Assuming nothing drastic happens and Jones is still on the team in 2021, the Giants should at least sign a veteran not to be a caddy like Colt McCoy, but to actually compete for the job.
What do we know about Judge as a coach so far? Strong game management, strong special teams. It seems to me that that lends itself to wanting a QB that above all else will take care of the football. We know Jones doesn't do that.
If we assume that the Giants don't draft a QB high in the 2021 draft, what veterans can they target to compete for the job and do something that aligns with what Judge is trying to achieve? Looking at Spotrac, three vets jump out that are scheduled to be free agents in 2021:
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Jacoby Brissett
Age on opening day 2021: 28
Starts to date: 32
NY/A: 5.58
TD%/INT%: 3.2/1.3
Fumbles/Start: .56
Tyrod Taylor
Age on opening day 2021: 32
Starts to date: 47
NY/A: 5.86
TD%/INT%: 3.9/1.4
Fumbles/Start: .43
Nick Mullens
Age on opening day 2021: 26
Starts to date: 10
NY/A: 7.27
TD%/INT%: 4.3/3.7
Fumbles/Start: .5
For comparison, here are Jones's numbers:
Daniel Jones
Age on opening day 2021: 24
Starts to date: 17
NY/A: 5.39
TD%/INT%: 4.1/2.7
Fumbles/start: 1.29
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The biggest number that should jump out is the fumbles/start. Jones's number is more than double Brissett and Mullens, and triple Taylor's.
Brissett and Taylor clearly aren't big playmakers, but they don't turn the ball over...you aren't going to win any titles with them but they can do a job for you. They can not lose the game and let the special teams, defense, and Judge's game management provide the edge over the opponent. Over the course of a season that can be worth some wins...not a Super Bowl-winning strategy but let's learn to walk before we run.
I included Mullens because while he isn't as safe with the ball as Brissett or Taylor, he does provide increased playmaking ability as evidenced by the TD% and the NY/A.
Daniel Jones has two big problems:
#1 He isn't careful with the ball.
#2 He doesn't make enough plays to overlook #1.
These three free agents don't necessarily give you the best of both worlds, but they all provide a better ratio of #1 and #2 than Jones does. Keep these guys in mind if Jones fails to make a significant improvement in these last 11 games. Barring some major changes, veteran competition should be brought in as a minimum measure.
Remember two things as these weeks pass:
1. Judge looks like a good enough game coach to win some games he shouldn't if his quarterback doesn't lose them for him. With even decent game manager quarterback play the Giants could have won against Chicago, LA, and Dallas.
2. Judge didn't draft Jones. He's not tied to him the way Gettleman/Mara are. If you don't think that matters take a look at what's happening in DC - Rivera has already essentially rid himself of Haskins, who Dan Snyder himself hand picked. How patient will Judge be if Jones continues to ruin games with turnovers and an inability to make plays?
I would add Fitzpatrick to that list. He would be a decent bridge QB option as they figure it out.
I would add Fitzpatrick to that list. He would be a decent bridge QB option as they figure it out.
Further, I'm hoping the new GM will evaluate Fields and Lance seriously, as a consolation prize. Leave no stone unturned.
Jones is not a write off yet in my mind but there are more questions then there were 5 games ago. For now though I'm rooting for him and will wait to see what happens with draft position etc. Much will depend on where we end up and how we rate the draft class.
The others might be worth a look as a bridge, but a bridge to what? If the Giants don’t draft Jones’s replacement, the least-bad option is to give him 2021 to play himself into or out of the job. Give him his first normal off-season as the starter (COVID permitting) and see what he can do in year three. Then make the decision about his fifth-year option before the 2022 draft.
Of course, if they end up with Lawrence (or Fields/Lance, for that matter), a bridge vet makes more sense.
I do believe the OL, if it stays healthy, will incrementally improve until the bye- week. The Giants will show their true selves after the bye. This was the worst year ever for a new coach to start but it is what it is.
Any comparisons to Jones with the idea that one of these guys would be the starter is just ridiculous. This franchise is NOT going to promote one of those other QBs as the starter... not happening. That is admitting that the Jones pick was a poor one and they are not going to do that until there is someone else who is the clear future of the franchise.
We are not winning championships with the other guys (not saying we are with Jones either), so making that kind of change will never happen.
Judge spoke about how he doesn’t care about where any player was drafted in his intro presser. While he’s been supportive of Jones to date, I’m sure he’s very frustrated behind closed doors. Jones is killing this team with turnovers right now, and the argument can be made this team is 3-2 with adequate QB play.
Right now Jones is Jameis Winston without the explosive plays.
As for above, Brissett is a guy that makes sense. He was in the building with Judge in Foxboro (not that they worked together), but he’s familiar with the program.
"It is time for him to state his case, time for him to remind Giants fans suddenly fearing that he is not The Guy of the rookie quarterback (24 TDs, 12 INTs) who took the torch from Eli Manning and ran with it. He has looked more like a rookie quarterback this season than he did as a rookie, and you can’t fault Giants fans for dreaming the same Trevor Lawrence dream that Jets fans are dreaming given the third-year wall that Sam Darnold has run into." -Steve Serby
Link - ( New Window )
You didn’t read the thread I guess. The point is a better backup should be brought in for competition.
You’d think there’d be more frustration with Jones who is turning the ball over at a ridiculous pace. People just assume Jones will be Simms or Eli I guess.
Eli was widely viewed as the #1 pick in the draft in 2004. Jones is nowhere near the QB prospect Eli was. There’s a reason there was so much shock Jones was picked #6.
I would agree with those who preach caution, because picking a QB is not simple. Look at the struggles of recent heralded prospects Winston, Darnold, Haskins and Rosen. Mayfield has been up and down. Only Allen and Jackson (and Murray) have met or exceeded expectations. Lawrence, Field and Lance are this year's flavors of the month, but no one really knows. Give Jones more time but don't allow the team to become shackled by another DG mistake if he cannot get it done by the end of this season.
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That’s it. That’s the only plan.
To judge Jones on 5 games with a limited off-season and a new system combined with poor personnel is ludicrous.
I do believe the OL, if it stays healthy, will incrementally improve until the bye- week. The Giants will show their true selves after the bye. This was the worst year ever for a new coach to start but it is what it is.
Logical posts aren’t wanted here. Horrible line play worst in the nfl. No skill guys to speak of. No threat of a running game. Yea! It’s jones fault! Look at the pressure stats from the Dallas game. 23 pressures on 41 attempts. Let’s not look at QB like he’s a pitcher. He needs to have complimentary talent around him.
Skins offense is terrible but their front 7 should get at least 6 sacks
Also, who knows if another QB would be in the cards, but Trevor Lawrence isn't the only draftable QB, from the looks of it, Justin Fields, Kyle Trask and Mac Jones look pretty darn intriguing as well.
He needs time. Peyton threw a ton of ints through 16 games and we were yelling about benching Eli for his first 3 years. QBs don't develop over night.
What draft pick do they have? If they have 1 or 2, hard to see Jones played better, i was one who said trade for a haul BUT i am starting to lean toward takong Lawrence or Fields..
Does anyone in the NFC east have their QB?
Either you believe Jones can be the guy or you draft the guy. None of those 3 players listed is worth wasting time on as "competition". If you want to bring in Tyrod to be the backup in case you decide to give Jones one more year and he fails, fine. But not as competition. Tyrod isn't the long term answer.
What draft pick do they have? If they have 1 or 2, hard to see Jones played better, i was one who said trade for a haul BUT i am starting to lean toward takong Lawrence or Fields..
Does anyone in the NFC east have their QB?
Good post. Still 11 games to be played. Jones has A LOT to prove though.
What draft pick do they have? If they have 1 or 2, hard to see Jones played better, i was one who said trade for a haul BUT i am starting to lean toward takong Lawrence or Fields..
Does anyone in the NFC east have their QB?
Despite the injury I still think the Cowboys roll long term with Dak and the Eagles move forward with Wentz.
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How do the giants end the season? Does Jones get comfortable in the offense and they start to score more points and win a few games?
What draft pick do they have? If they have 1 or 2, hard to see Jones played better, i was one who said trade for a haul BUT i am starting to lean toward takong Lawrence or Fields..
Does anyone in the NFC east have their QB?
Despite the injury I still think the Cowboys roll long term with Dak and the Eagles move forward with Wentz.
You still giving dak 35 million? will be a real interesting negotiation, plus dallas is going to have to create salary space..
Wentz i wouldnt be to sure, if he doesnt start playing better they are ready to see what Hurts has..
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In comment 15007448 nygiants16 said:
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How do the giants end the season? Does Jones get comfortable in the offense and they start to score more points and win a few games?
What draft pick do they have? If they have 1 or 2, hard to see Jones played better, i was one who said trade for a haul BUT i am starting to lean toward takong Lawrence or Fields..
Does anyone in the NFC east have their QB?
Despite the injury I still think the Cowboys roll long term with Dak and the Eagles move forward with Wentz.
You still giving dak 35 million? will be a real interesting negotiation, plus dallas is going to have to create salary space..
Wentz i wouldnt be to sure, if he doesnt start playing better they are ready to see what Hurts has..
Dak might need to suck it up and take less. Dallas might be the only place he can thrive. Him somewhere else without the array of talent he currently has there probably exposes him as a middle of the pack QB.
As for Philly: Hurts isn’t an NFL starting QB. I’d love for them to learn that one the hard way.
If you truly want somebody to compete to start, you should either draft that guy or sign a current starter that is a FA or by a trade. A trade would be a waste of resources.
Brissett, Taylor or Mullens are nothing but backup fodder - basically younger versions of McCoy.
Indecision leads to mistakes and a lack of confidence l, that s where Jones is now. I expect him to work through it, like many quarterbacks have done.
If Giants are in position to draft Lawerence, they probably should, but that s more than likely not going to happen. This team has played competitively, When they get that first win, I think you will see a momentum swing that will lead to some unexpected wins.
I m tired of hoping for draft position during the season; did that the last two years before Giants drafted Jones.
