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| By winning his fourth NBA title, LeBron James has not only just leaped into history, he’s also leaped over Michael Jordan in the heated, ongoing debate over which player is greatest. James scored 28 points and had a triple-double Sunday to lead the Los Angeles Lakers to the franchise’s 17th NBA title. There has not been another NBA superstar to lead three different teams to a championship: not Jordan, not Magic Johnson, not Kobe Bryant. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar led the Milwaukee Bucks to a title and then helped the Lakers win five, but no one has matched James. Indeed, the most important element in leapfrogging James over Jordan is what James has done off the court. What James has accomplished outside of basketball has elevated his stature in the pantheon of Black athlete activists. |
The Bulls made the playoffs every single year Jordan was with them. He was 39 the first time a team he played on missed the playoffs.
With LeBron, the Lakers missed the playoffs last season. At age 34.
We don't know if he could have or couldn't have. We know that he didn't, which doesn't mean that he couldn't. But it does mean that you assuming he could is not any different than anyone else declaring he wouldn't have.
prove it
He didn't go 6 for 6. He went 6 for 15. It's not a knock on him-- it was an amazing career. Perhaps the best ever. But the other seasons matter, too.
We also shouldn't dismiss 1994-95 entirely. I know it's inconvenient for people who want to say that he won 6 in a row, but it's just not true. He played 17 regular season games in 1994-95 to get himself in shape. He played more minutes per game that season than any season that followed and had more rebounds and assists per game than any season that followed. His scoring ability went down. Again, he definitely had rust the shake off, but by the time the playoffs rolled around, he was at or hear his usual self.The only difference is, they lost in the playoffs. Here are his playoff numbers from the year he started winning championships. Can you spot any meaningful difference between his 94-95 season with any of the seasons that followed?
It could just be that they lost to a better Magic team (a series that started 2 months after his first game back-- plenty of time to be in shape). It could be that the 94-95 Bulls team wasn't as good as the teams that followed-- Kukoc was a rookie and then they went ahead and acquired ROdman who added a ton to that Bulls second three-peat, as teh best rebounder in the game that year and making first team all-defense.
Additionally, just assuming that if Jordan doesn't take time off would lead to 8 championships also assumes that playing two full seasons from 93-95 without taking a break to recover (baseball doesn't compare), would have no impact on his his game from 96-98. It also assumes that they beat the Magic if Jordan played the entire season based off of no evidence.
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he proved that by sh$tting on the league the next season in embarrassing fashion.
LeBron has 4 NBA Championships, and 4 Finals MVPs. He has lost in the finals 6 times.
If you want to give credit to LeBron for *making the finals, but not winning* as a means to say he is better than Jordan, I'm not sure there's any validity to that.
James played longer than Jordan, no question, he has been good for a longer period of time.
If we are talking strictly basketball performance while at their peak, it isn't close in my opinion. Michael Jordan was on another planet, and still is.
With LeBron, the Lakers missed the playoffs last season. At age 34.
...they missed the playoffs last season because James was injured. They were the 4th seed in the West without AD before he got hurt.
Yeah. LeBron has won 4 championships in 17 seasons. Made the FInals in 10 of them. Had earlier exits in other seasons.
THe point is to look at a career in its entirety. Jordan going "6 for 6" ignores the 9 other seasons where his team lost before even getting to the finals as if it's better to somehow lose earlier. That's all I'm saying.
Teams win championships. Basketball players have more influence on team success than any other sport, but it's still a team game.
If that weren't the case, then it raises the question as to why Jordan only won six championships. Was he only the best player in the league in six of his seasons? (of course not)
That isn't to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Winning six championships, with six finals MVPs is incredible. Its part of the reason that Jordan is unanimously considered one of the greatest to ever play. And if people want to use is as part of a larger argument as to why he is the single greatest player to ever live, I won't say that they are wrong. It's certainly a reasonable position to hold.
he proved that by sh$tting on the league the next season in embarrassing fashion.
It's almost as if you couldn't see right in the stats that Paul attached that MJ's playoff numbers in 1994-95 were almost identical to the years that followed. The variable was Rodman.
There is no questioning that Jordan is one of the best to ever play the game. Maybe THE fiercest competitor.
But you don't need to pretend that he was undefeated in the playoffs across an 8-year span to make your case, especially when it's not true.
They're both all-time greats. Both on the first hand if you're counting off the GOATS on your fingers. You really can't go wrong with either, although they're not really similar players at all.
