I sense there is a faction of fans who think it’s more likely than not this management group, staff, and core group of players will turn it around.
Simple question — why?
Not a question of who knows, impatience, let’s see it play out, or we don’t have enough information. I’m genuinely curious as to what the early and leading indicators are that lead some to think things are going in the right direction.
I also have hope that the Giants understand to not listen to fans and buckle under pressure when results aren't coming quickly enough with Judge.
Simply put, Judge is my hope, and only on how he presents himself thus far.
That doesn't hold water. Carolina and Cleveland have new regimes and are doing well.
And if Saquon Barkley's best career year was his first; and if Andrew Thomas is the second-coming of Ereck Flowers; well, then, things will get even worse and events could over-take Joe Judge and whirlwind him right out the door.
Just in terms of in-the-field performance, the OL needs to become acceptable. That will be a sign that the Giants are fixing weaknesses.
The more general idea though is that, to start a rebuild, Mara will need to hand over the reigns to a strong, capable GM, someone who keeps the owners and the family in their box and makes courageous decisions instead of mealymouthed ones. That will be the real turning point.
And if Saquon Barkley's best career year was his first; and if Andrew Thomas is the second-coming of Ereck Flowers; well, then, things will get even worse and events could over-take Joe Judge and whirlwind him right out the door.
Agree with this. If chronic losers like Cle and Buffalo can become respectable, any team can. They drafted well (QBs especially) and hit on FA. Look at Buffalo's trio of WRs, now one of the best in the NFL. All acquired in FA or trade the last 2 years only. Teams can get better quickly. Unfortunately, I don't think the current GM and scouts are up to it.
I really like this point. I think this is a critical offseason to:
1) cement the defense as the identity of the team
2) define what the core of the defense will be going forward
I could buy if someone said to me: the reason I believe this will turn around is because the Giants are committed to having a young, and fearsome defense, and they are willing to invest cap and draft picks in it next offseason.
You mean like when they hired Rex Ryan first?
Too bad he's been unable to replicate his success to the Sabres. They're awful!
If Abrams, who has been a part of this disaster, is elevated to GM we'll know the methodology hasn't changed. We'll still be stuck rooting for a broken clock that hopefully is right a couple times a day.
a buddy of mine who isnt a Giant fan asked me if the Giants were grooming someone to be the next GM and I said if they fire Getts and elevate Abrams nothing will change. They need to think outside the box here
[quote] To say there is nothing on this team that could lead to them improving just isn't true. For instance, by next season the OL could be Thomas, Martinez, Gates, Lemieux and Peart. "
Unless these guys become very good lineman in the next 11 games with massive improvements- that would be a major downgrade. If that is the starting OLine next year we are in big trouble.
That’s complete nonsense. They have all of this year and OTAs and training camp and preseason next year to come together. Major downgrade? Based on what how good Zeitler and Fleming have been.
- I see a defense that for the most part is keeping us in games. You can say we need a safety but we haven't seen McKinney at all and we have played without Peppers. I know people are down on him but I think he can be coached up and have a role in this defense. So safety should improve. We are definitely missing a pass rusher. IF we had someone who teams feared and could beat tackles off the ball that will force QB's up in the pocket and you will see stat improvement from Williams and Lawrence. Our other hole is at corner but I would hope that Lewis continues to improve, Holmes makes the jump next year to outside or Beal actually plays. The key is pass rusher (and continued development out of our young guys).
- On offense, I think it is reasonable for both Thomas and Gates to improve with reps. I also think Peart will show better than Fleming. I expect to see him after break. I do think that by the end of the year, we will have a servicable line. I expect Barkely to come back healthy next year. I think like edge rusher on defense, a stud WR along with Barkley coming back healthy, is our biggest need and the thing that is holding them back. I'm not ready to move on from Engram yet. I think he could be a very good complimentary receiver if we had a zone stretcher. I haven't mentioned Jones. He's tough and throws a great ball. I give him another year.
I've broken down (high level) both O and D. I think we have good coaches which we haven't had in awhile. We haven't gotten much from this draft due to slow development/injuries but I think there is some talent that we need to give time to. Additionally, we aren't in bad cap situation and I think we can easily see improvement at WR/ER with free agency or the draft.
This all hinges on continued development from our younger players and I think we are at risk if we don't some wins shortly. I think the other biggest thing is that we need to sign our own free agents (Williams/Tomlinson) in addition to adding to our team.
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In comment 15008714 BillT said:
[quote] To say there is nothing on this team that could lead to them improving just isn't true. For instance, by next season the OL could be Thomas, Martinez, Gates, Lemieux and Peart. "
Unless these guys become very good lineman in the next 11 games with massive improvements- that would be a major downgrade. If that is the starting OLine next year we are in big trouble.
