BBK shared yesterday a behind the scenes “off the record “ conversation.
It was Troy Aikman s rookie season, one of the worst rookie seasons ever, he got benched for Steve Walsch.
Parcells with cigarette in hand, loved Aikman as a player said, “ Boys, it takes 30 games before you know about a quarterback in this league,” this when there were just 14 games per season
I hear the argument, Its a different era, but I m old school enough to believe it still is valid; also I remember the Phil Simms era.
A more recent example might be Tannahill (sp) a bust with Miami, maybe a rising star with the Titans.
There are posters here I respect who have about written Jones off, I think they are premature.
There are others who’s criticisms border on obnoxious and are obviously being done to poke the bear, I ignore them.
I would be curious to know if Parcells still ascribes to this theory
I am a big fan of Jones, but what frustrates me (as probably with most of you) is that he is making the same mistakes that he did last year. I know not having a training camp or preseason games was a detriment into his development, but all we heard was how much time he put in the off season to getting his body ready for the rigors of being an NFL QB as well as studying film on how to make corrections.
I look at the other side of the discussion on this. In my view, he is not rattled by the rush and has courage in the pocket. You cannot teach that. Even Eli was doing the chuck and duck thing. Jones will stand in there and will deliver the ball.
If I am the coach, I tell him to count to 3 and get the hell out of the pocket and use the legs. Do that enough times picking up first downs and now the defense has to prepare for him differently which will likely give him more time in the pocket.
Interesting to me is that YPA hasn't changed dramatically in 25 years.
Completely agreed.
This offense exposes his weaknesses more then it plays to its strengths.
the league moved to a 16 game season in 1978
In 1978 Bill Parcells had 0 games NFL experience in any coaching capacity.
Then in other threads...
The WRs suck and cannot get open
The OL sucks and is not giving Jones time
Engram sucks - cannot block or get open
Barkley is over rated and cannot pass protect
Which of these things is not true? How can we expect a QB with just 16 games as a starter (and no training camp or OTAs as a starter) to be evaluated fairly?
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The league is so different now you may as well post a quote from Knute Rockne.
Interesting to me is that YPA hasn't changed dramatically in 25 years.
Might want to check your numbers on that.
League average YPA in 1995: 6.8
League average YPA in 2020: 7.4
Top 10 YPA in 1995: 7.8, 7.7, 7.6, 7.5, 7.4, 7.4, 7.4, 7.3, 7.2, 7.0
Top 10 YPA in 2020: 9.0, 8.9, 8.9, 8.7, 8.4, 8.3, 8.2, 8.2, 8.2, 8.2
Fun fact: The Giants' current anemic 6.1 YPA (30th in NFL ahead of only WFT and NYJ) would have ranked 26th in the NFL in 1995. Absolutely pathetic.
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In comment 15008755 Go Terps said:
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The league is so different now you may as well post a quote from Knute Rockne.
Interesting to me is that YPA hasn't changed dramatically in 25 years.
Might want to check your numbers on that.
League average YPA in 1995: 6.8
League average YPA in 2020: 7.4
Top 10 YPA in 1995: 7.8, 7.7, 7.6, 7.5, 7.4, 7.4, 7.4, 7.3, 7.2, 7.0
Top 10 YPA in 2020: 9.0, 8.9, 8.9, 8.7, 8.4, 8.3, 8.2, 8.2, 8.2, 8.2
Fun fact: The Giants' current anemic 6.1 YPA (30th in NFL ahead of only WFT and NYJ) would have ranked 26th in the NFL in 1995. Absolutely pathetic.
Ok, well you must admit that only comparing two seasons doesn't provide much context. An in depth study would study the results year by year over the long haul.
That is hyperbole...
If you accept what Parcells said, then Jones is still a prospect. Jones was not a better prospect coming out than TL is or even was after his Freshman year. So if after 20 games the QB is still a prospect and you have a chance to upgrade to a much better prospect you might as well do it. The QB is the engine that makes everything else go.
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In comment 15008763 crick n NC said:
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In comment 15008755 Go Terps said:
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The league is so different now you may as well post a quote from Knute Rockne.
Interesting to me is that YPA hasn't changed dramatically in 25 years.
Might want to check your numbers on that.
