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| By winning his fourth NBA title, LeBron James has not only just leaped into history, he’s also leaped over Michael Jordan in the heated, ongoing debate over which player is greatest. James scored 28 points and had a triple-double Sunday to lead the Los Angeles Lakers to the franchise’s 17th NBA title. There has not been another NBA superstar to lead three different teams to a championship: not Jordan, not Magic Johnson, not Kobe Bryant. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar led the Milwaukee Bucks to a title and then helped the Lakers win five, but no one has matched James. Indeed, the most important element in leapfrogging James over Jordan is what James has done off the court. What James has accomplished outside of basketball has elevated his stature in the pantheon of Black athlete activists. |
They've done very different things in their careers.
Wherever he goes.....the rings follow.
The Knicks should have handed him 40% ownership to sign him out of Cleveland or even Miami.....because he would have brought us championships and he would still be part of the team beyond his retirement as part owner.
But the answer is give me Lebron over anybody else who ever wore an NBA uniform!!!!
Wherever he goes.....other superstars and rings follow.
FIFY
The Cleveland championship Inwill give him credit for to take on that challenger, but I will never look past the jumping around to play gm and create your teams. The stat that he is the only player to win with 3 different teams to me is completely unimpressive. I don’t understand why we are celebrating that. I am more impressed with staying together and winning it.
Stop with the idiocy. Lebron is overrated in a league that no longer plays defense. Go watch the Bulls against the Pistons...Lebron lives in the world of touch fouls. Jordan would make Harden look like an average scorer in this era.
Where's LeBron off to next?
Seems like that lack of stability would be a negative, not a positive. IOW I think it's probably harder to remain a consistent winner than to win and leave and pick where you go next.
Seems like that lack of stability would be a negative, not a positive. IOW I think it's probably harder to remain a consistent winner than to win and leave and pick where you go next.
this. I'm so sick of the NBA and all these players coming together to make these super teams then bounce after a couple of seasons. I don't know why anyone would find this remotely interesting but thats just me.
Stop with the idiocy. Lebron is overrated in a league that no longer plays defense. Go watch the Bulls against the Pistons...Lebron lives in the world of touch fouls. Jordan would make Harden look like an average scorer in this era.
This is correct. If you watched Jordan's career, to say LeBron is greater is kind of laughable. What happened with LeBron last year? It's nice of Anthony Davis to carry LeBron to another title so people can make crazy comparisons to Jordan again. They are no more valid than they were before. Jordan would've swept that Heat team, too.
Kind of like Tom Brady and Joe Montana. Whoever you think is the best is the best.
Which team was better the 1974 Steelers or the 1999 Rams?
This is all subjective nonsense.
MJ still king!
Again im with Jordan, But if anyone carried the lakers to the title it was more lebron then AD. Swap Lebron and Paul George and that lakers team gets knocked out in the second round at best.
LeBron James can't sniff Jordan's jock as a competitor.
I'd say LeBron is the new Isiah Thomas after leaving the court early before a loss is even final. A real sportsman he is.
2 titles in Miami with that team don't impress anyone after boasting 6.
That title in Cleveland is nice but it was Kyrie who knocked down the big shot.
Now he's in LA manipulating the league in his favor once again. So he wins a title in a weird, broken up season.
Big deal.
Plus, I'm sure if they looked hard enough there was another player on championship teams for 3 franchises.
Jordan also wasn't a cornball
So that's 2 things right there in Jordan's favor
Jordan was gifted excellent organizational stability, had Phil Jackson and Scottie Pipppen for all six rings, and for both threepeats had perfect complements to build around him-- Grant, Paxson, Armstrong; and then Rodman, Harper, Kerr, and Kukoc.
LeBron didn't have that from his front office, and so he had to go out and do that himself. Some will call it ring chasing, others will say that he could have gone to other organizations to chase rings-- also, the same way LeBron moved around to various franchises is indicative of the era. Plenty of other stars were moving around to team up as well creating new challenges each season.
Another way to look at it is that LeBron and his achievements aren't tethered to any particular coach, system, or set of teammates. He has won in a variety of ways with a variety of players.
One of the hardest things to do in sports is win a title. The next hardest thing to do is win another one. Then comes a dynasty, and being undefeated in said dynasty.
The closest anyone came to matching the Jordan Bulls was the Golden State Warriors that won 3 of 5 in a row. Then what happens? Injuries, players leave to get paid, complacency set in, etc.
I'd love just one good reason why winning 4 titles with 3 different mercenary teams is better than going 6-0 across almost an entire decade of changes and challenges.
One of the hardest things to do in sports is win a title. The next hardest thing to do is win another one. Then comes a dynasty, and being undefeated in said dynasty.
The closest anyone came to matching the Jordan Bulls was the Golden State Warriors that won 3 of 5 in a row. Then what happens? Injuries, players leave to get paid, complacency set in, etc.
I'd love just one good reason why winning 4 titles with 3 different mercenary teams is better than going 6-0 across almost an entire decade of changes and challenges.
It's not better. Not at all.
And that Miami team is still the only team I can think of that actually had a championship type celebration before ever taking the court once.
People might not like the style of basketball in this era (more spacing, 3's, freedom of movement, and quickness, but it certainly isn't "gahbage." It's played at an exceptionally high level.
Again im with Jordan, But if anyone carried the lakers to the title it was more lebron then AD. Swap Lebron and Paul George and that lakers team gets knocked out in the second round at best.
It was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek, but seriously, AD is a great, great player. And yes, there is a lot of other talent on that Lakers roster. Waiters is good, of course Kuzma is good. Bunch of good role players. But Lebron doesn't win that title with say, Rudy Gobert instead of Davis, either.
Whether that's ultimately persuasive is up for debate. Jordan was amazing, but he never won without Pippen and he never won without Phil. Could he have? Perhaps, but we've never seen it.
It's similar to an evaluation of Tom Brady. Exceptional career, absolutely a champion and one of the greats. But how much of his success was due to him, and how much was due to Belichick and the system? Until this year in Tampa, we haven't seen him lead a winner outside of that ecosystem. It's not his fault as he hasn't had the opportunity, it's just another variable.
Imagine if the Ewing had that same ability. Probably would have a few 'ships himself. Hell, imagine if Karl Malone said fuck it, I can't beat Jordan...might as well join him.
One of the hardest things to do in sports is win a title. The next hardest thing to do is win another one. Then comes a dynasty, and being undefeated in said dynasty.
The closest anyone came to matching the Jordan Bulls was the Golden State Warriors that won 3 of 5 in a row. Then what happens? Injuries, players leave to get paid, complacency set in, etc.
I'd love just one good reason why winning 4 titles with 3 different mercenary teams is better than going 6-0 across almost an entire decade of changes and challenges.
To further your point, they very well probably win 8 titles in a row if Jordan doesn't get bored and go off to play baseball for the Birmingham Barons. He came back in '94-'95, and really wasn't fully back yet when they lost to Shaq and Penny in the playoffs. He then went on a string of three more titles before retiring before his age 35 season. In his age 34 season, he was still performing close to the top of his game.
If Jordan doesn't retire, and Krause doesn't break up that team, who knows. They could've conceivably won 9 or 10 in a row. But if Jordan doesn't play baseball, and he keeps that team together for another couple of years after '98, to say that he would still have ended his career with *only* 6 titles is the height of absurdity.
Whether that's ultimately persuasive is up for debate. Jordan was amazing, but he never won without Pippen and he never won without Phil. Could he have? Perhaps, but we've never seen it.
It's similar to an evaluation of Tom Brady. Exceptional career, absolutely a champion and one of the greats. But how much of his success was due to him, and how much was due to Belichick and the system? Until this year in Tampa, we haven't seen him lead a winner outside of that ecosystem. It's not his fault as he hasn't had the opportunity, it's just another variable.
I get it, i just think its a really massive stretch in the current NBA. How much more comfortable can LeBron get - he hand picks his teammates and coaches.
The whole thing is laughable to me. He's now getting applauded for being a mercenary, haha. Great player but an article like that doesn't help his legacy, it actually dampens it IMO. It reminds me how dumb the current NBA is.
that is my takeaway from the finals.
Magic brought up the move in the 1991 finals where MJ switched hands in mid-air and fooled all 5 Lakers. He thinks no one since has been able to do things that Jordan has individually or from a team standpoint.