That’s complete nonsense. They have all of this year and OTAs and training camp and preseason next year to come together. Major downgrade? Based on what how good Zeitler and Fleming have been.
You mean the backups to Zeitler and Fleming? If they were better they would be playing and starting.
If you think inserting a 3rd and 5th round pick is going to solve the issues with this line, you are being overly optimistic. I hope Thomas turns out to be an all pro left tackle, but he has been really bad. And there is little evidence of Hernandez and Gates being good at this level.
So yes you will need to see a massive improvement before next season from all 5 positions to have even an above average O Line.
So really, 3 big FA signings and one of them, Solder is on the way out. 2 big trades and Ogletree is long gone.
We haven't exactly panicked in FA. Just saying.
LEt's just rebuild forever and basically employ 3 highly established and highly paid vets on the defense, and one of them is only on a one year deal anyway. And the other two aren't even super stars or paid as such in martinez and bradbury.
I feel like the lack of vet star power on this team doesn't get enough talk. The best player is still on his rookie deal and of course hurt. The best defensive player(s) was signed this past offseason. We need a lot more of those. A lot. UNtil then it will only get better slowly and it won't be enough.
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I don't know. At the start of the season, I looked at the schedule and circumstance and decided I was withholding judgement until the last 8 games. I would like to stand by that. If we don't show marked improvement in the second half ,specifically Daniel Jones and the OL, we are in real trouble. If you drill the OL down more, I need AT to not be a bust. He has to show quick enough feet to be a left tackle by the end of the year. If those 2 things are a negative at year's end I think we will be at least 3 years away from anything meaningful. It will mean that we missed on 2 very high picks. Barkley may never be the same again, that could be 3. Baker is already gone. You cannot fail at that many number 1 picks.
Grateful - I was going to point to something a bit broader than Thomas: a functional, at minimum average OL. It’s been 8 seasons now that the black hole of the OL had been sucking the team into losing. If we had a decent OL, literally everything failing with this club would be better. Instead, we have Awful Giants OL version 8.0.
Just in terms of in-the-field performance, the OL needs to become acceptable. That will be a sign that the Giants are fixing weaknesses.
The more general idea though is that, to start a rebuild, Mara will need to hand over the reigns to a strong, capable GM, someone who keeps the owners and the family in their box and makes courageous decisions instead of mealymouthed ones. That will be the real turning point.
I suspect he missed on DJ and AT. They are quality young men so I will wait until the end of the year. My big concern is DJ is repeating the same mistake, weekly. He has not given me much hope that he can correct his flaw. Can AT get faster feet? Not so sure. Those would be the final nails in DG coffin. I probably agree with you on all the other major decisions DG has made.
The Giants are in Bengals Browns territory at this point. They could be this bad for another decade if the people who own the team keep doing the same things over and over and expect different results.
We are saving money for something, I guess hoping some of the kids need and earn a big 2nd contract....cool.
Even if things brke right this season and everything came up roses, this team wasn't ready to win anything of note. When is that day coming? Maybe next year. Maybe the year after.
I personally thought Dexter Lawrence was going to be a beast, maybe comparable to H Ngata or something. He’s solid, sure, but we’ve also seen teams run the ball right down their throat, and haven’t seen him really do anything to stop It. Maybe it just takes some luck at some point? I mean 27 teams passed on Patrick Queen, and the dude now looks game changer .... you’d think the probabilities would even out ... maybe McKinney? Maybe we need an exorcism?
Put another way, if the Giants don’t make a major change (new GM, new coach, new QB, major roster turnover for example) — do you believe it’s just a matter of time and minor adjustments that will get this team into contention?
Put another way, if the Giants don’t make a major change (new GM, new coach, new QB, major roster turnover for example) — do you believe it’s just a matter of time and minor adjustments that will get this team into contention?
No, I don’t think it’s a natural progression. Think they need a few breaks in drafting, where the guys scouted to be good are actually good and stay healthy, and there is a smattering of guys who exceed expectations (Slayton would be one). Look at the Eagles. They used a premium pick on Lane Johnson, and the guy is a 12 year cornerstone type. They pick Jason Kelce in the 5th, and he becomes a multi year pro bowler. Sounds like a cop out to say luck is needed, but it kind of is. If everyone knew Aaron Donald would be a hall of fame type, 10 teams wouldn’t have passed on him. Looking at this roster, man, we could use a little dumb luck with say Lemieux and Peart — if they morph into something solid, then I could see things changing.