League average YPA in 1995: 6.8
League average YPA in 2020: 7.4
Top 10 YPA in 1995: 7.8, 7.7, 7.6, 7.5, 7.4, 7.4, 7.4, 7.3, 7.2, 7.0
Top 10 YPA in 2020: 9.0, 8.9, 8.9, 8.7, 8.4, 8.3, 8.2, 8.2, 8.2, 8.2
Fun fact: The Giants' current anemic 6.1 YPA (30th in NFL ahead of only WFT and NYJ) would have ranked 26th in the NFL in 1995. Absolutely pathetic.
Ok, well you must admit that only comparing two seasons doesn't provide much context. An in depth study would study the results year by year over the long haul.
Then you might want to do such a study before making your initial claim completely without context.
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In comment 15008780 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15008763 crick n NC said:
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In comment 15008755 Go Terps said:
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The league is so different now you may as well post a quote from Knute Rockne.
Interesting to me is that YPA hasn't changed dramatically in 25 years.
Might want to check your numbers on that.
League average YPA in 1995: 6.8
League average YPA in 2020: 7.4
Top 10 YPA in 1995: 7.8, 7.7, 7.6, 7.5, 7.4, 7.4, 7.4, 7.3, 7.2, 7.0
Top 10 YPA in 2020: 9.0, 8.9, 8.9, 8.7, 8.4, 8.3, 8.2, 8.2, 8.2, 8.2
Fun fact: The Giants' current anemic 6.1 YPA (30th in NFL ahead of only WFT and NYJ) would have ranked 26th in the NFL in 1995. Absolutely pathetic.
Ok, well you must admit that only comparing two seasons doesn't provide much context. An in depth study would study the results year by year over the long haul.
Then you might want to do such a study before making your initial claim completely without context.
I actually looked it over last night and didn't find a dramatic difference.
Randomly looking at other seasons the last 25 years tells a similar story. I don't know what you're looking at, but if you think the nature of passing (and how it's reflected in YPA) hasn't changed much in the last 25 years, there isn't much data making a case to support you.
hahhahahaha..
Randomly looking at other seasons the last 25 years tells a similar story. I don't know what you're looking at, but if you think the nature of passing (and how it's reflected in YPA) hasn't changed much in the last 25 years, there isn't much data making a case to support you.
My point Terps is that I believe it is overstated (keyword) how much easier it is to pass today compared to 25 years ago. Again, I feel it's exaggerated, I didn't say it hasn't changed, that would be incorrect.
What is going to happen in these next 13 starts to completely flip the script?
By that same token we might as well trade for Ryan Fitzpatrick since he became the only QB in history to throw 3 400 yard games in a row. Heck that means he is awesome. THE ONLY ONE To ever do that!!
What is going to happen in these next 13 starts to completely flip the script?
What happened with Eli that regular season finale in 07? Certainly that was close to Eli's fourth year, but he certainly turned the corner. Eli also had a stable coaching staff and was surrounded with quality players.
Games to determine a qbs worth isn't a hard metric. There are surrounding circumstances.
With Jones, nothing.
How does Jones look compared with Minshew even. How about Herbert? And those guys are still rookies.
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I just looked at 2005 (Eli's second year, which many want to compare to Jones's second year). Two teams over 8 YPA (8.2 and 8.1), league average 6.8.
Randomly looking at other seasons the last 25 years tells a similar story. I don't know what you're looking at, but if you think the nature of passing (and how it's reflected in YPA) hasn't changed much in the last 25 years, there isn't much data making a case to support you.
My point Terps is that I believe it is overstated (keyword) how much easier it is to pass today compared to 25 years ago. Again, I feel it's exaggerated, I didn't say it hasn't changed, that would be incorrect.
exaggerated, that passing is easier to day than 25 years ago? any reading of the numbers tells you this. Every 7 years or so, starting in 1970 the league systematically instituted rules to make passing easier. so passing was much easier in 1984 than it was in 1975. It was easier in 1998 than it was in 1984. It was far easier in 2005 than it was in 1998. And it is so much easier today than in 2005. Just look at the number of 4000 yard seasons as a measure. You don;t think Stabler, Staubach, Bradshaw and Fouts would have loved this era with no bump and run and all the qb protections? They would have ate this era up. Today 2019 Daniel Jones looks as good as 1974 Ken Stabler . I assure you he is not.
