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| By winning his fourth NBA title, LeBron James has not only just leaped into history, he’s also leaped over Michael Jordan in the heated, ongoing debate over which player is greatest. James scored 28 points and had a triple-double Sunday to lead the Los Angeles Lakers to the franchise’s 17th NBA title. There has not been another NBA superstar to lead three different teams to a championship: not Jordan, not Magic Johnson, not Kobe Bryant. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar led the Milwaukee Bucks to a title and then helped the Lakers win five, but no one has matched James. Indeed, the most important element in leapfrogging James over Jordan is what James has done off the court. What James has accomplished outside of basketball has elevated his stature in the pantheon of Black athlete activists. |
Also, saying that Jordan could have won without Pippen,but Pippen could not have won without Jordan makes only one argument: that Jordan was better than Pippen. Who argued to the contrary?
Pippen finished in the TOp 10 of MVP voting 5 times. The year Jordan retired, Pippen came in 3rd in MVP voting, was 1st team All-NBA, and that Bulls team won 55 games. Pippen was a great player, arguably the best perimeter defender of all-time, and a huge part of the Bulls championships.
Also, saying that Pippen was the best complementary player that Jordan could have ever asked for only solidifies part of the larger argument. Jordan didn't have to leave Chicago to find success, because the Bulls brought the mountain to Muhammad. He was set up with great complementary pieces and Phil Jackson. He didn't have to leave.
I can't fault LeBron because he wasn't given the same opportunity with the team that drafted him. He gave them 7 seasons to give them better pieces than Donyell Marshall, Eric Snow, and Anderson Varejao.
How did James respond?
With a 28-point, 14-rebound, 10-assist masterpiece in a series-clinching Game 6 blowout.
As great players do.
As the greatest of all-time does.
Debate Jordan vs. James now, but remember—James is far from finished. Davis is 27 and will likely sign a five-year, max-level extension with the Lakers this summer. Kyle Kuzma is on the books for $3.5 million next season. The Lakers can bring the rest of this group back on short term deals—and still project the $30-plus million in salary cap space they could have in the summer of 2021.
As James accepted his Finals MVP trophy, Davis barked in his ear.
Greatest of all time, Davis said.
He might be right now. Inevitably, he will be.
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Let's forget MJ for a second.
If you think Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, or Shaq had a better career than LeBron; you're simply wrong at this point. LeBron is quite clearly the superior player and had the superior career. Kareem/Russell/Wilt are so hard to compare to modern post-3pt explosion players, but I think LeBron is pretty clearly ahead of Wilt at this point since Wilt struggled to stay focused on winning (Wilt remains the GOAT pure athlete in sports history).
So IMO, the absolute lowest you can put LeBron is 4th all-time. The Mt. Rushmore of Basketball is Russell/Kareem/Jordan/LeBron and all of them have different arguments for GOAT. Sure, I think MJ has the best argument, but the other 3 have valid arguments too and you'd be a fool to think otherwise.
MJ's argument is that at his best, he was simply a more reliable offensive force than anyone ever including LeBron. MJ was able to score at will in a way no one else really could replicate, even Kobe and Wilt struggled to score in the playoffs relatively speaking. And he was also an elite defensive player on top of it. MJ is the consensus GOAT and my personal GOAT for a reason. But...
Times leading Champion in PTS/REBS/AST during Finals:
LeBron James 4x ('12, '13, '16, '20)
Tim Duncan 1x ('03)
Magic Johnson 1x ('87)
Julius Erving 1x ('76)
Despite being on a team with an in his prime Anthony friggin' Davis who was playing at an extremely high level, LeBron was still CLEARLY the Finals MVP and best player on the team in his 17th season. He led a Championship winning team in PTS/REB/AST in the Finals for the 4th time in his career, it's only been done 3 other times in league history by 3 absolute legends of the sport in the generally accepted Peak season of each of their respective careers. LeBron is making historical performance look routine.
Career Playoff Rank
Points: 1st (by a mile)
Assists: 2nd (trailing Magic)
Rebounds: 6th (trailing Russell/Wilt/Duncan/Shaq/Kareem)
Just look at that shit. More points than anyone. Only trailing the GOAT PG when it comes to assists. Only trailing the 5 GOAT Bigs when it comes to rebounds. He's one of the most versatile players ever to say the least.
