Are Things Going to Get Better?

but not for a couple of years. I think you need to give Judge 4 years and get him a GM that will build the roster rather than break it down like Getts has done.

This is the worst roster the Giants have had since the mid 90s

unfortunately many people have tried to answer this question, but people don't want to hear it. It's a useless exercise. I'm not trying to say that your intentions are bad or the post isn't a good one...but it's useless. The very second that someone answers the question, the wolves will come out and the thread is ambushed.

I don't have a timeline on that, but being bad in perpetuity doesn't make sense. Even the Browns are winning games.

Its a really rough patch, there will be brighter days ahead.

Are things going to get better? I would think so, they can’t get much worse.

is the fact that as a franchise, they have become accustom to losing.

Breaking that culture and that mind set takes a long time.

Even as a fan, I was watching that game Sunday knowing that they would find a way to lose - I can't imagine it feels any different in that locker room.

is very young and there are still some holes to fill. WR, DE with pass rushing skills and at least one CB and Safety and an offensive End that is a threat and can block. Will some of these holes develope within our present roster? Maybe a corner and/or safety will I don't see it at the other positions though.
Of course this is an opinion that doesn't mean much. But I do believe We have the right head coach to do it.

We will be playing meaningful games by Halloween.

The weaknesses have to get addressed - still no pass rusher. They targeted the secondary but we lost 3 starters before the season.

OLine a work in progress - really needed the preseason.

We're not scared to lose it all security throw through the wall

Future dreams we have to realize

A thousand skeptic hands won't keep us from the things we plan

Unless we're clinging to the things we prize

And do you feel scared, I do

But I won't stop and falter

And if we threw it all away....

I feel that we have our HC, definitively. He's light years better than Shurmur and already managing games better than McAdoo ever did.

We either have our QB of the future or a top pick if we don't. So taking Lawrence, Fields, etc will be a legitimate possibility.

Defense. We have a legitimate foundation on defense. This defense would be top 10 with a premier (or even very good) pass rusher, IMO. It needs more depth but that's something i'm confident we can add. This is where Judge will excel (and already has since we've been performing above our talent level).

So yeah, there's things to look forward to IMO.

In comment 15008674 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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We will be playing meaningful games by Halloween.

So fucking sad.

Can’t get no worse

In comment 15008677 bc4life said:

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The weaknesses have to get addressed - still no pass rusher. They targeted the secondary but we lost 3 starters before the season. OLine a work in progress - really needed the preseason.

Preseason or maybe some good quality offensive linemen. I personally think practice is highly overrated in the current NFL.

Unless the key young players make tremendous strides the rest of this season, the new GM will need at least 2 offseasons to get things on the right track. They are massive holes all over the roster that aren't easy to fill.

of high draft picks, i dont want Gettleman involved

but for me, there are a couple of positions that are just SCREAMING for an upgrade.....one was the corner opposite Bradberry. Losing the projected top 2 at that slot really really hurt this team. Teams have attacked that side all year. Lewis hasnt been too bad the past two weeks, and you can see what a difference even a minor upgrade can make.

The other one, and for me the biggest hole, is the #1 WR position. We have a 2, and when Shepherd returns that should help, but running CJ Board Damien Ratley, and whoever else.....I mean, the position may as well not even be filled. The opposing defense can damn near ignore 1/2 the field because these guys couldnt get open if Herman Munster was running downfield with them. This is a tremendous hole, and one that I was screaming for the Giants to fill in this most recent draft, a position of course which they ignored completely. And that decision has really cost them.

I really believe with legit starting NFL calibre players at those two positions, and with even average play from the oline, I think things may start to turn around.

i cant believe we went through all those draft picks without getting one

I wouldn't say my confidence interval is at 100% on either of them but in a binary yes or no, yes I do believe in both of them (> 50%) so I think things will get better. There are tangible things they've each "put on tape" that are encouraging. The defense is night and day better. Clock management/game management too. Jones' performance last year and consistently good ball placement and ability to evade sacks.

Also aside from the tangible, in terms of personality there's not much to dislike about either of them (which is not nothing, just ask Adam Gase or Dwayne Haskins).

So yes, I think things will get better and will likely continue to be bullish on that prospect until Judge and/or Jones individually regress to a greater extent than we've seen so far. Jones regression YoY (and the entire offense under Garrett) is troubling however. That's the area where there needs to be significant tangible progress over the rest of the season.