Jones was, by most experts, a reach at 6 and almost nobody believed he was the best QB in that draft class. He was a walk on at Duke.
There is a reason why one got a much longer leash than the other. I don't think anyone has said Jones can't turn into a bona fide NFL QB. But each week he makes the same mistakes over and over again, it gets harder to see that.
Surrounding circumstances?
Everyone acts like Eli was on a team with like 10 pro bowlers.
ELI ELEVATED HIS MEDIOCRE ROSTER TO DEFEAT TEAMS WITH MULTIPLE PRO BOWLERS!
Were they ever favored in ANY playoff game? How many pro bowlers did Dallas have when the upset them in '07? THey upset the Packers, 9ers , the undefeated goat in the fucking show. And you are going to tell me about rosters?
Hi Les, Brady only got in 1 game and threw 3 passes as a rookie.
Jones crushed Brady in a rookie vs rookie comparison.
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Will be Tom Brady leading their teams to championships in their rookie seasons. Let’s see where the chips fall at the end of the season.
Hi Les, Brady only got in 1 game and threw 3 passes as a rookie.
Jones crushed Brady in a rookie vs rookie comparison.
hilarious. please don;t compare Daniel Jones to Tom Brady. Please. You're embarrassing yourself.
With Jones, nothing.
That is kind of the point. Eli had a chance. You mentioned that Judge can't be judged because of the team he was handed, well, why isn't that same logic applied Jones?
Saying Judge doesn't stand a chance because of the roster sounds like something you would describe as an excuse.
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surrounding circumstances.
Surrounding circumstances?
Everyone acts like Eli was on a team with like 10 pro bowlers.
ELI ELEVATED HIS MEDIOCRE ROSTER TO DEFEAT TEAMS WITH MULTIPLE PRO BOWLERS!
Were they ever favored in ANY playoff game? How many pro bowlers did Dallas have when the upset them in '07? THey upset the Packers, 9ers , the undefeated goat in the fucking show. And you are going to tell me about rosters?
Eli had good weapons to work with sans 04. The roster began to crumble around him in 09 in reference to the OL.
Jones was, by most experts, a reach at 6 and almost nobody believed he was the best QB in that draft class. He was a walk on at Duke.
There is a reason why one got a much longer leash than the other. I don't think anyone has said Jones can't turn into a bona fide NFL QB. But each week he makes the same mistakes over and over again, it gets harder to see that.
Hi Mike, that's certainly fair and reasonable. I value surrounding circumstances more than some and this is where the disconnect is, and that's fine as long as we at least take the time to consider our stances have their shortcomings.
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surrounding circumstances.
Surrounding circumstances?
Everyone acts like Eli was on a team with like 10 pro bowlers.
ELI ELEVATED HIS MEDIOCRE ROSTER TO DEFEAT TEAMS WITH MULTIPLE PRO BOWLERS!
Were they ever favored in ANY playoff game? How many pro bowlers did Dallas have when the upset them in '07? THey upset the Packers, 9ers , the undefeated goat in the fucking show. And you are going to tell me about rosters?
Eli had good weapons to work with sans 04. The roster began to crumble around him in 09 in reference to the OL.
Tiki, Toomer, Shockey, Ike, Eli had weapons as a rookie, he had a crap left side of his OL though and a young right side.
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The answer is nothing. And even if you want to make the comparison, we made the playoffs with Eli from '05-'07. You could see the signs with him.
With Jones, nothing.
That is kind of the point. Eli had a chance. You mentioned that Judge can't be judged because of the team he was handed, well, why isn't that same logic applied Jones?
Saying Judge doesn't stand a chance because of the roster sounds like something you would describe as an excuse.
Because Judge is clearly doing a pretty good job despite the poor roster. Jones is clearly doing a terrible job, where fundamental issues like staring down his primary receiver and turning over the ball persist, and ruin games that can potentially be won.
Jones is of course impacted by the team around him, but they are also impacted by his poor performance and he isn't showing signs of improvement.
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In comment 15008866 Black_Flag said:
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surrounding circumstances.
Surrounding circumstances?
Everyone acts like Eli was on a team with like 10 pro bowlers.
ELI ELEVATED HIS MEDIOCRE ROSTER TO DEFEAT TEAMS WITH MULTIPLE PRO BOWLERS!
