I sense there is a faction of fans who think it’s more likely than not this management group, staff, and core group of players will turn it around.
Simple question — why?
Not a question of who knows, impatience, let’s see it play out, or we don’t have enough information. I’m genuinely curious as to what the early and leading indicators are that lead some to think things are going in the right direction.
Put another way, if the Giants don’t make a major change (new GM, new coach, new QB, major roster turnover for example) — do you believe it’s just a matter of time and minor adjustments that will get this team into contention?
Put another way, if the Giants don’t make a major change (new GM, new coach, new QB, major roster turnover for example) — do you believe it’s just a matter of time and minor adjustments that will get this team into contention?
No, I don’t think it’s a natural progression. Think they need a few breaks in drafting, where the guys scouted to be good are actually good and stay healthy, and there is a smattering of guys who exceed expectations (Slayton would be one). Look at the Eagles. They used a premium pick on Lane Johnson, and the guy is a 12 year cornerstone type. They pick Jason Kelce in the 5th, and he becomes a multi year pro bowler. Sounds like a cop out to say luck is needed, but it kind of is. If everyone knew Aaron Donald would be a hall of fame type, 10 teams wouldn’t have passed on him. Looking at this roster, man, we could use a little dumb luck with say Lemieux and Peart — if they morph into something solid, then I could see things changing.
And then they finished the year 5-4 including beating the Pats in week 17 in a close game that actually meant something.
It obviously wasn't all sunshine and roses, even in this past offseason where they fired their OC and lost Graham to us. But apparently Flores is the real deal because he's clearly gotten them out of the depths of embarrassment. A couple days ago they pounded a healthier 49er team than the one that demolished us and after they take their shot at the final nail in Adam Gase's coffin this weekend they will likely be heading into their bye week at .500.
Their situation may not be predictive for ours but it is example 1,304,502 of how things can change quickly in the NFL. And the fact that Flores had the same pedigree as Judge, right down to hiring Graham as their DCs, certainly does provide a basis for comparison of a hopeful trajectory for our current leader.
And then they finished the year 5-4 including beating the Pats in week 17 in a close game that actually meant something.
It obviously wasn't all sunshine and roses, even in this past offseason where they fired their OC and lost Graham to us. But apparently Flores is the real deal because he's clearly gotten them out of the depths of embarrassment. A couple days ago they pounded a healthier 49er team than the one that demolished us and after they take their shot at the final nail in Adam Gase's coffin this weekend they will likely be heading into their bye week at .500.
Their situation may not be predictive for ours but it is example 1,304,502 of how things can change quickly in the NFL. And the fact that Flores had the same pedigree as Judge, right down to hiring Graham as their DCs, certainly does provide a basis for comparison of a hopeful trajectory for our current leader.
Typically spot on.
I'd argue the single most concerning issue for this team is the slow rate of adding high quality young and young-veteran players in the last 3 years.
Generously, by year, these are the players I think are starters on a future (say 2022) playoff-type team added so far:
- 2018 | Barkley, Hernandez, Gates
- 2019 | Jones, Slayton, Lawrence, Williams
- 2020 | Bradberry, Martinez, Thomas, McKinney, Holmes
I look at the vets acquired -- Tate, Zetlier, Ryan, Fleming, Golden, Frackrell, Lewis, Downs, Ebner, Toilolo -- I think all those guys are gone before the Giants are a playoff team.
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No, I don’t think it’s a natural progression. Think they need a few breaks in drafting, where the guys scouted to be good are actually good and stay healthy, and there is a smattering of guys who exceed expectations (Slayton would be one). Look at the Eagles. They used a premium pick on Lane Johnson, and the guy is a 12 year cornerstone type. They pick Jason Kelce in the 5th, and he becomes a multi year pro bowler. Sounds like a cop out to say luck is needed, but it kind of is. If everyone knew Aaron Donald would be a hall of fame type, 10 teams wouldn’t have passed on him. Looking at this roster, man, we could use a little dumb luck with say Lemieux and Peart — if they morph into something solid, then I could see things changing.
I'd argue the single most concerning issue for this team is the slow rate of adding high quality young and young-veteran players in the last 3 years.
Generously, by year, these are the players I think are starters on a future (say 2022) playoff-type team added so far:
- 2018 | Barkley, Hernandez, Gates
- 2019 | Jones, Slayton, Lawrence, Williams
- 2020 | Bradberry, Martinez, Thomas, McKinney, Holmes
I look at the vets acquired -- Tate, Zetlier, Ryan, Fleming, Golden, Frackrell, Lewis, Downs, Ebner, Toilolo -- I think all those guys are gone before the Giants are a playoff team.
Yup. Giants need Andrew Thomas to be solid at worst, and some other guys other than Slayton to emerge. I always think about how the Seahawks were built ... in 2011, they got Kam Chancellor in the 5th, and in 2012 they got Russell Wilson in the 3rd and Richard Sherman in the 5th ... and away they go. Part of it is coaching, and part of it is, in my opinion, draft and health luck. (The Patriots are the outlier in this of course, where it’s mostly coaching, and BB could win games with replacement level players).