The only DB worth a damn is Bradberry. They just have been lucky enough to have not faced a top passing offense until Dallas, and Dak's ankle exploded early in the second half.

I’d like to see a GM with some NE ties brought in to work with him.

going to get better with the current construct in the front office and the product they are putting on the field. Judge may or may not be a good coach, but under this environment he doesn’t have much of a chance.

In fact, the only thing I can point to that it will get better if the construct doesn’t change, is luck.

Getting Better
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 15008705 Greg from LI said:

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The only DB worth a damn is Bradberry. They just have been lucky enough to have not faced a top passing offense until Dallas, and Dak's ankle exploded early in the second half.

I don't agree. Having zero threat to get to the QB doesn't make just passing easier, it makes running easier too because we can't really load up - we have to account for the pass at all times.

To say there is nothing on this team that could lead to them improving just isn't true. For instance, by next season the OL could be Thomas, Martinez, Gates, Lemieux and Peart. And that could be a viable group with a recovered Barkley and a QB with both a running game and time to throw. That would be a big improvement. There are other parts of the team have similar upsides.

On the other hand none of that could work out. And to be fair even if it does work out it seems like were a year behind where we should be. It's frustrating.

In comment 15008705 Greg from LI said:

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The only DB worth a damn is Bradberry. They just have been lucky enough to have not faced a top passing offense until Dallas, and Dak's ankle exploded early in the second half.

I disagree. A rusher on the outside that needs a double team would change a lot. We need an alpha.

consistently. With all of the early talk about how this staff is made up of teachers, are they able to reach the players? Two of the key players on offense are Thomas and Jones and they are not showing any improvement in their techniques such as Jones' ability to hold onto the ball and keying on receivers and Thomas' lack of improvements is glaring. I believe the team has some talent but not enough to make up for the same mistakes over and over again.
I also see the team is demoralized and that too gets in the way of improvement

In comment 15008714 BillT said:
[quote] To say there is nothing on this team that could lead to them improving just isn't true. For instance, by next season the OL could be Thomas, Martinez, Gates, Lemieux and Peart. "

Unless these guys become very good lineman in the next 11 games with massive improvements- that would be a major downgrade. If that is the starting OLine next year we are in big trouble.

In terms of wins, things will get better eventually only because they can't really get worse. The question is when will the Giants be able to move past the occasional fortunate 10-6 season to something more sustainable.

If Abrams, who has been a part of this disaster, is elevated to GM we'll know the methodology hasn't changed. We'll still be stuck rooting for a broken clock that hopefully is right a couple times a day.

But it's clear that this team needs a GM that isn't stuck in the 90's. I don't mind the general philosophy of team building by Gettleman. He put an emphasis on building the lines, which I agree with. The problem is, his decisions in doing that have been questionable in some cases. Further, he has made some clearly bad decisions, trading a 2nd rounder, a 4th rounder, and a 5th rounder to move up for DeAndre Baker chief among them. The Leonard Williams trade, sans an extension in place, was also a poor decision.

Every GM misses, but this GM misses opportunities by being too closed-minded in trade downs in the draft, and wasting resources in other areas.

I like Judge, though. I think the team is objectively playing very hard for him, and I think he has the passion, creativity, and leadership skills to get the most out of his players. That said, he has to have winning players. No coach can make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

If the team is going to improve, Daniel Jones needs to start making leaps, and the OL needs to gel and they have to hit on Peart and Thomas, at minimum. I still have hope for Thomas, but obviously, the draft day shine is almost completely off.

If however, the OL does come together, I don't think the Giants are that far away. With a legit playmaker outside and an explosive pass-rusher, they have enough in house, if the players mentioned above do their part, to compete for the division.

All that said, there is nothing on this team that gives me more hope than the prospects of drafting Trevor Lawrence, one of the elite QB prospects of the last 30 years.

I don't know. At the start of the season, I looked at the schedule and circumstance and decided I was withholding judgement until the last 8 games. I would like to stand by that. If we don't show marked improvement in the second half ,specifically Daniel Jones and the OL, we are in real trouble. If you drill the OL down more, I need AT to not be a bust. He has to show quick enough feet to be a left tackle by the end of the year. If those 2 things are a negative at year's end I think we will be at least 3 years away from anything meaningful. It will mean that we missed on 2 very high picks. Barkley may never be the same again, that could be 3. Baker is already gone. You cannot fail at that many number 1 picks.