Giants have young quarterback in place, that might be the answer, I m rooting and hoping he is.
That s a lot more fun than what it s been around here. Even at 0-5, I ve been engaged in the games, caring, getting nervous and excited, feels good.
That train has left. Jones is here, and if you think Jawn is going to give up on that pick, spend another top 10 pick on a qb and go hire some vet, you are crazy. No one gives a shit what Judge thinks. He's lucky to have a job and if the team doesn't win a few games, he'll be lucky to keep it. Jones is the qb and Judge and Garrett better think of an offense to minimize his gaffes and utilize what there is of his talents. They aren't getting anyone else.
I think it's out of the question we draft Lawrence because we'll never be in a position to whether they'd want to or not. Think even Fields will be out of the question. I believe right now it's still Jones or bust. Hopefully this team can turn this thing around. Not just Jones but the whole team. Show some improvement and hopefully Jones can look more like last year's Jones.
I agree, they are not going to be in a position to draft him. However, if they have the first pick, I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised when they do draft him simply because Jones will be no one's qb in that organization (DG will be gone).
I tend to agree but at least it will make the few months after the season interesting.
Until the Giants actually win a game it's as silly to say they'll never have a chance at TL as to say they will.
Jones should still have a chance to compete even if we draft #1 in 2021, but making excuses for poor play doesn't help and will only delay the inevitable.
Earn your spot PERIOD.
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This year, the Giants need to bring in legit competition for Jones in year 3. Jones will get the 3rd year to show he is a legit top 10 qb. If not, the 2022 qb class will be stacked. There are already 3 potential top 15 candidates, and potentially another - depending on how the 2021 CFB season plays out. The Giants will likely not need the first pick to get a legitimate first round guy.
Not happening. I would be shocked if he didn't get an extension next year.
Of course, he can't get an extension until after next season. But don't let that stop you.
Yes, I will indeed be disappointed if the Giants deliberately choose to continue with the inferior QB.
What I've said is that the NYG aren't going to do it. and all of these threads about it are just going to lead to nowhere..
If the Niners want to panic and move on from Jimmy G, I'd bring him in here. The rumblings in SF have begun. He's far from perfect but he's a legit VET QB that can win games. And he's got upside. He's also got ties to the Pats.
This is beyond dumb. It's downright negligent.
Why we feel the need around here to tell the future when we don't have to ill never know.
Those three guys are backups. One a third stringer. Jones was the #6 pick in the draft. If alarm bells aren't ringing for you, you aren't paying attention.
1. Eli came into a much more difficult NFL for QB’s. The game was not geared towards rookie QB’s at that time.
2. Despite Eli’s early struggles, the flashes were there. Including game winning drives. Jones is now 0-3 with a chance to go ahead late this year in addition to the fumbles.
3. Eli was widely regarded as the #1 pick in 2004, Jones was not close to that in 2019. He was a polarizing prospect, but it seems the Giants were on an island for the #6 pick for Jones.
Lastly, isn’t the goal to win? I’m rooting for Jones, I hope he plays lights out and this team manages to win the division. However, holding onto a QB too long can really set us back even further.
As a result, even if the Giants have the first pick (and they won't, the Jets will), I don't see them taking a QB. I think there will be significant pressure from ownership to trade down in the first round. It would be very on brand for ownership to want to "shake things up" by trying something "new" and trading down.
I'll believe it when I see it. This organization is stuck in the mud.
That train has left. Jones is here, and if you think Jawn is going to give up on that pick, spend another top 10 pick on a qb and go hire some vet, you are crazy. No one gives a shit what Judge thinks. He's lucky to have a job and if the team doesn't win a few games, he'll be lucky to keep it. Jones is the qb and Judge and Garrett better think of an offense to minimize his gaffes and utilize what there is of his talents. They aren't getting anyone else.
That is just the thing they didn't appraise the talent correctly. I think it was obvious they miscalculated how bad this defense was when they went 0-2 last year. After that it was like "well let's turn this into a develop the QB year" even though the offense played well under Eli.
Those three guys are backups. One a third stringer. Jones was the #6 pick in the draft. If alarm bells aren't ringing for you, you aren't paying attention.
I never liked Brissett--he's OK but his ceiling is just that, OK. To be fair I never liked Bridgewater and he's playing well for Carolina.
This season needs to play out first. We are literally smack in the early to mid stages of a young QB's development and let's be honest, throw bias and preconceived notions aside for a second, it's very early to be forming a conclusive opinion on Jones, and this coming from someone who is admittedly concerned with his play. If it wasn't a new staff I wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but it is a new staff and the offense is not exactly taylor made right now. I need to see more. We all do. Jones could rip off a good month of play and we will all be changing our tune. Or he could play like this all year. Let me see it first.
Why we feel the need around here to tell the future when we don't have to ill never know.
only week 5? This was over week 2!
Just like last year. Another season in the books while it was still technically Summer!
People like you are going to say " but it is only his 3rd year". Before Eli won the Superbowl in his 3 rd year everyone wanted him benched too."
Lawrence was always going to be out of the equation. We were either going to take a QB in 2019 or 2020. So the argument is Jones vs Herbert or Tua.
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it is only week 5!
Why we feel the need around here to tell the future when we don't have to ill never know.
only week 5? This was over week 2!
Just like last year. Another season in the books while it was still technically Summer!
People like you are going to say " but it is only his 3rd year". Before Eli won the Superbowl in his 3 rd year everyone wanted him benched too."
Eli won in year 4
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it is only week 5!
Why we feel the need around here to tell the future when we don't have to ill never know.
only week 5? This was over week 2!
Just like last year. Another season in the books while it was still technically Summer!
People like you are going to say " but it is only his 3rd year". Before Eli won the Superbowl in his 3 rd year everyone wanted him benched too."
Um, OK. I don't know what point you're trying to make. And it's funny you bring up Eli. The same Eli who was generated threads around here that he would never win shit, in that year 3, and then he did. Apples and oranges maybe, but is it really? Eli was not good enough until he was. Get it?
I mean, just last night, Herbert started off great, had some bad throws, and then the Chargers lost the game. He had good stats, but they lost. It's the same argument for Jones last year where he played well in some games but we still ended up losing (Jets, Lions). Jones also showed some incredible ability in some games (Tampa, Wash), but again, this seems to be ignored.
Lawrence was always going to be out of the equation. We were either going to take a QB in 2019 or 2020. So the argument is Jones vs Herbert or Tua.
I honestly thought this was exactly what the Giants would do. I still think Eli was a fine caretaker here and would not have stunted anything. Giants should have just loaded on up BPAs and taken the QB when the team was staged and ready to go, but they must have really loved Jones. They better have because there's nothing more damaging to a franchise than forcing the QB pick. It is what it is now. Hope Jones gets hot.
I mean, just last night, Herbert started off great, had some bad throws, and then the Chargers lost the game. He had good stats, but they lost. It's the same argument for Jones last year where he played well in some games but we still ended up losing (Jets, Lions). Jones also showed some incredible ability in some games (Tampa, Wash), but again, this seems to be ignored.
Yep funny how that works. And I think a lot of fans are convinced that HErbert can only go up from here. We all know that can be a flawed assumption. We've seen dozens of QBs regress. And if SD has another bad year the HC might be shit canned and then guess who is learning a new system all over again.
Most QBs need to be nurtured and well insulated. Some don't but most do. And some still learn or progress at different levels. Some are dealing with more shit than others. Dak Prescott came in to a well oiled offense but he still took the bull by the horns and played at a very high level. Not all QBs are Prescott but that doesn't mean Dak is some special dying breed. It's not an exact science. That's why we all see NFL lifers who succeed with one QB in one decade fail miserably in the next decade. It's a brutally tough position to scout and judge.
So to me, it's, would the Giants be better if we took 2 good players there instead of QB and 1 player. Plenty of people think we would be better off today had we made that choice.
That being said, if we do that, and then Eli plays the whole year and we win let's say...6 or 7 games, we then miss out on QB again and then maybe have to trade up etc...ya never know. if Jones end up being very good, then it didn't matter. Remains to be seen, as most QB picks are at first.
So to me, it's, would the Giants be better if we took 2 good players there instead of QB and 1 player. Plenty of people think we would be better off today had we made that choice.
That being said, if we do that, and then Eli plays the whole year and we win let's say...6 or 7 games, we then miss out on QB again and then maybe have to trade up etc...ya never know. if Jones end up being very good, then it didn't matter. Remains to be seen, as most QB picks are at first.
Sometimes I do wonder if the Giants are more reactionary than we want to believe. 2018 it was all about how Eli isn't the problem, and I don't think he was, but one year later they couldn't wait to draft someone and bench Eli. One year that much changed? Eli didn't even look any different from 18-19 in my opinion. He just looked ordinary or a guy that doesn't completely suck but doesn't move the needle.
Giants are weird. No other way around it. They out think themselves at every turn and I do wonder if they sort of succumbed to the pressure of both going all in on Eli and then going all out. I wish I had more faith in them but they don't warrant any lately.
This is an aggravating attitude. That evidence is mounting by the week. Where is the evidence that he CAN be better than them?
Look at the numbers above. People are critical of Taylor, Brissett, and Mullens, and that's completely reasonable. Yet the evidence to this point is that they are better players than Jones. And that's without factoring in draft status. They are straight up better players.
Saying Jones will improve isn't founded in anything real. Wishing for things to happen isn't a way to run a team; though it's clearly what the front office did when they didn't bring in competition for Jones after a poor rookie season.
QB competition is important though, and DJ better be feeling pressure that his career could take a pretty damn big negative pivot without stronger play on his part. Everybody should.
The best evidence is probably that the offense as a whole sucks and the play calling is from the 1990s. Jones has the highest pressure % of any QB in the NFL since he became a starter. The Giants are a bottom 5 team in pre-snap motion rate, the WRs are among the lowest in the league in separation, and the Giants are running play action at one of the lowest rates in the league (side note, the execution of play action on Sunday was terrible). Elite QBs would be able to overcome these issues. Jones isn't an elite QB right now.