He's a great speaker by the way.
Jordan was a fantastic scorer, and while I'm sure he would have adapted to the increase in 3-point shooting and improved his shot, and the gather step rules would have given him even more room to operate and create separation, that also has to be tempered by the change in what's allowed on defense (no more illegal defense) and so teams could throw a lot more varied defensive schemes at Jordan as well.
And the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. If Jordan no longer had to worry about hand-checking and hard fouls in the paint, then he also couldn't hand check or foul hard. I'm sure LeBron with his freakish strength/speed combo would have loved to play defense during a time where he could hand-check guards freely and hack them when they drove.
Whether that's ultimately persuasive is up for debate. Jordan was amazing, but he never won without Pippen and he never won without Phil. Could he have? Perhaps, but we've never seen it.
It's similar to an evaluation of Tom Brady. Exceptional career, absolutely a champion and one of the greats. But how much of his success was due to him, and how much was due to Belichick and the system? Until this year in Tampa, we haven't seen him lead a winner outside of that ecosystem. It's not his fault as he hasn't had the opportunity, it's just another variable.
Did you watch that era of baskeball? Just curious. Pippen wasn't the reason Jordan won. He was another really good player on that team. But Jordan could've done it with a Larry Johnson or a Sean Elliott as a complimentary player. There's no substitute to watching his greatness during that era.
Scottie Pippen went to Houston in '98 with Barkley and Olajuwon and that team didn't do squat, with some pretty good role players on that team, too.
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the argument is that LeBron winning with three different franchises/coaches shows that he isn't tethered to any particular system, coach, teammate, organizations.
Whether that's ultimately persuasive is up for debate. Jordan was amazing, but he never won without Pippen and he never won without Phil. Could he have? Perhaps, but we've never seen it.
It's similar to an evaluation of Tom Brady. Exceptional career, absolutely a champion and one of the greats. But how much of his success was due to him, and how much was due to Belichick and the system? Until this year in Tampa, we haven't seen him lead a winner outside of that ecosystem. It's not his fault as he hasn't had the opportunity, it's just another variable.
Did you watch that era of baskeball? Just curious. Pippen wasn't the reason Jordan won. He was another really good player on that team. But Jordan could've done it with a Larry Johnson or a Sean Elliott as a complimentary player. There's no substitute to watching his greatness during that era.
Scottie Pippen went to Houston in '98 with Barkley and Olajuwon and that team didn't do squat, with some pretty good role players on that team, too.
Scottie was 33 years old, coming off back surgery. He wasn’t the same player. Don’t disrespect his contribution to those teams.
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In comment 15006646 PaulBlakeTSU said:
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the argument is that LeBron winning with three different franchises/coaches shows that he isn't tethered to any particular system, coach, teammate, organizations.
Whether that's ultimately persuasive is up for debate. Jordan was amazing, but he never won without Pippen and he never won without Phil. Could he have? Perhaps, but we've never seen it.
It's similar to an evaluation of Tom Brady. Exceptional career, absolutely a champion and one of the greats. But how much of his success was due to him, and how much was due to Belichick and the system? Until this year in Tampa, we haven't seen him lead a winner outside of that ecosystem. It's not his fault as he hasn't had the opportunity, it's just another variable.
Did you watch that era of baskeball? Just curious. Pippen wasn't the reason Jordan won. He was another really good player on that team. But Jordan could've done it with a Larry Johnson or a Sean Elliott as a complimentary player. There's no substitute to watching his greatness during that era.
Scottie Pippen went to Houston in '98 with Barkley and Olajuwon and that team didn't do squat, with some pretty good role players on that team, too.
Scottie was 33 years old, coming off back surgery. He wasn’t the same player. Don’t disrespect his contribution to those teams.
The overall team was better than what Jordan had. I'm not disrespecting his contribution, and Pippen was a very good player, probably a great player, but Jordan could've won without Pippen, but Pippen wouldn't have won without Jordan. Pippen would never have won a title if he had to be the main guy, is what I'm saying. He wasn't the type to carry a team. He was maybe the best complimentary player Jordan could ever ask for, because he was very good in all phases of the game.
Also, saying that Jordan could have won without Pippen,but Pippen could not have won without Jordan makes only one argument: that Jordan was better than Pippen. Who argued to the contrary?
Pippen finished in the TOp 10 of MVP voting 5 times. The year Jordan retired, Pippen came in 3rd in MVP voting, was 1st team All-NBA, and that Bulls team won 55 games. Pippen was a great player, arguably the best perimeter defender of all-time, and a huge part of the Bulls championships.
Also, saying that Pippen was the best complementary player that Jordan could have ever asked for only solidifies part of the larger argument. Jordan didn't have to leave Chicago to find success, because the Bulls brought the mountain to Muhammad. He was set up with great complementary pieces and Phil Jackson. He didn't have to leave.
I can't fault LeBron because he wasn't given the same opportunity with the team that drafted him. He gave them 7 seasons to give them better pieces than Donyell Marshall, Eric Snow, and Anderson Varejao.
How did James respond?
With a 28-point, 14-rebound, 10-assist masterpiece in a series-clinching Game 6 blowout.
As great players do.
As the greatest of all-time does.
Debate Jordan vs. James now, but remember—James is far from finished. Davis is 27 and will likely sign a five-year, max-level extension with the Lakers this summer. Kyle Kuzma is on the books for $3.5 million next season. The Lakers can bring the rest of this group back on short term deals—and still project the $30-plus million in salary cap space they could have in the summer of 2021.
As James accepted his Finals MVP trophy, Davis barked in his ear.
Greatest of all time, Davis said.
He might be right now. Inevitably, he will be.
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Let's forget MJ for a second.
If you think Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, or Shaq had a better career than LeBron; you're simply wrong at this point. LeBron is quite clearly the superior player and had the superior career. Kareem/Russell/Wilt are so hard to compare to modern post-3pt explosion players, but I think LeBron is pretty clearly ahead of Wilt at this point since Wilt struggled to stay focused on winning (Wilt remains the GOAT pure athlete in sports history).
So IMO, the absolute lowest you can put LeBron is 4th all-time. The Mt. Rushmore of Basketball is Russell/Kareem/Jordan/LeBron and all of them have different arguments for GOAT. Sure, I think MJ has the best argument, but the other 3 have valid arguments too and you'd be a fool to think otherwise.
MJ's argument is that at his best, he was simply a more reliable offensive force than anyone ever including LeBron. MJ was able to score at will in a way no one else really could replicate, even Kobe and Wilt struggled to score in the playoffs relatively speaking. And he was also an elite defensive player on top of it. MJ is the consensus GOAT and my personal GOAT for a reason. But...
Times leading Champion in PTS/REBS/AST during Finals:
LeBron James 4x ('12, '13, '16, '20)
Tim Duncan 1x ('03)
Magic Johnson 1x ('87)
Julius Erving 1x ('76)
Despite being on a team with an in his prime Anthony friggin' Davis who was playing at an extremely high level, LeBron was still CLEARLY the Finals MVP and best player on the team in his 17th season. He led a Championship winning team in PTS/REB/AST in the Finals for the 4th time in his career, it's only been done 3 other times in league history by 3 absolute legends of the sport in the generally accepted Peak season of each of their respective careers. LeBron is making historical performance look routine.
Career Playoff Rank
Points: 1st (by a mile)
Assists: 2nd (trailing Magic)
Rebounds: 6th (trailing Russell/Wilt/Duncan/Shaq/Kareem)
Just look at that shit. More points than anyone. Only trailing the GOAT PG when it comes to assists. Only trailing the 5 GOAT Bigs when it comes to rebounds. He's one of the most versatile players ever to say the least.
Again, MJ is my GOAT but LeBron is inching closer and reframing the argument. If he wins another ring and continues to extend the longevity advantage, I might change my mind and give him the nod at some point. Just an absolutely Legendary athlete.
Lebrun is great, no doubt
But Jordan is still a level, albeit small, above him
Jordon was ridiculous, just like Gretzky
LeBron is also single handedly ruining the game and fan base that MJ built.
The game today has athletes with a higher level of agility, speed, and bounce than ever before. It might not be as physical, but it routinely has 6'10 players going coast to coast and 7 footers hitting step-back 3's.
