What would you do to fix it? You often come parachuting in and talking about how awful this franchise is (which is correct), but I never see you post any potential solutions or ideas to fix it?
Any potential GM’s you like? Move off Jones? Judge?
First idea would be to get rid of Gettleman, who never should have been hired.
Judge I actually like, but I fear he will get fired because of the shit hand he was dealt after next season. It's going to be a long road back, and fans are not going to be patient. This team has been a total train wreck since hurricane sandy.
I would bring in a a player personnel guy as GM. Zero interest in a cap guy being GM like Abrams. Cap guy's are valuable, but can't be picking players too. I don't think Judge has earned the right to pick his GM, and I still dont buy into that being the way to go in the NFL these days despite the 49ers doing it. I actually think Shannahan and Lynch will be fired in a couple years and could easily see them on the path of the Atlanta Falcons. Teams do not recover from losses like they had in the Super Bowl.
I don't dislike Daniel Jones, but it's clear that he's not going to work out in New York. In todays NFL a huge asset to a team is having a good franchise QB on a rookie deal, his rookie deal is going to be pissed away on a terrible football team and then what do you do, pay him big money? No thanks. He doesn't have franchise QB talent. He's on the level of a slightly better Kirk Cousins, Tannehill level. Those guys are solid, but will never elevate their team in the big spot to get them over the hump. Daniel Jones is not going to go steal you games on a regular basis. He needs to be surrounded with the right group to be successful and he's clearly not here and doesn't have the ability to put the team on his back, in my opinion. And I do like him, had no issue with Gettleman taking him and still dont, if you believe in the player which I think they genuinely did then you draft him at 6 as a QB.
The mess started when they made one of the all time blunders by thinking the 2018 team was a playoff contender and Eli had something left in the tank. Anyone who believed Eli had something left in the tank should have been fired a long time ago. Mara hired a guy who believed that because thats what Mara wanted to believe. Mara botched the benching and threw McAdoo under the bus. McAdoo gets a ton of shit around here, but he was a lot better coach than most on here give him credit for. He runs circles around Shurmur, who was the worst Giants coach without even a close second since i started watching around 1995 consistently.
Saquon was just a remarkably poor pick at #2. It just made no sense on any level. If you don't like the QB's enough (I did like Darnold) then you take Chubb or Nelson. Taking a running back in that spot was just absurd, and outside of his rookie year, Saquon Barkley has not even come remotely close to justifying that pick. Barkley is a great kid and incredibly talented, but if you simply stuck by the never draft a running back top 5 overall no matter who it is in todays NFL you would be much better off. The team does not play that much worse offensively when he isn't on the field. Everyone wants to make him out to be the next coming of God but even when he's been on the field he has warts particularly in pass protection. It will never make sense to me taking a running back there.
The offensive line is still a train wreck. Zetiler who people on BBI somehow thought was a pro bowl caliber player has been a big dud. Hernandez has regressed. Thomas I think will be a good player but it hasn't been pretty so far this year. Center and RT who the hell knows what is going on there.
3 years into Gettlemans rebuild and I could easily argue this team is in worse shape now than they were 3 years ago at this time. He's bar none the worst GM the Giants have ever had and Gettleman should be fired like yesterday, Giants wont do that and they'll let him retire but they better muzzle him and take away any ability to make any kinds of trades or extensions of players contracts the rest of his tenure. Everything he has touched has turned into dogshit.
I would be looking to move on from players like Jabrill Peppers. I don't care if he's a good special teams player, he sucks as a safety and should not have had his 5th year option picked up, instead we'll be paying a guy 6 million next year to return punts. He's a worthless defensive player.
Linebacker Martinez is solid. Rest of the group doesn't inspire me. The defensive line is just thoroughly average. I like Lawrence but the rest of them I would move on from the first chance I had.
I have high hopes for McKinney, Bradberry is solid. There's 4 players on defense I would try to build the defense around going forward. Lawrence, Martinez, McKinney, Bradberry. The rest of the defense I wouldn't even consider giving an extension to any of them. Hopefully some of the young guys develop but I see a stunning lack of talent on that side of the ball each week.
Offensive skill positions are in desperate need of a talent influx. Slayton will never be a #1, but he can wind up being a solid complimentary player. But this team desperately needs a #1 receiver. And a reliable TE.
If QB is a need for the Giants, and it very well may be, then this roster going forward is the worst in the sport. A lot can change quickly though if they get the right QB and hire a decent GM. It's not something that needs to take 5 years, but when you hire clowns like Gettleman the only thing you're doing is doubling the amount of time it takes to rebuild the team.
This Giants team, in my opinion, is the worst of the last 3. They are incredibly boring, lack any type of playmakers on defense and very few on offense.
The Giants need to stop acting like they are such a classy organization and worrying about finding good people. They need to find better football players first and foremost. The talent on this team makes their ceiling 3-4 wins. And that will take a miracle at this point.
I would go into the GM search trying to find a pro personnel guy to run the team. I would absolutely positively not let Joe Judge pick the GM. I would give the new GM the ability to fire or retain Judge. If the new GM wants a different coach, then adios Joe Judge.
I have never agreed with every single word of a singular post before, but you nailed it. 100%, like every sentence.
Bell doesn't seem to be the player he once was with Pittsburgh but he is still better than what we have?? I mean, I think we have the first pick in the draft if the season were to end today. We lack top end talent.
Perhaps Bell can rebound as he isn't that old?
Bell doesn't seem to be the player he once was with Pittsburgh but he is still better than what we have?? I mean, I think we have the first pick in the draft if the season were to end today. We lack top end talent.
Perhaps Bell can rebound as he isn't that old?
I agree. If we can sign him, he can replace Lewis. Bell and Freeman would make a good running back pair.
I think Judge gets 3 years after this one. This year is a wash due to COVID, all new staff and the roster he inherited.
His approach to putting in young guys for development appears new to the Giants, from what I recall
What would you do to fix it? You often come parachuting in and talking about how awful this franchise is (which is correct), but I never see you post any potential solutions or ideas to fix it?
Any potential GM’s you like? Move off Jones? Judge?
First idea would be to get rid of Gettleman, who never should have been hired.
Judge I actually like, but I fear he will get fired because of the shit hand he was dealt after next season. It's going to be a long road back, and fans are not going to be patient. This team has been a total train wreck since hurricane sandy.
I would bring in a a player personnel guy as GM. Zero interest in a cap guy being GM like Abrams. Cap guy's are valuable, but can't be picking players too. I don't think Judge has earned the right to pick his GM, and I still dont buy into that being the way to go in the NFL these days despite the 49ers doing it. I actually think Shannahan and Lynch will be fired in a couple years and could easily see them on the path of the Atlanta Falcons. Teams do not recover from losses like they had in the Super Bowl.
I don't dislike Daniel Jones, but it's clear that he's not going to work out in New York. In todays NFL a huge asset to a team is having a good franchise QB on a rookie deal, his rookie deal is going to be pissed away on a terrible football team and then what do you do, pay him big money? No thanks. He doesn't have franchise QB talent. He's on the level of a slightly better Kirk Cousins, Tannehill level. Those guys are solid, but will never elevate their team in the big spot to get them over the hump. Daniel Jones is not going to go steal you games on a regular basis. He needs to be surrounded with the right group to be successful and he's clearly not here and doesn't have the ability to put the team on his back, in my opinion. And I do like him, had no issue with Gettleman taking him and still dont, if you believe in the player which I think they genuinely did then you draft him at 6 as a QB.
The mess started when they made one of the all time blunders by thinking the 2018 team was a playoff contender and Eli had something left in the tank. Anyone who believed Eli had something left in the tank should have been fired a long time ago. Mara hired a guy who believed that because thats what Mara wanted to believe. Mara botched the benching and threw McAdoo under the bus. McAdoo gets a ton of shit around here, but he was a lot better coach than most on here give him credit for. He runs circles around Shurmur, who was the worst Giants coach without even a close second since i started watching around 1995 consistently.
Saquon was just a remarkably poor pick at #2. It just made no sense on any level. If you don't like the QB's enough (I did like Darnold) then you take Chubb or Nelson. Taking a running back in that spot was just absurd, and outside of his rookie year, Saquon Barkley has not even come remotely close to justifying that pick. Barkley is a great kid and incredibly talented, but if you simply stuck by the never draft a running back top 5 overall no matter who it is in todays NFL you would be much better off. The team does not play that much worse offensively when he isn't on the field. Everyone wants to make him out to be the next coming of God but even when he's been on the field he has warts particularly in pass protection. It will never make sense to me taking a running back there.
The offensive line is still a train wreck. Zetiler who people on BBI somehow thought was a pro bowl caliber player has been a big dud. Hernandez has regressed. Thomas I think will be a good player but it hasn't been pretty so far this year. Center and RT who the hell knows what is going on there.
3 years into Gettlemans rebuild and I could easily argue this team is in worse shape now than they were 3 years ago at this time. He's bar none the worst GM the Giants have ever had and Gettleman should be fired like yesterday, Giants wont do that and they'll let him retire but they better muzzle him and take away any ability to make any kinds of trades or extensions of players contracts the rest of his tenure. Everything he has touched has turned into dogshit.
I would be looking to move on from players like Jabrill Peppers. I don't care if he's a good special teams player, he sucks as a safety and should not have had his 5th year option picked up, instead we'll be paying a guy 6 million next year to return punts. He's a worthless defensive player.