If Jones was put in an offense that played to his strengths and protected him better, I don't think we'd be having the same discussion right now. My guess is that in the right system, Jones has the ability to be an above average NFL starter. That's not great, but not terrible. It's not someone who I'd give a second contract, but it's someone who can win in the right situation.
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In comment 15007577 djm said:
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it is only week 5!
Why we feel the need around here to tell the future when we don't have to ill never know.
only week 5? This was over week 2!
Just like last year. Another season in the books while it was still technically Summer!
People like you are going to say " but it is only his 3rd year". Before Eli won the Superbowl in his 3 rd year everyone wanted him benched too."
Um, OK. I don't know what point you're trying to make. And it's funny you bring up Eli. The same Eli who was generated threads around here that he would never win shit, in that year 3, and then he did. Apples and oranges maybe, but is it really? Eli was not good enough until he was. Get it?
Bullshit! You already saw Eli what we needed to see. Heck I had a clip of his first game. He was already a good deep passer; gun slinger; throw too many pics but also threw 40 yards bombs. He was already showing glimmers of the come back kid. Jones is what Jones is. A game manager who never makes plays to win games just turns the ball over to lose games.
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In comment 15007603 Black_Flag said:
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In comment 15007577 djm said:
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it is only week 5!
Why we feel the need around here to tell the future when we don't have to ill never know.
only week 5? This was over week 2!
Just like last year. Another season in the books while it was still technically Summer!
People like you are going to say " but it is only his 3rd year". Before Eli won the Superbowl in his 3 rd year everyone wanted him benched too."
Um, OK. I don't know what point you're trying to make. And it's funny you bring up Eli. The same Eli who was generated threads around here that he would never win shit, in that year 3, and then he did. Apples and oranges maybe, but is it really? Eli was not good enough until he was. Get it?
Bullshit! You already saw Eli what we needed to see. Heck I had a clip of his first game. He was already a good deep passer; gun slinger; throw too many pics but also threw 40 yards bombs. He was already showing glimmers of the come back kid. Jones is what Jones is. A game manager who never makes plays to win games just turns the ball over to lose games.
Also I would not trust what average, entitled blowhard fan thinks. They want a QB to be just like the "right here, right now" attitude they have in normal life.
That is not the same as looking at Eli and Jones. Eli might have had bad games but there was never any doubt in my mind.
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In comment 15007603 Black_Flag said:
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In comment 15007577 djm said:
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it is only week 5!
Why we feel the need around here to tell the future when we don't have to ill never know.
only week 5? This was over week 2!
Just like last year. Another season in the books while it was still technically Summer!
People like you are going to say " but it is only his 3rd year". Before Eli won the Superbowl in his 3 rd year everyone wanted him benched too."
Um, OK. I don't know what point you're trying to make. And it's funny you bring up Eli. The same Eli who was generated threads around here that he would never win shit, in that year 3, and then he did. Apples and oranges maybe, but is it really? Eli was not good enough until he was. Get it?
Bullshit! You already saw Eli what we needed to see. Heck I had a clip of his first game. He was already a good deep passer; gun slinger; throw too many pics but also threw 40 yards bombs. He was already showing glimmers of the come back kid. Jones is what Jones is. A game manager who never makes plays to win games just turns the ball over to lose games.
Never? that is a lie..
And stop with the rewriting of history, during his first 4 years every year there was talk of benching eli..
Going into his 4th year people wanted him and coughlin gone, Eli was a turnover machine.
I mean, just last night, Herbert started off great, had some bad throws, and then the Chargers lost the game. He had good stats, but they lost. It's the same argument for Jones last year where he played well in some games but we still ended up losing (Jets, Lions). Jones also showed some incredible ability in some games (Tampa, Wash), but again, this seems to be ignored.
Jones has played, what, 17-18 games? How many good/great games? 4? And they were all last year. Against the likes of Washington, Tampa, Detroit, NYJ. The Bucs and Detroit were two of the worst pass defenses in the league. Basically every QB lit them up. And the Jets and WFT were in the bottom half of the league. On average, three of those teams gave up 27+ppg, all near the bottom of the league.
He gets the credit - of course. But there are now too many games where Jones doesn't look like a franchise QB. He looks like he just needs to much infrastructure to succeed.
I agree he gets the rest of the season to audition. But if this trend keeps up, it would be hard to keep him as the starting QB even if we don't have a top three pick. And we had better expand Terp's thesis here to find a replacement starter, not just a competitive back-up.
My guess is we win too many games to get the #1 pick, which would eliminate Lawrence. The more likely question is whether we replace Jones with another QB (Fields?). We obviously can't answer that question yet.
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In comment 15007609 djm said:
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In comment 15007603 Black_Flag said:
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In comment 15007577 djm said:
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it is only week 5!
Why we feel the need around here to tell the future when we don't have to ill never know.
only week 5? This was over week 2!
Just like last year. Another season in the books while it was still technically Summer!
People like you are going to say " but it is only his 3rd year". Before Eli won the Superbowl in his 3 rd year everyone wanted him benched too."
Um, OK. I don't know what point you're trying to make. And it's funny you bring up Eli. The same Eli who was generated threads around here that he would never win shit, in that year 3, and then he did. Apples and oranges maybe, but is it really? Eli was not good enough until he was. Get it?
Bullshit! You already saw Eli what we needed to see. Heck I had a clip of his first game. He was already a good deep passer; gun slinger; throw too many pics but also threw 40 yards bombs. He was already showing glimmers of the come back kid. Jones is what Jones is. A game manager who never makes plays to win games just turns the ball over to lose games.
Never? that is a lie..
And stop with the rewriting of history, during his first 4 years every year there was talk of benching eli..
Going into his 4th year people wanted him and coughlin gone, Eli was a turnover machine.
I was talking about myself. Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass about what the average fan who is basing a decision more on emotion than anything else and thinks winning football and the competition is the same as some of the easy middle class things they do in life. NFL is a little more competitive ;)
It's the same argument for Jones last year where he played well in some games but we still ended up losing (Jets, Lions). Jones also showed some incredible ability in some games (Tampa, Wash), but again, this seems to be ignored.
They aren't ignored, they are weighed against his other performances. Fifty percent of Jones's 26 career TD passes came in 3 games. He's had a turnover in all but one of his career games.
Herbert has played 4 games, his lowest yards/attempt is 6.7. That's higher than all but 7 of Jones's 17 starts.
None of us know what kind of career Herbert is going to have, but the same is true for Jones. Just because you want to project that his career will more closely resemble a small sample of good performances than a larger sample of mediocre/bad ones doesn't make it so.
Like you, I hope Jones is the guy, but there is mounting evidence to suggest that won't be the case.
Well look at it another way--what makes you think Jones can get better?
I think they were excited he could run the rpo but I have not seen them run it much. His arm strength is whatever. He really doesn't run and throw good. His clutch factor is nothing good right now.
Can these things get better sure. But that would have been great is he was a 3rd round pick and we spent higher draft choices on other talent but NO--we took Jones to elevate this shitshow not the other way around.
The idea that he's throwing short due to a skillset limitation isn't really valid.
Jones future in NY hinges on DG's future in NY. If a new GM comes in and evaluates DJ's film and decides not to hitch his wagon to DJ (a likely situation given his pre-draft status) - I think he's gone.
The precedent for moving on from highly rated QBs has been set ie Josh Rosen. I think Washington moves on from Haskins too.
I do think that DJ has a chance to be a Ryan Tannehill type QB though. A QB that can take a team with better pieces that have been held back by sub-par QB play.
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if you're someone who thinks Tua and Herbert are both going to have way better careers than Jones, then of course you're pissed right now. But that completely remains to be seen, there's no evidence to suggest that Jones can't be better than the 2 of them, and in fact he has shown a good amount early in his career (just as Herbert has) that he can be the guy.
I mean, just last night, Herbert started off great, had some bad throws, and then the Chargers lost the game. He had good stats, but they lost. It's the same argument for Jones last year where he played well in some games but we still ended up losing (Jets, Lions). Jones also showed some incredible ability in some games (Tampa, Wash), but again, this seems to be ignored.
Jones has played, what, 17-18 games? How many good/great games? 4? And they were all last year. Against the likes of Washington, Tampa, Detroit, NYJ. The Bucs and Detroit were two of the worst pass defenses in the league. Basically every QB lit them up. And the Jets and WFT were in the bottom half of the league. On average, three of those teams gave up 27+ppg, all near the bottom of the league.
He gets the credit - of course. But there are now too many games where Jones doesn't look like a franchise QB. He looks like he just needs to much infrastructure to succeed.
I agree he gets the rest of the season to audition. But if this trend keeps up, it would be hard to keep him as the starting QB even if we don't have a top three pick. And we had better expand Terp's thesis here to find a replacement starter, not just a competitive back-up.
Major difference between “too much infrastructure” and the bare minimum for a professional team expecting to compete. The Chargers almost ran for as many yards in the first half as the Giants average per game this season. Would you rather have Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Hunter Henry or whatever the Giants have? Read Sy’s review... both OTs sucked. How about “league average infrastructure”? Aside from Russell Wilson, which QB has elevated scrubs over the past few year? Carson Wentz lifted scrubs for a few weeks last year, keeping in mind they only beat NFC East teams with the scrubs. I don’t understand this thought that there’s this group of QBs elevating bums.
BTW, true busts like Josh Rosen don’t play well against anyone.
I'm not saying he can't get better. Shit theoretically he could become better than Patrick Mahomes. I'm not interested in what COULD be in a best case scenario. I'm interested in what IS.
And right now Daniel Jones is playing worse than the standard set by the three backups I listed, and we're not seeing any signs of improvement. I don't have any reason to believe he'll get better other than hope. I know that's basically standard operating procedure for the Giants, but in the real world that isn't good enough.
The idea that he's throwing short due to a skillset limitation isn't really valid.
Completing more passes, even short ones, would also boost his Y/A. There's nothing wrong with taking underneath stuff if that's what's there, but you need to complete more than 61% of your passes. If you're 27th in completion percentage and 30th in yards per attempt, you're not going to move the ball.