It's a different style of basketball with more emphasis on spacing. Jordan could have dominated today, and LeBron would have dominated then.
LeBron would have knocked Laimbeer on his ass (he was bigger than him). And then LeBron would have been able to impose his freakish speed-strength combo on the defensive end where he would be bigger than the people he guarded.
It cuts both ways.
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the argument is that LeBron winning with three different franchises/coaches shows that he isn't tethered to any particular system, coach, teammate, organizations.
Whether that's ultimately persuasive is up for debate. Jordan was amazing, but he never won without Pippen and he never won without Phil. Could he have? Perhaps, but we've never seen it.
It's similar to an evaluation of Tom Brady. Exceptional career, absolutely a champion and one of the greats. But how much of his success was due to him, and how much was due to Belichick and the system? Until this year in Tampa, we haven't seen him lead a winner outside of that ecosystem. It's not his fault as he hasn't had the opportunity, it's just another variable.
Did you watch that era of baskeball? Just curious. Pippen wasn't the reason Jordan won. He was another really good player on that team. But Jordan could've done it with a Larry Johnson or a Sean Elliott as a complimentary player. There's no substitute to watching his greatness during that era.
Scottie Pippen went to Houston in '98 with Barkley and Olajuwon and that team didn't do squat, with some pretty good role players on that team, too.
I have never understood the "Jordan didn't win anything without Pippen" BS. Pippen joined the team for MJ's 4th season and played with him every year after that. What choice did he have? What was MJ supposed to do? Kick him off the team to prove he could win without him? MJ failing to win before Pippen had everything to do with MJ still being a young player and the Bulls still being a crap organization, just like Lebron didn't even make the playoffs until his 3rd season and even then he got eliminated in the Eastern Semis. Very few players come in and just dominate and win championships their first couple years in the league.
Lebron lost two Finals (including one to the Mavs) with Wade/Bosh. The consensus is that Wade and Bosh are ranked ahead of Pippen and Rodman/Grant (respectively) in terms of all-time great players. There is no way MJ would have ever lost to the Mavs in 6 games with Wade/Bosh dead in the middle of this prime. Just imagine that. That's really all we need to know for this debate.
I have plenty of respect for Lebron and he's #2 on my all-time greatest list. I also give him a lot of credit for coming back from down 3-1 against a 73 win Warriors team in the 2016 Finals-- that may be the most impressive single-season accomplishment of all-time. But in terms of a "greatest ever" debate no one touches MJ.
LBJ left the Cavs because they were a dumpster fire of an organization that would never have had a chance of sniffing a lottery player like Pippen because he was too good and he couldn't get anyone to come play in Cleveland. He tried to recruit Bosh to Cleveland before he jumped ship to Miami.
He was also on the clearly inferior team for all of his finals appearances aside from the Mavs (a huge stain on his resume) and the Heat this year. You could certainly agrue OKC as well but to me that was a push since they had Harden as well. I also don't buy that James would not have succeeded in Jordan's era. Do you really think LeBron at 6'9, 250 would have feared playing against Bill Laimbeer, Rick Mahorn and John Salley?
I will give the nod to Jordan, but there is absolutely an argument to be made for James, especially if he is able to win another title.
I just have a problem with stating that winning in multiple places being a bigger achievement. Just makes no sense to me especially since it wasn't evn organic. The guy literally handpicked his fellow mercenaries and even then it took a long time for it to workout the way he wanted. Its actually one of the only ways to definitively compare eras - "teaming up" wasn't possible back then.
Give me 6-0 all day and twice on Sunday's. Just not even remotely close, can't even see why its a debate. Perfection + more rings is somehow inferior to imperfection and less rings?
I've got a bridge to sell you.
Keep the articles coming, Stan!
Peak NBA for me was actually just after Jordan's 6th. Those Kings/Blazers/Lakers Western conference slugfests were the peak for me in terms of interest in the league. This was post Jordan and pre- Derrick Rose Bulls which is weird considering that I'm a Bulls fan. My interest was never higher than the 04 finals, Detroit taking down the Lakers.
Some of that has to do with my age - I was super young during the Jordan years, but it also has to do with what I find interesting in basketball. Similar to the old big east, things just aren't like they were and change isn't always a good thing. The current NBA bores me to tears.
LBJ left the Cavs because they were a dumpster fire of an organization that would never have had a chance of sniffing a lottery player like Pippen because he was too good and he couldn't get anyone to come play in Cleveland. He tried to recruit Bosh to Cleveland before he jumped ship to Miami.
He was also on the clearly inferior team for all of his finals appearances aside from the Mavs (a huge stain on his resume) and the Heat this year. You could certainly agrue OKC as well but to me that was a push since they had Harden as well. I also don't buy that James would not have succeeded in Jordan's era. Do you really think LeBron at 6'9, 250 would have feared playing against Bill Laimbeer, Rick Mahorn and John Salley?
I will give the nod to Jordan, but there is absolutely an argument to be made for James, especially if he is able to win another title.
The Heat were heavy favorites against the Spurs in the ‘13 Finals. The Heat were the Vegas favorites at the beginning of every year for the 4 years of the Big 3. The Thunder won 1 more game than the Heat that regular season and were slightly favored at the start of that series but I wouldn’t say the Heat were “clearly the inferior team” by any means. Part of the Thunder being slight favorites had to do with the concept still strong in people’s minds at the time that Lebron was a choke artist (the loss to the Mavs was the year before). Harden in 2012 was not the Harden of today. Same with Westbrook. You could make an argument for both those players being top 5 today, but not back then— they’ve both worked their asses off to improve their all around games. Harden technically wasn’t even a starter on that team.
Also— the reason the Bulls were the favorites to win every time was because of Jordan. MJ was the reason they were the superior team, so I never fully understand that argument. Give MJ a prime Wade and Bosh and I don’t see how anyone could ever say any one of those Thunder/Spurs teams would be superior.
And a lot of people talk about that era as though MJ had no competition. Like 1) He certainly had competition in the East... 2) that Jazz team could very well have been a dynasty if not for the Bulls beating them. Malone very well may have been the greatest PF if all time and Stockton was a top 3 PG of all time, and they had legendary chemistry together and a number of other very good players around them.
Lebron on the other hand never had any competition in the East, which is why he walked into the finals every year (often of course just to have his ass handed to him by a superior west team). Pointing out that Lebron lost to the Warriors certainly helps defend his legacy, but it isn’t a good argument for why he should be the greatest of all time IMO.
One more thing for people who wanna walk about lack of competition in Jordan’s title runs: Lebron to get his 4th just had clearly the easiest title walk of any of the 10 titles the two have between them. Because 1) AD is a valuable talent like no other that neither MJ nor Bron ever had before, and 2) they didn’t even Have to play the 2 other best teams in the league (the Clippers and the Bucks).
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Jordan had was more competition to deal with then Lebron. Most of the NBA is full of crap teams today..back in the 80's you had a elvel playing field and wars were fought. The NBA today is soft, No inside game. Lebron would get his ass kick by Bill Lambieer or Charles Oakley with his game.
Good call on the Heat being favored in 13, but I still maintain that those Spurs teams were more complete, better overall teams with the addition of Leonard in 2011.
James can never top Jordan's 6-0 finals record, but to me it is silly to hold his '07 loss to the Spurs with that sorry ass Cavs team he dragged there or his losses to the Warriors against him. He probably could have beaten them in '15 if Irving and Love were healthy but he had no shot once they added Durant. No one did.
I am not denying that Jordan had really tough competition en route to his titles but serious question because I really only remember the last 2 finals against the Jazz. Did Jordan's Bulls ever have to play a team as good as the dynasty Warriors?
Although I agree James is a truly great player, his attitude and antics would not have played well in Jordan's era and the daily grind would have taken it's toll.
Perhaps not early on, but certainly a few short seasons after.
LeBron's ego would be writing checks his body could not keep paying. His inability to blend with a coach and front office would have backfired vs running his own show.
If Jordan did not take a sabbatical to play baseball he would have won additional titles. To not forget should the Bulls have hung on for one more season (a short season) 70% another title. More fact than the fiction your posting.
The NFL game last night had twice as many viewers as the NBA Finals game lol
Go look at the ratings on those 90's finals - couldn't be a bigger contrast.
NO ONE CARES.