Were they ever favored in ANY playoff game? How many pro bowlers did Dallas have when the upset them in '07? THey upset the Packers, 9ers , the undefeated goat in the fucking show. And you are going to tell me about rosters?
Eli had good weapons to work with sans 04. The roster began to crumble around him in 09 in reference to the OL.
Tiki, Toomer, Shockey, Ike, Eli had weapons as a rookie, he had a crap left side of his OL though and a young right side.
Pj, certainly, The OL needed upgrading as you mentioned and was upgraded. However, adding Burress was crucial, as the Giants didn't have anyone to stretch the filed vertically which was a crucial element in Coughlin's offense to function properly.
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In comment 15008855 Go Terps said:
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The answer is nothing. And even if you want to make the comparison, we made the playoffs with Eli from '05-'07. You could see the signs with him.
With Jones, nothing.
That is kind of the point. Eli had a chance. You mentioned that Judge can't be judged because of the team he was handed, well, why isn't that same logic applied Jones?
Saying Judge doesn't stand a chance because of the roster sounds like something you would describe as an excuse.
Because Judge is clearly doing a pretty good job despite the poor roster. Jones is clearly doing a terrible job, where fundamental issues like staring down his primary receiver and turning over the ball persist, and ruin games that can potentially be won.
Jones is of course impacted by the team around him, but they are also impacted by his poor performance and he isn't showing signs of improvement.
Terps, I can meet you half way with that. We don't agree with perhaps how much Jones' environment is affecting him. He certainly is contributing to some of the issues, but to me learning another new offense has it's affects as well.
I am not seeking 100% agreement with anyone necessarily. I think it's good when people can at least attempt to see where each are coming from.
Ernie would not have done this. Heck they had Dave freakin Brown who was what Jeff Hostetlers back-up?
Gettle makes a bone headed move and this team sucks and we act like prayer power is going to get us through this.
Ernie believed in rebuilds. He also believed in drafting in QB heavy class with a top pick. He also signed Kerry Collins as a free agent and paid a lot of money for him.
You don't do what Gettleman has done and say well "he looks better than Eli". "Eli had a better roster". This is nonsense.
Not surprised any suggestion that Jones might be the guy would be rejected by the detractors, even if it shared the philosophy of the sainted Parcells.
I will root hard for Jones and a Giants win this Sunday and the following Sundays. If at the end of the year the Giants are in position to draft Lawerence, they probably will, I ll be fine with that and root like hell for him.
I rather be that guy than a fan who would rather Jones fail and be proven right, than succeed and proven wrong, there is definitely the feel of that with some posters, especially on the game day threads which I visit after games.
This isn't the right offense for anyone living in 2020. If not for a couple turnovers and 50 yard field goals this team scores under 20 against the pathetic Dallas defense. They averaged an awful 4.8 yards per play against that defense.
Hopefully Garrett is out the door at the end of the year. What led Mara to hire him I'll never know. Oh wait yes I do... he's family!
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I'm inclined to believe this is not the right offense for him.
This isn't the right offense for anyone living in 2020. If not for a couple turnovers and 50 yard field goals this team scores under 20 against the pathetic Dallas defense. They averaged an awful 4.8 yards per play against that defense.
Hopefully Garrett is out the door at the end of the year. What led Mara to hire him I'll never know. Oh wait yes I do... he's family!
It really is disappointing if this is the reason
What, you don't like:
- Keeping an athletic QB with no pocket presence in the pocket?
- Running plays on 2nd and 10?
- One of the lowest usages of pre-snap motion in the NFL?
- Low YAC passing routes (according to Evan Silva Evan Engram leads the NFL in button hooks run)?
This offense has been a total disaster. Everyone in Dallas hated Garrett's offense - so let's hire him.
Disaster.
They are using motion pre snap and mixing up the plays with trick plays and finally trying to get engram on little end Arline’s. They had designed runs with jones w the 49ers. Maybe they figured he could not run well against Dallas as effectively.
Jones can’t really run and throw good. Jones is at his best when he is either scrambling or sitting in the pocket with all day to throw ; staring at one receiver and throwing the ball. Aside from that he is pretty ineffective... how far is that going to go in the nfl?