Russell Wilson was excellent right away. 7.9 YPA, 26/10 as a rookie. 11-5 record.
Does that sound like anything Jones did as a rookie? If Jones had that kind of year would this thread even exist?
Somewhat. Don't downplay that in his rookie year Wilson accumulated 11 wins for a team that only won 7 the year before. He also had 4 game winning drives, 3 fourth qtr comebacks and made the Pro Bowl.
He elevated that team as much as anyone, and still does.
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get the scrutiny on YPA as it pertains to Jones. It is more of a function of the offense and what's available. Unless we are advocating that we should make a number of throws into the teeth of the Cover 2, he's taking the underneath stuff because the deep patterns are covered and his receivers have gotten little separation.
The idea that he's throwing short due to a skillset limitation isn't really valid.
Completing more passes, even short ones, would also boost his Y/A. There's nothing wrong with taking underneath stuff if that's what's there, but you need to complete more than 61% of your passes. If you're 27th in completion percentage and 30th in yards per attempt, you're not going to move the ball.
Understood. But he's taking dumpoffs or getting incompletions on medium routes, not because of his skill, but because of the lack of skill with the receivers and the defensive formation. He's not making terrible throws, he's been under pressure way too often.
Jones was the most pressured QB last season and he's second this season. Couple that with teams taking away the deep routes and the WR's not able to get separation - and you have what you have. Our WR's are last in the NFL in yards of separation.
YPA should not be used as a reflection on his skills.
He took a 4-12 Dallas team and as a rookie went 13-3 the next year.
Understood. But he's taking dumpoffs or getting incompletions on medium routes, not because of his skill, but because of the lack of skill with the receivers and the defensive formation. He's not making terrible throws, he's been under pressure way too often.
Jones was the most pressured QB last season and he's second this season. Couple that with teams taking away the deep routes and the WR's not able to get separation - and you have what you have. Our WR's are last in the NFL in yards of separation.
YPA should not be used as a reflection on his skills.
You're entitled to make whatever argument or excuses you like, but the numbers are what they are. Your objection to YPA is noted, but please don't assume I'm here to satisfy whatever criteria you have for what should and shouldn't be discussed.
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there's no evidence to suggest that Jones can't be better than the 2 of them
This is an aggravating attitude. That evidence is mounting by the week. Where is the evidence that he CAN be better than them?
Look at the numbers above. People are critical of Taylor, Brissett, and Mullens, and that's completely reasonable. Yet the evidence to this point is that they are better players than Jones. And that's without factoring in draft status. They are straight up better players.
Saying Jones will improve isn't founded in anything real. Wishing for things to happen isn't a way to run a team; though it's clearly what the front office did when they didn't bring in competition for Jones after a poor rookie season.
On what planet are those three so unequivocally better than Jones? Statistically, Jones had a much better season in his rookie season, on a terrible team with a horrific OL, than any of those three have ever had in their entire careers. Taylor is about to find his way to the 5th team. Brissett was so incredible last season on a loaded team that the Colts decided to scrap the idea of starting him any longer and went out and signed the corpse of Philip Rivers. Mullens just got demoted to 3rd string behind C.J. Beathard...
It’s ok to say that you don’t believe Jones will ever be a Pro Bowl QB without getting flat out ridiculous.
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there's no evidence to suggest that Jones can't be better than the 2 of them
This is an aggravating attitude. That evidence is mounting by the week. Where is the evidence that he CAN be better than them?
Look at the numbers above. People are critical of Taylor, Brissett, and Mullens, and that's completely reasonable. Yet the evidence to this point is that they are better players than Jones. And that's without factoring in draft status. They are straight up better players.
Saying Jones will improve isn't founded in anything real. Wishing for things to happen isn't a way to run a team; though it's clearly what the front office did when they didn't bring in competition for Jones after a poor rookie season.
On what planet are those three so unequivocally better than Jones? Statistically, Jones had a much better season in his rookie season, on a terrible team with a horrific OL, than any of those three have ever had in their entire careers. Taylor is about to find his way to the 5th team. Brissett was so incredible last season on a loaded team that the Colts decided to scrap the idea of starting him any longer and went out and signed the corpse of Philip Rivers. Mullens just got demoted to 3rd string behind C.J. Beathard...
It’s ok to say that you don’t believe Jones will ever be a Pro Bowl QB without getting flat out ridiculous.
The numbers say otherwise. The only thing Jones has over those three guys is draft status. It's the only reason he's a starter.
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into a player who elevated scrubs. He didn’t have to carry the scrubs right away. He was on team that ran the ball great and played great defense.
Russell Wilson was excellent right away. 7.9 YPA, 26/10 as a rookie. 11-5 record.
Does that sound like anything Jones did as a rookie? If Jones had that kind of year would this thread even exist?
According to footballoutsiders.com, Seattle had the 5th ranked defense and Marshawn Lynch was the 2nd ranked RB Russell’s rookie season. Wilson was 26th in passing attempts his rookie season. He threw the 22nd most passes his second season. BTW, Seattle had the 1st overall defense in Wilson’s second season.
Daniel Jones will never be as good as Russell Wilson. But he doesn’t need to be. Part of becoming a good player is being in a good situation. Eli was. So was Russell Wilson. Josh Allen is in one now. Daniel Jones’ situation is an abomination and I don’t understand how people think that shouldn’t adversely affect him.
is this more of the he "looks good in preseason" BS?
It is obvious yes playing against crappy teams Jones can make some pretty passes.
In garbage time down 2-3 scores -- Jones can make some passes.
It should be obvious that shit is like batting practice but when the bullets start flying or with like a game on the line -- it is not the same thing?
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In comment 15007704 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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into a player who elevated scrubs. He didn’t have to carry the scrubs right away. He was on team that ran the ball great and played great defense.
Russell Wilson was excellent right away. 7.9 YPA, 26/10 as a rookie. 11-5 record.
Does that sound like anything Jones did as a rookie? If Jones had that kind of year would this thread even exist?
According to footballoutsiders.com, Seattle had the 5th ranked defense and Marshawn Lynch was the 2nd ranked RB Russell’s rookie season. Wilson was 26th in passing attempts his rookie season. He threw the 22nd most passes his second season. BTW, Seattle had the 1st overall defense in Wilson’s second season.
Daniel Jones will never be as good as Russell Wilson. But he doesn’t need to be. Part of becoming a good player is being in a good situation. Eli was. So was Russell Wilson. Josh Allen is in one now. Daniel Jones’ situation is an abomination and I don’t understand how people think that shouldn’t adversely affect him.
Eli was in a good situation?
When were the Giants ever favored in any playoff game? Where were the pro bowlers when they won big games after 2006?
Was the Giants roster better ? Yes I will give you that I guess.
The fact is I see nothing in Jones that merits this high a pick in the draft or anyone that can win anything without considerable talent around him. Which you should not expect given that we wasted such a high pick on him
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In comment 15007704 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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into a player who elevated scrubs. He didn’t have to carry the scrubs right away. He was on team that ran the ball great and played great defense.
Russell Wilson was excellent right away. 7.9 YPA, 26/10 as a rookie. 11-5 record.
Does that sound like anything Jones did as a rookie? If Jones had that kind of year would this thread even exist?
According to footballoutsiders.com, Seattle had the 5th ranked defense and Marshawn Lynch was the 2nd ranked RB Russell’s rookie season. Wilson was 26th in passing attempts his rookie season. He threw the 22nd most passes his second season. BTW, Seattle had the 1st overall defense in Wilson’s second season.
Daniel Jones will never be as good as Russell Wilson. But he doesn’t need to be. Part of becoming a good player is being in a good situation. Eli was. So was Russell Wilson. Josh Allen is in one now. Daniel Jones’ situation is an abomination and I don’t understand how people think that shouldn’t adversely affect him.
You are now shifting your argument. Wilson (and now Allen) clearly showed very early on that they lift their respective Offenses up with their play. That is the job assignment for a QB.
We are looking for signs of this from DJ, but really aside from the comeback in his very first game against Tampa, it has not been seen much, if at all.
Yeah... plenty of time for Taylor to establish himself as a game manager that takes care of the ball and doesn't make plays - and yet his YPA is still higher than Jones's.
This is the track Jones is on: career backup.
Amani Toomer
Plaxico
Shaun O’Hara
Diehl
Snee
Kareem McKenzie
All of them started on the Super Bowl team 2 years later. That list doesn’t even include the only guys who were 1st team All-Pros at some point in Tiki and Shockey. And he had a great coach. Nobody is doing it by themselves, especially 16 starts into their careers. It makes a difference.
Jesus.
Jesus.
That, and treating the ball like a loaf of bread in the pocket, yeah.
You are now shifting your argument. Wilson (and now Allen) clearly showed very early on that they lift their respective Offenses up with their play. That is the job assignment for a QB.
We are looking for signs of this from DJ, but really aside from the comeback in his very first game against Tampa, it has not been seen much, if at all.
So give me the example of a player lifting up a roster as barren as the Giants 16 starts into their career? The person is a figment of a lot of people’s imaginations.
Major difference between “too much infrastructure” and the bare minimum for a professional team expecting to compete. The Chargers almost ran for as many yards in the first half as the Giants average per game this season. Would you rather have Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Hunter Henry or whatever the Giants have? Read Sy’s review... both OTs sucked. How about “league average infrastructure”? Aside from Russell Wilson, which QB has elevated scrubs over the past few year? Carson Wentz lifted scrubs for a few weeks last year, keeping in mind they only beat NFC East teams with the scrubs. I don’t understand this thought that there’s this group of QBs elevating bums.
BTW, true busts like Josh Rosen don’t play well against anyone.
Since your brought up the Chargers, their starting C Mike Pouncey has been on IR. Bulaga didn't play last night as he's been battling injury. The starting RG Trai Turner has been hurt. Meanwhile, their starting LT is a 6th round draft choice - Sam Levi. Did you see how many times he got hit last night?
Check out who Aaron Rodgers threw to last week.