I don't think anyone in their 30s really understands the athletic freak Jordan was. Especially when his first five years in the league before he won his first title. His speed, quickness and jumping ability were extraordinary. He was fearless going to the hole in a much more physically demanding game and thrived due to that athleticism. And every night he was THE best on the ball and help side defender in the league. The only player who even comes close with Bryant.
Further, the burden Jordan embraced to be the guy who would takeover the scoring demands when the game was on the line is an incredible characteristic. He absolutely thrived on that pressure. Demanded it. That totally relaxed the rest of the team knowing they had the greatest closer ever in the history of sports.
At the end of the day, it's an easy conclusion for me. If my life was on the line and I needed someone to make a shot, it's Jordan all day, any day. And if I need a guy to lock down the other team's best scorer, assuming it's not the center, Jordan is that guy, too.
LeBron is a spectacular player. But Jordan rarely wilted in the big moment. LeBron has quite a few of those on his resume to account for...
People really don’t think Lebron could play in the 80s and 90s? Do you understand what physical freak and talent he is? Who’s guarding him on the Bad Boys? Who was guarding him on the Utah Jazz? To me he’s the greatest athlete that ever played the sport. Look at his sheer size, speed, skill and intelligence. One of the smartest players ever.
I understand not liking some of his stuff off the court. But if you can’t enjoy and recognize his greatness on the court you either know zero about hoops or simply just hate the guy.
And the posters saying Davis carried this team is a complete joke.
People really don’t think Lebron could play in the 80s and 90s? Do you understand what physical freak and talent he is? Who’s guarding him on the Bad Boys? Who was guarding him on the Utah Jazz? To me he’s the greatest athlete that ever played the sport. Look at his sheer size, speed, skill and intelligence. One of the smartest players ever.
No doubt LBJ could play in the 80s and 90s. And I have absolutely no doubt Jordan would average 40-45ppg in today's more one space/no hand check rules.
Disagree on LBJ being a better athlete than Jordan. Jordan was faster (was clocked at 4.3 in the forty at UNC), much quicker and jumped higher.
6-0 doesn't define MJ. It's very impressive, but he is so much bigger than that.
Who was a better basketball player, '88-'90 MJ or '96-'98 MJ?
IMO, '88-'90 MJ was pretty clearly the superior player even if he won 0 rings during that stretch vs. the 3 in '96-'98. Young MJ was an unstoppable force of nature who set the world on fire in a way no other athlete has, yet he didn't win any rings these years so he's just a fucking loser right?
No, he was better in '88-'90 but in '96-'98 he had a better Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson along with a very deep cast in a terribly mediocre Expansion era NBA. But there's no way you can watch '98 MJ play and then watch '90 MJ play and think the '98 version was better. Wiser and more tricks up his sleeve? Sure. But better? Hell no. So there's more to this than just rings. Don't disrespect '88-'90 MJ like that.
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“The best and most ‘complete’ player I have seen in my lifetime is @KingJames on and off the floor,” long-time Jordan nemesis Isiah Thomas tweeted Thursday. “He passed the eye test and the numbers confirm what my eyes have seen in every statistical category. #GOAT let it be known!”
What a source - Isaiah Thomas. He's never liked Jordan, especially after Jordan further destroyed him in the "Last Dance", and now he's supporting LBJ. Shocker...
Well, it doesn’t and 6-0 is a massive reason why. And Stan isn’t even discussing which he never does, he just posts links of other opinions since he can’t think for himself.
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“The best and most ‘complete’ player I have seen in my lifetime is @KingJames on and off the floor,” long-time Jordan nemesis Isiah Thomas tweeted Thursday. “He passed the eye test and the numbers confirm what my eyes have seen in every statistical category. #GOAT let it be known!”
How about someone with a Lakers connection.
I posted this above the timing was serendipitous but we had a company wide zoom meeting with Magic Johnson today.
At the end was a Q&A and someone asked him some work question but then followed it up with "who is the GOAT, MJ or LeBron?"
And Magic didn't hesitate, he said Jordan without question and went on to explain why.
He had good things to say about LeBron but he's probably the most unbiased person on this topic or close.
Well, it doesn’t and 6-0 is a massive reason why. And Stan isn’t even discussing which he never does, he just posts links of other opinions since he can’t think for himself.
Stan is Stan lol. He's been anti-MJ, anti-Tiger, anti-Federer, and is probably anti-"popular GOAT choice" in several other sports. Either he likes to be contrarian when it comes to GOAT debates or he just hates Nike, or a bit of both.
I think the "3 different Franchises" thing is being talked about too much when it comes to LeBron. It's definitely impressive and does have meaning. But it's a different era so it's hard to compare modern athletes who move around in Free Agency to players from the past.
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People really don’t think Lebron could play in the 80s and 90s? Do you understand what physical freak and talent he is? Who’s guarding him on the Bad Boys? Who was guarding him on the Utah Jazz? To me he’s the greatest athlete that ever played the sport. Look at his sheer size, speed, skill and intelligence. One of the smartest players ever.
No doubt LBJ could play in the 80s and 90s. And I have absolutely no doubt Jordan would average 40-45ppg in today's more one space/no hand check rules.
Disagree on LBJ being a better athlete than Jordan. Jordan was faster (was clocked at 4.3 in the forty at UNC), much quicker and jumped higher.
Jordan was a great athlete, no doubt. A 4.38 40? Perhaps. What did he weigh in college, 185-195 pounds?
Jordan's playing weight ranged from 195-215. He was probably 180-195 in college (40 time age). That he was a little quicker with a little more bounce than LeBron whose playing weight ranged from 250-275 is unsurprising.
But I think what LeBron could do at his size-- his explosion, speed, vertical. His first step. His stride. That speed-strength combo of freakishness is rivaled only by Wilt on the court. Not to mention his insane durability.
Michael Jordan is an exceptional athlete (and even better basketball player than athlete). LeBron is an alien. A true freak of nature.
6-0 doesn't define MJ. It's very impressive, but he is so much bigger than that.
Who was a better basketball player, '88-'90 MJ or '96-'98 MJ?
IMO, '88-'90 MJ was pretty clearly the superior player even if he won 0 rings during that stretch vs. the 3 in '96-'98. Young MJ was an unstoppable force of nature who set the world on fire in a way no other athlete has, yet he didn't win any rings these years so he's just a fucking loser right?
No, he was better in '88-'90 but in '96-'98 he had a better Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson along with a very deep cast in a terribly mediocre Expansion era NBA. But there's no way you can watch '98 MJ play and then watch '90 MJ play and think the '98 version was better. Wiser and more tricks up his sleeve? Sure. But better? Hell no. So there's more to this than just rings. Don't disrespect '88-'90 MJ like that.
Good post. People get hung up on 6-0, when really it should be 6-9 as he played 15 seasons, not 6. It's not a knock, it's recognition that his entire career should be considered when discussing his greatness. And if you only focus on the 6, then you dismiss the insane shit he did in the 80s.
What an amazing player/career.
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“The best and most ‘complete’ player I have seen in my lifetime is @KingJames on and off the floor,” long-time Jordan nemesis Isiah Thomas tweeted Thursday. “He passed the eye test and the numbers confirm what my eyes have seen in every statistical category. #GOAT let it be known!”
You're kidding right? Zeke & MJ hate one another like RFK & Hoffa.
91 finals. He said Jordan basically toyed with them.
he cited the famous play when Jordan was driving the lane with the ball in his right hand and went up and all the Lakers in the lane went up and he switched hands and banked it in off the backboard.
He went on for a few minutes, said nice things about LeBron, but said it wasn't close for him in saying who is the GOAT.
I think this is the play he meant. He said after this play they were all shaking their heads...
that is my takeaway from the finals.
Worse than the Cavs team from 2009-10 if you looked at them sans LeBron?
But Stan is right: LBJ is unquestionably the GOAT. Hats off to him. He earned it.
I was going to say the same thing. LBJ went to teams, they literally traded everything they had to get him the teammates he wanted, and then he jumped ship leaving the team with nothing in the cupboard.
How can you look and say that that is something that puts him on par with Jordan. Weak argument.
The Bulls made the playoffs every single year Jordan was with them. He was 39 the first time a team he played on missed the playoffs.
With LeBron, the Lakers missed the playoffs last season. At age 34.