If I'm starting a team from scratch, I'm taking LBJ to build around - his versatility is just too valuable to pass up. If I'm playing one game, winner take all, I'm choosing Jordan - his killer instinct is unmatched.
It's a fun debate, but I don't think you can go wrong with either side. Whether you pick Jordan or James, you're well on your way to building a champion.
The only reason he doesn't have 8 rings is because he literally stopped playing. LeBron has only gotten to 4 and has played every single season for 17 years!
The only reason he doesn't have 8 rings is because he literally stopped playing. LeBron has only gotten to 4 and has played every single season for 17 years!
There's no chance the Bulls would've won 8 in a row. Several Bulls including Steve Kerr has called it laughable to suggest 8 in a row was possible. Jordan was spent after 3 straight Finals trips, now you want him and the team to go to the Finals 5 more years in a row after that? No chance. Maybe they win 4 or 5 in a row, but if they did they wouldn't have enough in the tank to win in '97 and '98.
Horace Grant is the most underrated figure of the entire Bulls' Dynasty. Sure MJ was rusty in '95 when he came back, but the main reason they lost to the Magic is because Horace Grant signed with the Magic that year and the Bulls' team wasn't good enough around MJ.
The Rockets were also consistently the best team against the Bulls in the entire NBA during that period of time, with the Bulls having absolutely no answer for Hakeem. MJ even admitted that Hakeem was the one player who scared him. It would've been the Bulls' biggest challenge.
The ironic thing is that if MJ, straight out of a retirement and into the fire, dragged the Bulls back into the NBA Finals in '95 by going through a dominant Shaq/Penny/Grant Magic sqaud only to lose to the Hakeem/Drexler Rockets in the Finals... it would actually hurt his legacy in the eyes of many because he'd be 6-1 in the Finals instead of 6-0. Makes perfect sense.
The only reason he doesn't have 8 rings is because he literally stopped playing. LeBron has only gotten to 4 and has played every single season for 17 years!
I get the rust argument but Jordan played in 95 and lost to Orlando. That doesn't count?
And besides the 2011 Finals which Lebron deserves serious criticism for- what other Finals was he supposed to win?
And for everyone pointing to 6 rings vs 4. Lebron is not close to being done. The Lakers enter next year as the title favorite and are set up to be contend for years. And he's still the best player in the league and at the moment its not really close...
The only reason he doesn't have 8 rings is because he literally stopped playing. LeBron has only gotten to 4 and has played every single season for 17 years!
Learning isn't your strong suit, but go ahead and read the whole thread.
I'm sure it won't change your mind; you're not really that capable of critical thought from what I've experienced (and as evidenced by "I DIDN'T READ THE THREAD BUT HERE'S MY OPINION!!!!11!!ONE!!!").
If you get to pretend that Jordan was undefeated in playoff years that he actually did participate in and lost, we can also share equally plausible/fictional scenarios in which those playoff runs in '93 and '94 put a little more mileage on MJ's tires and leave him gassed in '97 and '98.
You don't get to unilaterally use make-believe to support your arguments.
He wouldn't have been gassed? He literally retired after each 3-peat, but we're supposed to just believe that he could have kept going at full speed because we didn't ever have to see him operating on fumes?
Again, because of MJ's two separate mid-career retirements, you can't actually prove that he wouldn't have been gassed if he actually attempted to go for anything more than 3 consecutive championships, but we're supposed to take it at face value that he wouldn't have been?
The NBA playoffs are a grind. I don't think it's a coincidence that MJ hung up his kicks after each 3-peat. As a matter of fact, from what we can plainly see with our own eyes, it's MUCH more likely that MJ would not have been able to extend either championship streak beyond 3 since, you know, he basically announced that he was gassed each time he did it.
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but saying that after 17 games after 1.5 yrs off gets him ready to be who he is and was... is just incorrect and silly comment.
he proved that by sh$tting on the league the next season in embarrassing fashion.
It's almost as if you couldn't see right in the stats that Paul attached that MJ's playoff numbers in 1994-95 were almost identical to the years that followed. The variable was Rodman.
There is no questioning that Jordan is one of the best to ever play the game. Maybe THE fiercest competitor.
But you don't need to pretend that he was undefeated in the playoffs across an 8-year span to make your case, especially when it's not true.
They're both all-time greats. Both on the first hand if you're counting off the GOATS on your fingers. You really can't go wrong with either, although they're not really similar players at all.
If I'm starting a team from scratch, I'm taking LBJ to build around - his versatility is just too valuable to pass up. If I'm playing one game, winner take all, I'm choosing Jordan - his killer instinct is unmatched.