Wentz scored 29 points last week in Pittsburgh against one of the best defenses in the league with such luminaries at WR like Greg Ward, Travis Fulgham, and Richard Rodgers.
Look, I agree Gettleman has done a poor job stocking the shelves. But a top flight, franchise QB finds a way to lift his teammates and score points. A lot more more than Jones has accounted for...
Happily.
The mob mentality around this place has gotten worse. This reminds me of the 2018 year and I wasn't even posting. All it took was a few posters with a idea to tear down the team and then it snowballed. Reese had to go. Worse GM in the league.
It got worse when a troll like jtgiants came on here and spread so much BS (and the many people on BBI that co-signed that BS), that was all it took for the mob to demand the tear down. Fuck talent. These guys are malcontents! Let's gets rid of them all..
Now you're stuck with a non-skilled team, worse than the 2018 team and want to bitch and complain about the GM and the roster. What's even funnier, the 2016 team which everyone hates, won 11 games that season. The Giants haven't won more than 9 games in 3 years!!!
You are absolutely 100% correct. Judge said it in the Post Game Presser on Sunday. He was actually upset about the question and said Lets stop this before it starts. DANIEL JONE IS OUR QB, now and in the future sa thats that. Next Question
You are absolutely 100% correct. Judge said it in the Post Game Presser on Sunday. He was actually upset about the question and said Lets stop this before it starts. DANIEL JONE IS OUR QB, now and in the future sa thats that. Next Question
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now constitutes what separates starters and backups??
Jesus.
That, and treating the ball like a loaf of bread in the pocket, yeah.
You’ve always been addicted to it for some reason, but YPA is quite literally the most useless stat in all of sports.
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In comment 15007785 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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now constitutes what separates starters and backups??
Jesus.
That, and treating the ball like a loaf of bread in the pocket, yeah.
You’ve always been addicted to it for some reason, but YPA is quite literally the most useless stat in all of sports.
If you feel that way then you quite literally don't know what you're talking about.
But we already knew that.
Link - ( New Window )
The mob mentality around this place has gotten worse. This reminds me of the 2018 year and I wasn't even posting. All it took was a few posters with a idea to tear down the team and then it snowballed. Reese had to go. Worse GM in the league.
It got worse when a troll like jtgiants came on here and spread so much BS (and the many people on BBI that co-signed that BS), that was all it took for the mob to demand the tear down. Fuck talent. These guys are malcontents! Let's gets rid of them all..
Now you're stuck with a non-skilled team, worse than the 2018 team and want to bitch and complain about the GM and the roster. What's even funnier, the 2016 team which everyone hates, won 11 games that season. The Giants haven't won more than 9 games in 3 years!!!
The great irony here is that prior to the season, people acknowledged:
- That the lack of preseason would hurt the offense early on
- That the OL was a huge question mark
- That the WR's were pedestrian
5 games in, people have conveniently forgot those takes and want to look at Jones in a vacuum. He's been pressured 2nd most in the league. His WR's have the least amount of separation in the league. Teams are sitting back in a 2 Deep zone because the running game has been terrible. What expectations do people have of Jones overcoming that? Would a YPA of 8 make people happy, even if that meant a couple more INT's a game throwing deep for the fuck of it?
It is because it is more of a reflection of the team and offense than the player. Look at the changes in YPA when a QB changes teams.
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Major difference between “too much infrastructure” and the bare minimum for a professional team expecting to compete. The Chargers almost ran for as many yards in the first half as the Giants average per game this season. Would you rather have Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Hunter Henry or whatever the Giants have? Read Sy’s review... both OTs sucked. How about “league average infrastructure”? Aside from Russell Wilson, which QB has elevated scrubs over the past few year? Carson Wentz lifted scrubs for a few weeks last year, keeping in mind they only beat NFC East teams with the scrubs. I don’t understand this thought that there’s this group of QBs elevating bums.
BTW, true busts like Josh Rosen don’t play well against anyone.
Since your brought up the Chargers, their starting C Mike Pouncey has been on IR. Bulaga didn't play last night as he's been battling injury. The starting RG Trai Turner has been hurt. Meanwhile, their starting LT is a 6th round draft choice - Sam Levi. Did you see how many times he got hit last night?
Check out who Aaron Rodgers threw to last week.
Wentz scored 29 points last week in Pittsburgh against one of the best defenses in the league with such luminaries at WR like Greg Ward, Travis Fulgham, and Richard Rodgers.
Look, I agree Gettleman has done a poor job stocking the shelves. But a top flight, franchise QB finds a way to lift his teammates and score points. A lot more more than Jones has accounted for...
Read one of my previous posts. Even with those offensive line injuries, the Chargers almost had as many yards rushing through 2 quarters as the Giants average per game. Is anyone on the Giants making the play Mike Williams made? Wentz has been in the NFL for how many years?
These guys aren’t playing poker with the same hand. Why do people act like they are?
DJ is now on an 11 game tryout for JJ and whoever the new GM is. If he can show improvement and get some good tape in so that he can convince the new GM and coaching staff that he is worth building around - something I don't know how any objective person can be convinced of at this point.
Picking up a guy like Tayler or Mullens or Brissett is just dumb - this what desperate teams that end up in QB hell do.
I think it's more likely that the Giants pick a QB at #1 and DJ gets traded to a team like Indy, Chicago, the 49ers, or NE.
Montana's YPA in SF was 7.6. It was 6.9 in KC
Kurt Warner's YPA was 8.5 in STL, 7.5 in Arizona and 7.4 here
jones wasn't drafted to be cut loose a year later. we take BPA and if a good QB drops we sit him behind Jones until theres a total melt down lol
Even still, feel free to post a study that shows YPA is more an indicator of a team/offense than the QB of that team/offense.
Amani Toomer
Plaxico
Shaun O’Hara
Diehl
Snee
Kareem McKenzie
All of them started on the Super Bowl team 2 years later. That list doesn’t even include the only guys who were 1st team All-Pros at some point in Tiki and Shockey. And he had a great coach. Nobody is doing it by themselves, especially 16 starts into their careers. It makes a difference.
Have you considered the possibility that the man who built Jones's "supporting cast" may also have misjudged and overrated Jones himself? Because it doesn't have to be either/or.
The Giants roster can stink (it does) and Jones may also be just mediocre.
Which brings up some other questions:
-How long are you willing to wait to make the determination on Jones?
-What (specifically) does Jones need to show during that timeframe to demonstrate that he can/should be the long term answer at QB for the Giants?
-How do you mitigate the potential damage done to the franchise if you bet on Jones and he just isn't the guy? Meaning, who's the backup QB in 2021? What do you do if we're sitting here in October 2021 staring down the barrel of another miserable season?
Gettleman also picked Jones. "Full bloom love" was the expression, if I remember correctly. So if we acknowledge that Gettleman's job performance in building the roster around Jones was pathetic, why do we have faith that he made the right pick in Jones? Why does Jones get the benefit of the doubt that the rest of Gettleman's roster does not?
Because fans are wishers. And that's fine. It's just not fine for the front office to be wishers, too.
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You are now shifting your argument. Wilson (and now Allen) clearly showed very early on that they lift their respective Offenses up with their play. That is the job assignment for a QB.
We are looking for signs of this from DJ, but really aside from the comeback in his very first game against Tampa, it has not been seen much, if at all.
So give me the example of a player lifting up a roster as barren as the Giants 16 starts into their career? The person is a figment of a lot of people’s imaginations.
Stop with your extremisms. Nobody is asking for DJ to lift them up to the Super Bowl, but clearly looking for more than this so far. He has 11 more games to show it, so that is what I am looking for.
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5 games and now we are going to be talking about the QB and the draft for the next 11 games.
The mob mentality around this place has gotten worse. This reminds me of the 2018 year and I wasn't even posting. All it took was a few posters with a idea to tear down the team and then it snowballed. Reese had to go. Worse GM in the league.
It got worse when a troll like jtgiants came on here and spread so much BS (and the many people on BBI that co-signed that BS), that was all it took for the mob to demand the tear down. Fuck talent. These guys are malcontents! Let's gets rid of them all..
Now you're stuck with a non-skilled team, worse than the 2018 team and want to bitch and complain about the GM and the roster. What's even funnier, the 2016 team which everyone hates, won 11 games that season. The Giants haven't won more than 9 games in 3 years!!!
The great irony here is that prior to the season, people acknowledged:
- That the lack of preseason would hurt the offense early on
- That the OL was a huge question mark
- That the WR's were pedestrian
5 games in, people have conveniently forgot those takes and want to look at Jones in a vacuum. He's been pressured 2nd most in the league. His WR's have the least amount of separation in the league. Teams are sitting back in a 2 Deep zone because the running game has been terrible. What expectations do people have of Jones overcoming that? Would a YPA of 8 make people happy, even if that meant a couple more INT's a game throwing deep for the fuck of it?
People conveniently forget their positions when it it turns out their position is not going to come true.
IMO, some people understand the dynamics of the season, rebuild, new coach, pandemic, etc and kinda figured this team was going to be at a major disadvantage.
But then you had some who were real bullish and thought that having a good interior line and be good against the run, the D was going to be better. Wrong.
Or those who, and I go back to that 2018 team, who thought when OBJ went out and the Giants scored some points in the those games that OBJ was the problem. Didn't need a #1 WR. Tate has more YAC than OBJ, yada yada, yada..
If the kid has no one to throw the ball to, no one to take the pressure of tim, but that's all just excuses. I recall a guy named Eli having the same problems. The 2016 team barely scored 20 points at anytime during that season. With Eli, OBJ, Shep and Engram. How the hell do people think Jones is gonna do with much less talent??
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at a greater rate than most other quarterback statistics. Link - ( New Window )
It is because it is more of a reflection of the team and offense than the player. Look at the changes in YPA when a QB changes teams.
Exactly. Put Daniel Jones in Andy Reid’s offense, that OL and throwing the ball to Hill, Kelce, Hardman and the rest of that loaded offense. Is there anyone on the planet that thinks his YPA is the same as it is in his current situation?