Unless....we suck so bad, we end up with Lawrence. I think Lawrence could have a Russell Wilson or Patrick Mahomes kind of boost. We need a big shot in the arm. We need a perennial All Pro to come from the draft at an impact position. I am sorry, but that is not a RB in today's NFL. We should all be able to agree on that now.

But I think the fans that believe this can be turned around are optimistic about Jones, Barkley, and the young OL. They’re also higher on some players on the defensive side. I don’t agree, but the crux of their position is that the Giants got screwed having a new regime in a COVID shortened off-season.

My hope is basically pinned on how Judge speaks because there just isn't enough for me to know what he'll become. Fact is, he has never been a HC at any level that I am aware of and that is significant.

I also have hope that the Giants understand to not listen to fans and buckle under pressure when results aren't coming quickly enough with Judge.

Simply put, Judge is my hope, and only on how he presents himself thus far.

In comment 15008741 WillVAB said:

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But I think the fans that believe this can be turned around are optimistic about Jones, Barkley, and the young OL. They’re also higher on some players on the defensive side. I don’t agree, but the crux of their position is that the Giants got screwed having a new regime in a COVID shortened off-season.

That doesn't hold water. Carolina and Cleveland have new regimes and are doing well.

And if Saquon Barkley's best career year was his first; and if Andrew Thomas is the second-coming of Ereck Flowers; well, then, things will get even worse and events could over-take Joe Judge and whirlwind him right out the door.

In comment 15008740 Thegratefulhead said:

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I don't know. At the start of the season, I looked at the schedule and circumstance and decided I was withholding judgement until the last 8 games. I would like to stand by that. If we don't show marked improvement in the second half ,specifically Daniel Jones and the OL, we are in real trouble. If you drill the OL down more, I need AT to not be a bust. He has to show quick enough feet to be a left tackle by the end of the year. If those 2 things are a negative at year's end I think we will be at least 3 years away from anything meaningful. It will mean that we missed on 2 very high picks. Barkley may never be the same again, that could be 3. Baker is already gone. You cannot fail at that many number 1 picks.

Grateful - I was going to point to something a bit broader than Thomas: a functional, at minimum average OL. It’s been 8 seasons now that the black hole of the OL had been sucking the team into losing. If we had a decent OL, literally everything failing with this club would be better. Instead, we have Awful Giants OL version 8.0.

Just in terms of in-the-field performance, the OL needs to become acceptable. That will be a sign that the Giants are fixing weaknesses.

The more general idea though is that, to start a rebuild, Mara will need to hand over the reigns to a strong, capable GM, someone who keeps the owners and the family in their box and makes courageous decisions instead of mealymouthed ones. That will be the real turning point.

In comment 15008752 M.S. said:

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And if Saquon Barkley's best career year was his first; and if Andrew Thomas is the second-coming of Ereck Flowers; well, then, things will get even worse and events could over-take Joe Judge and whirlwind him right out the door.

Agree with this. If chronic losers like Cle and Buffalo can become respectable, any team can. They drafted well (QBs especially) and hit on FA. Look at Buffalo's trio of WRs, now one of the best in the NFL. All acquired in FA or trade the last 2 years only. Teams can get better quickly. Unfortunately, I don't think the current GM and scouts are up to it.

In comment 15008683 UConn4523 said:

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Defense. We have a legitimate foundation on defense. This defense would be top 10 with a premier (or even very good) pass rusher, IMO. It needs more depth but that's something i'm confident we can add. This is where Judge will excel (and already has since we've been performing above our talent level).

I really like this point. I think this is a critical offseason to:

1) cement the defense as the identity of the team
2) define what the core of the defense will be going forward

I could buy if someone said to me: the reason I believe this will turn around is because the Giants are committed to having a young, and fearsome defense, and they are willing to invest cap and draft picks in it next offseason.

A guy who comes from a blue collar background and worked his way up to be a very rich man. There is no comparison between a guy like that and a fool like John Mara. The owner, Pegula, has in turn put in place a very capable front office and excellent coaches. In fact, I wanted the Giants to hire their OC during the last head coach search. We have no business sneering at that team.

In comment 15008770 cosmicj said:

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A guy who comes from a blue collar background and worked his way up to be a very rich man. There is no comparison between a guy like that and a fool like John Mara. The owner, Pegula, has in turn put in place a very capable front office and excellent coaches. In fact, I wanted the Giants to hire their OC during the last head coach search. We have no business sneering at that team.

You mean like when they hired Rex Ryan first?