We don't know if he could have or couldn't have. We know that he didn't, which doesn't mean that he couldn't. But it does mean that you assuming he could is not any different than anyone else declaring he wouldn't have.
prove it
He didn't go 6 for 6. He went 6 for 15. It's not a knock on him-- it was an amazing career. Perhaps the best ever. But the other seasons matter, too.
We also shouldn't dismiss 1994-95 entirely. I know it's inconvenient for people who want to say that he won 6 in a row, but it's just not true. He played 17 regular season games in 1994-95 to get himself in shape. He played more minutes per game that season than any season that followed and had more rebounds and assists per game than any season that followed. His scoring ability went down. Again, he definitely had rust the shake off, but by the time the playoffs rolled around, he was at or hear his usual self.The only difference is, they lost in the playoffs. Here are his playoff numbers from the year he started winning championships. Can you spot any meaningful difference between his 94-95 season with any of the seasons that followed?
It could just be that they lost to a better Magic team (a series that started 2 months after his first game back-- plenty of time to be in shape). It could be that the 94-95 Bulls team wasn't as good as the teams that followed-- Kukoc was a rookie and then they went ahead and acquired ROdman who added a ton to that Bulls second three-peat, as teh best rebounder in the game that year and making first team all-defense.
Additionally, just assuming that if Jordan doesn't take time off would lead to 8 championships also assumes that playing two full seasons from 93-95 without taking a break to recover (baseball doesn't compare), would have no impact on his his game from 96-98. It also assumes that they beat the Magic if Jordan played the entire season based off of no evidence.
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he proved that by sh$tting on the league the next season in embarrassing fashion.
LeBron has 4 NBA Championships, and 4 Finals MVPs. He has lost in the finals 6 times.
If you want to give credit to LeBron for *making the finals, but not winning* as a means to say he is better than Jordan, I'm not sure there's any validity to that.
James played longer than Jordan, no question, he has been good for a longer period of time.
If we are talking strictly basketball performance while at their peak, it isn't close in my opinion. Michael Jordan was on another planet, and still is.
With LeBron, the Lakers missed the playoffs last season. At age 34.
...they missed the playoffs last season because James was injured. They were the 4th seed in the West without AD before he got hurt.
Yeah. LeBron has won 4 championships in 17 seasons. Made the FInals in 10 of them. Had earlier exits in other seasons.
THe point is to look at a career in its entirety. Jordan going "6 for 6" ignores the 9 other seasons where his team lost before even getting to the finals as if it's better to somehow lose earlier. That's all I'm saying.
Teams win championships. Basketball players have more influence on team success than any other sport, but it's still a team game.
If that weren't the case, then it raises the question as to why Jordan only won six championships. Was he only the best player in the league in six of his seasons? (of course not)
That isn't to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Winning six championships, with six finals MVPs is incredible. Its part of the reason that Jordan is unanimously considered one of the greatest to ever play. And if people want to use is as part of a larger argument as to why he is the single greatest player to ever live, I won't say that they are wrong. It's certainly a reasonable position to hold.
he proved that by sh$tting on the league the next season in embarrassing fashion.
It's almost as if you couldn't see right in the stats that Paul attached that MJ's playoff numbers in 1994-95 were almost identical to the years that followed. The variable was Rodman.
There is no questioning that Jordan is one of the best to ever play the game. Maybe THE fiercest competitor.
But you don't need to pretend that he was undefeated in the playoffs across an 8-year span to make your case, especially when it's not true.
They're both all-time greats. Both on the first hand if you're counting off the GOATS on your fingers. You really can't go wrong with either, although they're not really similar players at all.
If I'm starting a team from scratch, I'm taking LBJ to build around - his versatility is just too valuable to pass up. If I'm playing one game, winner take all, I'm choosing Jordan - his killer instinct is unmatched.
It's a fun debate, but I don't think you can go wrong with either side. Whether you pick Jordan or James, you're well on your way to building a champion.
The only reason he doesn't have 8 rings is because he literally stopped playing. LeBron has only gotten to 4 and has played every single season for 17 years!
The only reason he doesn't have 8 rings is because he literally stopped playing. LeBron has only gotten to 4 and has played every single season for 17 years!
There's no chance the Bulls would've won 8 in a row. Several Bulls including Steve Kerr has called it laughable to suggest 8 in a row was possible. Jordan was spent after 3 straight Finals trips, now you want him and the team to go to the Finals 5 more years in a row after that? No chance. Maybe they win 4 or 5 in a row, but if they did they wouldn't have enough in the tank to win in '97 and '98.
Horace Grant is the most underrated figure of the entire Bulls' Dynasty. Sure MJ was rusty in '95 when he came back, but the main reason they lost to the Magic is because Horace Grant signed with the Magic that year and the Bulls' team wasn't good enough around MJ.
The Rockets were also consistently the best team against the Bulls in the entire NBA during that period of time, with the Bulls having absolutely no answer for Hakeem. MJ even admitted that Hakeem was the one player who scared him. It would've been the Bulls' biggest challenge.
The ironic thing is that if MJ, straight out of a retirement and into the fire, dragged the Bulls back into the NBA Finals in '95 by going through a dominant Shaq/Penny/Grant Magic sqaud only to lose to the Hakeem/Drexler Rockets in the Finals... it would actually hurt his legacy in the eyes of many because he'd be 6-1 in the Finals instead of 6-0. Makes perfect sense.
The only reason he doesn't have 8 rings is because he literally stopped playing. LeBron has only gotten to 4 and has played every single season for 17 years!
I get the rust argument but Jordan played in 95 and lost to Orlando. That doesn't count?
And besides the 2011 Finals which Lebron deserves serious criticism for- what other Finals was he supposed to win?
And for everyone pointing to 6 rings vs 4. Lebron is not close to being done. The Lakers enter next year as the title favorite and are set up to be contend for years. And he's still the best player in the league and at the moment its not really close...
The only reason he doesn't have 8 rings is because he literally stopped playing. LeBron has only gotten to 4 and has played every single season for 17 years!
Learning isn't your strong suit, but go ahead and read the whole thread.
I'm sure it won't change your mind; you're not really that capable of critical thought from what I've experienced (and as evidenced by "I DIDN'T READ THE THREAD BUT HERE'S MY OPINION!!!!11!!ONE!!!").
If you get to pretend that Jordan was undefeated in playoff years that he actually did participate in and lost, we can also share equally plausible/fictional scenarios in which those playoff runs in '93 and '94 put a little more mileage on MJ's tires and leave him gassed in '97 and '98.
You don't get to unilaterally use make-believe to support your arguments.
He wouldn't have been gassed? He literally retired after each 3-peat, but we're supposed to just believe that he could have kept going at full speed because we didn't ever have to see him operating on fumes?
Again, because of MJ's two separate mid-career retirements, you can't actually prove that he wouldn't have been gassed if he actually attempted to go for anything more than 3 consecutive championships, but we're supposed to take it at face value that he wouldn't have been?
The NBA playoffs are a grind. I don't think it's a coincidence that MJ hung up his kicks after each 3-peat. As a matter of fact, from what we can plainly see with our own eyes, it's MUCH more likely that MJ would not have been able to extend either championship streak beyond 3 since, you know, he basically announced that he was gassed each time he did it.
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but saying that after 17 games after 1.5 yrs off gets him ready to be who he is and was... is just incorrect and silly comment.
he proved that by sh$tting on the league the next season in embarrassing fashion.
It's almost as if you couldn't see right in the stats that Paul attached that MJ's playoff numbers in 1994-95 were almost identical to the years that followed. The variable was Rodman.
There is no questioning that Jordan is one of the best to ever play the game. Maybe THE fiercest competitor.
But you don't need to pretend that he was undefeated in the playoffs across an 8-year span to make your case, especially when it's not true.
They're both all-time greats. Both on the first hand if you're counting off the GOATS on your fingers. You really can't go wrong with either, although they're not really similar players at all.
If I'm starting a team from scratch, I'm taking LBJ to build around - his versatility is just too valuable to pass up. If I'm playing one game, winner take all, I'm choosing Jordan - his killer instinct is unmatched.
It's a fun debate, but I don't think you can go wrong with either side. Whether you pick Jordan or James, you're well on your way to building a champion.