Again, MJ is my GOAT but LeBron is inching closer and reframing the argument. If he wins another ring and continues to extend the longevity advantage, I might change my mind and give him the nod at some point. Just an absolutely Legendary athlete.
Lebrun is great, no doubt
But Jordan is still a level, albeit small, above him
Jordon was ridiculous, just like Gretzky
LeBron is also single handedly ruining the game and fan base that MJ built.
The game today has athletes with a higher level of agility, speed, and bounce than ever before. It might not be as physical, but it routinely has 6'10 players going coast to coast and 7 footers hitting step-back 3's.
It's a different style of basketball with more emphasis on spacing. Jordan could have dominated today, and LeBron would have dominated then.
LeBron would have knocked Laimbeer on his ass (he was bigger than him). And then LeBron would have been able to impose his freakish speed-strength combo on the defensive end where he would be bigger than the people he guarded.
It cuts both ways.
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the argument is that LeBron winning with three different franchises/coaches shows that he isn't tethered to any particular system, coach, teammate, organizations.
Whether that's ultimately persuasive is up for debate. Jordan was amazing, but he never won without Pippen and he never won without Phil. Could he have? Perhaps, but we've never seen it.
It's similar to an evaluation of Tom Brady. Exceptional career, absolutely a champion and one of the greats. But how much of his success was due to him, and how much was due to Belichick and the system? Until this year in Tampa, we haven't seen him lead a winner outside of that ecosystem. It's not his fault as he hasn't had the opportunity, it's just another variable.
Did you watch that era of baskeball? Just curious. Pippen wasn't the reason Jordan won. He was another really good player on that team. But Jordan could've done it with a Larry Johnson or a Sean Elliott as a complimentary player. There's no substitute to watching his greatness during that era.
Scottie Pippen went to Houston in '98 with Barkley and Olajuwon and that team didn't do squat, with some pretty good role players on that team, too.
I have never understood the "Jordan didn't win anything without Pippen" BS. Pippen joined the team for MJ's 4th season and played with him every year after that. What choice did he have? What was MJ supposed to do? Kick him off the team to prove he could win without him? MJ failing to win before Pippen had everything to do with MJ still being a young player and the Bulls still being a crap organization, just like Lebron didn't even make the playoffs until his 3rd season and even then he got eliminated in the Eastern Semis. Very few players come in and just dominate and win championships their first couple years in the league.
Lebron lost two Finals (including one to the Mavs) with Wade/Bosh. The consensus is that Wade and Bosh are ranked ahead of Pippen and Rodman/Grant (respectively) in terms of all-time great players. There is no way MJ would have ever lost to the Mavs in 6 games with Wade/Bosh dead in the middle of this prime. Just imagine that. That's really all we need to know for this debate.
I have plenty of respect for Lebron and he's #2 on my all-time greatest list. I also give him a lot of credit for coming back from down 3-1 against a 73 win Warriors team in the 2016 Finals-- that may be the most impressive single-season accomplishment of all-time. But in terms of a "greatest ever" debate no one touches MJ.
LBJ left the Cavs because they were a dumpster fire of an organization that would never have had a chance of sniffing a lottery player like Pippen because he was too good and he couldn't get anyone to come play in Cleveland. He tried to recruit Bosh to Cleveland before he jumped ship to Miami.
He was also on the clearly inferior team for all of his finals appearances aside from the Mavs (a huge stain on his resume) and the Heat this year. You could certainly agrue OKC as well but to me that was a push since they had Harden as well. I also don't buy that James would not have succeeded in Jordan's era. Do you really think LeBron at 6'9, 250 would have feared playing against Bill Laimbeer, Rick Mahorn and John Salley?
I will give the nod to Jordan, but there is absolutely an argument to be made for James, especially if he is able to win another title.
I just have a problem with stating that winning in multiple places being a bigger achievement. Just makes no sense to me especially since it wasn't evn organic. The guy literally handpicked his fellow mercenaries and even then it took a long time for it to workout the way he wanted. Its actually one of the only ways to definitively compare eras - "teaming up" wasn't possible back then.
Give me 6-0 all day and twice on Sunday's. Just not even remotely close, can't even see why its a debate. Perfection + more rings is somehow inferior to imperfection and less rings?
I've got a bridge to sell you.
Keep the articles coming, Stan!