And then they finished the year 5-4 including beating the Pats in week 17 in a close game that actually meant something.
It obviously wasn't all sunshine and roses, even in this past offseason where they fired their OC and lost Graham to us. But apparently Flores is the real deal because he's clearly gotten them out of the depths of embarrassment. A couple days ago they pounded a healthier 49er team than the one that demolished us and after they take their shot at the final nail in Adam Gase's coffin this weekend they will likely be heading into their bye week at .500.
Their situation may not be predictive for ours but it is example 1,304,502 of how things can change quickly in the NFL. And the fact that Flores had the same pedigree as Judge, right down to hiring Graham as their DCs, certainly does provide a basis for comparison of a hopeful trajectory for our current leader.
And then they finished the year 5-4 including beating the Pats in week 17 in a close game that actually meant something.
It obviously wasn't all sunshine and roses, even in this past offseason where they fired their OC and lost Graham to us. But apparently Flores is the real deal because he's clearly gotten them out of the depths of embarrassment. A couple days ago they pounded a healthier 49er team than the one that demolished us and after they take their shot at the final nail in Adam Gase's coffin this weekend they will likely be heading into their bye week at .500.
Their situation may not be predictive for ours but it is example 1,304,502 of how things can change quickly in the NFL. And the fact that Flores had the same pedigree as Judge, right down to hiring Graham as their DCs, certainly does provide a basis for comparison of a hopeful trajectory for our current leader.
Typically spot on.
I'd argue the single most concerning issue for this team is the slow rate of adding high quality young and young-veteran players in the last 3 years.
Generously, by year, these are the players I think are starters on a future (say 2022) playoff-type team added so far:
- 2018 | Barkley, Hernandez, Gates
- 2019 | Jones, Slayton, Lawrence, Williams
- 2020 | Bradberry, Martinez, Thomas, McKinney, Holmes
I look at the vets acquired -- Tate, Zetlier, Ryan, Fleming, Golden, Frackrell, Lewis, Downs, Ebner, Toilolo -- I think all those guys are gone before the Giants are a playoff team.
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No, I don’t think it’s a natural progression. Think they need a few breaks in drafting, where the guys scouted to be good are actually good and stay healthy, and there is a smattering of guys who exceed expectations (Slayton would be one). Look at the Eagles. They used a premium pick on Lane Johnson, and the guy is a 12 year cornerstone type. They pick Jason Kelce in the 5th, and he becomes a multi year pro bowler. Sounds like a cop out to say luck is needed, but it kind of is. If everyone knew Aaron Donald would be a hall of fame type, 10 teams wouldn’t have passed on him. Looking at this roster, man, we could use a little dumb luck with say Lemieux and Peart — if they morph into something solid, then I could see things changing.
I'd argue the single most concerning issue for this team is the slow rate of adding high quality young and young-veteran players in the last 3 years.
Generously, by year, these are the players I think are starters on a future (say 2022) playoff-type team added so far:
- 2018 | Barkley, Hernandez, Gates
- 2019 | Jones, Slayton, Lawrence, Williams
- 2020 | Bradberry, Martinez, Thomas, McKinney, Holmes
I look at the vets acquired -- Tate, Zetlier, Ryan, Fleming, Golden, Frackrell, Lewis, Downs, Ebner, Toilolo -- I think all those guys are gone before the Giants are a playoff team.
Yup. Giants need Andrew Thomas to be solid at worst, and some other guys other than Slayton to emerge. I always think about how the Seahawks were built ... in 2011, they got Kam Chancellor in the 5th, and in 2012 they got Russell Wilson in the 3rd and Richard Sherman in the 5th ... and away they go. Part of it is coaching, and part of it is, in my opinion, draft and health luck. (The Patriots are the outlier in this of course, where it’s mostly coaching, and BB could win games with replacement level players).
Unlike most, I view this team's personnel as at least an 8-8 group going forward.
And I still view Judge's coaching staff as winners.
This is a starting coaching staff's blip, and its a huge but common, eadily made mistake to lump it together with the 3 previous years. Its NOT part of that group of loses for several reasons, starting with the currently awful OL who have youth and a lot of upside...
If the Giants get a no. 2 WR in the 5th round, a starting center as an UDFA, a slot corner in the 4th round, and their blocking TE on waivers -- that's pretty good luck.
Second, this OL has stayed healthy and with reps they will improve. Especially Gates and Thomas....
Third, given points one and two we should see Jones play better.
On defense, the young secondary should show improvement as well.
We lack top end talent so I'd be stunned if we won more than say 4 to 5 games.
I think this post pretty much sums it up.