Linebacker Martinez is solid. Rest of the group doesn't inspire me. The defensive line is just thoroughly average. I like Lawrence but the rest of them I would move on from the first chance I had.
I have high hopes for McKinney, Bradberry is solid. There's 4 players on defense I would try to build the defense around going forward. Lawrence, Martinez, McKinney, Bradberry. The rest of the defense I wouldn't even consider giving an extension to any of them. Hopefully some of the young guys develop but I see a stunning lack of talent on that side of the ball each week.
Offensive skill positions are in desperate need of a talent influx. Slayton will never be a #1, but he can wind up being a solid complimentary player. But this team desperately needs a #1 receiver. And a reliable TE.
If QB is a need for the Giants, and it very well may be, then this roster going forward is the worst in the sport. A lot can change quickly though if they get the right QB and hire a decent GM. It's not something that needs to take 5 years, but when you hire clowns like Gettleman the only thing you're doing is doubling the amount of time it takes to rebuild the team.
This Giants team, in my opinion, is the worst of the last 3. They are incredibly boring, lack any type of playmakers on defense and very few on offense.
The Giants need to stop acting like they are such a classy organization and worrying about finding good people. They need to find better football players first and foremost. The talent on this team makes their ceiling 3-4 wins. And that will take a miracle at this point.
I would go into the GM search trying to find a pro personnel guy to run the team. I would absolutely positively not let Joe Judge pick the GM. I would give the new GM the ability to fire or retain Judge. If the new GM wants a different coach, then adios Joe Judge.
I have never agreed with every single word of a singular post before, but you nailed it. 100%, like every sentence.
This is all pretty spot on.
I'd add that the 2018 draft, and for that matter maybe even 2019, would have been prime for trading down, since this team had/has virtually no talent. I realize this is a bit of 20/20 hindsight, but... yea, the Saquon pick was kind of coupled with the last grasp 'Win with Eli'...
More picks always help. (Although, with DG picking, who knows... :-(
unfortunately we are rolling into next year with the same group including the GM.
Your comment about the organization being "classy", plus Mara's very slow decision making process will drag this thing out beyond next season.
A prime example of slow decision making is what you mentioned about hanging onto Eli and lying to themselves and the fans that this team still had a chance. Maybe he was trying to move on from Eli when that benching occurred but the RIDICULOUS backlash from the fans potentially forced Eli upon us for yet another year.
What we need is NOT a GM who has been cut from the Giants' cloth. Instead, we need to go outside and find someone who can bring a winning mentality to this organization.
I am quite honestly tired of John Mara's annual end of season speech where he tries to sell "hope" to the fans. There is no plan at all right now.
When DG came here his first press conference talked about bringing in hog mollies. We all like to make fun of that but I actually liked that idea. The problem is that never happened and I really do not know what plan has been executed at all. Whatever it is... it is not working.
that he cant take criticism? pressure? or is seeing ghosts like Darnold? doesn't own up to his play? NO! He may or may not be the answer, but lets at least give him a chance to develop along with the rest of the offense. Right now he's running for his life with only one real threat in Slayton and a leaky OL.
the mistake in my mind was well before 2018, but in 2013 with the infamous SB clock. I understood giving the 2012 team a chance to repeat. By the end of that season it was clear that that core was on fumes. The rebuild should have begun then.
I am more pro-Jones than many but Mook explained what he meant in his post.
Jones' rookie contract will essentially be wasted by the Giants sucking during that stretch... and Mook doesn't believe we should sign a big QB contract to anyone, let alone a slightly above average game manager... never mind, that in all likelihood the fans will have fully turned on him by then.
If that is how the next few years turns out, then Mook may well be right that Jones will end up elsewhere.
making proclamations about Daniel Jones early on in his second season either have not been paying attention to the last 30 years of the NFL, or you simply just don't like Daniel Jones.
Making statements like "he can't put the team on his back" and "clearly he's not going to work out in NY" or "he's slightly better than Tannehill/Cousins" or "he just isn't going to be the guy" is absolutely, positively bullshit that has no basis in evaluation or reality.
If he hasn't elevated the team and his play towards the end of this year and into next, I'll hand it to you.
But the lack of understanding of how young QBs develop into the NFL is incredible to me on this board. Well actually - i think deep down you guys do understand it, you just can't help yourselves when it comes to the Giants.
How did you guys feel about Josh Allen early on last year? Because he was playing worse than Daniel Jones. After they lost to New England early on, there were calls for him to be benched.
"there is no plan right now" is also another bullshit take with no basis in reality. They hired an out of the box brand new coach coach that came from New England and Alabama, and is trying to implement that style of program to our team, they have brand new coordinators. They are trying to build an identity with investments on the OL and defense. They have a young QB but very much need to build around him.
How is there not a plan? What team are you following exactly?
They might not be good at this moment but there is a plan - you just don't want to admit it.
Amazing how the Steelers knew about both him and brown
Brown is one thing, but my gut tells me Bell's issues were more about the Jets just being the Jets (aka total ass and the only team worse than the Giants), than about Bell himself
Agreed. He wants out, especially from Gase. He was one of the only bright spots on that team. He's not what he was at Pitt but he still has some juice.
RE: RE: Jets have outperformed us since Gettleman took over.
What would you do to fix it? You often come parachuting in and talking about how awful this franchise is (which is correct), but I never see you post any potential solutions or ideas to fix it?
Any potential GM’s you like? Move off Jones? Judge?
First idea would be to get rid of Gettleman, who never should have been hired.
Judge I actually like, but I fear he will get fired because of the shit hand he was dealt after next season. It's going to be a long road back, and fans are not going to be patient. This team has been a total train wreck since hurricane sandy.
I would bring in a a player personnel guy as GM. Zero interest in a cap guy being GM like Abrams. Cap guy's are valuable, but can't be picking players too. I don't think Judge has earned the right to pick his GM, and I still dont buy into that being the way to go in the NFL these days despite the 49ers doing it. I actually think Shannahan and Lynch will be fired in a couple years and could easily see them on the path of the Atlanta Falcons. Teams do not recover from losses like they had in the Super Bowl.
I don't dislike Daniel Jones, but it's clear that he's not going to work out in New York. In todays NFL a huge asset to a team is having a good franchise QB on a rookie deal, his rookie deal is going to be pissed away on a terrible football team and then what do you do, pay him big money? No thanks. He doesn't have franchise QB talent. He's on the level of a slightly better Kirk Cousins, Tannehill level. Those guys are solid, but will never elevate their team in the big spot to get them over the hump. Daniel Jones is not going to go steal you games on a regular basis. He needs to be surrounded with the right group to be successful and he's clearly not here and doesn't have the ability to put the team on his back, in my opinion. And I do like him, had no issue with Gettleman taking him and still dont, if you believe in the player which I think they genuinely did then you draft him at 6 as a QB.
The mess started when they made one of the all time blunders by thinking the 2018 team was a playoff contender and Eli had something left in the tank. Anyone who believed Eli had something left in the tank should have been fired a long time ago. Mara hired a guy who believed that because thats what Mara wanted to believe. Mara botched the benching and threw McAdoo under the bus. McAdoo gets a ton of shit around here, but he was a lot better coach than most on here give him credit for. He runs circles around Shurmur, who was the worst Giants coach without even a close second since i started watching around 1995 consistently.
Saquon was just a remarkably poor pick at #2. It just made no sense on any level. If you don't like the QB's enough (I did like Darnold) then you take Chubb or Nelson. Taking a running back in that spot was just absurd, and outside of his rookie year, Saquon Barkley has not even come remotely close to justifying that pick. Barkley is a great kid and incredibly talented, but if you simply stuck by the never draft a running back top 5 overall no matter who it is in todays NFL you would be much better off. The team does not play that much worse offensively when he isn't on the field. Everyone wants to make him out to be the next coming of God but even when he's been on the field he has warts particularly in pass protection. It will never make sense to me taking a running back there.
The offensive line is still a train wreck. Zetiler who people on BBI somehow thought was a pro bowl caliber player has been a big dud. Hernandez has regressed. Thomas I think will be a good player but it hasn't been pretty so far this year. Center and RT who the hell knows what is going on there.
3 years into Gettlemans rebuild and I could easily argue this team is in worse shape now than they were 3 years ago at this time. He's bar none the worst GM the Giants have ever had and Gettleman should be fired like yesterday, Giants wont do that and they'll let him retire but they better muzzle him and take away any ability to make any kinds of trades or extensions of players contracts the rest of his tenure. Everything he has touched has turned into dogshit.
I would be looking to move on from players like Jabrill Peppers. I don't care if he's a good special teams player, he sucks as a safety and should not have had his 5th year option picked up, instead we'll be paying a guy 6 million next year to return punts. He's a worthless defensive player.
Linebacker Martinez is solid. Rest of the group doesn't inspire me. The defensive line is just thoroughly average. I like Lawrence but the rest of them I would move on from the first chance I had.
I have high hopes for McKinney, Bradberry is solid. There's 4 players on defense I would try to build the defense around going forward. Lawrence, Martinez, McKinney, Bradberry. The rest of the defense I wouldn't even consider giving an extension to any of them. Hopefully some of the young guys develop but I see a stunning lack of talent on that side of the ball each week.
Offensive skill positions are in desperate need of a talent influx. Slayton will never be a #1, but he can wind up being a solid complimentary player. But this team desperately needs a #1 receiver. And a reliable TE.