In comment 15008770 cosmicj said:

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A guy who comes from a blue collar background and worked his way up to be a very rich man. There is no comparison between a guy like that and a fool like John Mara. The owner, Pegula, has in turn put in place a very capable front office and excellent coaches. In fact, I wanted the Giants to hire their OC during the last head coach search. We have no business sneering at that team.

Too bad he's been unable to replicate his success to the Sabres. They're awful!

In comment 15008733 Go Terps said:

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In terms of wins, things will get better eventually only because they can't really get worse. The question is when will the Giants be able to move past the occasional fortunate 10-6 season to something more sustainable. If Abrams, who has been a part of this disaster, is elevated to GM we'll know the methodology hasn't changed. We'll still be stuck rooting for a broken clock that hopefully is right a couple times a day.

a buddy of mine who isnt a Giant fan asked me if the Giants were grooming someone to be the next GM and I said if they fire Getts and elevate Abrams nothing will change. They need to think outside the box here

In comment 15008726 TyreeHelmet said:

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In comment 15008714 BillT said: [quote] To say there is nothing on this team that could lead to them improving just isn't true. For instance, by next season the OL could be Thomas, Martinez, Gates, Lemieux and Peart. " Unless these guys become very good lineman in the next 11 games with massive improvements- that would be a major downgrade. If that is the starting OLine next year we are in big trouble.

That’s complete nonsense. They have all of this year and OTAs and training camp and preseason next year to come together. Major downgrade? Based on what how good Zeitler and Fleming have been.

as I think things can get better and they can get there fairly quickly. I think one thing that people need to keep in mind (there was another post on this) is what Eric said to start the year. We have a new coach so this is basically a total rebuild. You can't say we are in year 3 or year 8. This is year 1. That said...

- I see a defense that for the most part is keeping us in games. You can say we need a safety but we haven't seen McKinney at all and we have played without Peppers. I know people are down on him but I think he can be coached up and have a role in this defense. So safety should improve. We are definitely missing a pass rusher. IF we had someone who teams feared and could beat tackles off the ball that will force QB's up in the pocket and you will see stat improvement from Williams and Lawrence. Our other hole is at corner but I would hope that Lewis continues to improve, Holmes makes the jump next year to outside or Beal actually plays. The key is pass rusher (and continued development out of our young guys).

- On offense, I think it is reasonable for both Thomas and Gates to improve with reps. I also think Peart will show better than Fleming. I expect to see him after break. I do think that by the end of the year, we will have a servicable line. I expect Barkely to come back healthy next year. I think like edge rusher on defense, a stud WR along with Barkley coming back healthy, is our biggest need and the thing that is holding them back. I'm not ready to move on from Engram yet. I think he could be a very good complimentary receiver if we had a zone stretcher. I haven't mentioned Jones. He's tough and throws a great ball. I give him another year.

I've broken down (high level) both O and D. I think we have good coaches which we haven't had in awhile. We haven't gotten much from this draft due to slow development/injuries but I think there is some talent that we need to give time to. Additionally, we aren't in bad cap situation and I think we can easily see improvement at WR/ER with free agency or the draft.

This all hinges on continued development from our younger players and I think we are at risk if we don't some wins shortly. I think the other biggest thing is that we need to sign our own free agents (Williams/Tomlinson) in addition to adding to our team.

In comment 15008785 BillT said:

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In comment 15008726 TyreeHelmet said: Quote: In comment 15008714 BillT said: [quote] To say there is nothing on this team that could lead to them improving just isn't true. For instance, by next season the OL could be Thomas, Martinez, Gates, Lemieux and Peart. " Unless these guys become very good lineman in the next 11 games with massive improvements- that would be a major downgrade. If that is the starting OLine next year we are in big trouble. That’s complete nonsense. They have all of this year and OTAs and training camp and preseason next year to come together. Major downgrade? Based on what how good Zeitler and Fleming have been.

You mean the backups to Zeitler and Fleming? If they were better they would be playing and starting.

If you think inserting a 3rd and 5th round pick is going to solve the issues with this line, you are being overly optimistic. I hope Thomas turns out to be an all pro left tackle, but he has been really bad. And there is little evidence of Hernandez and Gates being good at this level.

So yes you will need to see a massive improvement before next season from all 5 positions to have even an above average O Line.

the Giants are taking a very slow and deliberate approach to this rebuild. other than 2 big FA signings of Bradbury, and Martinez the Giants haven't exactly gone all in on vet FA talent lately. OK they TRADED for Zietler but that was a salary swap. 2018 is long gone and even then, they only really brought in 2 big guys in Solder and the trade for Ogletree. Both have washed out. I can't count guys like Tate or some of the fodder that was brought in before 2018 season. And 2019 saw very little FA activity other than the tate signing.