Peak NBA for me was actually just after Jordan's 6th. Those Kings/Blazers/Lakers Western conference slugfests were the peak for me in terms of interest in the league. This was post Jordan and pre- Derrick Rose Bulls which is weird considering that I'm a Bulls fan. My interest was never higher than the 04 finals, Detroit taking down the Lakers.
Some of that has to do with my age - I was super young during the Jordan years, but it also has to do with what I find interesting in basketball. Similar to the old big east, things just aren't like they were and change isn't always a good thing. The current NBA bores me to tears.
LBJ left the Cavs because they were a dumpster fire of an organization that would never have had a chance of sniffing a lottery player like Pippen because he was too good and he couldn't get anyone to come play in Cleveland. He tried to recruit Bosh to Cleveland before he jumped ship to Miami.
He was also on the clearly inferior team for all of his finals appearances aside from the Mavs (a huge stain on his resume) and the Heat this year. You could certainly agrue OKC as well but to me that was a push since they had Harden as well. I also don't buy that James would not have succeeded in Jordan's era. Do you really think LeBron at 6'9, 250 would have feared playing against Bill Laimbeer, Rick Mahorn and John Salley?
I will give the nod to Jordan, but there is absolutely an argument to be made for James, especially if he is able to win another title.
The Heat were heavy favorites against the Spurs in the ‘13 Finals. The Heat were the Vegas favorites at the beginning of every year for the 4 years of the Big 3. The Thunder won 1 more game than the Heat that regular season and were slightly favored at the start of that series but I wouldn’t say the Heat were “clearly the inferior team” by any means. Part of the Thunder being slight favorites had to do with the concept still strong in people’s minds at the time that Lebron was a choke artist (the loss to the Mavs was the year before). Harden in 2012 was not the Harden of today. Same with Westbrook. You could make an argument for both those players being top 5 today, but not back then— they’ve both worked their asses off to improve their all around games. Harden technically wasn’t even a starter on that team.
Also— the reason the Bulls were the favorites to win every time was because of Jordan. MJ was the reason they were the superior team, so I never fully understand that argument. Give MJ a prime Wade and Bosh and I don’t see how anyone could ever say any one of those Thunder/Spurs teams would be superior.
And a lot of people talk about that era as though MJ had no competition. Like 1) He certainly had competition in the East... 2) that Jazz team could very well have been a dynasty if not for the Bulls beating them. Malone very well may have been the greatest PF if all time and Stockton was a top 3 PG of all time, and they had legendary chemistry together and a number of other very good players around them.
Lebron on the other hand never had any competition in the East, which is why he walked into the finals every year (often of course just to have his ass handed to him by a superior west team). Pointing out that Lebron lost to the Warriors certainly helps defend his legacy, but it isn’t a good argument for why he should be the greatest of all time IMO.
One more thing for people who wanna walk about lack of competition in Jordan’s title runs: Lebron to get his 4th just had clearly the easiest title walk of any of the 10 titles the two have between them. Because 1) AD is a valuable talent like no other that neither MJ nor Bron ever had before, and 2) they didn’t even Have to play the 2 other best teams in the league (the Clippers and the Bucks).
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Jordan had was more competition to deal with then Lebron. Most of the NBA is full of crap teams today..back in the 80's you had a elvel playing field and wars were fought. The NBA today is soft, No inside game. Lebron would get his ass kick by Bill Lambieer or Charles Oakley with his game.
Good call on the Heat being favored in 13, but I still maintain that those Spurs teams were more complete, better overall teams with the addition of Leonard in 2011.
James can never top Jordan's 6-0 finals record, but to me it is silly to hold his '07 loss to the Spurs with that sorry ass Cavs team he dragged there or his losses to the Warriors against him. He probably could have beaten them in '15 if Irving and Love were healthy but he had no shot once they added Durant. No one did.
I am not denying that Jordan had really tough competition en route to his titles but serious question because I really only remember the last 2 finals against the Jazz. Did Jordan's Bulls ever have to play a team as good as the dynasty Warriors?
Although I agree James is a truly great player, his attitude and antics would not have played well in Jordan's era and the daily grind would have taken it's toll.
Perhaps not early on, but certainly a few short seasons after.
LeBron's ego would be writing checks his body could not keep paying. His inability to blend with a coach and front office would have backfired vs running his own show.