I'm pretty convinced Jones's talent is far in excess of Dave Brown so to me the question is more if he's Marcus Mariota/Ryan Tannehill (toolsy guys who were starters that just never progressed in their first 5 years) or Josh Allen/Dak Prescott (who took steady steps forward).
His rookie year was competitive with any of the 4 and arguably better but this year he's obviously regressed. I don't think it's an understatement to say that the success of the rest of this year almost entirely lies on whether or not Garrett can get Jones progressing back to, and ideally beyond, what he was last year. Last week was better but he has not looked comfortable in Garrett's system yet.
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But I think the fans that believe this can be turned around are optimistic about Jones, Barkley, and the young OL. They’re also higher on some players on the defensive side. I don’t agree, but the crux of their position is that the Giants got screwed having a new regime in a COVID shortened off-season.
That doesn't hold water. Carolina and Cleveland have new regimes and are doing well.
Like I said, I don’t agree but that’s their position whether they say so or not. “Just need time to gel.”
I also have hope that the Giants understand to not listen to fans and buckle under pressure when results aren't coming quickly enough with Judge.
Simply put, Judge is my hope, and only on how he presents himself thus far.
I am just reading this now.
I said almost the exact same thing about Judge on a different thread. We don't have information yet to evaluate him, except that he has handled himself well in public That has given some a reason to hope. There is no correlation between good public personas and good HCs. There have been plenty of HC with good personas that sucked, and some that had bad personas that are HOFers. I don't know if or how his persona will translate to being a HC.
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In comment 15008726 TyreeHelmet said:
BillT said:
[quote]
If you think inserting a 3rd and 5th round pick is going to solve the issues with this line, you are being overly optimistic. I hope Thomas turns out to be an all pro left tackle, but he has been really bad. And there is little evidence of Hernandez and Gates being good at this level.
So yes you will need to see a massive improvement before next season from all 5 positions to have even an above average O Line.
Lemieux and Peart and Thomas are rookies. Gates is playing his first year at C. Peart is already getting reps at RT and Lemieux is getting om the field as well. I didn't say they were defiantly going to be better (if you read all of my post) but improving in your second year isn't something out of the ordinary. Neither is recovering from an ACL.
I don’t think Shurmur was a long term solution as the head coach on any planet, but the job he did with Jones last year was criminally underrated and obscured by his bad head coaching.
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His rookie year was competitive with any of the 4 and arguably better but this year he's obviously regressed. I don't think it's an understatement to say that the success of the rest of this year almost entirely lies on whether or not Garrett can get Jones progressing back to, and ideally beyond, what he was last year. Last week was better but he has not looked comfortable in Garrett's system yet.
I don’t think Shurmur was a long term solution as the head coach on any planet, but the job he did with Jones last year was criminally underrated and obscured by his bad head coaching.
Completely agree. He also got good years out of Eli, OBJ, and Barkley right away despite the OL.
Not to go down a rabbit hole, but the technical skills Shurmur had coaching QB's made sense for a team about to enter a QB transition. Unfortunately he just has none of the skills necessary to be an effective head coach. If he'd simply been able to hire a defensive coordinator as good as Graham apparently is he'd probably still be here. Even with the ridiculous decisions on challenges, misuse of timeouts, etc.
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His rookie year was competitive with any of the 4 and arguably better but this year he's obviously regressed. I don't think it's an understatement to say that the success of the rest of this year almost entirely lies on whether or not Garrett can get Jones progressing back to, and ideally beyond, what he was last year. Last week was better but he has not looked comfortable in Garrett's system yet.
I don’t think Shurmur was a long term solution as the head coach on any planet, but the job he did with Jones last year was criminally underrated and obscured by his bad head coaching.
This certainly seems to be true...
The flip side of this is, does that mean that getting anything out of Jones requires a special QB guru coaching him? If so, what does that say about Jones and his future?
Right now, they're lacking talent and they need to reinforce the confidence with some success to rally the troops for 2020. What we don't want to see is things fall apart, players checking out, and making 2020 a waste of a development and evaluation year.
I would agree with what seems to be the take of McL and Terps. While we don’t have enough to go on to suggest Judge is the right guy for it, I’d trust his influence in moving forward over anyone in the building.
I do think as fans it’s fair to want something better than that and to the extent we can let the team know that.
This is one of those things that seems to get repeated based off McAdoo's performance in 2017 with his slicked back hair and hotshot attitude.