They are using motion pre snap and mixing up the plays with trick plays and finally trying to get engram on little end Arline’s. They had designed runs with jones w the 49ers. Maybe they figured he could not run well against Dallas as effectively.
Jones can’t really run and throw good. Jones is at his best when he is either scrambling or sitting in the pocket with all day to throw ; staring at one receiver and throwing the ball. Aside from that he is pretty ineffective... how far is that going to go in the nfl?
I posted the graphic last week - the Giants (before the Dallas game) used pre-snap motion something like 5.9% of plays, which ranked them near the very bottom of the league.
If you read/listen to any of the analytics guys like Sharp, Establish the Run, The Athletic...the Giants are an archaic joke and have been for a while. The response to that from posters who are defenders of the faith has been to call those sources hacks, but the losses keep piling up so I know who I think it's right and who is full of shit.
Yes, and the damage done in those five games has been significant enough to help create an 0-5 start.
Again, what do you think is going to happen with time and more losses under our belt? Things are just going to click? When they finish 3-13 are you going to say it's only 16 games? What about next year when they go 4-12?
These are problems that need solving now.
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Games into a new system.
Yes, and the damage done in those five games has been significant enough to help create an 0-5 start.
Again, what do you think is going to happen with time and more losses under our belt? Things are just going to click? When they finish 3-13 are you going to say it's only 16 games? What about next year when they go 4-12?
These are problems that need solving now.
It's a simple point, nothing more.
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Games into a new system.
Yes, and the damage done in those five games has been significant enough to help create an 0-5 start.
Again, what do you think is going to happen with time and more losses under our belt? Things are just going to click? When they finish 3-13 are you going to say it's only 16 games? What about next year when they go 4-12?
These are problems that need solving now.
This is over the top negativity. We have a bunch of talented but young players (1st ,2nd year guys), a new coaching staff that has a full 5 games under their belt with no preseason, and a new system. What did you expect, a 5-0 record? We have been in 3 games with a chance to win, and in my view are getting better. You can't blame this staff, and most of these young players, for the past 8 years of Giants crappy football, but that seems to be what you are taking a broad brush and doing.
In your doomsday scenario's, if the team/players doesn't show immediate results and gratification, then you yearly dump everyone and start over. That will never work.
We will know a lot more about all of the above at the end of the season.
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Games into a new system.
Yes, and the damage done in those five games has been significant enough to help create an 0-5 start.
Again, what do you think is going to happen with time and more losses under our belt? Things are just going to click? When they finish 3-13 are you going to say it's only 16 games? What about next year when they go 4-12?
These are problems that need solving now.
Terps we could go 3-13 every year for 3 more years and posters will still be saying Jones just needs more time
You get young players you believe in, and stick with them through the growing pains. Thats all you can do. You can't just turn over the roster and coaching staff every year because we didn't go 10-6. We will be in constant turmoil
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The Giants are one of the worst offensive teams in the NFL. That's fact, not negativity. Expecting them to improve "just because" is based on wishes and hopes - not anything we're actually seeing on the field.
You get young players you believe in, and stick with them through the growing pains. Thats all you can do. You can't just turn over the roster and coaching staff every year because we didn't go 10-6. We will be in constant turmoil
I agree. The problem is we don't have players to believe in. And that starts at quarterback.
This is only a discussion because there are a couple of QB prospects at the top of the upcoming drafts that appear superior to anything we've seen in nearly a decade maybe more.
If the scenario was different, lets say there were no big time QB prospects. Or that the Giants were a better team and there were no QB prospects available where they were picking. In that case, we would all be talking what kind of improvement we want to see in him going into next year. We might also be talking about some competition to push him. But we wouldn't be talking about giving up on him.
The discussion is only happening in the context of, if the Giants are so bad that they are in a position to draft Lawrence or possible Fields, should they move on. There is a contingent that says that these prospects are just too good to pass on, while Jones' potential seems to be dimming.
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The Giants are one of the worst offensive teams in the NFL. That's fact, not negativity. Expecting them to improve "just because" is based on wishes and hopes - not anything we're actually seeing on the field.
You get young players you believe in, and stick with them through the growing pains. Thats all you can do. You can't just turn over the roster and coaching staff every year because we didn't go 10-6. We will be in constant turmoil
There is a very wide gap between "not going 10-6", and being bottom of the league. Its not even exaggeration to say bottom of the league.