If QB is a need for the Giants, and it very well may be, then this roster going forward is the worst in the sport. A lot can change quickly though if they get the right QB and hire a decent GM. It's not something that needs to take 5 years, but when you hire clowns like Gettleman the only thing you're doing is doubling the amount of time it takes to rebuild the team.
This Giants team, in my opinion, is the worst of the last 3. They are incredibly boring, lack any type of playmakers on defense and very few on offense.
The Giants need to stop acting like they are such a classy organization and worrying about finding good people. They need to find better football players first and foremost. The talent on this team makes their ceiling 3-4 wins. And that will take a miracle at this point.
I would go into the GM search trying to find a pro personnel guy to run the team. I would absolutely positively not let Joe Judge pick the GM. I would give the new GM the ability to fire or retain Judge. If the new GM wants a different coach, then adios Joe Judge.
Mook, thoughtful post. I disagree with how clear it is that Jones will not work out with NYG. Your view seems hasty considering he has barely started a full season with all that he has to endure. I understand your point about his rookie deal and it is valid, but it seems you have decided already, now, that he won't work out. To me, next year will be more the deciding year on Jones, as he will have a whole year under this offense with the same coaching staff likely (I can't see Judge not being here, or anyone taking Garrett yet). The team will also have had another year to gather talent. I also understand the POV on a player like Trevor Lawrence of the Giants were in that position, however, let us cross that bridge if we even come to it.
Two places I’d disagree. Judge will get 3 years minimum and probably 4/5. Zero chance he’s done after 2. And your evaluation of Jones is justified but I don’t think it’s true. Look at last week. We all saw the 16 bad OL plays video. Jones turned more than half of them into completions. That’s not definitive but it shows something. I’m not sure about him bit the Tannehill comparisons are certainly premature.
While it is obviously great to have a top QB on a rookie deal I think what is also clear is that if that QB is a top-6 guy, the franchise keeps him.
Therefore, while it is amazing to have a top QB on a rookie deal, it is just as imperative to have a top QB period. and no matter how you obtain one, every team needs to be pursuing that goal. When there was talk Russell Wilson might be available (something I never believed) many thought it would be a bad move. NO that would have been an amazing move, because amazing QB play is the primary way you win in this league.
So the objective is to get a great QB, and better if he's on a rookie deal. Having said that, I don't think Daniel Jones has shown enough ability to think he will emerge as a top QB in this league and unless his play picks up dramatically, the Giants should look elsewhere at the end of the season.
Lack of talent starts with DG and the scouting department, and runs down into the depths of the roster. Their drafts aren't producing much, their UFA and trade decisions stink, they're essentially capped out while they're at it.
They have leadership and an overall strategy problems. This is where promoting Abrams scares me, this is where the talk of giving Judge more power scares me. It sounds like next step actions Mara would authorize, and it's clear to me they desperately need to change the way they do football business.
The Giants need to stop acting like they are such a classy organization and worrying about finding good people. They need to find better football players first and foremost. The talent on this team makes their ceiling 3-4 wins. And that will take a miracle at this point.
This doesn't get nearly enough talk in the NYC sports talk landscape. Not nearly. The Giants have been playing the holier than thou card now for decades and that's all well n good when the team wins, and even then it's pretty much bullshit because we all know the Giants are far from this beacon of righteousness, but the last 10 years or so this team has failed to do whatever it takes to win. Mara, who never speaks for real only in platitudes and covering up BS talk, can say what he wants about exploring everything, so can the GM, and they can fucking shove that horse crap nonsense up their ass because it's flat out lies. the Giants don't explore everything. They eliminate certain "demographics" --lack of a better word, from the player pool, coaching pool and front office exec pool, and we all know this to be true.
Aldon Smith was just sitting there and he would have been by far the best front 7 attacker on this team but no no no, the Giants don't sink to that level do they. Fuck no. Let him go to Dallas where he leads the league in sacks. Not good enough for the Giants Sunday School hit brigade.
Enough already! sign anyone that can help here and enough with the obligatory signings that never move the needle but ensure that MAra gets through the pearly gates. I am fucking so done with their act.
why the fuck didn't we try to sign this guy? Because he's a bit of a loose cannon? Not good enough for the Giants. Good enough to lead a good defense though.
"there is no plan right now" is also another bullshit take with no basis in reality. They hired an out of the box brand new coach coach that came from New England and Alabama, and is trying to implement that style of program to our team, they have brand new coordinators. They are trying to build an identity with investments on the OL and defense. They have a young QB but very much need to build around him.
How is there not a plan? What team are you following exactly?
They might not be good at this moment but there is a plan - you just don't want to admit it.
The problem with what you're saying is that as a franchise they are in the midst of their 3rd "plan" in three years. Vague terms aside, it's difficult to pinpoint what the actual plan is.
"there is no plan right now" is also another bullshit take with no basis in reality. They hired an out of the box brand new coach coach that came from New England and Alabama, and is trying to implement that style of program to our team, they have brand new coordinators. They are trying to build an identity with investments on the OL and defense. They have a young QB but very much need to build around him.
How is there not a plan? What team are you following exactly?
They might not be good at this moment but there is a plan - you just don't want to admit it.
The problem with what you're saying is that as a franchise they are in the midst of their 3rd "plan" in three years. Vague terms aside, it's difficult to pinpoint what the actual plan is.
Well stated. It also means one of two things;
1) It confirms there is no plan
2) There have been multiple "plans" in the last 3 years and each of them has sucked.
Either way, it's a pretty damning indictment of DG.
"there is no plan right now" is also another bullshit take with no basis in reality. They hired an out of the box brand new coach coach that came from New England and Alabama, and is trying to implement that style of program to our team, they have brand new coordinators. They are trying to build an identity with investments on the OL and defense. They have a young QB but very much need to build around him.
How is there not a plan? What team are you following exactly?
They might not be good at this moment but there is a plan - you just don't want to admit it.
The problem with what you're saying is that as a franchise they are in the midst of their 3rd "plan" in three years. Vague terms aside, it's difficult to pinpoint what the actual plan is.
I would say the plan all along was to rebuild the lines which is logical. There have been significant resources spent on rebuilding the lines, although the actual players must actually pan out.
I would say the plan all along was to rebuild the lines which is logical. There have been significant resources spent on rebuilding the lines, although the actual players must actually pan out.
"Fix the OL" isn't a plan, it's a goal. Think in terms of a golfer who says, "I want to break 80". That's a goal, the plan is the steps you need to take to reach it.
On a macro level, what does this organization hope to be, and how do they plan to go about it? If their goal is to rebuild on both lines, how do they do it? Cluster drafting? Trades? High-level free agents? Depth signings?
To be blunt, their plans to this point appear to be more "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks" which clearly has not worked.
I would say the plan all along was to rebuild the lines which is logical. There have been significant resources spent on rebuilding the lines, although the actual players must actually pan out.
"Fix the OL" isn't a plan, it's a goal. Think in terms of a golfer who says, "I want to break 80". That's a goal, the plan is the steps you need to take to reach it.
On a macro level, what does this organization hope to be, and how do they plan to go about it? If their goal is to rebuild on both lines, how do they do it? Cluster drafting? Trades? High-level free agents? Depth signings?
To be blunt, their plans to this point appear to be more "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks" which clearly has not worked.
Did you intentionally simply my response? I said fix the lines, it is a philosophy. The goal was to build inside out.
The plan is to be a winning football team which will be met by building inside out.
That's still not a plan. It's a mission statement, at best.
You said above there have three plans in three years. What were those plans?
Glad you asked, and mind you, I'm not saying these are well-crafted plans (because they weren't) but here you go...
Plan #1 - "Go for one more run with Eli Manning." Regime change in the GM office. Hire an offensive-minded head coach. Sign offensive lineman to protect the QB, and draft a RB with the #2 overall pick to give him another weapon for his offense, while hoping the defense holds together.
Plan #2 - "Oh shit, plan #1 failed miserably". This was more of a scattershot reactionary plan to the unequivocal failure of plan #1. Trading or cutting "malcontent" players, drafting Eli's replacement but bringing him along slowly. More whack-a-mole roster construction.
Plan #2a - "Fuck it, let's play Jones now".
Plan #3 - "Do over." GM stays but coach and QB go. Draft focus on OL to protect their investment at QB. It's not entirely clear what the plans are going forward.
Point being, the Giants organization has no identity, and your plans are only as good as the people making them.
The plan is to be a winning football team which will be met by building inside out.
That's still not a plan. It's a mission statement, at best.
You said above there have three plans in three years. What were those plans?
Glad you asked, and mind you, I'm not saying these are well-crafted plans (because they weren't) but here you go...
Plan #1 - "Go for one more run with Eli Manning." Regime change in the GM office. Hire an offensive-minded head coach. Sign offensive lineman to protect the QB, and draft a RB with the #2 overall pick to give him another weapon for his offense, while hoping the defense holds together.
Plan #2 - "Oh shit, plan #1 failed miserably". This was more of a scattershot reactionary plan to the unequivocal failure of plan #1. Trading or cutting "malcontent" players, drafting Eli's replacement but bringing him along slowly. More whack-a-mole roster construction.
Plan #2a - "Fuck it, let's play Jones now".
Plan #3 - "Do over." GM stays but coach and QB go. Draft focus on OL to protect their investment at QB. It's not entirely clear what the plans are going forward.
Point being, the Giants organization has no identity, and your plans are only as good as the people making them.
Thanks for the response. How I read that is, when plan number one failed panic ensued which labored their decisions for plan 2 and so on.