His YPA sucks so he sucks!!! Try to use some damn context here people.
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In comment 15007693 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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get the scrutiny on YPA as it pertains to Jones. It is more of a function of the offense and what's available. Unless we are advocating that we should make a number of throws into the teeth of the Cover 2, he's taking the underneath stuff because the deep patterns are covered and his receivers have gotten little separation.
The idea that he's throwing short due to a skillset limitation isn't really valid.
Completing more passes, even short ones, would also boost his Y/A. There's nothing wrong with taking underneath stuff if that's what's there, but you need to complete more than 61% of your passes. If you're 27th in completion percentage and 30th in yards per attempt, you're not going to move the ball.
Understood. But he's taking dumpoffs or getting incompletions on medium routes, not because of his skill, but because of the lack of skill with the receivers and the defensive formation. He's not making terrible throws, he's been under pressure way too often.
Jones was the most pressured QB last season and he's second this season. Couple that with teams taking away the deep routes and the WR's not able to get separation - and you have what you have. Our WR's are last in the NFL in yards of separation.
YPA should not be used as a reflection on his skills.
If he cannot hold on to the ball he is useless to the Giants. Even though he got whacked hard on Sunday by D Lawrence, he should not have fumbled. His arms weren't even hit.
I had mentioned on another thread that JJ needs to be in his face on this. Make him carry a ball at the facility at all times and make him open to "assault" on the ball from anyone at anytime. Not sure how TC did it with Tiki Barber, but whatever he did it worked.
YPA is important...but his turnover rate is incredibly alarming - it's been exposed - and it's not getting better.
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here are some of his fellow starters...
Amani Toomer
Plaxico
Shaun O’Hara
Diehl
Snee
Kareem McKenzie
All of them started on the Super Bowl team 2 years later. That list doesn’t even include the only guys who were 1st team All-Pros at some point in Tiki and Shockey. And he had a great coach. Nobody is doing it by themselves, especially 16 starts into their careers. It makes a difference.
Have you considered the possibility that the man who built Jones's "supporting cast" may also have misjudged and overrated Jones himself? Because it doesn't have to be either/or.
The Giants roster can stink (it does) and Jones may also be just mediocre.
If the Giants could run the football worth a damn, I would. If Jones never had those good games (regardless of the level of competition) I would. Josh Allen won 3 games his first two seasons in which the Bills scored 14 points or less. Russell Wilson won four games in which his team scored 16 points or less his first two seasons in the league. I’m not a Jones fanboy saying he’s going to be Montana if we give him more time. I just think there’s almost no one who would be successful with the present circumstances. I HATED the pick, but the little bit Jones showed last year impressed me because the surrounding cast was also dogshit. I would draft Trevor Lawrence, but there better be a new GM and significant improvements to the offensive line immediately. Or else we’ll be saying Lawrence is no Andrew Luck.
.
Perhaps those guys are free agents in 2021, and Mariota isn't.
Gettleman also picked Jones. "Full bloom love" was the expression, if I remember correctly. So if we acknowledge that Gettleman's job performance in building the roster around Jones was pathetic, why do we have faith that he made the right pick in Jones? Why does Jones get the benefit of the doubt that the rest of Gettleman's roster does not?
Because fans are wishers. And that's fine. It's just not fine for the front office to be wishers, too.
Who is excusing Gettleman??. The approach you want to make ois what people are objecting to. It ain't the QB. or maybe it is. I don't watch college ball so I don't know who he is comped to or what DJ was "supposed" to be.
The roster is terrible. But you know what, when you ask for a tear down, this is what you get. Or let me re-phrase your question back to you..
When you ask if people have faith that Gettleman made the right pick in Jones. Did you have faith the Gettleman was going to build the roster correctly since you were advocating for it to be torn down?
It comes down to where we finish. If its a top 2/3 pick then we should draft QB. If we win some games and are picking 6-10 then it gets interesting. Really depends on how Jones finishes, and what pick we have as a result.
Do you think he can be fairly evaluated this early in season considering the circumstances. If we saw the limitations, and I absolutely did, once you lost Barkley, the limitations became a disability..
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I think many of us saw the limitations of the offense going in, thought we'd suck, and are still disappointed in Jones' performance.
Do you think he can be fairly evaluated this early in season considering the circumstances. If we saw the limitations, and I absolutely did, once you lost Barkley, the limitations became a disability..
Yes, I do, because many of those limitations were there last season and Jones was much better. Additionally, other QBs have dealt with comparable issues and look better (Burrow, Herbert).
Some of the habits he needed to grow out of have worsened. Staring down receivers, for example, and his turnovers haven't improved. Given the conservative play calling (in my view), his inability to maintain control the ball is concerning. This isn't Eli in Gilbride's offense.
I'm not writing Jones off (or saying Burrow/Herbert are the next greatest QBs). But I think Jones himself has been worse than expected. He missed a handful of plays because he was staring his guy down this past Sunday.
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In comment 15007897 BrettNYG10 said:
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I think many of us saw the limitations of the offense going in, thought we'd suck, and are still disappointed in Jones' performance.
Do you think he can be fairly evaluated this early in season considering the circumstances. If we saw the limitations, and I absolutely did, once you lost Barkley, the limitations became a disability..
Yes, I do, because many of those limitations were there last season and Jones was much better. Additionally, other QBs have dealt with comparable issues and look better (Burrow, Herbert).
Some of the habits he needed to grow out of have worsened. Staring down receivers, for example, and his turnovers haven't improved. Given the conservative play calling (in my view), his inability to maintain control the ball is concerning. This isn't Eli in Gilbride's offense.
I'm not writing Jones off (or saying Burrow/Herbert are the next greatest QBs). But I think Jones himself has been worse than expected. He missed a handful of plays because he was staring his guy down this past Sunday.
Fair enough. I admit I only watched one complete game all season. And very little of the others. But what I have seen is a mix bag. I did traits of good games last year. But I see the stare down. And someone posted about the same issues he had in College and that Cutliffe couldn't even fix them. It is concerning. But brining in competition is not a smart move at this point.
Compare Jones to his contemporaries:
Mahomes
Watson
Trubisky
Jackson
Allen
Darnold
Rosen
Haskins
Herbert
Burrow
I'm probably missing someone in there. But those are the first rounders the last three years. How is Jones looking compared to them?
They're not similar in strengths, weaknesses, playstyle, experience at this stage, pedigree as a prospect (not talking about lineage), etc.
It's as lazy a comparison as invoking Dave Brown.
Compare Jones to his contemporaries:
Mahomes
Watson
Trubisky
Jackson
Allen
Darnold
Rosen
Haskins
Herbert
Burrow
I'm probably missing someone in there. But those are the first rounders the last three years. How is Jones looking compared to them?
And teams have already moved on from 1 (Rosen) of them and I see a possibility of 3 (Haskins/Trubinsky/Darnold) teams re-drafting another QB already as early as next year.
The reality of the new NFL is that you just don't get three years to develop a QB anymore.
Those days are gone.
Compare Jones to his contemporaries:
Mahomes
Watson
Trubisky
Jackson
Allen
Darnold
Rosen
Haskins
Herbert
Burrow
I'm probably missing someone in there. But those are the first rounders the last three years. How is Jones looking compared to them?
From that list, he's likely middle of the pack. Surely more than the hot garbage he's being portrayed as.
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The NFL in 2005 was a completely different world.
Compare Jones to his contemporaries:
Mahomes
Watson
Trubisky
Jackson
Allen
Darnold
Rosen
Haskins
Herbert
Burrow
I'm probably missing someone in there. But those are the first rounders the last three years. How is Jones looking compared to them?
And teams have already moved on from 1 (Rosen) of them and I see a possibility of 3 (Haskins/Trubinsky/Darnold) teams re-drafting another QB already as early as next year.
The reality of the new NFL is that you just don't get three years to develop a QB anymore.
Those days are gone.
Kyler Murray
Drew Lock
Watson - great player, has had ups and downs but mainly a top 10 QB in the league
Trubisky - benched multiple times, has shown to generally not be the answer and he's in his 4th year, it's probably times up for him
Jackson - MVP, immense talent, 0-2 in playoffs and couldn't make a throw in either of those games. But, great player yes
Allen - excelling in 3rd season, looked borderline awful as a rookie and average in his 2nd season
Darnold - up and down, injury plagued, has shown at times he has the ability to be great but way too inconsistent, plus the Jets are absolutely pathetic
Rosen - probably will never be a NFL starter again
Haskins - already benched, hasn't shown anything
Herbert - good stats so far, looks good, hasn't won a game
Burrow - looks like he has it, but hasn't won a game, and hasn't really lit it up on the stat sheet either. He's a rookie taking his bumps
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Lawrence on a daily basis are going to be very disappointed when we don't a) draft him and b) have a chance to draft him. It's getting sad at this point. Get it out of your head.
I think it's out of the question we draft Lawrence because we'll never be in a position to whether they'd want to or not. Think even Fields will be out of the question. I believe right now it's still Jones or bust. Hopefully this team can turn this thing around. Not just Jones but the whole team. Show some improvement and hopefully Jones can look more like last year's Jones.
I don't understand why anyone would dismiss the possibility that the Giants finish with the worst record, or tied for the worst record. They really are that bad.
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In comment 15007905 GManinDC said:
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In comment 15007897 BrettNYG10 said:
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I think many of us saw the limitations of the offense going in, thought we'd suck, and are still disappointed in Jones' performance.
Do you think he can be fairly evaluated this early in season considering the circumstances. If we saw the limitations, and I absolutely did, once you lost Barkley, the limitations became a disability..
Yes, I do, because many of those limitations were there last season and Jones was much better. Additionally, other QBs have dealt with comparable issues and look better (Burrow, Herbert).
Some of the habits he needed to grow out of have worsened. Staring down receivers, for example, and his turnovers haven't improved. Given the conservative play calling (in my view), his inability to maintain control the ball is concerning. This isn't Eli in Gilbride's offense.