Or I watched it all live and remember it very clearly
And when mj botches an end of game play in the playoffs to lose and looks generally lost... that is rust.
40yr old mj put up as good stats as spider Mitchell and others like him this year- so stats are just that- watching it another thing
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In comment 15007682 hitdog42 said:
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but saying that after 17 games after 1.5 yrs off gets him ready to be who he is and was... is just incorrect and silly comment.
he proved that by sh$tting on the league the next season in embarrassing fashion.
It's almost as if you couldn't see right in the stats that Paul attached that MJ's playoff numbers in 1994-95 were almost identical to the years that followed. The variable was Rodman.
There is no questioning that Jordan is one of the best to ever play the game. Maybe THE fiercest competitor.
But you don't need to pretend that he was undefeated in the playoffs across an 8-year span to make your case, especially when it's not true.
They're both all-time greats. Both on the first hand if you're counting off the GOATS on your fingers. You really can't go wrong with either, although they're not really similar players at all.
If I'm starting a team from scratch, I'm taking LBJ to build around - his versatility is just too valuable to pass up. If I'm playing one game, winner take all, I'm choosing Jordan - his killer instinct is unmatched.
It's a fun debate, but I don't think you can go wrong with either side. Whether you pick Jordan or James, you're well on your way to building a champion.
Or I watched it all live and remember it very clearly
And when mj botches an end of game play in the playoffs to lose and looks generally lost... that is rust.
40yr old mj put up as good stats as spider Mitchell and others like him this year- so stats are just that- watching it another thing
I'm guessing we're about the same age or I'm a little bit older than you. You can spare me the "I saw him with my own two eyes" nonsense. I was in the building when Starks threw it down on Jordan's head in 1993. I saw plenty of prime Jordan. I know how invincible he was when he was at his peak. But I also know that he seemed incapable of maintaining that peak much longer than a few years at a time (maybe due to the intensity with which he approached the game?).
I stand by my statement. If I'm building a team from scratch, I'm taking LBJ so that I can fit the pieces around him a bit more easily (can MJ swing between PG and PF and play either at an all-star level like LeBron?), and if I'm facing a game 7 do-or-die, it's MJ for me all day.
I don't see why that would be controversial. It might not be the choice everyone would make, but you can't say it's not defensible.
In that series, Jordan played 42 mpg, and averaged 31 points, 6.5 Rebounds, 3.7 assists, 2.5 steals, and 1.8 blocks. He was awesome. His averages across the board in these categories were lower the following year in the playoffs. Obviously, stats aren't everything. But it certainly makes it harder to say that Jordan wasn't Jordan in that series, or that any drop-off was the difference with winning. And it certainly calls into question the idea that the Bulls would have won 8 in a row with Jordan when they had Jordan and lost.
Jordan was remarkable that series, so why act as if he didn't even play or if it didn't count? If Jordan was so "not Jordan" in 94-95 playoffs, then why didn't we see marked improvement in his production in the playoff years that followed when he was there the whole season?
What was different about the next year in the playoffs wasn't that Jordan was materially different. It was that the Bulls got the best rebounder (and one of the better defenders) in the history of the sport, and that along with the development of Kukoc helped re-establish the Bulls as a juggernaut.
LeBron and Michael are completely different players. Both are two of the best to ever play. You would win championships with either on your team.
However -
I'll take Bill Russell over both.
I understand in theory why that would be desirable but when you take a step back and think about how close playoff basketball games are, we are talking about a unique and pretty rare skillset that I guess you don't want for games 1-6?
If a GM starting a basketball team can't "build around Jordan" then they suck at their job. I realize I'm taking a very literal shot at that statement, but since we are talking hypotheticals, well, there's mine.
I'm taking the guy I know is going to win me big games to build my team around because he's going to....win me big games.
I'm taking the guy I know is going to win me big games to build my team around because he's going to....win me big games.
James wins big games too. I am not sure what you are getting at. We are splitting hairs here, as much as some older folks refuse to admit it. These are the two greatest basketball players that have ever lived, but they are different players, that was his point.
James offers versatility that Jordan didn't because he can play and defend any position on the floor at his size and freakish athleticism.
Yes this is splitting hairs, the whole thread is.
LeBron is also consistently one of the best late game players in the league. His "Clutch" stats (last 5 mins of a 5pt game) are literally the best of his generation. He's also literally the best Game 7 and Closeout Game player in NBA history.
I don't think that makes him more "Clutch" than MJ, obviously MJ has the edge there imo. But LeBron is up there with anyone else in the history of the league in Clutch situations. The problem is that people don't consider a rampaging late game drive and lay up by LeBron to be clutch, only way to be clutch is to make jumpers apparently.
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but saying that after 17 games after 1.5 yrs off gets him ready to be who he is and was... is just incorrect and silly comment.
he proved that by sh$tting on the league the next season in embarrassing fashion.
It's almost as if you couldn't see right in the stats that Paul attached that MJ's playoff numbers in 1994-95 were almost identical to the years that followed. The variable was Rodman.
There is no questioning that Jordan is one of the best to ever play the game. Maybe THE fiercest competitor.
But you don't need to pretend that he was undefeated in the playoffs across an 8-year span to make your case, especially when it's not true.
They're both all-time greats. Both on the first hand if you're counting off the GOATS on your fingers. You really can't go wrong with either, although they're not really similar players at all.
If I'm starting a team from scratch, I'm taking LBJ to build around - his versatility is just too valuable to pass up. If I'm playing one game, winner take all, I'm choosing Jordan - his killer instinct is unmatched.
It's a fun debate, but I don't think you can go wrong with either side. Whether you pick Jordan or James, you're well on your way to building a champion.
LeBron is also single handedly ruining the game and fan base that MJ built.
As a very very casual fan of the sport, the eye test tells me MJ was better than Lebron, as you mentioned.
That a team's championship window (Knicks) was opened by his retirement to baseball says quite a lot about how great he was.
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MJ played in an era where the game was more physical. Today, a foul is called when someone looks at you funny.. then LeBron will hit the floor like a big pussy.
LeBron is also single handedly ruining the game and fan base that MJ built.
As a very very casual fan of the sport, the eye test tells me MJ was better than Lebron, as you mentioned.
That a team's championship window (Knicks) was opened by his retirement to baseball says quite a lot about how great he was.
Likewise, a team went from Eastern Conference champions to the worst team in the sport in one year simply by losing LeBron in free agency.
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but that’s cool. What were his reasons?
91 finals. He said Jordan basically toyed with them.
he cited the famous play when Jordan was driving the lane with the ball in his right hand and went up and all the Lakers in the lane went up and he switched hands and banked it in off the backboard.
He went on for a few minutes, said nice things about LeBron, but said it wasn't close for him in saying who is the GOAT.
I think this is the play he meant. He said after this play they were all shaking their heads...
This was obviously an amazing play, but I never understood why he switched hands in the first place. It looks like he could have easily scored with his right instead of making it a circus play. Did he think someone to his right was going to block him? Again not diminishing how ridiculous a play it was but I’ve always been curious about that.
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In comment 15007081 UConn4523 said:
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but that’s cool. What were his reasons?
91 finals. He said Jordan basically toyed with them.
he cited the famous play when Jordan was driving the lane with the ball in his right hand and went up and all the Lakers in the lane went up and he switched hands and banked it in off the backboard.
He went on for a few minutes, said nice things about LeBron, but said it wasn't close for him in saying who is the GOAT.
I think this is the play he meant. He said after this play they were all shaking their heads...
This was obviously an amazing play, but I never understood why he switched hands in the first place. It looks like he could have easily scored with his right instead of making it a circus play. Did he think someone to his right was going to block him? Again not diminishing how ridiculous a play it was but I’ve always been curious about that.
I wonder the exact same thing every time I see this play. The call by Marv was great but it looks to me like he could have easily just dunked or put in a layup up with his right hand.
Ok fine. But in the debate of who is the greatest basketball player of all time why is this play ever brought up? I can say without question that James' block of Iguodala is far more historic than this unnecessary reverse layup.
I didn't bring the play up, Magic Johnson did (four days ago on a company meeting we had) as partial evidence of some of things Jordan was able to do on a basketball court that in Magic's opinion (which is probably more relevant than most of ours) helped explain that to him MJ is the GOAT and not LeBron.