I see your point. I also appreciate not shouting your pov as is seemingly the thing to do here.
The plan is to be a winning football team which will be met by building inside out.
That's still not a plan. It's a mission statement, at best.
You said above there have three plans in three years. What were those plans?
Glad you asked, and mind you, I'm not saying these are well-crafted plans (because they weren't) but here you go...
Plan #1 - "Go for one more run with Eli Manning." Regime change in the GM office. Hire an offensive-minded head coach. Sign offensive lineman to protect the QB, and draft a RB with the #2 overall pick to give him another weapon for his offense, while hoping the defense holds together.
Plan #2 - "Oh shit, plan #1 failed miserably". This was more of a scattershot reactionary plan to the unequivocal failure of plan #1. Trading or cutting "malcontent" players, drafting Eli's replacement but bringing him along slowly. More whack-a-mole roster construction.
Plan #2a - "Fuck it, let's play Jones now".
Plan #3 - "Do over." GM stays but coach and QB go. Draft focus on OL to protect their investment at QB. It's not entirely clear what the plans are going forward.
Point being, the Giants organization has no identity, and your plans are only as good as the people making them.
Thanks for the response. How I read that is, when plan number one failed panic ensued which labored their decisions for plan 2 and so on.
I see your point. I also appreciate not shouting your pov as is seemingly the thing to do here.
I think this is the best back-and-forth I've seen in weeks here (and I say that knowing that I've contributed to more than my fair share of derailed debates). Very thoughtful and well reasoned, carefully articulated, respectfully delivered on both sides.
The plan is to be a winning football team which will be met by building inside out.
That's still not a plan. It's a mission statement, at best.
You said above there have three plans in three years. What were those plans?
Glad you asked, and mind you, I'm not saying these are well-crafted plans (because they weren't) but here you go...
Plan #1 - "Go for one more run with Eli Manning." Regime change in the GM office. Hire an offensive-minded head coach. Sign offensive lineman to protect the QB, and draft a RB with the #2 overall pick to give him another weapon for his offense, while hoping the defense holds together.
Plan #2 - "Oh shit, plan #1 failed miserably". This was more of a scattershot reactionary plan to the unequivocal failure of plan #1. Trading or cutting "malcontent" players, drafting Eli's replacement but bringing him along slowly. More whack-a-mole roster construction.
Plan #2a - "Fuck it, let's play Jones now".
Plan #3 - "Do over." GM stays but coach and QB go. Draft focus on OL to protect their investment at QB. It's not entirely clear what the plans are going forward.
Point being, the Giants organization has no identity, and your plans are only as good as the people making them.
I would suggest the plans Rsjem typed out above are likely more detailed than our Front Office created at the time.
Anyone saying anything definitive on Jones is just following a knee-jerk reaction to losing.
Or they can optimistically see the best QB prospect in a decade hovering on the horizon and are wondering whether it's better to commit to an Alex Smith type of upside in Jones, or swing for the fences with a Peyton/Luck level prospect in Lawrence.
I think it's important to contextualize the fact that a lot of what seems like impatience with Jones is also a byproduct of the possibility that the Giants may be in position to draft one of the top QB prospects to come out in a very long time. And committing to Jones, by definition, means that the team would be precluding themselves from the opportunity to add Lawrence.
The way I look at it is this - do you think, if the 49ers could redo the 2005 draft, that they'd still take Alex Smith instead of Aaron Rodgers? Smith was not a bust. He's been a successful NFL QB by almost any metric, especially measured against the bust rate for the position. But he's not Aaron Rodgers.
We can sit here and wait for Jones to become Alex Smith, and there won't be any shame in it if that's his ceiling. Or we can swing for the fences if a middle-in fastball gets grooved down the pipe.
RE: RE: It is way, way too early to give up on Jones
Anyone saying anything definitive on Jones is just following a knee-jerk reaction to losing.
Or they can optimistically see the best QB prospect in a decade hovering on the horizon and are wondering whether it's better to commit to an Alex Smith type of upside in Jones, or swing for the fences with a Peyton/Luck level prospect in Lawrence.
I think it's important to contextualize the fact that a lot of what seems like impatience with Jones is also a byproduct of the possibility that the Giants may be in position to draft one of the top QB prospects to come out in a very long time. And committing to Jones, by definition, means that the team would be precluding themselves from the opportunity to add Lawrence.
The way I look at it is this - do you think, if the 49ers could redo the 2005 draft, that they'd still take Alex Smith instead of Aaron Rodgers? Smith was not a bust. He's been a successful NFL QB by almost any metric, especially measured against the bust rate for the position. But he's not Aaron Rodgers.
We can sit here and wait for Jones to become Alex Smith, and there won't be any shame in it if that's his ceiling. Or we can swing for the fences if a middle-in fastball gets grooved down the pipe.
exactly.. either Jones takes a Brady-like jump or we're taking Lawrence if we have the top pick, and likely taking Fields or Lance of we're top-5.
The plan is to be a winning football team which will be met by building inside out.
That's still not a plan. It's a mission statement, at best.
You said above there have three plans in three years. What were those plans?
Glad you asked, and mind you, I'm not saying these are well-crafted plans (because they weren't) but here you go...
Plan #1 - "Go for one more run with Eli Manning." Regime change in the GM office. Hire an offensive-minded head coach. Sign offensive lineman to protect the QB, and draft a RB with the #2 overall pick to give him another weapon for his offense, while hoping the defense holds together.
Plan #2 - "Oh shit, plan #1 failed miserably". This was more of a scattershot reactionary plan to the unequivocal failure of plan #1. Trading or cutting "malcontent" players, drafting Eli's replacement but bringing him along slowly. More whack-a-mole roster construction.
Plan #2a - "Fuck it, let's play Jones now".
Plan #3 - "Do over." GM stays but coach and QB go. Draft focus on OL to protect their investment at QB. It's not entirely clear what the plans are going forward.
Point being, the Giants organization has no identity, and your plans are only as good as the people making them.
Lets not forget the reactionary signing of Golden Tate to assuage any potential outrage of trading OBJ... As if a slot receiver was going to replace an outside threat like OBJ...
But regarding what should have been the plan going into 2018...
They had just let go 4 out of the 5 starting OL, and the 5th was Flowers who was a failure at LT. THey were moving him to RT which should have been expected to fail, and a backup plan available.
Going into the 2018 draft, it was widely known that it was chock full of quality OL. THe deepest OL draft in at least a decade. The Giants had tons of draft capital having the #2 pick. The stars could not have aligned better. The "Plan" was writing itself. The Giants should have traded down, used their top of the draft resources on OL picks and built a solid OL that could stay together for a decade. A couple of days ago I posted all the OL players picked in just the top 3 rounds. There were I think 20, and all of them except for 2 are starters this year or were starting before being injured. And the only one we got is Hernandez who is performing in the bottom third of all those players.
They needed an RB, could have gotten one in the middle or late rounds, it turns out there have been a few good ones.
The next asinine decision was bringing in a DC that wanted to switch the Giants to a 3-4. The Giants were tooled as a 4-3, and had a defense 1 year removed from being one of the best in the league. There was no need to move away from the 4-3. The needed to fill in some better LBs, perhaps a corner to push Apple, and eventually replace JJ. They needed a FS. All of these needs could have been addressed through FA, or the mid to lower rounds of the draft. The following year, there were lots of top defensive talent at Edge, DL, and CB that could have been had to replace players like Vernon, JJ, and Harrison.
Instead they oicked a RB to run behind a putrid OL, went to the FA route to fix the OL, which I have preached over and over is no longer possible. The days of getting O'Haras and MacKenzies through FA have been over for a decade. Decided to completely tear down and rebuild a new defense. And the cherry on top of this ice cream sundae of a plan was to trade the ONLY halfway competent C on the team from an already hurting OL. Then they reach for a QB prematurely, and still largely ignore the OL (yes they traded for an aging G, and signed an aging RT, neither were long term solutions, and both had a high risk of failure). Absolutely NONE of this ever made any sense whatsoever.
Everything after the failures of 2018, has been reactionary to nuclear fallout from those disastrous decisions. If they didn't want to move on from Eli, the Giants didn't have to do that yet. They could have allowed him to be a caretaker (albeit an expensive one) at QB, until rebuilding the rest of the roster (or at least the OL) was nearly mature.
I always felt the the timing was right to go after a QB either in this year's draft or next year... Also this year had a number of very good WR...
Good scouting should have informed the plans in each of these years. They should always know the type of talent coming in the next 2 to 3 drafts and PLAN accordingly. That doesn't seem to happen. The Draft Plans should have focused on playing into the strengths of each year's crop of talent and attacking the high value positions (OL, Edge, CB, QB). Instead, the Giants thought they were smarter and played into the weaknesses of those drafts and grabbed players at positions of lesser relative value. The plan for FA should be to fill in those positions of lesser relative value, LB, S, DL, slot WR, RB. Good players at those position are still available in FA. Good players at high value positions are rarely available in FA, and the cost a king's ransom.
Whoever compared DJ to Alex Smith upside nailed it spot on
Of course that would be Alex Smith before his shoulder got fucked and his arm weakened. Alex Smith was on his way to being a pretty damn good before that injury. Still crafted a pretty good career out for himself considering his limitations. Funny how people forget about these things.
To me that's his upside right now. Never going to be a consistently elite QB, but if that's your idea of solving the QB issue you'll find yourself the laughing stock of the league with exQBs finding success elsewhere unless you get very lucky.