It's a fun debate, but I don't think you can go wrong with either side. Whether you pick Jordan or James, you're well on your way to building a champion.
Or I watched it all live and remember it very clearly
And when mj botches an end of game play in the playoffs to lose and looks generally lost... that is rust.
40yr old mj put up as good stats as spider Mitchell and others like him this year- so stats are just that- watching it another thing
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In comment 15007682 hitdog42 said:
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but saying that after 17 games after 1.5 yrs off gets him ready to be who he is and was... is just incorrect and silly comment.
he proved that by sh$tting on the league the next season in embarrassing fashion.
It's almost as if you couldn't see right in the stats that Paul attached that MJ's playoff numbers in 1994-95 were almost identical to the years that followed. The variable was Rodman.
There is no questioning that Jordan is one of the best to ever play the game. Maybe THE fiercest competitor.
But you don't need to pretend that he was undefeated in the playoffs across an 8-year span to make your case, especially when it's not true.
They're both all-time greats. Both on the first hand if you're counting off the GOATS on your fingers. You really can't go wrong with either, although they're not really similar players at all.
If I'm starting a team from scratch, I'm taking LBJ to build around - his versatility is just too valuable to pass up. If I'm playing one game, winner take all, I'm choosing Jordan - his killer instinct is unmatched.
It's a fun debate, but I don't think you can go wrong with either side. Whether you pick Jordan or James, you're well on your way to building a champion.
Or I watched it all live and remember it very clearly
And when mj botches an end of game play in the playoffs to lose and looks generally lost... that is rust.
40yr old mj put up as good stats as spider Mitchell and others like him this year- so stats are just that- watching it another thing
I'm guessing we're about the same age or I'm a little bit older than you. You can spare me the "I saw him with my own two eyes" nonsense. I was in the building when Starks threw it down on Jordan's head in 1993. I saw plenty of prime Jordan. I know how invincible he was when he was at his peak. But I also know that he seemed incapable of maintaining that peak much longer than a few years at a time (maybe due to the intensity with which he approached the game?).
I stand by my statement. If I'm building a team from scratch, I'm taking LBJ so that I can fit the pieces around him a bit more easily (can MJ swing between PG and PF and play either at an all-star level like LeBron?), and if I'm facing a game 7 do-or-die, it's MJ for me all day.
I don't see why that would be controversial. It might not be the choice everyone would make, but you can't say it's not defensible.
In that series, Jordan played 42 mpg, and averaged 31 points, 6.5 Rebounds, 3.7 assists, 2.5 steals, and 1.8 blocks. He was awesome. His averages across the board in these categories were lower the following year in the playoffs. Obviously, stats aren't everything. But it certainly makes it harder to say that Jordan wasn't Jordan in that series, or that any drop-off was the difference with winning. And it certainly calls into question the idea that the Bulls would have won 8 in a row with Jordan when they had Jordan and lost.
Jordan was remarkable that series, so why act as if he didn't even play or if it didn't count? If Jordan was so "not Jordan" in 94-95 playoffs, then why didn't we see marked improvement in his production in the playoff years that followed when he was there the whole season?
What was different about the next year in the playoffs wasn't that Jordan was materially different. It was that the Bulls got the best rebounder (and one of the better defenders) in the history of the sport, and that along with the development of Kukoc helped re-establish the Bulls as a juggernaut.
LeBron and Michael are completely different players. Both are two of the best to ever play. You would win championships with either on your team.
However -
I'll take Bill Russell over both.
I understand in theory why that would be desirable but when you take a step back and think about how close playoff basketball games are, we are talking about a unique and pretty rare skillset that I guess you don't want for games 1-6?
If a GM starting a basketball team can't "build around Jordan" then they suck at their job. I realize I'm taking a very literal shot at that statement, but since we are talking hypotheticals, well, there's mine.
I'm taking the guy I know is going to win me big games to build my team around because he's going to....win me big games.
I'm taking the guy I know is going to win me big games to build my team around because he's going to....win me big games.
James wins big games too. I am not sure what you are getting at. We are splitting hairs here, as much as some older folks refuse to admit it. These are the two greatest basketball players that have ever lived, but they are different players, that was his point.
James offers versatility that Jordan didn't because he can play and defend any position on the floor at his size and freakish athleticism.
Yes this is splitting hairs, the whole thread is.
LeBron is also consistently one of the best late game players in the league. His "Clutch" stats (last 5 mins of a 5pt game) are literally the best of his generation. He's also literally the best Game 7 and Closeout Game player in NBA history.