Unlike most, I view this team's personnel as at least an 8-8 group going forward.
And I still view Judge's coaching staff as winners.
This is a starting coaching staff's blip, and its a huge but common, eadily made mistake to lump it together with the 3 previous years. Its NOT part of that group of loses for several reasons, starting with the currently awful OL who have youth and a lot of upside...
If the Giants get a no. 2 WR in the 5th round, a starting center as an UDFA, a slot corner in the 4th round, and their blocking TE on waivers -- that's pretty good luck.
Second, this OL has stayed healthy and with reps they will improve. Especially Gates and Thomas....
Third, given points one and two we should see Jones play better.
On defense, the young secondary should show improvement as well.
We lack top end talent so I'd be stunned if we won more than say 4 to 5 games.
I think this post pretty much sums it up.
I'm pretty convinced Jones's talent is far in excess of Dave Brown so to me the question is more if he's Marcus Mariota/Ryan Tannehill (toolsy guys who were starters that just never progressed in their first 5 years) or Josh Allen/Dak Prescott (who took steady steps forward).
His rookie year was competitive with any of the 4 and arguably better but this year he's obviously regressed. I don't think it's an understatement to say that the success of the rest of this year almost entirely lies on whether or not Garrett can get Jones progressing back to, and ideally beyond, what he was last year. Last week was better but he has not looked comfortable in Garrett's system yet.
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But I think the fans that believe this can be turned around are optimistic about Jones, Barkley, and the young OL. They’re also higher on some players on the defensive side. I don’t agree, but the crux of their position is that the Giants got screwed having a new regime in a COVID shortened off-season.
That doesn't hold water. Carolina and Cleveland have new regimes and are doing well.
Like I said, I don’t agree but that’s their position whether they say so or not. “Just need time to gel.”
I also have hope that the Giants understand to not listen to fans and buckle under pressure when results aren't coming quickly enough with Judge.
Simply put, Judge is my hope, and only on how he presents himself thus far.
I am just reading this now.
I said almost the exact same thing about Judge on a different thread. We don't have information yet to evaluate him, except that he has handled himself well in public That has given some a reason to hope. There is no correlation between good public personas and good HCs. There have been plenty of HC with good personas that sucked, and some that had bad personas that are HOFers. I don't know if or how his persona will translate to being a HC.
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In comment 15008726 TyreeHelmet said:
BillT said:
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If you think inserting a 3rd and 5th round pick is going to solve the issues with this line, you are being overly optimistic. I hope Thomas turns out to be an all pro left tackle, but he has been really bad. And there is little evidence of Hernandez and Gates being good at this level.
So yes you will need to see a massive improvement before next season from all 5 positions to have even an above average O Line.
Lemieux and Peart and Thomas are rookies. Gates is playing his first year at C. Peart is already getting reps at RT and Lemieux is getting om the field as well. I didn't say they were defiantly going to be better (if you read all of my post) but improving in your second year isn't something out of the ordinary. Neither is recovering from an ACL.
I don’t think Shurmur was a long term solution as the head coach on any planet, but the job he did with Jones last year was criminally underrated and obscured by his bad head coaching.
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His rookie year was competitive with any of the 4 and arguably better but this year he's obviously regressed. I don't think it's an understatement to say that the success of the rest of this year almost entirely lies on whether or not Garrett can get Jones progressing back to, and ideally beyond, what he was last year. Last week was better but he has not looked comfortable in Garrett's system yet.
I don’t think Shurmur was a long term solution as the head coach on any planet, but the job he did with Jones last year was criminally underrated and obscured by his bad head coaching.
Completely agree. He also got good years out of Eli, OBJ, and Barkley right away despite the OL.
Not to go down a rabbit hole, but the technical skills Shurmur had coaching QB's made sense for a team about to enter a QB transition. Unfortunately he just has none of the skills necessary to be an effective head coach. If he'd simply been able to hire a defensive coordinator as good as Graham apparently is he'd probably still be here. Even with the ridiculous decisions on challenges, misuse of timeouts, etc.
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His rookie year was competitive with any of the 4 and arguably better but this year he's obviously regressed. I don't think it's an understatement to say that the success of the rest of this year almost entirely lies on whether or not Garrett can get Jones progressing back to, and ideally beyond, what he was last year. Last week was better but he has not looked comfortable in Garrett's system yet.
I don’t think Shurmur was a long term solution as the head coach on any planet, but the job he did with Jones last year was criminally underrated and obscured by his bad head coaching.
This certainly seems to be true...
The flip side of this is, does that mean that getting anything out of Jones requires a special QB guru coaching him? If so, what does that say about Jones and his future?
Right now, they're lacking talent and they need to reinforce the confidence with some success to rally the troops for 2020. What we don't want to see is things fall apart, players checking out, and making 2020 a waste of a development and evaluation year.
I would agree with what seems to be the take of McL and Terps. While we don’t have enough to go on to suggest Judge is the right guy for it, I’d trust his influence in moving forward over anyone in the building.