Let's not forget that in 2016, McAdoo coached the Giants to 11 wins, most of which were close games. He managed game situations very well that year and played a pivotal role in the team's record that year (not the only role, but an important one). Meanwhile, Judge hasn't won a game yet. I don't think that's entirely his fault either - I don't think Halas or Walsh or Landry or Belichick would win with this POS roster that DG built - but can we pump the brakes on Judge managing games better than McAdoo? At least until we see Judge actually manage them to his first career victory?
NGD: you really think Judge & Garrett are a package deal? That really is assuming the worst. I doubt that is true, but if it were, Judge should resign today.
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I feel that we have our HC, definitively. He's light years better than Shurmur and already managing games better than McAdoo ever did.
This is one of those things that seems to get repeated based off McAdoo's performance in 2017 with his slicked back hair and hotshot attitude.
Let's not forget that in 2016, McAdoo coached the Giants to 11 wins, most of which were close games. He managed game situations very well that year and played a pivotal role in the team's record that year (not the only role, but an important one). Meanwhile, Judge hasn't won a game yet. I don't think that's entirely his fault either - I don't think Halas or Walsh or Landry or Belichick would win with this POS roster that DG built - but can we pump the brakes on Judge managing games better than McAdoo? At least until we see Judge actually manage them to his first career victory?
Ah, 2016, the year Steve Spagnuolo's defense carried the team to 11 wins.
They need to focus on drafting top talent in high value positions.
Use FA judiciously to fill in lower value positions and create depth.
People who believe that the Giants are ascending say that there is talent on the team. The problem is, the places where the Giants have talent are at low value positions. I am convinced that there is something rotten in the scouting department. Some of it may be Mara meddling, but I suspect they need to clean house there. Too many of these guys have been there for 20-30 years.
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I feel that we have our HC, definitively. He's light years better than Shurmur and already managing games better than McAdoo ever did.
This is one of those things that seems to get repeated based off McAdoo's performance in 2017 with his slicked back hair and hotshot attitude.
Let's not forget that in 2016, McAdoo coached the Giants to 11 wins, most of which were close games. He managed game situations very well that year and played a pivotal role in the team's record that year (not the only role, but an important one). Meanwhile, Judge hasn't won a game yet. I don't think that's entirely his fault either - I don't think Halas or Walsh or Landry or Belichick would win with this POS roster that DG built - but can we pump the brakes on Judge managing games better than McAdoo? At least until we see Judge actually manage them to his first career victory?
McAdoo had a fresh crop of FA talent that played well before getting injured the next year. Then it was right back to shit. He also got Beckham’s last great year.
Judge is managing games well, that’s a fact. He’s also gotten a lot out of a defense without a star player or any pass rusher at all. You can think what you want on it but this is a discussion about today, so that’s what I’m commenting on. If by seasons end Judge starts fucking up then I’ll call that out too.
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In comment 15008683 UConn4523 said:
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I feel that we have our HC, definitively. He's light years better than Shurmur and already managing games better than McAdoo ever did.
This is one of those things that seems to get repeated based off McAdoo's performance in 2017 with his slicked back hair and hotshot attitude.
Let's not forget that in 2016, McAdoo coached the Giants to 11 wins, most of which were close games. He managed game situations very well that year and played a pivotal role in the team's record that year (not the only role, but an important one). Meanwhile, Judge hasn't won a game yet. I don't think that's entirely his fault either - I don't think Halas or Walsh or Landry or Belichick would win with this POS roster that DG built - but can we pump the brakes on Judge managing games better than McAdoo? At least until we see Judge actually manage them to his first career victory?
Ah, 2016, the year Steve Spagnuolo's defense carried the team to 11 wins.
That's about as solid an argument as claiming that Josh McDaniels' offense carried the Patriots to 17 wins in 2007. To completely discredit the head coach is willfully obtuse.
Spaguolo was still DC in 2017, wasn't he? With largely the same roster on that side of the ball, he oversaw one of the worst defenses in NFL history. If he was the sole reason for the wins in 2016, he sure forgot what worked a year later.
Jones is not there yet but he has very little to work with now. Star RB is gone for the year. He has no receivers to throw to except Slayton and the line flat out sucks.
The defense is still “finding itself”. Too many injuries to make any real progress though (Carter, Ximines, McKinney, Peppers, etc.). And we still don’t know who the #2 corner is if they even have one.
They’re moving guys from the PS onto the roster constantly meaning they are loading up the roster with free agents. When CJ Board and now Austin Mack are your #3 and 4 receivers you know the talent level is poor. This is a roster too full of average players.
So, no, it won’t get any better this year and maybe not even next year. This team still has a long way to go.
Of course there's like 10 other major components to being a good coach and McAdoo was terrible at all of them. I honestly can't come up with a positive for the guy outside of his game management skills.