I don't think that makes him more "Clutch" than MJ, obviously MJ has the edge there imo. But LeBron is up there with anyone else in the history of the league in Clutch situations. The problem is that people don't consider a rampaging late game drive and lay up by LeBron to be clutch, only way to be clutch is to make jumpers apparently.
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but saying that after 17 games after 1.5 yrs off gets him ready to be who he is and was... is just incorrect and silly comment.
he proved that by sh$tting on the league the next season in embarrassing fashion.
It's almost as if you couldn't see right in the stats that Paul attached that MJ's playoff numbers in 1994-95 were almost identical to the years that followed. The variable was Rodman.
There is no questioning that Jordan is one of the best to ever play the game. Maybe THE fiercest competitor.
But you don't need to pretend that he was undefeated in the playoffs across an 8-year span to make your case, especially when it's not true.
They're both all-time greats. Both on the first hand if you're counting off the GOATS on your fingers. You really can't go wrong with either, although they're not really similar players at all.
If I'm starting a team from scratch, I'm taking LBJ to build around - his versatility is just too valuable to pass up. If I'm playing one game, winner take all, I'm choosing Jordan - his killer instinct is unmatched.
It's a fun debate, but I don't think you can go wrong with either side. Whether you pick Jordan or James, you're well on your way to building a champion.
LeBron is also single handedly ruining the game and fan base that MJ built.
As a very very casual fan of the sport, the eye test tells me MJ was better than Lebron, as you mentioned.
That a team's championship window (Knicks) was opened by his retirement to baseball says quite a lot about how great he was.
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MJ played in an era where the game was more physical. Today, a foul is called when someone looks at you funny.. then LeBron will hit the floor like a big pussy.
LeBron is also single handedly ruining the game and fan base that MJ built.
As a very very casual fan of the sport, the eye test tells me MJ was better than Lebron, as you mentioned.
That a team's championship window (Knicks) was opened by his retirement to baseball says quite a lot about how great he was.
Likewise, a team went from Eastern Conference champions to the worst team in the sport in one year simply by losing LeBron in free agency.
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but that’s cool. What were his reasons?
91 finals. He said Jordan basically toyed with them.
he cited the famous play when Jordan was driving the lane with the ball in his right hand and went up and all the Lakers in the lane went up and he switched hands and banked it in off the backboard.
He went on for a few minutes, said nice things about LeBron, but said it wasn't close for him in saying who is the GOAT.
I think this is the play he meant. He said after this play they were all shaking their heads...
This was obviously an amazing play, but I never understood why he switched hands in the first place. It looks like he could have easily scored with his right instead of making it a circus play. Did he think someone to his right was going to block him? Again not diminishing how ridiculous a play it was but I’ve always been curious about that.
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In comment 15007081 UConn4523 said:
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but that’s cool. What were his reasons?
91 finals. He said Jordan basically toyed with them.
he cited the famous play when Jordan was driving the lane with the ball in his right hand and went up and all the Lakers in the lane went up and he switched hands and banked it in off the backboard.
He went on for a few minutes, said nice things about LeBron, but said it wasn't close for him in saying who is the GOAT.
I think this is the play he meant. He said after this play they were all shaking their heads...
This was obviously an amazing play, but I never understood why he switched hands in the first place. It looks like he could have easily scored with his right instead of making it a circus play. Did he think someone to his right was going to block him? Again not diminishing how ridiculous a play it was but I’ve always been curious about that.
I wonder the exact same thing every time I see this play. The call by Marv was great but it looks to me like he could have easily just dunked or put in a layup up with his right hand.
Ok fine. But in the debate of who is the greatest basketball player of all time why is this play ever brought up? I can say without question that James' block of Iguodala is far more historic than this unnecessary reverse layup.
I didn't bring the play up, Magic Johnson did (four days ago on a company meeting we had) as partial evidence of some of things Jordan was able to do on a basketball court that in Magic's opinion (which is probably more relevant than most of ours) helped explain that to him MJ is the GOAT and not LeBron.
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Bullshit. You are only saying this because you want this to be true. LeBron would dominate in the 80's just like Jordan would be a dominant player in today's game. As I have already stated, we are splitting hairs in this discussion. They are the greatest 2 players that have ever lived.
I want you to think hard about what you posted. Do you really think that LeBron at his size and speed would have failed in the 80's? The big centers in that era would have shit their pants with him driving to the basket.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence you used two WHITE players to make your point. I don’t think I’m going to go out on a limb here when I assume you have an issue white players in general. This place never ceases to amaze me.