Shit Trevor Lawrence is as good a prospect at the position since Andrew Luck, but there is no gurantee he's going to be elite. I just happen to think his floor is very high. I thought Luck was a better prospect personally and that's because he played at Stanford. Hard to judge guys when the playing field is only close to even maybe 2 or 3 times a year. I notice people pointing out his NC game against Bama 2(?) years ago. forgetting Bama's defense was trash that year. Well trash by SEC standards.
DJ is not a good fit because his rookie contract will run out
Well if we could draft a QB who is whoever and he steps in and is immediately crowned a franchise QB that would work great. If we continue to try to get the optimum situation out of the QB it could take a long time to build the dream team. We need better football minds running the operation to give us better personnel. Good coaching to develop players. Al little luck in hitting on draft choices along with less injuries to key personnel. That would be my plan. It starts at the top of the organization.
I agree with most of it. I disagree with moving off Judge if the new GM wants to. While I don’t think Judge should pick the GM, I would like one of the NE personnel guys to come in to work with Judge.
Judge was hired to build a program here, I wouldn’t bail a year in.
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What would you do to fix it? You often come parachuting in and talking about how awful this franchise is (which is correct), but I never see you post any potential solutions or ideas to fix it?
Any potential GM’s you like? Move off Jones? Judge?
First idea would be to get rid of Gettleman, who never should have been hired.
Judge I actually like, but I fear he will get fired because of the shit hand he was dealt after next season. It's going to be a long road back, and fans are not going to be patient. This team has been a total train wreck since hurricane sandy.
I would bring in a a player personnel guy as GM. Zero interest in a cap guy being GM like Abrams. Cap guy's are valuable, but can't be picking players too. I don't think Judge has earned the right to pick his GM, and I still dont buy into that being the way to go in the NFL these days despite the 49ers doing it. I actually think Shannahan and Lynch will be fired in a couple years and could easily see them on the path of the Atlanta Falcons. Teams do not recover from losses like they had in the Super Bowl.
I don't dislike Daniel Jones, but it's clear that he's not going to work out in New York. In todays NFL a huge asset to a team is having a good franchise QB on a rookie deal, his rookie deal is going to be pissed away on a terrible football team and then what do you do, pay him big money? No thanks. He doesn't have franchise QB talent. He's on the level of a slightly better Kirk Cousins, Tannehill level. Those guys are solid, but will never elevate their team in the big spot to get them over the hump. Daniel Jones is not going to go steal you games on a regular basis. He needs to be surrounded with the right group to be successful and he's clearly not here and doesn't have the ability to put the team on his back, in my opinion. And I do like him, had no issue with Gettleman taking him and still dont, if you believe in the player which I think they genuinely did then you draft him at 6 as a QB.
The mess started when they made one of the all time blunders by thinking the 2018 team was a playoff contender and Eli had something left in the tank. Anyone who believed Eli had something left in the tank should have been fired a long time ago. Mara hired a guy who believed that because thats what Mara wanted to believe. Mara botched the benching and threw McAdoo under the bus. McAdoo gets a ton of shit around here, but he was a lot better coach than most on here give him credit for. He runs circles around Shurmur, who was the worst Giants coach without even a close second since i started watching around 1995 consistently.
Saquon was just a remarkably poor pick at #2. It just made no sense on any level. If you don't like the QB's enough (I did like Darnold) then you take Chubb or Nelson. Taking a running back in that spot was just absurd, and outside of his rookie year, Saquon Barkley has not even come remotely close to justifying that pick. Barkley is a great kid and incredibly talented, but if you simply stuck by the never draft a running back top 5 overall no matter who it is in todays NFL you would be much better off. The team does not play that much worse offensively when he isn't on the field. Everyone wants to make him out to be the next coming of God but even when he's been on the field he has warts particularly in pass protection. It will never make sense to me taking a running back there.
The offensive line is still a train wreck. Zetiler who people on BBI somehow thought was a pro bowl caliber player has been a big dud. Hernandez has regressed. Thomas I think will be a good player but it hasn't been pretty so far this year. Center and RT who the hell knows what is going on there.
3 years into Gettlemans rebuild and I could easily argue this team is in worse shape now than they were 3 years ago at this time. He's bar none the worst GM the Giants have ever had and Gettleman should be fired like yesterday, Giants wont do that and they'll let him retire but they better muzzle him and take away any ability to make any kinds of trades or extensions of players contracts the rest of his tenure. Everything he has touched has turned into dogshit.
I would be looking to move on from players like Jabrill Peppers. I don't care if he's a good special teams player, he sucks as a safety and should not have had his 5th year option picked up, instead we'll be paying a guy 6 million next year to return punts. He's a worthless defensive player.
Linebacker Martinez is solid. Rest of the group doesn't inspire me. The defensive line is just thoroughly average. I like Lawrence but the rest of them I would move on from the first chance I had.
I have high hopes for McKinney, Bradberry is solid. There's 4 players on defense I would try to build the defense around going forward. Lawrence, Martinez, McKinney, Bradberry. The rest of the defense I wouldn't even consider giving an extension to any of them. Hopefully some of the young guys develop but I see a stunning lack of talent on that side of the ball each week.
Offensive skill positions are in desperate need of a talent influx. Slayton will never be a #1, but he can wind up being a solid complimentary player. But this team desperately needs a #1 receiver. And a reliable TE.
If QB is a need for the Giants, and it very well may be, then this roster going forward is the worst in the sport. A lot can change quickly though if they get the right QB and hire a decent GM. It's not something that needs to take 5 years, but when you hire clowns like Gettleman the only thing you're doing is doubling the amount of time it takes to rebuild the team.
This Giants team, in my opinion, is the worst of the last 3. They are incredibly boring, lack any type of playmakers on defense and very few on offense.
The Giants need to stop acting like they are such a classy organization and worrying about finding good people. They need to find better football players first and foremost. The talent on this team makes their ceiling 3-4 wins. And that will take a miracle at this point.
I would go into the GM search trying to find a pro personnel guy to run the team. I would absolutely positively not let Joe Judge pick the GM. I would give the new GM the ability to fire or retain Judge. If the new GM wants a different coach, then adios Joe Judge.
Lol. “Yes.” Let’s have a backfield of Davonta Freeman and Levon Bell!
Perhaps Bell can rebound as he isn't that old?
Perhaps Bell can rebound as he isn't that old?
I agree. If we can sign him, he can replace Lewis. Bell and Freeman would make a good running back pair.
His approach to putting in young guys for development appears new to the Giants, from what I recall
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In comment 15008349 Sean said:
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What would you do to fix it? You often come parachuting in and talking about how awful this franchise is (which is correct), but I never see you post any potential solutions or ideas to fix it?
Any potential GM’s you like? Move off Jones? Judge?
First idea would be to get rid of Gettleman, who never should have been hired.
Judge I actually like, but I fear he will get fired because of the shit hand he was dealt after next season. It's going to be a long road back, and fans are not going to be patient. This team has been a total train wreck since hurricane sandy.
I would bring in a a player personnel guy as GM. Zero interest in a cap guy being GM like Abrams. Cap guy's are valuable, but can't be picking players too. I don't think Judge has earned the right to pick his GM, and I still dont buy into that being the way to go in the NFL these days despite the 49ers doing it. I actually think Shannahan and Lynch will be fired in a couple years and could easily see them on the path of the Atlanta Falcons. Teams do not recover from losses like they had in the Super Bowl.
I don't dislike Daniel Jones, but it's clear that he's not going to work out in New York. In todays NFL a huge asset to a team is having a good franchise QB on a rookie deal, his rookie deal is going to be pissed away on a terrible football team and then what do you do, pay him big money? No thanks. He doesn't have franchise QB talent. He's on the level of a slightly better Kirk Cousins, Tannehill level. Those guys are solid, but will never elevate their team in the big spot to get them over the hump. Daniel Jones is not going to go steal you games on a regular basis. He needs to be surrounded with the right group to be successful and he's clearly not here and doesn't have the ability to put the team on his back, in my opinion. And I do like him, had no issue with Gettleman taking him and still dont, if you believe in the player which I think they genuinely did then you draft him at 6 as a QB.
The mess started when they made one of the all time blunders by thinking the 2018 team was a playoff contender and Eli had something left in the tank. Anyone who believed Eli had something left in the tank should have been fired a long time ago. Mara hired a guy who believed that because thats what Mara wanted to believe. Mara botched the benching and threw McAdoo under the bus. McAdoo gets a ton of shit around here, but he was a lot better coach than most on here give him credit for. He runs circles around Shurmur, who was the worst Giants coach without even a close second since i started watching around 1995 consistently.
Saquon was just a remarkably poor pick at #2. It just made no sense on any level. If you don't like the QB's enough (I did like Darnold) then you take Chubb or Nelson. Taking a running back in that spot was just absurd, and outside of his rookie year, Saquon Barkley has not even come remotely close to justifying that pick. Barkley is a great kid and incredibly talented, but if you simply stuck by the never draft a running back top 5 overall no matter who it is in todays NFL you would be much better off. The team does not play that much worse offensively when he isn't on the field. Everyone wants to make him out to be the next coming of God but even when he's been on the field he has warts particularly in pass protection. It will never make sense to me taking a running back there.
The offensive line is still a train wreck. Zetiler who people on BBI somehow thought was a pro bowl caliber player has been a big dud. Hernandez has regressed. Thomas I think will be a good player but it hasn't been pretty so far this year. Center and RT who the hell knows what is going on there.