So really, 3 big FA signings and one of them, Solder is on the way out. 2 big trades and Ogletree is long gone.

We haven't exactly panicked in FA. Just saying.

LEt's just rebuild forever and basically employ 3 highly established and highly paid vets on the defense, and one of them is only on a one year deal anyway. And the other two aren't even super stars or paid as such in martinez and bradbury.

I feel like the lack of vet star power on this team doesn't get enough talk. The best player is still on his rookie deal and of course hurt. The best defensive player(s) was signed this past offseason. We need a lot more of those. A lot. UNtil then it will only get better slowly and it won't be enough.

In comment 15008760 cosmicj said:

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In comment 15008740 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: I don't know. At the start of the season, I looked at the schedule and circumstance and decided I was withholding judgement until the last 8 games. I would like to stand by that. If we don't show marked improvement in the second half ,specifically Daniel Jones and the OL, we are in real trouble. If you drill the OL down more, I need AT to not be a bust. He has to show quick enough feet to be a left tackle by the end of the year. If those 2 things are a negative at year's end I think we will be at least 3 years away from anything meaningful. It will mean that we missed on 2 very high picks. Barkley may never be the same again, that could be 3. Baker is already gone. You cannot fail at that many number 1 picks. Grateful - I was going to point to something a bit broader than Thomas: a functional, at minimum average OL. It’s been 8 seasons now that the black hole of the OL had been sucking the team into losing. If we had a decent OL, literally everything failing with this club would be better. Instead, we have Awful Giants OL version 8.0. Just in terms of in-the-field performance, the OL needs to become acceptable. That will be a sign that the Giants are fixing weaknesses. The more general idea though is that, to start a rebuild, Mara will need to hand over the reigns to a strong, capable GM, someone who keeps the owners and the family in their box and makes courageous decisions instead of mealymouthed ones. That will be the real turning point.

I likely agree with that. I am waiting until the end of the year to make a full accounting on DG. If in the second half of the year the OL looks good and DJ looks like franchise QB DG wont look so bad. I also think a GM deserves at minimum 3 years.

I suspect he missed on DJ and AT. They are quality young men so I will wait until the end of the year. My big concern is DJ is repeating the same mistake, weekly. He has not given me much hope that he can correct his flaw. Can AT get faster feet? Not so sure. Those would be the final nails in DG coffin. I probably agree with you on all the other major decisions DG has made.

If it means making the playoffs and winning at least one game I think the Giants are at least 2 years away best case scenario. Worst case things just stay like this.

The Giants are in Bengals Browns territory at this point. They could be this bad for another decade if the people who own the team keep doing the same things over and over and expect different results.

it probably is as I doubt the ceiling here would be high enough even if we had 2-3-4 more good vet players on this team, but at some point, the Giants need to get bold and take some risks. We needed to rebuild no doubt, and we need to develop some young cost controlled talent, but we also need players. People tend to forget how highly paid those giants teams were from 05-2011. You had highly paid at every position back then, relative to the cap. By 2009 or so you had 2-3 highly paid DLs and guys like Bernard weren't cheap. You had 2-3 DBs making a lot of money too. Not even counting the LBs who were likely more on the lower end of the scale, you still had at least 6-7 NFL Vets making good long term money. And on offense? Same deal. You had the QB and probably all 5 OL making top money.

We are saving money for something, I guess hoping some of the kids need and earn a big 2nd contract....cool.

Even if things brke right this season and everything came up roses, this team wasn't ready to win anything of note. When is that day coming? Maybe next year. Maybe the year after.

Not until we get rid of Gettleman first.

... where year after year every their draft pick is either not the guy or gets hurt. You’d think at some point with all of these picks, they’d luck into a Doncic or Donovan Mitchell, but they keep getting flawed RJ Barretts or French Franks, who have some strange glaring weakness.

I personally thought Dexter Lawrence was going to be a beast, maybe comparable to H Ngata or something. He’s solid, sure, but we’ve also seen teams run the ball right down their throat, and haven’t seen him really do anything to stop It. Maybe it just takes some luck at some point? I mean 27 teams passed on Patrick Queen, and the dude now looks game changer .... you’d think the probabilities would even out ... maybe McKinney? Maybe we need an exorcism?