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Bullshit. You are only saying this because you want this to be true. LeBron would dominate in the 80's just like Jordan would be a dominant player in today's game. As I have already stated, we are splitting hairs in this discussion. They are the greatest 2 players that have ever lived.
I want you to think hard about what you posted. Do you really think that LeBron at his size and speed would have failed in the 80's? The big centers in that era would have shit their pants with him driving to the basket.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence you used two WHITE players to make your point. I don’t think I’m going to go out on a limb here when I assume you have an issue white players in general. This place never ceases to amaze me.
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I don’t think it’s a coincidence you used two WHITE players to make your point. I don’t think I’m going to go out on a limb here when I assume you have an issue white players in general. This place never ceases to amaze me.
I mean... Yes? They have four inch verticals. Go sell insurance or something.
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lane to the hoop, but at the last minute Perkins &, to a smaller degree, A.C. Green, clog it up &-for a split second-it looks like Perkins is going to go straight up.
Ok fine. But in the debate of who is the greatest basketball player of all time why is this play ever brought up? I can say without question that James' block of Iguodala is far more historic than this unnecessary reverse layup.
The lay-up itself is unnecessary but like many things, the context of it has kind of been lost in history.
Magic Johnson had won the MVP award in '89 and '90. The Lakers were actually favored entering in the '91 Finals. Although MJ was the '91 MVP and the most talented player alive, the league was still going through Magic Johnson since the Pistons had declined.
The Lakers took Game 1, including a missed GW-shot by MJ at the end. So down 0-1, being the underdog, with Magic Johnson still looking like "the man"... there were some doubts about Chicago being able to win the series.
MJ came back to utterly dominate Game 2 (15-18 FGs, 13 assists, 33 points) and had a stretch where he made 13 consecutive Field Goals. The "lay-up" was the 13th of the 13 straight field goals. The Bulls went on to win the rest of the games in the series to beat the Lakers in 5 (although the Bulls lucked out because Worthy and Scott both were hurt during the Finals)
The "lay-up" isn't simply a highlight because of the athleticism involved. It's a highlight because it represents the exact moment when MJ took control of the league from Magic and started the Bulls' reign of dominance over the sport.
Also, I hate slow motion highlights for sports. I respect the hell out of NFL Films but give me regular speed highlights of plays. This MJ layup looks so much more impressive in real-time imo.
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In comment 15010598 BrettNYG10 said:
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I don’t think it’s a coincidence you used two WHITE players to make your point. I don’t think I’m going to go out on a limb here when I assume you have an issue white players in general. This place never ceases to amaze me.
I mean... Yes? They have four inch verticals. Go sell insurance or something.
See? This is what these “movements” are doing to this generation. It’s normalizing this behavior. Shaking my damn head. ALM.
He had nice things to say about LeBron, but I feel like as a Lakers guy and someone who was great in their own right, Magic's opinion matters - more than Isaiah who does have an axe to grind. but that could be my own confirmation bias too.
But as others have said this discussion is kind of silly when you're talking 1 and 1a. It's not a slight to either player IMO to pick one over the other.
It reminds me of the Brady vs Peyton battles I'd have with my Patriots fan friends. Now I think brady wins easily, but in the mid to later 00's a strong case could be made for Peyton, but when you had Peyton over Brady it's like you were calling their baby ugly. They were so offended and would bring up stuff like "plays in a dome", "surrounded by hall of famers", etc.
Are you joking? I hate the flopping and complaining but the man is a chiseled 6’9 260 pounds. Who exactly from the 80s is covering him? He’s also an incredibly physical player who’s been injured once.
The slander against Lebron is very revealing of the basketball acumen on this site.
You do realize who else was on that Bucks team, right?
Yeah that is true. Kobe was far more similar to Jordan than LeBron in terms of mentality. But that mentality drained Jordan. I have seen people talk about in this thread that Jordan would have won 8 straight titles had he not retired to play baseball. We all watched The Last Dance. Jordan was gassed after his first 3-peat.
Yet we actually saw LeBron go to 8 straight NBA finals, with two different teams no less. It is not his fault that he ran into a dynasty Warriors team.
Yeah that is true. Kobe was far more similar to Jordan than LeBron in terms of mentality. But that mentality drained Jordan. I have seen people talk about in this thread that Jordan would have won 8 straight titles had he not retired to play baseball. We all watched The Last Dance. Jordan was gassed after his first 3-peat.
Yet we actually saw LeBron go to 8 straight NBA finals, with two different teams no less. It is not his fault that he ran into a dynasty Warriors team.
A few comments on this. Jordan been beaten up for three consecutive years by the Pistons, who could have easily been a three peat winner themselves if Thomas didn't hurt his ankle in the '88 finals versus the Lakers in G6. So that was a HUGE hurdle to get over for him. LeBron faced nothing like that - ever.
Furthermore, Jordan's barometer back then was measuring himself versus Magic and Bird. And when he did something that neither ever did with the three-peat he was definitely burned out...
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Yeah that is true. Kobe was far more similar to Jordan than LeBron in terms of mentality. But that mentality drained Jordan. I have seen people talk about in this thread that Jordan would have won 8 straight titles had he not retired to play baseball. We all watched The Last Dance. Jordan was gassed after his first 3-peat.
Yet we actually saw LeBron go to 8 straight NBA finals, with two different teams no less. It is not his fault that he ran into a dynasty Warriors team.
A few comments on this. Jordan been beaten up for three consecutive years by the Pistons, who could have easily been a three peat winner themselves if Thomas didn't hurt his ankle in the '88 finals versus the Lakers in G6. So that was a HUGE hurdle to get over for him. LeBron faced nothing like that - ever.
Ever? You don't think James having to face the Warriors was as big a challenge as the Bad Boys were for Jordan?
Ever? You don't think James having to face the Warriors was as big a challenge as the Bad Boys were for Jordan?
I mean to just get to the Finals out of the East.
Personally, I think the Pistons would comfortably handle the Warriors, especially the rules of the game in the '80s. But even today's game, I think the Pistons were athletic and gifted enough to adapt. Thomas and Dumars could definitely match up with Curry and Thompson.
Agreed. Although I do think a less rusty Jordan, when he came back in '95, gets by the Magic. He made some uncharacteristic mistakes down the stretch in several games of that series...
So it may have been 7 out of 8 if Jordan come back earlier '94/'95 season...
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Ever? You don't think James having to face the Warriors was as big a challenge as the Bad Boys were for Jordan?
I mean to just get to the Finals out of the East.
Personally, I think the Pistons would comfortably handle the Warriors, especially the rules of the game in the '80s. But even today's game, I think the Pistons were athletic and gifted enough to adapt. Thomas and Dumars could definitely match up with Curry and Thompson.
But again we are just splitting hairs. No doubt James had the easier road to the finals in the EC. But James has had much harder competition in the finals. Not one but 2 dynasties. I can play that game too. Jordan's Bulls would have had no chance against the Warriors after they added Durant. No one could have beaten that team. James also lost to them in '15 with Irving and Love out with injuries. Do the Bulls beat them without Pippen and Rodman? Not likely.
Nick Anderson missing 4 straight FTs to clinch Game 1 didn't help.
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I'm amazed the Rockets swept that Magic team in '95. I was convinced the Magic would win in 5.
Nick Anderson missing 4 straight FTs to clinch Game 1 didn't help.
Good point. That was a huge turning point...
But again we are just splitting hairs. No doubt James had the easier road to the finals in the EC. But James has had much harder competition in the finals. Not one but 2 dynasties. I can play that game too. Jordan's Bulls would have had no chance against the Warriors after they added Durant. No one could have beaten that team. James also lost to them in '15 with Irving and Love out with injuries. Do the Bulls beat them without Pippen and Rodman? Not likely.
No chance? Really? The Bulls had four high level, elite defenders - Jordan, Pippen, Harper, and Rodman. How many did the Warriors have? Who would Curry guard? And who would guard Jordan?
Because I know Pippen or Rodman can switch up on Durant to make things at least uncomfortable. And I know Jordan, Pippen and Harper can match-up and switch on Curry and Thompson- no problem.
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Ever? You don't think James having to face the Warriors was as big a challenge as the Bad Boys were for Jordan?
I mean to just get to the Finals out of the East.