I'm not writing Jones off (or saying Burrow/Herbert are the next greatest QBs). But I think Jones himself has been worse than expected. He missed a handful of plays because he was staring his guy down this past Sunday.
Fair enough. I admit I only watched one complete game all season. And very little of the others. But what I have seen is a mix bag. I did traits of good games last year. But I see the stare down. And someone posted about the same issues he had in College and that Cutliffe couldn't even fix them. It is concerning. But brining in competition is not a smart move at this point.
Yeah, I'm not writing Jones off, there's still eleven games left. We should have a better idea at the end of the year, but I'm definitely concerned.
5 games in, now he need to be replaced by career backups and journeyman..
5 games in, now he need to be replaced by career backups and journeyman..
That talk didn't come from me. I thought he looked the best out of his QB class, and as the season progressed I grew more and more concerned. By December I was openly rooting for losses in the hopes of at least making Gettleman have to pass on Burrow.
And to your question before, taking the roster apart after 2017 was the right move. Gettleman didn't go far enough (should have cut Eli then), and he did a pathetic job putting a new roster together.
Had we hired a competent GM, we'd have been better off. But we kept it in the family...
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There was talk around here that he was the best QB in the division. I remember reading threads last year about if they had the choice, they would start with DJ over any QB in NFC East. My have attitudes changed.
5 games in, now he need to be replaced by career backups and journeyman..
That talk didn't come from me. I thought he looked the best out of his QB class, and as the season progressed I grew more and more concerned. By December I was openly rooting for losses in the hopes of at least making Gettleman have to pass on Burrow.
And to your question before, taking the roster apart after 2017 was the right move. Gettleman didn't go far enough (should have cut Eli then), and he did a pathetic job putting a new roster together.
Had we hired a competent GM, we'd have been better off. But we kept it in the family...
This is where we disagree. That roster did not need a tear down. It needed to be pared of a few players. The tear down is what got this team to his point now. And yes he did a horrible job putting it back together, but the blame is shared with our committee of voters.
And until that committee is abolished, and we all know that ain't happening, it's going to be the same.
People keep talking about Abrams being the GM. I would not be surprised if Chris Mara is the next GM. He's followed the same foot steps Reese did in getting promoted..
If he cannot hold on to the ball he is useless to the Giants. Even though he got whacked hard on Sunday by D Lawrence, he should not have fumbled. His arms weren't even hit.
I had mentioned on another thread that JJ needs to be in his face on this. Make him carry a ball at the facility at all times and make him open to "assault" on the ball from anyone at anytime. Not sure how TC did it with Tiki Barber, but whatever he did it worked.
Its awareness ... lack thereof ... he is not ready for the impact
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In comment 15007937 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The NFL in 2005 was a completely different world.
Compare Jones to his contemporaries:
Mahomes
Watson
Trubisky
Jackson
Allen
Darnold
Rosen
Haskins
Herbert
Burrow
I'm probably missing someone in there. But those are the first rounders the last three years. How is Jones looking compared to them?
And teams have already moved on from 1 (Rosen) of them and I see a possibility of 3 (Haskins/Trubinsky/Darnold) teams re-drafting another QB already as early as next year.
The reality of the new NFL is that you just don't get three years to develop a QB anymore.
Those days are gone.
Kyler Murray
Drew Lock
Baker Mayfield
Would rather use those dollars to shore up the OL, WR etc. to see what any QB can have in this offense instead of throwing them out into a crappy situation.
The Giants operated in fear of their backup QBs being on par with their starter for too long with older Manning.
The worst mistake the Giants made in this era was catering to Manning’s feelings when he was benched, and not recognizing there was no functional difference between Manning and Geno Smith.
Many of his decision making issues from college seemed to have been coached out of him. But, year 2, he is regressing and we are seeing many of the college issues come back.
We are seeing him stare down receivers, take extra hops and/or patting the ball (telegraphing the throw), and having major troubles with zone and bracket coverages.
He still has 11 games to turn it around, but as of now, his efforts shouldn't prevent a competent FO from picking Lawrence or possibly Fields.
Here is what I said of him in college after the draft:
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=583148&show_all=1#14433532
When I evaluatd Jones, I saw two weaknesses not mentioned by the OP. But the weaknesses are somewhat related.
1. Seeing the field, maybe call this spacial judgement. He has difficulty judging when a defender has angle on his throw. He doesn't seem to be able to figure out where a defender will be by the time his throw arrives. He fails to realize that a defender in position to drive on a ball can accelerate wuickly and be there to break it up or intercept it. He has a lot of bad throws like this. Sometimes this leads to poor ball placement. I remember a short throw to his TE being covered by a LB in a zone coverage. The corner saw the throw and started driving on the ball from the outside. If Jones had judged it correctly he would have thrown away from the corner who would arrive first since the LB had to change direction. The ball should have been shaded inside instead of outside. The TE dropped it because he heard the footsteps, and he did get clobbered.
2. Decision making, I say this is somewhat related to the first, because I think his bad decisions come from not seeing the field well. But he has a tendency to only view the coverage in terms of the primary defender. He fails to take into account a 2nd defender who might be providing help. Espcially in bracketed coverage, over under, or right left brackets. He will still throw into the double coverage.
Your examples:
1. He hesitates on the throw, he stutter hops 4 times before releasing, and he doesn't calculate that during his hesitation the CB is now driving on the ball and he is lucky it wasn't a pick 6. He didn't realize the CB would get there in time. 1 stutter hop to reset his fett would have been ok and probably meant a completion. I have no idea why he hesitated. A bad mental process all around.
2. Again, totally miscalculates that the safety is already driving on that ball before he even winds up. A better throw would have been to go over the top leading downfield and to the outside. Bad decision on the type and placement of the throw.
3. This is the 2nd weakness, misreading the zone and not taking into consideration the bracketing (over under in this case). He also hesitates and stutter hops a few times. Just abysmal decision making the throw to that guy. He needs to go to the next guy in his progression.
I see his issues being more mental than physical.
I am not concerned with his arm strength, or arm talent.
Its his mental processes and decisions that concern me.
I think that evaluation is pretty consistent with DJ we are seeing in 2020, with the added problem of ball security compounding things.
It would be good if he can turn it around and show he is a franchise guy by the end of the year. If not, normally I would still be in favor of trading down and building the roster, just not with prospects the likes of these guys.
However, if you want competition, lets bring in a stronger candidate than those 3...
Many of his decision making issues from college seemed to have been coached out of him. But, year 2, he is regressing and we are seeing many of the college issues come back.
We are seeing him stare down receivers, take extra hops and/or patting the ball (telegraphing the throw), and having major troubles with zone and bracket coverages.
He still has 11 games to turn it around, but as of now, his efforts shouldn't prevent a competent FO from picking Lawrence or possibly Fields.
Here is what I said of him in college after the draft:
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=583148&show_all=1#14433532
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Strahan, I have a different opionion on all 3 of those plays.
When I evaluatd Jones, I saw two weaknesses not mentioned by the OP. But the weaknesses are somewhat related.
1. Seeing the field, maybe call this spacial judgement. He has difficulty judging when a defender has angle on his throw. He doesn't seem to be able to figure out where a defender will be by the time his throw arrives. He fails to realize that a defender in position to drive on a ball can accelerate wuickly and be there to break it up or intercept it. He has a lot of bad throws like this. Sometimes this leads to poor ball placement. I remember a short throw to his TE being covered by a LB in a zone coverage. The corner saw the throw and started driving on the ball from the outside. If Jones had judged it correctly he would have thrown away from the corner who would arrive first since the LB had to change direction. The ball should have been shaded inside instead of outside. The TE dropped it because he heard the footsteps, and he did get clobbered.
2. Decision making, I say this is somewhat related to the first, because I think his bad decisions come from not seeing the field well. But he has a tendency to only view the coverage in terms of the primary defender. He fails to take into account a 2nd defender who might be providing help. Espcially in bracketed coverage, over under, or right left brackets. He will still throw into the double coverage.
Your examples:
1. He hesitates on the throw, he stutter hops 4 times before releasing, and he doesn't calculate that during his hesitation the CB is now driving on the ball and he is lucky it wasn't a pick 6. He didn't realize the CB would get there in time. 1 stutter hop to reset his fett would have been ok and probably meant a completion. I have no idea why he hesitated. A bad mental process all around.
2. Again, totally miscalculates that the safety is already driving on that ball before he even winds up. A better throw would have been to go over the top leading downfield and to the outside. Bad decision on the type and placement of the throw.
3. This is the 2nd weakness, misreading the zone and not taking into consideration the bracketing (over under in this case). He also hesitates and stutter hops a few times. Just abysmal decision making the throw to that guy. He needs to go to the next guy in his progression.
I see his issues being more mental than physical.
I am not concerned with his arm strength, or arm talent.
Its his mental processes and decisions that concern me.
I think that evaluation is pretty consistent with DJ we are seeing in 2020, with the added problem of ball security compounding things.
It would be good if he can turn it around and show he is a franchise guy by the end of the year. If not, normally I would still be in favor of trading down and building the roster, just not with prospects the likes of these guys.
agree completely.. you can add to that inaccuracy and poor decision making.
Coaching/Scheme
Pass Protection
Quarterback
Wide Receivers
Injuries
Those are just some simple affects of ypa that I could think of quickly without going into detail how they affect ypa, but I'm sure if we're honest we can understand how they affect ypa.
Also, a serious question. Has YPA jumped that much of significance as an average per season since, say 1994?
5 games in, people have conveniently forgot those takes and want to look at Jones in a vacuum. He's been pressured 2nd most in the league. His WR's have the least amount of separation in the league. Teams are sitting back in a 2 Deep zone because the running game has been terrible. What expectations do people have of Jones overcoming that? Would a YPA of 8 make people happy, even if that meant a couple more INT's a game throwing deep for the fuck of it?
Jones should be looked at in a vacuum. Why wouldn't he be? He's the QB with the responsibility to be a difference maker and lift the play of others.
I expect the #6 pick in the draft to be more great than ordinary/bad. At this point, I'd settle for the #6 pick to be more good than ordinary/bad.