3 years into Gettlemans rebuild and I could easily argue this team is in worse shape now than they were 3 years ago at this time. He's bar none the worst GM the Giants have ever had and Gettleman should be fired like yesterday, Giants wont do that and they'll let him retire but they better muzzle him and take away any ability to make any kinds of trades or extensions of players contracts the rest of his tenure. Everything he has touched has turned into dogshit.
I would be looking to move on from players like Jabrill Peppers. I don't care if he's a good special teams player, he sucks as a safety and should not have had his 5th year option picked up, instead we'll be paying a guy 6 million next year to return punts. He's a worthless defensive player.
Linebacker Martinez is solid. Rest of the group doesn't inspire me. The defensive line is just thoroughly average. I like Lawrence but the rest of them I would move on from the first chance I had.
I have high hopes for McKinney, Bradberry is solid. There's 4 players on defense I would try to build the defense around going forward. Lawrence, Martinez, McKinney, Bradberry. The rest of the defense I wouldn't even consider giving an extension to any of them. Hopefully some of the young guys develop but I see a stunning lack of talent on that side of the ball each week.
Offensive skill positions are in desperate need of a talent influx. Slayton will never be a #1, but he can wind up being a solid complimentary player. But this team desperately needs a #1 receiver. And a reliable TE.
If QB is a need for the Giants, and it very well may be, then this roster going forward is the worst in the sport. A lot can change quickly though if they get the right QB and hire a decent GM. It's not something that needs to take 5 years, but when you hire clowns like Gettleman the only thing you're doing is doubling the amount of time it takes to rebuild the team.
This Giants team, in my opinion, is the worst of the last 3. They are incredibly boring, lack any type of playmakers on defense and very few on offense.
The Giants need to stop acting like they are such a classy organization and worrying about finding good people. They need to find better football players first and foremost. The talent on this team makes their ceiling 3-4 wins. And that will take a miracle at this point.
I would go into the GM search trying to find a pro personnel guy to run the team. I would absolutely positively not let Joe Judge pick the GM. I would give the new GM the ability to fire or retain Judge. If the new GM wants a different coach, then adios Joe Judge.
I have never agreed with every single word of a singular post before, but you nailed it. 100%, like every sentence.
This is all pretty spot on.
I'd add that the 2018 draft, and for that matter maybe even 2019, would have been prime for trading down, since this team had/has virtually no talent. I realize this is a bit of 20/20 hindsight, but... yea, the Saquon pick was kind of coupled with the last grasp 'Win with Eli'...
More picks always help. (Although, with DG picking, who knows... :-(
Your comment about the organization being "classy", plus Mara's very slow decision making process will drag this thing out beyond next season.
A prime example of slow decision making is what you mentioned about hanging onto Eli and lying to themselves and the fans that this team still had a chance. Maybe he was trying to move on from Eli when that benching occurred but the RIDICULOUS backlash from the fans potentially forced Eli upon us for yet another year.
What we need is NOT a GM who has been cut from the Giants' cloth. Instead, we need to go outside and find someone who can bring a winning mentality to this organization.
I am quite honestly tired of John Mara's annual end of season speech where he tries to sell "hope" to the fans. There is no plan at all right now.
When DG came here his first press conference talked about bringing in hog mollies. We all like to make fun of that but I actually liked that idea. The problem is that never happened and I really do not know what plan has been executed at all. Whatever it is... it is not working.
the mistake in my mind was well before 2018, but in 2013 with the infamous SB clock. I understood giving the 2012 team a chance to repeat. By the end of that season it was clear that that core was on fumes. The rebuild should have begun then.
I agree with nearly everything stated.
Jones' rookie contract will essentially be wasted by the Giants sucking during that stretch... and Mook doesn't believe we should sign a big QB contract to anyone, let alone a slightly above average game manager... never mind, that in all likelihood the fans will have fully turned on him by then.
If that is how the next few years turns out, then Mook may well be right that Jones will end up elsewhere.
Making statements like "he can't put the team on his back" and "clearly he's not going to work out in NY" or "he's slightly better than Tannehill/Cousins" or "he just isn't going to be the guy" is absolutely, positively bullshit that has no basis in evaluation or reality.
If he hasn't elevated the team and his play towards the end of this year and into next, I'll hand it to you.
But the lack of understanding of how young QBs develop into the NFL is incredible to me on this board. Well actually - i think deep down you guys do understand it, you just can't help yourselves when it comes to the Giants.
How did you guys feel about Josh Allen early on last year? Because he was playing worse than Daniel Jones. After they lost to New England early on, there were calls for him to be benched.
How is there not a plan? What team are you following exactly?
They might not be good at this moment but there is a plan - you just don't want to admit it.
Can't have it both ways guys, sorry.
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Amazing how the Steelers knew about both him and brown
Brown is one thing, but my gut tells me Bell's issues were more about the Jets just being the Jets (aka total ass and the only team worse than the Giants), than about Bell himself
Agreed. He wants out, especially from Gase. He was one of the only bright spots on that team. He's not what he was at Pitt but he still has some juice.
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Now they’re gonna fall ass backwards into Lawrence. We can’t even lose properly.
Out preformed the Giants???ok then
If only there was a way to quantify it...
Oh, wait - there is!
NYJ: 11-26
NYG: 9-28
Can't have it both ways guys, sorry.
Enjoy your moral victories.
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What would you do to fix it? You often come parachuting in and talking about how awful this franchise is (which is correct), but I never see you post any potential solutions or ideas to fix it?
Any potential GM’s you like? Move off Jones? Judge?
First idea would be to get rid of Gettleman, who never should have been hired.
Judge I actually like, but I fear he will get fired because of the shit hand he was dealt after next season. It's going to be a long road back, and fans are not going to be patient. This team has been a total train wreck since hurricane sandy.
I would bring in a a player personnel guy as GM. Zero interest in a cap guy being GM like Abrams. Cap guy's are valuable, but can't be picking players too. I don't think Judge has earned the right to pick his GM, and I still dont buy into that being the way to go in the NFL these days despite the 49ers doing it. I actually think Shannahan and Lynch will be fired in a couple years and could easily see them on the path of the Atlanta Falcons. Teams do not recover from losses like they had in the Super Bowl.
I don't dislike Daniel Jones, but it's clear that he's not going to work out in New York. In todays NFL a huge asset to a team is having a good franchise QB on a rookie deal, his rookie deal is going to be pissed away on a terrible football team and then what do you do, pay him big money? No thanks. He doesn't have franchise QB talent. He's on the level of a slightly better Kirk Cousins, Tannehill level. Those guys are solid, but will never elevate their team in the big spot to get them over the hump. Daniel Jones is not going to go steal you games on a regular basis. He needs to be surrounded with the right group to be successful and he's clearly not here and doesn't have the ability to put the team on his back, in my opinion. And I do like him, had no issue with Gettleman taking him and still dont, if you believe in the player which I think they genuinely did then you draft him at 6 as a QB.
The mess started when they made one of the all time blunders by thinking the 2018 team was a playoff contender and Eli had something left in the tank. Anyone who believed Eli had something left in the tank should have been fired a long time ago. Mara hired a guy who believed that because thats what Mara wanted to believe. Mara botched the benching and threw McAdoo under the bus. McAdoo gets a ton of shit around here, but he was a lot better coach than most on here give him credit for. He runs circles around Shurmur, who was the worst Giants coach without even a close second since i started watching around 1995 consistently.
Saquon was just a remarkably poor pick at #2. It just made no sense on any level. If you don't like the QB's enough (I did like Darnold) then you take Chubb or Nelson. Taking a running back in that spot was just absurd, and outside of his rookie year, Saquon Barkley has not even come remotely close to justifying that pick. Barkley is a great kid and incredibly talented, but if you simply stuck by the never draft a running back top 5 overall no matter who it is in todays NFL you would be much better off. The team does not play that much worse offensively when he isn't on the field. Everyone wants to make him out to be the next coming of God but even when he's been on the field he has warts particularly in pass protection. It will never make sense to me taking a running back there.
The offensive line is still a train wreck. Zetiler who people on BBI somehow thought was a pro bowl caliber player has been a big dud. Hernandez has regressed. Thomas I think will be a good player but it hasn't been pretty so far this year. Center and RT who the hell knows what is going on there.
3 years into Gettlemans rebuild and I could easily argue this team is in worse shape now than they were 3 years ago at this time. He's bar none the worst GM the Giants have ever had and Gettleman should be fired like yesterday, Giants wont do that and they'll let him retire but they better muzzle him and take away any ability to make any kinds of trades or extensions of players contracts the rest of his tenure. Everything he has touched has turned into dogshit.
I would be looking to move on from players like Jabrill Peppers. I don't care if he's a good special teams player, he sucks as a safety and should not have had his 5th year option picked up, instead we'll be paying a guy 6 million next year to return punts. He's a worthless defensive player.
Linebacker Martinez is solid. Rest of the group doesn't inspire me. The defensive line is just thoroughly average. I like Lawrence but the rest of them I would move on from the first chance I had.
I have high hopes for McKinney, Bradberry is solid. There's 4 players on defense I would try to build the defense around going forward. Lawrence, Martinez, McKinney, Bradberry. The rest of the defense I wouldn't even consider giving an extension to any of them. Hopefully some of the young guys develop but I see a stunning lack of talent on that side of the ball each week.