If Jordan did not take a sabbatical to play baseball he would have won additional titles. To not forget should the Bulls have hung on for one more season (a short season) 70% another title. More fact than the fiction your posting.
The NFL game last night had twice as many viewers as the NBA Finals game lol
Go look at the ratings on those 90's finals - couldn't be a bigger contrast.
NO ONE CARES.
I don't think anyone in their 30s really understands the athletic freak Jordan was. Especially when his first five years in the league before he won his first title. His speed, quickness and jumping ability were extraordinary. He was fearless going to the hole in a much more physically demanding game and thrived due to that athleticism. And every night he was THE best on the ball and help side defender in the league. The only player who even comes close with Bryant.
Further, the burden Jordan embraced to be the guy who would takeover the scoring demands when the game was on the line is an incredible characteristic. He absolutely thrived on that pressure. Demanded it. That totally relaxed the rest of the team knowing they had the greatest closer ever in the history of sports.
At the end of the day, it's an easy conclusion for me. If my life was on the line and I needed someone to make a shot, it's Jordan all day, any day. And if I need a guy to lock down the other team's best scorer, assuming it's not the center, Jordan is that guy, too.
LeBron is a spectacular player. But Jordan rarely wilted in the big moment. LeBron has quite a few of those on his resume to account for...
People really don’t think Lebron could play in the 80s and 90s? Do you understand what physical freak and talent he is? Who’s guarding him on the Bad Boys? Who was guarding him on the Utah Jazz? To me he’s the greatest athlete that ever played the sport. Look at his sheer size, speed, skill and intelligence. One of the smartest players ever.
I understand not liking some of his stuff off the court. But if you can’t enjoy and recognize his greatness on the court you either know zero about hoops or simply just hate the guy.
And the posters saying Davis carried this team is a complete joke.
People really don’t think Lebron could play in the 80s and 90s? Do you understand what physical freak and talent he is? Who’s guarding him on the Bad Boys? Who was guarding him on the Utah Jazz? To me he’s the greatest athlete that ever played the sport. Look at his sheer size, speed, skill and intelligence. One of the smartest players ever.
No doubt LBJ could play in the 80s and 90s. And I have absolutely no doubt Jordan would average 40-45ppg in today's more one space/no hand check rules.
Disagree on LBJ being a better athlete than Jordan. Jordan was faster (was clocked at 4.3 in the forty at UNC), much quicker and jumped higher.
6-0 doesn't define MJ. It's very impressive, but he is so much bigger than that.
Who was a better basketball player, '88-'90 MJ or '96-'98 MJ?
IMO, '88-'90 MJ was pretty clearly the superior player even if he won 0 rings during that stretch vs. the 3 in '96-'98. Young MJ was an unstoppable force of nature who set the world on fire in a way no other athlete has, yet he didn't win any rings these years so he's just a fucking loser right?
No, he was better in '88-'90 but in '96-'98 he had a better Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson along with a very deep cast in a terribly mediocre Expansion era NBA. But there's no way you can watch '98 MJ play and then watch '90 MJ play and think the '98 version was better. Wiser and more tricks up his sleeve? Sure. But better? Hell no. So there's more to this than just rings. Don't disrespect '88-'90 MJ like that.
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“The best and most ‘complete’ player I have seen in my lifetime is @KingJames on and off the floor,” long-time Jordan nemesis Isiah Thomas tweeted Thursday. “He passed the eye test and the numbers confirm what my eyes have seen in every statistical category. #GOAT let it be known!”
What a source - Isaiah Thomas. He's never liked Jordan, especially after Jordan further destroyed him in the "Last Dance", and now he's supporting LBJ. Shocker...
Well, it doesn’t and 6-0 is a massive reason why. And Stan isn’t even discussing which he never does, he just posts links of other opinions since he can’t think for himself.
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“The best and most ‘complete’ player I have seen in my lifetime is @KingJames on and off the floor,” long-time Jordan nemesis Isiah Thomas tweeted Thursday. “He passed the eye test and the numbers confirm what my eyes have seen in every statistical category. #GOAT let it be known!”
How about someone with a Lakers connection.
I posted this above the timing was serendipitous but we had a company wide zoom meeting with Magic Johnson today.
At the end was a Q&A and someone asked him some work question but then followed it up with "who is the GOAT, MJ or LeBron?"