Personally, I think the Pistons would comfortably handle the Warriors, especially the rules of the game in the '80s. But even today's game, I think the Pistons were athletic and gifted enough to adapt. Thomas and Dumars could definitely match up with Curry and Thompson.
I have a lot of respect for those Pistons teams. But “comfortably handle”? I don’t care what rules you put in place- the Warriors would be massive favorites against the Bad Boys.
I have a lot of respect for those Pistons teams. But “comfortably handle”? I don’t care what rules you put in place- the Warriors would be massive favorites against the Bad Boys.
That team had three HoFamers - Dumars, Thomas, and Rodman. That is an all-time great back court. I really don't like defending them, because they were a very dirty team, but they were a great collection of players who played hard both ways.
Not sure how old you are, but that team was a GREAT perimeter defensive team. All time...
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But again we are just splitting hairs. No doubt James had the easier road to the finals in the EC. But James has had much harder competition in the finals. Not one but 2 dynasties. I can play that game too. Jordan's Bulls would have had no chance against the Warriors after they added Durant. No one could have beaten that team. James also lost to them in '15 with Irving and Love out with injuries. Do the Bulls beat them without Pippen and Rodman? Not likely.
No chance? Really? The Bulls had four high level, elite defenders - Jordan, Pippen, Harper, and Rodman. How many did the Warriors have? Who would Curry guard? And who would guard Jordan?
Because I know Pippen or Rodman can switch up on Durant to make things at least uncomfortable. And I know Jordan, Pippen and Harper can match-up and switch on Curry and Thompson- no problem.
Yes. No chance. It doesn't matter if you put it in the hand-checking era or not. Those Warriors teams were the greatest 3 point shooting teams of all time. And that will always outlast Jordan's mid range jumper or James driving to the basket.
The 90s bulls were great defensive teams. That would not stop a wide open 3 point shot.
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I have a lot of respect for those Pistons teams. But “comfortably handle”? I don’t care what rules you put in place- the Warriors would be massive favorites against the Bad Boys.
That team had three HoFamers - Dumars, Thomas, and Rodman. That is an all-time great back court. I really don't like defending them, because they were a very dirty team, but they were a great collection of players who played hard both ways.
Not sure how old you are, but that team was a GREAT perimeter defensive team. All time...
And how about the offensive end?
Did you watch those Warriors teams? You think they “comfortably handle” the 2018 Warriors? Doubt they take 1 game in a series.
Yes. No chance. It doesn't matter if you put it in the hand-checking era or not. Those Warriors teams were the greatest 3 point shooting teams of all time. And that will always outlast Jordan's mid range jumper or James driving to the basket.
The 90s bulls were great defensive teams. That would not stop a wide open 3 point shot.
I couldn't disagree more, but I respect your opinion. I have zero doubt Dumars and Thomas could have expanded their range and created defensive disruption. Curry can't guard anyone on that Piston team. Do you want to get into a bench comparison?
And how about the offensive end?
Did you watch those Warriors teams? You think they “comfortably handle” the 2018 Warriors? Doubt they take 1 game in a series.
What about it the offensive end? Jordan is the greatest offensive player ever and would have no problem scoring.
And the Bulls - again - could throw enough size and prowess to make Curry uncomfortable. Harper, Jordan and Pippen were great on ball defenders.
Jordan has even said that Harper was one of his most difficult defenders to deal with when Harp was in Cleveland...
It was LT, and there isn't anyone else in the picture, really. And its likely there never will be...
It was LT, and there isn't anyone else in the picture, really. And its likely there never will be...
I agree LT was the best defender I ever saw. I never saw guys like Ditka, Deacon Jones, etc, but Reggie White and Ronnie Lott was...
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Yes. No chance. It doesn't matter if you put it in the hand-checking era or not. Those Warriors teams were the greatest 3 point shooting teams of all time. And that will always outlast Jordan's mid range jumper or James driving to the basket.
The 90s bulls were great defensive teams. That would not stop a wide open 3 point shot.
I couldn't disagree more, but I respect your opinion. I have zero doubt Dumars and Thomas could have expanded their range and created defensive disruption. Curry can't guard anyone on that Piston team. Do you want to get into a bench comparison?
Yes please. Let's keep this going. I know it is hard to argue against the 2 greatest players ever but those Warriors teams were unstoppable. So I definitely want to hear your argument. I am not sure how anyone, could defend them. The NBA has changed because shocker, the players all realized that 3 points is far more valuable than 2. And the greatest 3 point shooting backcourt of all time added the 2nd best player in the NBA to their roster. So yes, I can say that the 90s Bulls would have no shot.
However, if Jordan played today, he would have adapted and become a dominant 3 point shooter. But as we have the rosters today, no, the Bulls would have had no chance at beating the '18 Warriors.
- 96 Bulls vs 2018 Warriors is a different story. I’m taking the Bulls in 7 in a very close series.
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debate is that, in contrast, there is no debate about who was the greatest NFL defensive player of all time.
It was LT, and there isn't anyone else in the picture, really. And its likely there never will be...
I agree LT was the best defender I ever saw. I never saw guys like Ditka, Deacon Jones, etc, but Reggie White and Ronnie Lott was...
Don't know why this got caught off, but should say...were great, great defenders, too.
Yes please. Let's keep this going. I know it is hard to argue against the 2 greatest players ever but those Warriors teams were unstoppable. So I definitely want to hear your argument. I am not sure how anyone, could defend them. The NBA has changed because shocker, the players all realized that 3 points is far more valuable than 2. And the greatest 3 point shooting backcourt of all time added the 2nd best player in the NBA to their roster. So yes, I can say that the 90s Bulls would have no shot.
However, if Jordan played today, he would have adapted and become a dominant 3 point shooter. But as we have the rosters today, no, the Bulls would have had no chance at beating the '18 Warriors.
When you win 6 titles in 8 years - like the Bulls did - but you say they would have "no chance" despite having the greatest player ever and one of the greatest "Robins" ever it's hard to have a rational discussion.
Just to add another wrinkle, ANY of the Lakers and Celtics teams of the '80s beat the Warriors over a seven games series, too. Those teams were epic. But they weren't nearly as good defensively as the Bulls...
I am really not trying to argue too much here, and I really like you as a poster. I am just pointing out that for 2 years we saw an unstoppable 3 point shooting team that could only ever be outmatched by a better 3 point shooting team. Jordan and James never had such a team.
But I firmly believe those Bulls teams, either of the three peat versions, had enough defensive firepower to wear Curry down offensively. And expose him on the defensive end.
Look, IMV, Jordan is the ultimate X factor in this because I know the Warriors would have no answer for him. He'd put so much pressure on them defensively that I think they would ultimately crack having to deal with his relentlessness. Simply put, he was the greatest big moment player I have ever seen.
Can you imagine if Jordan had been able to recruit the top players in the league to play for the Bulls?
He'd have won 9 straight titles and 9 straight MVPs.
Lebron is top 10 all time but the era he plays in, for me, limits how high up the list he can rank.
He played before offensive fouls and palming the ball instead of dribbling became extinct, thanks largely to the promotional protection of MJ.
But previously illegal spectacularly athletic drives to the basket was the juice the NBA needed to become more marketable.
He played before offensive fouls and palming the ball instead of dribbling became extinct, thanks largely to the promotional protection of MJ.
But previously illegal spectacularly athletic drives to the basket was the juice the NBA needed to become more marketable.
I do think that LeBron is much more the evolutionary Oscar - even the personalities are similar. Players who had all the tools and could carry the game in any way needed.
LeBron is very much a super-sized, super-athletic Oscar.
My point was that they were so unbelievably great from 3 that the only way to beat them was to shoot better from 3, and the Bulls did not have that firepower. You are right, the Warriors would have had no answer for Jordan, but why would they need one? For those 2 years the only team that ever came close to beating them were the Harden/Paul Rockets. Another great 3 point shooting team.
Also yes, the Bulls were great, great defensive teams. But how do you wear down guys standing wide open in the corner nailing 3s? The Warriors also had a bunch of scrappy defenders like Green and Iguodala, who btw could also hit 3s.
It’s reasonable to assume the Jordan and Pippen guarding even just locking down Thompson changes that entire teams dynamic. No one on those GS teams were locking down Jordan, the X factor.
No idea who’d win but GS would need to be on fire from 3 to get it done, IMO.