Offensive skill positions are in desperate need of a talent influx. Slayton will never be a #1, but he can wind up being a solid complimentary player. But this team desperately needs a #1 receiver. And a reliable TE.
If QB is a need for the Giants, and it very well may be, then this roster going forward is the worst in the sport. A lot can change quickly though if they get the right QB and hire a decent GM. It's not something that needs to take 5 years, but when you hire clowns like Gettleman the only thing you're doing is doubling the amount of time it takes to rebuild the team.
This Giants team, in my opinion, is the worst of the last 3. They are incredibly boring, lack any type of playmakers on defense and very few on offense.
The Giants need to stop acting like they are such a classy organization and worrying about finding good people. They need to find better football players first and foremost. The talent on this team makes their ceiling 3-4 wins. And that will take a miracle at this point.
I would go into the GM search trying to find a pro personnel guy to run the team. I would absolutely positively not let Joe Judge pick the GM. I would give the new GM the ability to fire or retain Judge. If the new GM wants a different coach, then adios Joe Judge.
Mook, thoughtful post. I disagree with how clear it is that Jones will not work out with NYG. Your view seems hasty considering he has barely started a full season with all that he has to endure. I understand your point about his rookie deal and it is valid, but it seems you have decided already, now, that he won't work out. To me, next year will be more the deciding year on Jones, as he will have a whole year under this offense with the same coaching staff likely (I can't see Judge not being here, or anyone taking Garrett yet). The team will also have had another year to gather talent. I also understand the POV on a player like Trevor Lawrence of the Giants were in that position, however, let us cross that bridge if we even come to it.
Therefore, while it is amazing to have a top QB on a rookie deal, it is just as imperative to have a top QB period. and no matter how you obtain one, every team needs to be pursuing that goal. When there was talk Russell Wilson might be available (something I never believed) many thought it would be a bad move. NO that would have been an amazing move, because amazing QB play is the primary way you win in this league.
So the objective is to get a great QB, and better if he's on a rookie deal. Having said that, I don't think Daniel Jones has shown enough ability to think he will emerge as a top QB in this league and unless his play picks up dramatically, the Giants should look elsewhere at the end of the season.
Lack of talent starts with DG and the scouting department, and runs down into the depths of the roster. Their drafts aren't producing much, their UFA and trade decisions stink, they're essentially capped out while they're at it.
They have leadership and an overall strategy problems. This is where promoting Abrams scares me, this is where the talk of giving Judge more power scares me. It sounds like next step actions Mara would authorize, and it's clear to me they desperately need to change the way they do football business.
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Bad precedent for any organization but this is the world we live in.
The Giants need to stop acting like they are such a classy organization and worrying about finding good people. They need to find better football players first and foremost. The talent on this team makes their ceiling 3-4 wins. And that will take a miracle at this point.
This doesn't get nearly enough talk in the NYC sports talk landscape. Not nearly. The Giants have been playing the holier than thou card now for decades and that's all well n good when the team wins, and even then it's pretty much bullshit because we all know the Giants are far from this beacon of righteousness, but the last 10 years or so this team has failed to do whatever it takes to win. Mara, who never speaks for real only in platitudes and covering up BS talk, can say what he wants about exploring everything, so can the GM, and they can fucking shove that horse crap nonsense up their ass because it's flat out lies. the Giants don't explore everything. They eliminate certain "demographics" --lack of a better word, from the player pool, coaching pool and front office exec pool, and we all know this to be true.
Aldon Smith was just sitting there and he would have been by far the best front 7 attacker on this team but no no no, the Giants don't sink to that level do they. Fuck no. Let him go to Dallas where he leads the league in sacks. Not good enough for the Giants Sunday School hit brigade.
Enough already! sign anyone that can help here and enough with the obligatory signings that never move the needle but ensure that MAra gets through the pearly gates. I am fucking so done with their act.
How is there not a plan? What team are you following exactly?
They might not be good at this moment but there is a plan - you just don't want to admit it.
The problem with what you're saying is that as a franchise they are in the midst of their 3rd "plan" in three years. Vague terms aside, it's difficult to pinpoint what the actual plan is.
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"there is no plan right now" is also another bullshit take with no basis in reality. They hired an out of the box brand new coach coach that came from New England and Alabama, and is trying to implement that style of program to our team, they have brand new coordinators. They are trying to build an identity with investments on the OL and defense. They have a young QB but very much need to build around him.
How is there not a plan? What team are you following exactly?
They might not be good at this moment but there is a plan - you just don't want to admit it.
The problem with what you're saying is that as a franchise they are in the midst of their 3rd "plan" in three years. Vague terms aside, it's difficult to pinpoint what the actual plan is.
Well stated. It also means one of two things;
1) It confirms there is no plan
2) There have been multiple "plans" in the last 3 years and each of them has sucked.
Either way, it's a pretty damning indictment of DG.
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"there is no plan right now" is also another bullshit take with no basis in reality. They hired an out of the box brand new coach coach that came from New England and Alabama, and is trying to implement that style of program to our team, they have brand new coordinators. They are trying to build an identity with investments on the OL and defense. They have a young QB but very much need to build around him.
How is there not a plan? What team are you following exactly?
They might not be good at this moment but there is a plan - you just don't want to admit it.
The problem with what you're saying is that as a franchise they are in the midst of their 3rd "plan" in three years. Vague terms aside, it's difficult to pinpoint what the actual plan is.
I would say the plan all along was to rebuild the lines which is logical. There have been significant resources spent on rebuilding the lines, although the actual players must actually pan out.
I would say the plan all along was to rebuild the lines which is logical. There have been significant resources spent on rebuilding the lines, although the actual players must actually pan out.
"Fix the OL" isn't a plan, it's a goal. Think in terms of a golfer who says, "I want to break 80". That's a goal, the plan is the steps you need to take to reach it.
On a macro level, what does this organization hope to be, and how do they plan to go about it? If their goal is to rebuild on both lines, how do they do it? Cluster drafting? Trades? High-level free agents? Depth signings?
To be blunt, their plans to this point appear to be more "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks" which clearly has not worked.
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I would say the plan all along was to rebuild the lines which is logical. There have been significant resources spent on rebuilding the lines, although the actual players must actually pan out.
"Fix the OL" isn't a plan, it's a goal. Think in terms of a golfer who says, "I want to break 80". That's a goal, the plan is the steps you need to take to reach it.
On a macro level, what does this organization hope to be, and how do they plan to go about it? If their goal is to rebuild on both lines, how do they do it? Cluster drafting? Trades? High-level free agents? Depth signings?
To be blunt, their plans to this point appear to be more "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks" which clearly has not worked.
Did you intentionally simply my response? I said fix the lines, it is a philosophy. The goal was to build inside out.
That's still not a plan. It's a mission statement, at best.
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The plan is to be a winning football team which will be met by building inside out.
That's still not a plan. It's a mission statement, at best.
You said above there have three plans in three years. What were those plans?
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In comment 15008803 crick n NC said:
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The plan is to be a winning football team which will be met by building inside out.
That's still not a plan. It's a mission statement, at best.
You said above there have three plans in three years. What were those plans?
Glad you asked, and mind you, I'm not saying these are well-crafted plans (because they weren't) but here you go...
Plan #1 - "Go for one more run with Eli Manning." Regime change in the GM office. Hire an offensive-minded head coach. Sign offensive lineman to protect the QB, and draft a RB with the #2 overall pick to give him another weapon for his offense, while hoping the defense holds together.
Plan #2 - "Oh shit, plan #1 failed miserably". This was more of a scattershot reactionary plan to the unequivocal failure of plan #1. Trading or cutting "malcontent" players, drafting Eli's replacement but bringing him along slowly. More whack-a-mole roster construction.
Plan #2a - "Fuck it, let's play Jones now".
Plan #3 - "Do over." GM stays but coach and QB go. Draft focus on OL to protect their investment at QB. It's not entirely clear what the plans are going forward.
Point being, the Giants organization has no identity, and your plans are only as good as the people making them.
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In comment 15008807 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 15008803 crick n NC said:
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The plan is to be a winning football team which will be met by building inside out.
That's still not a plan. It's a mission statement, at best.
You said above there have three plans in three years. What were those plans?
Glad you asked, and mind you, I'm not saying these are well-crafted plans (because they weren't) but here you go...
Plan #1 - "Go for one more run with Eli Manning." Regime change in the GM office. Hire an offensive-minded head coach. Sign offensive lineman to protect the QB, and draft a RB with the #2 overall pick to give him another weapon for his offense, while hoping the defense holds together.
Plan #2 - "Oh shit, plan #1 failed miserably". This was more of a scattershot reactionary plan to the unequivocal failure of plan #1. Trading or cutting "malcontent" players, drafting Eli's replacement but bringing him along slowly. More whack-a-mole roster construction.
Plan #2a - "Fuck it, let's play Jones now".
Plan #3 - "Do over." GM stays but coach and QB go. Draft focus on OL to protect their investment at QB. It's not entirely clear what the plans are going forward.
Point being, the Giants organization has no identity, and your plans are only as good as the people making them.
Thanks for the response. How I read that is, when plan number one failed panic ensued which labored their decisions for plan 2 and so on.
I see your point. I also appreciate not shouting your pov as is seemingly the thing to do here.
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In comment 15008816 crick n NC said:
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In comment 15008807 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 15008803 crick n NC said:
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The plan is to be a winning football team which will be met by building inside out.
That's still not a plan. It's a mission statement, at best.
You said above there have three plans in three years. What were those plans?