What is gained by misreprentung this as being fickle fans?
This is over the top negativity. We have a bunch of talented but young players (1st ,2nd year guys),
I wouldn't say that we have a bunch of young, talented players. We're lucky if we have the league average amount of young, talented players.
exaggerated, that passing is easier to day than 25 years ago? any reading of the numbers tells you this. Every 7 years or so, starting in 1970 the league systematically instituted rules to make passing easier. so passing was much easier in 1984 than it was in 1975. It was easier in 1998 than it was in 1984. It was far easier in 2005 than it was in 1998. And it is so much easier today than in 2005. Just look at the number of 4000 yard seasons as a measure. You don;t think Stabler, Staubach, Bradshaw and Fouts would have loved this era with no bump and run and all the qb protections? They would have ate this era up. Today 2019 Daniel Jones looks as good as 1974 Ken Stabler . I assure you he is not.
Indeed. Furthermore, the other material difference is that the college game and pro game are more similar than ever today. So it’s a much easier transition. Back in the ‘70s and ‘80s, the college game, with the exception of a WAC teams like BYU, San Diego St, Hawaii, etc, was mostly rooted in the running game. And while the NFL was more run oriented too back then, the passing game was much more sophisticated in the NFL with guys like Coryell and Walsh really advancing their philosophies.
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In comment 15009151 crick n NC said:
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Games into a new system.
Yes, and the damage done in those five games has been significant enough to help create an 0-5 start.
Again, what do you think is going to happen with time and more losses under our belt? Things are just going to click? When they finish 3-13 are you going to say it's only 16 games? What about next year when they go 4-12?
These are problems that need solving now.
Terps we could go 3-13 every year for 3 more years and posters will still be saying Jones just needs more time
I don’t think this is in any way true. You understand of course 17 games with a bad team in Upheaval is not quite the same...right?
I see comments like this all and they are always very non-specific. How is this offense outdated? Aren’t we running the same concept as basically every other team in the league? Isn’t this the same scheme that made Dallas the #1 offense in the league last year?
I am considering that perhaps the full offense isn't on display yet for various reasons.
Yes, there could be circumstances outside of our knowledge, but I can only work with what's on camera. They're not doing any favors for Jones or the offensive line by not doing things to scheme WR and TEs open. The only time they have success is when Slayton gets a favorable match-up against a weak corner.
Garrett also hasn't called plays since 2012.
Yes, there could be circumstances outside of our knowledge, but I can only work with what's on camera. They're not doing any favors for Jones or the offensive line by not doing things to scheme WR and TEs open. The only time they have success is when Slayton gets a favorable match-up against a weak corner.
In my view Garrett knows offense, so I can't imagine he isn't apply that knowledge to the current situation. Now, if you don't feel Garrett is a good offensive mind then you're not likely to accept my reasoning which is obviously fine.
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In comment 15009164 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15009151 crick n NC said:
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Games into a new system.
Yes, and the damage done in those five games has been significant enough to help create an 0-5 start.
Again, what do you think is going to happen with time and more losses under our belt? Things are just going to click? When they finish 3-13 are you going to say it's only 16 games? What about next year when they go 4-12?
These are problems that need solving now.
Terps we could go 3-13 every year for 3 more years and posters will still be saying Jones just needs more time
I don’t think this is in any way true. You understand of course 17 games with a bad team in Upheaval is not quite the same...right?
I have no doubts that the Daniel Jones Defense Force will make excuses for him no matter how bad the record is.
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In comment 15009188 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 15009164 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15009151 crick n NC said:
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Games into a new system.
Yes, and the damage done in those five games has been significant enough to help create an 0-5 start.
Again, what do you think is going to happen with time and more losses under our belt? Things are just going to click? When they finish 3-13 are you going to say it's only 16 games? What about next year when they go 4-12?
These are problems that need solving now.
Terps we could go 3-13 every year for 3 more years and posters will still be saying Jones just needs more time
I don’t think this is in any way true. You understand of course 17 games with a bad team in Upheaval is not quite the same...right?
I have no doubts that the Daniel Jones Defense Force will make excuses for him no matter how bad the record is.
I get the same feeling too? Why? is what I wonder. Did they just make up their minds about him early and will