It seems you side of the aisle continues to treat any QB as just 1/11th of any offense. And that they shouldn't be held more accountable for the offense's productivity any more or less than the other ten players on offense.
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5 games in, people have conveniently forgot those takes and want to look at Jones in a vacuum. He's been pressured 2nd most in the league. His WR's have the least amount of separation in the league. Teams are sitting back in a 2 Deep zone because the running game has been terrible. What expectations do people have of Jones overcoming that? Would a YPA of 8 make people happy, even if that meant a couple more INT's a game throwing deep for the fuck of it?
Jones should be looked at in a vacuum. Why wouldn't he be? He's the QB with the responsibility to be a difference maker and lift the play of others.
I expect the #6 pick in the draft to be more great than ordinary/bad. At this point, I'd settle for the #6 pick to be more good than ordinary/bad.
It seems you side of the aisle continues to treat any QB as just 1/11th of any offense. And that they shouldn't be held more accountable for the offense's productivity any more or less than the other ten players on offense.
The quarterback should count for more than 1\11th of the offense, but how much isn't necessarily clear and ranges from team to team, qb to qb.
Simply, they should count for more than 1\11th, but perhaps not as much as you think.
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5 games in, people have conveniently forgot those takes and want to look at Jones in a vacuum. He's been pressured 2nd most in the league. His WR's have the least amount of separation in the league. Teams are sitting back in a 2 Deep zone because the running game has been terrible. What expectations do people have of Jones overcoming that? Would a YPA of 8 make people happy, even if that meant a couple more INT's a game throwing deep for the fuck of it?
Jones should be looked at in a vacuum. Why wouldn't he be? He's the QB with the responsibility to be a difference maker and lift the play of others.
I expect the #6 pick in the draft to be more great than ordinary/bad. At this point, I'd settle for the #6 pick to be more good than ordinary/bad.
It seems you side of the aisle continues to treat any QB as just 1/11th of any offense. And that they shouldn't be held more accountable for the offense's productivity any more or less than the other ten players on offense.
So, yore saying that if they sent him (or any qb)out to play, completely alone, then he should still be able to move the ball downfield on both air and ground?
You’re more the expert than I but just feel that is asking a lot.
It’s seemingly kryptonite to the NY Giants.
Can Mara petition the Competition Committee to abolish it?
Just making it sound like we can beat the Cover 2 through sheer will is folly, Throwing deep against a Cover 2 is the worst strategy against it.
Just making it sound like we can beat the Cover 2 through sheer will is folly, Throwing deep against a Cover 2 is the worst strategy against it.
Yep. It's also why we never see people running wide open like other teams. Just sit in zone all day, maybe send an extra guy in the zone on the blitz and make sure you don't lose sight of Slayton or Engram. I'm honestly pretty confident I could call a game defensively against the Giants right now and it stems from what's going on upfront combined with a skill bench that is neither deep or super talented.
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5 games in, people have conveniently forgot those takes and want to look at Jones in a vacuum. He's been pressured 2nd most in the league. His WR's have the least amount of separation in the league. Teams are sitting back in a 2 Deep zone because the running game has been terrible. What expectations do people have of Jones overcoming that? Would a YPA of 8 make people happy, even if that meant a couple more INT's a game throwing deep for the fuck of it?
Jones should be looked at in a vacuum. Why wouldn't he be? He's the QB with the responsibility to be a difference maker and lift the play of others.
I expect the #6 pick in the draft to be more great than ordinary/bad. At this point, I'd settle for the #6 pick to be more good than ordinary/bad.
It seems you side of the aisle continues to treat any QB as just 1/11th of any offense. And that they shouldn't be held more accountable for the offense's productivity any more or less than the other ten players on offense.
1/11th of the offense?? It isn't a very nuanced point here - it is pretty simple. Not many QB's, Jones being one of them, are going to thrive with a poor running game, a receiving corps that doesn't get separation, and being pressured one of the most in the league. Jones was pressured more than half of his dropbacks against the woeful Cowboys.
It isn't about being 1/1th of the offense, it is lacking the wherewithall to see that there are a lot of contributing factors. Why do most QB's with terrible OL's look bad?
It’s seemingly kryptonite to the NY Giants.
Can Mara petition the Competition Committee to abolish it?
i disagree with the running game being stalled. 2018 Barkley ran crazy. OBJ had a good year before getting heart. Engram and Shep had decent years..
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Giants couldn’t crack it with OBJ and he would get shut down. Then they added speedy Engram to help attack it but that didn’t help. Eli couldn’t handle it and would just check down. Then they added Saquon to take advantage of running against it but the running game was still stalled. They put in a mobile athletic QB in Daniel Jones to pressure the defenses, but he has had trouble reading and throwing accurately against zone coverages.
It’s seemingly kryptonite to the NY Giants.
Can Mara petition the Competition Committee to abolish it?
i disagree with the running game being stalled. 2018 Barkley ran crazy. OBJ had a good year before getting heart. Engram and Shep had decent years..
Yep
Too many excuses of what the team can’t achieve.
Just making it sound like we can beat the Cover 2 through sheer will is folly, Throwing deep against a Cover 2 is the worst strategy against it.
see 2018..
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Giants couldn’t crack it with OBJ and he would get shut down. Then they added speedy Engram to help attack it but that didn’t help. Eli couldn’t handle it and would just check down. Then they added Saquon to take advantage of running against it but the running game was still stalled. They put in a mobile athletic QB in Daniel Jones to pressure the defenses, but he has had trouble reading and throwing accurately against zone coverages.
It’s seemingly kryptonite to the NY Giants.
Can Mara petition the Competition Committee to abolish it?
i disagree with the running game being stalled. 2018 Barkley ran crazy. OBJ had a good year before getting heart. Engram and Shep had decent years..
Actually nope. Giants rushing yards per game in 2018 was in bottom third of the league. Crazy huh?
And not sure what decent years they had when the team was a train wreck.
No, I am saying the Giants had a less than average running game. And it’s ineffectiveness was very apparent for a good part of the year despite SB.
No sense prolonging the agony - ( New Window )
You guys don't see how the contributing factors hamstring the offense?
You guys don't see how the contributing factors hamstring the offense?
I’m tired of the excuses. I get it that the roster is crap, but Jones still had opportunities to elevate the offense and win any of the Chicago, LA or Dallas games. He didn’t do it. He turns the ball over a ton.
FMiC - if I recall, you didn’t even want Jones at #6. Listen, I hope he plays well the rest of the way. Nothing would make me happier than beating Wsh & Philly in the next ten days. But, Jones has been poor.
Let’s not make the mistake of waiting too long on Jones. He’s gonna have this season, but I expect the #6 pick to carry the depleted offense to some wins. Isn’t that why he was drafted #6?
That damn Reese really left us with a crappy set of offensive players.
1/11th of the offense?? It isn't a very nuanced point here - it is pretty simple. Not many QB's, Jones being one of them, are going to thrive with a poor running game, a receiving corps that doesn't get separation, and being pressured one of the most in the league. Jones was pressured more than half of his dropbacks against the woeful Cowboys.
It isn't about being 1/1th of the offense, it is lacking the wherewithall to see that there are a lot of contributing factors. Why do most QB's with terrible OL's look bad?
For crissakes, it's always something. Do you put any of the offense's doldrums on Jones? You don't think he has a responsibility to elevate others? Do you recall he was the 6th pick in the draft?
This is the same mantra echoed during Eli's final years. But at least Eli had the excuses that he was immobile and old.
But Jones is younger, more mobile and more athletic. So by those virtues alone shouldn't we be seeing more high level plays? Even despite the inefficiencies? Do you ever consider that?
I didn't like the Barkley pick. And I'm an avid PSU fan for 30+ years. But I can certainly see the abilities he has to make a difference. QB is a much more important position. Yet, after 17-18 games I haven't seen much at all to give convince me that Jones is really a 3rd/4th pick disguising as a #6 pick.
Miami has a pretty poor running game too so surely the Niners implemented a similar defense against them that they did against the Giants. Did they play Cover 2 against us because I didn’t see much of the game that day?
Anybody?
Miami has a pretty poor running game too so surely the Niners implemented a similar defense against them that they did against the Giants. Did they play Cover 2 against us because I didn’t see much of the game that day?
Anybody?
Football is unpredictable to an extent. There are many factors or reasons that go into why a team plays one way one week and different the next.
I get it. It isn't unreasonable.
I just apply a different amount of weight than you and others on Jones, especially since he's such a high investment. You and others seem to spread the weight of responsibility more evenly across the offense. I put significantly more on Jones.
And I can only say, in my defense, that my view is upheld by market value of the position since the QB position is highest compensated position in the sport.
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The point being made is that some of us feel circumstances are playing a role in a part of Jones' struggles. The key is, it can be difficult to know just how much it is related to the struggles. I don't think that is an unreasonable stance.
I get it. It isn't unreasonable.
I just apply a different amount of weight than you and others on Jones, especially since he's such a high investment. You and others seem to spread the weight of responsibility more evenly across the offense. I put significantly more on Jones.
And I can only say, in my defense, that my view is upheld by market value of the position since the QB position is highest compensated position in the sport.
👍
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The point being made is that some of us feel circumstances are playing a role in a part of Jones' struggles. The key is, it can be difficult to know just how much it is related to the struggles. I don't think that is an unreasonable stance.
I get it. It isn't unreasonable.
I just apply a different amount of weight than you and others on Jones, especially since he's such a high investment. You and others seem to spread the weight of responsibility more evenly across the offense. I put significantly more on Jones.
And I can only say, in my defense, that my view is upheld by market value of the position since the QB position is highest compensated position in the sport.
The problem is, people are putting a lot of weight on Jones because of his predecessor and how much the QB position been a mess Eli's last 2 years. I understand the sentiment but IMO, it's a little too much to ask a young QB to elevate a team devoid of talent.
I think too many people are placing more of the position of the pick and not the actual pick itself. I expected this regression. Most QB's have that 2nd year hitch. Why are we so surprised that this QB is having one?. And with mitigating circumstances.