And Magic didn't hesitate, he said Jordan without question and went on to explain why.
He had good things to say about LeBron but he's probably the most unbiased person on this topic or close.
Well, it doesn’t and 6-0 is a massive reason why. And Stan isn’t even discussing which he never does, he just posts links of other opinions since he can’t think for himself.
Stan is Stan lol. He's been anti-MJ, anti-Tiger, anti-Federer, and is probably anti-"popular GOAT choice" in several other sports. Either he likes to be contrarian when it comes to GOAT debates or he just hates Nike, or a bit of both.
I think the "3 different Franchises" thing is being talked about too much when it comes to LeBron. It's definitely impressive and does have meaning. But it's a different era so it's hard to compare modern athletes who move around in Free Agency to players from the past.
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People really don’t think Lebron could play in the 80s and 90s? Do you understand what physical freak and talent he is? Who’s guarding him on the Bad Boys? Who was guarding him on the Utah Jazz? To me he’s the greatest athlete that ever played the sport. Look at his sheer size, speed, skill and intelligence. One of the smartest players ever.
No doubt LBJ could play in the 80s and 90s. And I have absolutely no doubt Jordan would average 40-45ppg in today's more one space/no hand check rules.
Disagree on LBJ being a better athlete than Jordan. Jordan was faster (was clocked at 4.3 in the forty at UNC), much quicker and jumped higher.
Jordan was a great athlete, no doubt. A 4.38 40? Perhaps. What did he weigh in college, 185-195 pounds?
Jordan's playing weight ranged from 195-215. He was probably 180-195 in college (40 time age). That he was a little quicker with a little more bounce than LeBron whose playing weight ranged from 250-275 is unsurprising.
But I think what LeBron could do at his size-- his explosion, speed, vertical. His first step. His stride. That speed-strength combo of freakishness is rivaled only by Wilt on the court. Not to mention his insane durability.
Michael Jordan is an exceptional athlete (and even better basketball player than athlete). LeBron is an alien. A true freak of nature.
6-0 doesn't define MJ. It's very impressive, but he is so much bigger than that.
Who was a better basketball player, '88-'90 MJ or '96-'98 MJ?
IMO, '88-'90 MJ was pretty clearly the superior player even if he won 0 rings during that stretch vs. the 3 in '96-'98. Young MJ was an unstoppable force of nature who set the world on fire in a way no other athlete has, yet he didn't win any rings these years so he's just a fucking loser right?
No, he was better in '88-'90 but in '96-'98 he had a better Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson along with a very deep cast in a terribly mediocre Expansion era NBA. But there's no way you can watch '98 MJ play and then watch '90 MJ play and think the '98 version was better. Wiser and more tricks up his sleeve? Sure. But better? Hell no. So there's more to this than just rings. Don't disrespect '88-'90 MJ like that.
Good post. People get hung up on 6-0, when really it should be 6-9 as he played 15 seasons, not 6. It's not a knock, it's recognition that his entire career should be considered when discussing his greatness. And if you only focus on the 6, then you dismiss the insane shit he did in the 80s.
What an amazing player/career.
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“The best and most ‘complete’ player I have seen in my lifetime is @KingJames on and off the floor,” long-time Jordan nemesis Isiah Thomas tweeted Thursday. “He passed the eye test and the numbers confirm what my eyes have seen in every statistical category. #GOAT let it be known!”
You're kidding right? Zeke & MJ hate one another like RFK & Hoffa.
91 finals. He said Jordan basically toyed with them.
he cited the famous play when Jordan was driving the lane with the ball in his right hand and went up and all the Lakers in the lane went up and he switched hands and banked it in off the backboard.
He went on for a few minutes, said nice things about LeBron, but said it wasn't close for him in saying who is the GOAT.
I think this is the play he meant. He said after this play they were all shaking their heads...
that is my takeaway from the finals.
Worse than the Cavs team from 2009-10 if you looked at them sans LeBron?
But Stan is right: LBJ is unquestionably the GOAT. Hats off to him. He earned it.
I was going to say the same thing. LBJ went to teams, they literally traded everything they had to get him the teammates he wanted, and then he jumped ship leaving the team with nothing in the cupboard.
How can you look and say that that is something that puts him on par with Jordan. Weak argument.