I do think as fans it’s fair to want something better than that and to the extent we can let the team know that.
This is one of those things that seems to get repeated based off McAdoo's performance in 2017 with his slicked back hair and hotshot attitude.
Let's not forget that in 2016, McAdoo coached the Giants to 11 wins, most of which were close games. He managed game situations very well that year and played a pivotal role in the team's record that year (not the only role, but an important one). Meanwhile, Judge hasn't won a game yet. I don't think that's entirely his fault either - I don't think Halas or Walsh or Landry or Belichick would win with this POS roster that DG built - but can we pump the brakes on Judge managing games better than McAdoo? At least until we see Judge actually manage them to his first career victory?
NGD: you really think Judge & Garrett are a package deal? That really is assuming the worst. I doubt that is true, but if it were, Judge should resign today.
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I feel that we have our HC, definitively. He's light years better than Shurmur and already managing games better than McAdoo ever did.
This is one of those things that seems to get repeated based off McAdoo's performance in 2017 with his slicked back hair and hotshot attitude.
Let's not forget that in 2016, McAdoo coached the Giants to 11 wins, most of which were close games. He managed game situations very well that year and played a pivotal role in the team's record that year (not the only role, but an important one). Meanwhile, Judge hasn't won a game yet. I don't think that's entirely his fault either - I don't think Halas or Walsh or Landry or Belichick would win with this POS roster that DG built - but can we pump the brakes on Judge managing games better than McAdoo? At least until we see Judge actually manage them to his first career victory?
Ah, 2016, the year Steve Spagnuolo's defense carried the team to 11 wins.
They need to focus on drafting top talent in high value positions.
Use FA judiciously to fill in lower value positions and create depth.
People who believe that the Giants are ascending say that there is talent on the team. The problem is, the places where the Giants have talent are at low value positions. I am convinced that there is something rotten in the scouting department. Some of it may be Mara meddling, but I suspect they need to clean house there. Too many of these guys have been there for 20-30 years.
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I feel that we have our HC, definitively. He's light years better than Shurmur and already managing games better than McAdoo ever did.
This is one of those things that seems to get repeated based off McAdoo's performance in 2017 with his slicked back hair and hotshot attitude.
Let's not forget that in 2016, McAdoo coached the Giants to 11 wins, most of which were close games. He managed game situations very well that year and played a pivotal role in the team's record that year (not the only role, but an important one). Meanwhile, Judge hasn't won a game yet. I don't think that's entirely his fault either - I don't think Halas or Walsh or Landry or Belichick would win with this POS roster that DG built - but can we pump the brakes on Judge managing games better than McAdoo? At least until we see Judge actually manage them to his first career victory?
McAdoo had a fresh crop of FA talent that played well before getting injured the next year. Then it was right back to shit. He also got Beckham’s last great year.
Judge is managing games well, that’s a fact. He’s also gotten a lot out of a defense without a star player or any pass rusher at all. You can think what you want on it but this is a discussion about today, so that’s what I’m commenting on. If by seasons end Judge starts fucking up then I’ll call that out too.
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In comment 15008683 UConn4523 said:
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I feel that we have our HC, definitively. He's light years better than Shurmur and already managing games better than McAdoo ever did.
This is one of those things that seems to get repeated based off McAdoo's performance in 2017 with his slicked back hair and hotshot attitude.
Let's not forget that in 2016, McAdoo coached the Giants to 11 wins, most of which were close games. He managed game situations very well that year and played a pivotal role in the team's record that year (not the only role, but an important one). Meanwhile, Judge hasn't won a game yet. I don't think that's entirely his fault either - I don't think Halas or Walsh or Landry or Belichick would win with this POS roster that DG built - but can we pump the brakes on Judge managing games better than McAdoo? At least until we see Judge actually manage them to his first career victory?
Ah, 2016, the year Steve Spagnuolo's defense carried the team to 11 wins.
That's about as solid an argument as claiming that Josh McDaniels' offense carried the Patriots to 17 wins in 2007. To completely discredit the head coach is willfully obtuse.
Spaguolo was still DC in 2017, wasn't he? With largely the same roster on that side of the ball, he oversaw one of the worst defenses in NFL history. If he was the sole reason for the wins in 2016, he sure forgot what worked a year later.
Jones is not there yet but he has very little to work with now. Star RB is gone for the year. He has no receivers to throw to except Slayton and the line flat out sucks.
The defense is still “finding itself”. Too many injuries to make any real progress though (Carter, Ximines, McKinney, Peppers, etc.). And we still don’t know who the #2 corner is if they even have one.
They’re moving guys from the PS onto the roster constantly meaning they are loading up the roster with free agents. When CJ Board and now Austin Mack are your #3 and 4 receivers you know the talent level is poor. This is a roster too full of average players.
So, no, it won’t get any better this year and maybe not even next year. This team still has a long way to go.
Of course there's like 10 other major components to being a good coach and McAdoo was terrible at all of them. I honestly can't come up with a positive for the guy outside of his game management skills.