
Did you watch those Warriors teams? You think they “comfortably handle” the 2018 Warriors? Doubt they take 1 game in a series.
Yes. No chance. It doesn't matter if you put it in the hand-checking era or not. Those Warriors teams were the greatest 3 point shooting teams of all time. And that will always outlast Jordan's mid range jumper or James driving to the basket.
The 90s bulls were great defensive teams. That would not stop a wide open 3 point shot.
I couldn't disagree more, but I respect your opinion. I have zero doubt Dumars and Thomas could have expanded their range and created defensive disruption. Curry can't guard anyone on that Piston team. Do you want to get into a bench comparison?
And how about the offensive end?
Did you watch those Warriors teams? You think they “comfortably handle” the 2018 Warriors? Doubt they take 1 game in a series.
What about it the offensive end? Jordan is the greatest offensive player ever and would have no problem scoring.
And the Bulls - again - could throw enough size and prowess to make Curry uncomfortable. Harper, Jordan and Pippen were great on ball defenders.
Jordan has even said that Harper was one of his most difficult defenders to deal with when Harp was in Cleveland...
It was LT, and there isn't anyone else in the picture, really. And its likely there never will be...
It was LT, and there isn't anyone else in the picture, really. And its likely there never will be...
I agree LT was the best defender I ever saw. I never saw guys like Ditka, Deacon Jones, etc, but Reggie White and Ronnie Lott was...
Quote:
Yes. No chance. It doesn't matter if you put it in the hand-checking era or not. Those Warriors teams were the greatest 3 point shooting teams of all time. And that will always outlast Jordan's mid range jumper or James driving to the basket.
The 90s bulls were great defensive teams. That would not stop a wide open 3 point shot.
I couldn't disagree more, but I respect your opinion. I have zero doubt Dumars and Thomas could have expanded their range and created defensive disruption. Curry can't guard anyone on that Piston team. Do you want to get into a bench comparison?
Yes please. Let's keep this going. I know it is hard to argue against the 2 greatest players ever but those Warriors teams were unstoppable. So I definitely want to hear your argument. I am not sure how anyone, could defend them. The NBA has changed because shocker, the players all realized that 3 points is far more valuable than 2. And the greatest 3 point shooting backcourt of all time added the 2nd best player in the NBA to their roster. So yes, I can say that the 90s Bulls would have no shot.
However, if Jordan played today, he would have adapted and become a dominant 3 point shooter. But as we have the rosters today, no, the Bulls would have had no chance at beating the '18 Warriors.
- 96 Bulls vs 2018 Warriors is a different story. I’m taking the Bulls in 7 in a very close series.
Quote:
debate is that, in contrast, there is no debate about who was the greatest NFL defensive player of all time.
It was LT, and there isn't anyone else in the picture, really. And its likely there never will be...
I agree LT was the best defender I ever saw. I never saw guys like Ditka, Deacon Jones, etc, but Reggie White and Ronnie Lott was...
Don't know why this got caught off, but should say...were great, great defenders, too.
Yes please. Let's keep this going. I know it is hard to argue against the 2 greatest players ever but those Warriors teams were unstoppable. So I definitely want to hear your argument. I am not sure how anyone, could defend them. The NBA has changed because shocker, the players all realized that 3 points is far more valuable than 2. And the greatest 3 point shooting backcourt of all time added the 2nd best player in the NBA to their roster. So yes, I can say that the 90s Bulls would have no shot.
However, if Jordan played today, he would have adapted and become a dominant 3 point shooter. But as we have the rosters today, no, the Bulls would have had no chance at beating the '18 Warriors.
When you win 6 titles in 8 years - like the Bulls did - but you say they would have "no chance" despite having the greatest player ever and one of the greatest "Robins" ever it's hard to have a rational discussion.
Just to add another wrinkle, ANY of the Lakers and Celtics teams of the '80s beat the Warriors over a seven games series, too. Those teams were epic. But they weren't nearly as good defensively as the Bulls...
I am really not trying to argue too much here, and I really like you as a poster. I am just pointing out that for 2 years we saw an unstoppable 3 point shooting team that could only ever be outmatched by a better 3 point shooting team. Jordan and James never had such a team.
But I firmly believe those Bulls teams, either of the three peat versions, had enough defensive firepower to wear Curry down offensively. And expose him on the defensive end.
Look, IMV, Jordan is the ultimate X factor in this because I know the Warriors would have no answer for him. He'd put so much pressure on them defensively that I think they would ultimately crack having to deal with his relentlessness. Simply put, he was the greatest big moment player I have ever seen.
Can you imagine if Jordan had been able to recruit the top players in the league to play for the Bulls?
He'd have won 9 straight titles and 9 straight MVPs.
Lebron is top 10 all time but the era he plays in, for me, limits how high up the list he can rank.
He played before offensive fouls and palming the ball instead of dribbling became extinct, thanks largely to the promotional protection of MJ.
But previously illegal spectacularly athletic drives to the basket was the juice the NBA needed to become more marketable.
He played before offensive fouls and palming the ball instead of dribbling became extinct, thanks largely to the promotional protection of MJ.
But previously illegal spectacularly athletic drives to the basket was the juice the NBA needed to become more marketable.
I do think that LeBron is much more the evolutionary Oscar - even the personalities are similar. Players who had all the tools and could carry the game in any way needed.
LeBron is very much a super-sized, super-athletic Oscar.
My point was that they were so unbelievably great from 3 that the only way to beat them was to shoot better from 3, and the Bulls did not have that firepower. You are right, the Warriors would have had no answer for Jordan, but why would they need one? For those 2 years the only team that ever came close to beating them were the Harden/Paul Rockets. Another great 3 point shooting team.
Also yes, the Bulls were great, great defensive teams. But how do you wear down guys standing wide open in the corner nailing 3s? The Warriors also had a bunch of scrappy defenders like Green and Iguodala, who btw could also hit 3s.
It’s reasonable to assume the Jordan and Pippen guarding even just locking down Thompson changes that entire teams dynamic. No one on those GS teams were locking down Jordan, the X factor.
No idea who’d win but GS would need to be on fire from 3 to get it done, IMO.