Glad you asked, and mind you, I'm not saying these are well-crafted plans (because they weren't) but here you go...
Plan #1 - "Go for one more run with Eli Manning." Regime change in the GM office. Hire an offensive-minded head coach. Sign offensive lineman to protect the QB, and draft a RB with the #2 overall pick to give him another weapon for his offense, while hoping the defense holds together.
Plan #2 - "Oh shit, plan #1 failed miserably". This was more of a scattershot reactionary plan to the unequivocal failure of plan #1. Trading or cutting "malcontent" players, drafting Eli's replacement but bringing him along slowly. More whack-a-mole roster construction.
Plan #2a - "Fuck it, let's play Jones now".
Plan #3 - "Do over." GM stays but coach and QB go. Draft focus on OL to protect their investment at QB. It's not entirely clear what the plans are going forward.
Point being, the Giants organization has no identity, and your plans are only as good as the people making them.
Thanks for the response. How I read that is, when plan number one failed panic ensued which labored their decisions for plan 2 and so on.
I see your point. I also appreciate not shouting your pov as is seemingly the thing to do here.
I think this is the best back-and-forth I've seen in weeks here (and I say that knowing that I've contributed to more than my fair share of derailed debates). Very thoughtful and well reasoned, carefully articulated, respectfully delivered on both sides.
Bravo to both of you.
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In comment 15008807 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 15008803 crick n NC said:
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The plan is to be a winning football team which will be met by building inside out.
That's still not a plan. It's a mission statement, at best.
You said above there have three plans in three years. What were those plans?
Glad you asked, and mind you, I'm not saying these are well-crafted plans (because they weren't) but here you go...
Plan #1 - "Go for one more run with Eli Manning." Regime change in the GM office. Hire an offensive-minded head coach. Sign offensive lineman to protect the QB, and draft a RB with the #2 overall pick to give him another weapon for his offense, while hoping the defense holds together.
Plan #2 - "Oh shit, plan #1 failed miserably". This was more of a scattershot reactionary plan to the unequivocal failure of plan #1. Trading or cutting "malcontent" players, drafting Eli's replacement but bringing him along slowly. More whack-a-mole roster construction.
Plan #2a - "Fuck it, let's play Jones now".
Plan #3 - "Do over." GM stays but coach and QB go. Draft focus on OL to protect their investment at QB. It's not entirely clear what the plans are going forward.
Point being, the Giants organization has no identity, and your plans are only as good as the people making them.
I would suggest the plans Rsjem typed out above are likely more detailed than our Front Office created at the time.
Or they can optimistically see the best QB prospect in a decade hovering on the horizon and are wondering whether it's better to commit to an Alex Smith type of upside in Jones, or swing for the fences with a Peyton/Luck level prospect in Lawrence.
I think it's important to contextualize the fact that a lot of what seems like impatience with Jones is also a byproduct of the possibility that the Giants may be in position to draft one of the top QB prospects to come out in a very long time. And committing to Jones, by definition, means that the team would be precluding themselves from the opportunity to add Lawrence.
The way I look at it is this - do you think, if the 49ers could redo the 2005 draft, that they'd still take Alex Smith instead of Aaron Rodgers? Smith was not a bust. He's been a successful NFL QB by almost any metric, especially measured against the bust rate for the position. But he's not Aaron Rodgers.
We can sit here and wait for Jones to become Alex Smith, and there won't be any shame in it if that's his ceiling. Or we can swing for the fences if a middle-in fastball gets grooved down the pipe.
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Anyone saying anything definitive on Jones is just following a knee-jerk reaction to losing.
Or they can optimistically see the best QB prospect in a decade hovering on the horizon and are wondering whether it's better to commit to an Alex Smith type of upside in Jones, or swing for the fences with a Peyton/Luck level prospect in Lawrence.
I think it's important to contextualize the fact that a lot of what seems like impatience with Jones is also a byproduct of the possibility that the Giants may be in position to draft one of the top QB prospects to come out in a very long time. And committing to Jones, by definition, means that the team would be precluding themselves from the opportunity to add Lawrence.
The way I look at it is this - do you think, if the 49ers could redo the 2005 draft, that they'd still take Alex Smith instead of Aaron Rodgers? Smith was not a bust. He's been a successful NFL QB by almost any metric, especially measured against the bust rate for the position. But he's not Aaron Rodgers.
We can sit here and wait for Jones to become Alex Smith, and there won't be any shame in it if that's his ceiling. Or we can swing for the fences if a middle-in fastball gets grooved down the pipe.
exactly.. either Jones takes a Brady-like jump or we're taking Lawrence if we have the top pick, and likely taking Fields or Lance of we're top-5.
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In comment 15008807 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 15008803 crick n NC said:
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The plan is to be a winning football team which will be met by building inside out.
That's still not a plan. It's a mission statement, at best.
You said above there have three plans in three years. What were those plans?
Glad you asked, and mind you, I'm not saying these are well-crafted plans (because they weren't) but here you go...
Plan #1 - "Go for one more run with Eli Manning." Regime change in the GM office. Hire an offensive-minded head coach. Sign offensive lineman to protect the QB, and draft a RB with the #2 overall pick to give him another weapon for his offense, while hoping the defense holds together.
Plan #2 - "Oh shit, plan #1 failed miserably". This was more of a scattershot reactionary plan to the unequivocal failure of plan #1. Trading or cutting "malcontent" players, drafting Eli's replacement but bringing him along slowly. More whack-a-mole roster construction.
Plan #2a - "Fuck it, let's play Jones now".
Plan #3 - "Do over." GM stays but coach and QB go. Draft focus on OL to protect their investment at QB. It's not entirely clear what the plans are going forward.
Point being, the Giants organization has no identity, and your plans are only as good as the people making them.
Lets not forget the reactionary signing of Golden Tate to assuage any potential outrage of trading OBJ... As if a slot receiver was going to replace an outside threat like OBJ...
But regarding what should have been the plan going into 2018...
They had just let go 4 out of the 5 starting OL, and the 5th was Flowers who was a failure at LT. THey were moving him to RT which should have been expected to fail, and a backup plan available.
Going into the 2018 draft, it was widely known that it was chock full of quality OL. THe deepest OL draft in at least a decade. The Giants had tons of draft capital having the #2 pick. The stars could not have aligned better. The "Plan" was writing itself. The Giants should have traded down, used their top of the draft resources on OL picks and built a solid OL that could stay together for a decade. A couple of days ago I posted all the OL players picked in just the top 3 rounds. There were I think 20, and all of them except for 2 are starters this year or were starting before being injured. And the only one we got is Hernandez who is performing in the bottom third of all those players.
They needed an RB, could have gotten one in the middle or late rounds, it turns out there have been a few good ones.
The next asinine decision was bringing in a DC that wanted to switch the Giants to a 3-4. The Giants were tooled as a 4-3, and had a defense 1 year removed from being one of the best in the league. There was no need to move away from the 4-3. The needed to fill in some better LBs, perhaps a corner to push Apple, and eventually replace JJ. They needed a FS. All of these needs could have been addressed through FA, or the mid to lower rounds of the draft. The following year, there were lots of top defensive talent at Edge, DL, and CB that could have been had to replace players like Vernon, JJ, and Harrison.
Instead they oicked a RB to run behind a putrid OL, went to the FA route to fix the OL, which I have preached over and over is no longer possible. The days of getting O'Haras and MacKenzies through FA have been over for a decade. Decided to completely tear down and rebuild a new defense. And the cherry on top of this ice cream sundae of a plan was to trade the ONLY halfway competent C on the team from an already hurting OL. Then they reach for a QB prematurely, and still largely ignore the OL (yes they traded for an aging G, and signed an aging RT, neither were long term solutions, and both had a high risk of failure). Absolutely NONE of this ever made any sense whatsoever.
Everything after the failures of 2018, has been reactionary to nuclear fallout from those disastrous decisions. If they didn't want to move on from Eli, the Giants didn't have to do that yet. They could have allowed him to be a caretaker (albeit an expensive one) at QB, until rebuilding the rest of the roster (or at least the OL) was nearly mature.
I always felt the the timing was right to go after a QB either in this year's draft or next year... Also this year had a number of very good WR...
Good scouting should have informed the plans in each of these years. They should always know the type of talent coming in the next 2 to 3 drafts and PLAN accordingly. That doesn't seem to happen. The Draft Plans should have focused on playing into the strengths of each year's crop of talent and attacking the high value positions (OL, Edge, CB, QB). Instead, the Giants thought they were smarter and played into the weaknesses of those drafts and grabbed players at positions of lesser relative value. The plan for FA should be to fill in those positions of lesser relative value, LB, S, DL, slot WR, RB. Good players at those position are still available in FA. Good players at high value positions are rarely available in FA, and the cost a king's ransom.
To me that's his upside right now. Never going to be a consistently elite QB, but if that's your idea of solving the QB issue you'll find yourself the laughing stock of the league with exQBs finding success elsewhere unless you get very lucky.
Shit Trevor Lawrence is as good a prospect at the position since Andrew Luck, but there is no gurantee he's going to be elite. I just happen to think his floor is very high. I thought Luck was a better prospect personally and that's because he played at Stanford. Hard to judge guys when the playing field is only close to even maybe 2 or 3 times a year. I notice people pointing out his NC game against Bama 2(?) years ago. forgetting Bama's defense was trash that year. Well trash by SEC standards.
Judge was hired to build a program here, I wouldn’t bail a year in.