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GBN's Colin Lindsay: Anatomy of a wasted off-season

M.S. : 10/15/2020 7:00 am
Mr. Lindsay ends his 1,100-word essay with these two sentences:

"The NFL is a passing league and you need guys that can run and catch passes, guys that can run and get after the QB, and guys that run and cover the other guy’s fast guys that can run and catch passes. It ain’t rocket science."

We're talking of course about the Giants here, so keep it civil, eh.

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RE: not that is really matters much  
sb from NYT Forum : 10/15/2020 11:02 am : link
In comment 15009446 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
but Beal opting out was shitty. Was looking forward to seeing if he was a player or not. He played decently well down the stretch in 2019.


Respectfully disagree. In the 4 games he played he gave up over 75% completion percentage and a passer rating of 115. I guess he had a lot of tackles and a safety, but he wasn't very good in pass coverage.
Beal Game Log - ( New Window )
Just awful  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/15/2020 11:07 am : link
Meanwhile, the team that lived and died by the mantra that ‘you can never have enough pass rushers’ hasn’t taken an edge rusher with a premium 1st or 2nd round pick since 2010 when they took Jason Pierre-Paul.

Bottom line is that it appears that the Giants blew through something in the area of $60M in cap space and did nothing, or at least almost nothing, to upgrade the pass rush, to fill in the gaps in their coverage units, to improve the speed at the skill positions on offense, or address the big hole at C on the offensive front!
RE: if Judge is good & Bradberry/Martinez/Thomas are good going forward  
JonC : 10/15/2020 11:10 am : link
In comment 15009409 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
is it still a wasted offseason? Just checking.


Desperately need Thomas to succeed, otherwise it's close to a yes/wasted for me. Martinez and Bradberry are both plus players, but given their respective ages and the current state of the roster, they run the risk of being wasted.
RE: RE: if Judge is good & Bradberry/Martinez/Thomas are good going forward  
Thegratefulhead : 10/15/2020 11:14 am : link
In comment 15009505 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 15009409 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


is it still a wasted offseason? Just checking.



Desperately need Thomas to succeed, otherwise it's close to a yes/wasted for me. Martinez and Bradberry are both plus players, but given their respective ages and the current state of the roster, they run the risk of being wasted.
Agreed.
RE: if Judge is good & Bradberry/Martinez/Thomas are good going forward  
SGMen : 10/15/2020 11:15 am : link
In comment 15009409 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
is it still a wasted offseason? Just checking.
I still have faith in Thomas but we also need to be "super lucky" and hope that Thomas, McKinney, Peart, Holmes and Lemiuex are all quality starters. We need one of those great drafts that really lifts the team. So far, we haven't seen it but without a true off-season how can we possibly judge this early in the season?
I stick to my prediction that post-bye we will look much better even if we "struggle" to still score points due to our lack of playmakers. As long as the team understands the system and what Judge wants, and we identify our core for the future, this season won't be a total loss.
This is something some of us have talked about for a while  
arniefez : 10/15/2020 11:18 am : link
#17 pick in the draft and 16 million for two average run pluggers who can't pass rush shows the Giants are philosophically over matched in the current NFL.

It's a speed league and the Giants have been a slow team for years.
RE: Just awful  
section125 : 10/15/2020 11:23 am : link
In comment 15009502 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Meanwhile, the team that lived and died by the mantra that ‘you can never have enough pass rushers’ hasn’t taken an edge rusher with a premium 1st or 2nd round pick since 2010 when they took Jason Pierre-Paul.

Bottom line is that it appears that the Giants blew through something in the area of $60M in cap space and did nothing, or at least almost nothing, to upgrade the pass rush, to fill in the gaps in their coverage units, to improve the speed at the skill positions on offense, or address the big hole at C on the offensive front!


Like someone else said, so Martinez and Bradberry didn't address anything? So moving Gates to C hasn't addressed anything?(yes jury is out on Gates but it sure looks like he is far better than Halapio and Pulley in only 5 games EVER at C) We have not seen McKinney yet. Ryan and Lewis are definite upgrades to what was there.
You cannot fix the entire team in one season.

I just don't get what you expected. Yes Andrew Thomas is having a tough few games. But they are working on his punch and steps. He is bound to get confused in the changes to his technique.
If you don't think ILB is better, IDK what to think.
RE: Just awful  
GManinDC : 10/15/2020 11:30 am : link
In comment 15009502 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Meanwhile, the team that lived and died by the mantra that ‘you can never have enough pass rushers’ hasn’t taken an edge rusher with a premium 1st or 2nd round pick since 2010 when they took Jason Pierre-Paul.

Bottom line is that it appears that the Giants blew through something in the area of $60M in cap space and did nothing, or at least almost nothing, to upgrade the pass rush, to fill in the gaps in their coverage units, to improve the speed at the skill positions on offense, or address the big hole at C on the offensive front!


But, but Connelly...
I dont think anyone is arguing that Bradberry hasn't been good.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/15/2020 11:37 am : link
The issue is needing 4-5 playable corners.

Beal opts out, Baker gets arrested. Big losses considering those were projected starters. They trade a pick for Yiadom (who is awful), and pass on Cockrell and Amukamara, who were both available.

Also, come on with gates. Your *intention* was go into a football season with a second year QB who had a lot to prove, and pair him with a center who had barely played in the NFL and never played center before?That was your best hand? Thats the criticism. They didn't even bring in a veteran to compete with. Even if Gates turns out to be good, it still isn't a good plan. How is that putting the offense in position to have success if the interior OL can't block for Jones or Barkley?

Why did they do the smart thing and bring in a veteran backup tackle, but do nothing at all for center?

Its a mixed bag of moves and money wasn't the issue.

And all the talent at WR  
GManinDC : 10/15/2020 11:39 am : link
they brought in..
Holmes  
ryanmkeane : 10/15/2020 11:54 am : link
has shown a decent amount early on. I think that's a good draft pick. He can part of the solution on defense.
it is like a lot of things on BBI  
English Alaister : 10/15/2020 12:54 pm : link
There are several shades of grey (not to sound all Cam in MO) but yet we try to divide into camps of black and white.

Let's cover the bad luck first. The CB situation is a cluster and Baker may have been a player. Beal could have papered it over. Colin doesn't really cover the Logan Ryan acquisition which has helped but DG has been screwed over a bit here.

Actually what really annoys me most though is trading up for Baker and not having extra rolls of the dice. This is where analytics or common sense comes in. I still don't get why DG, a guy I consider to be a good scout did not give himself extra bits at the cherry. You also have to question Baker's character even before the armed robbery. Took plays off.

You do then get onto the really worrying stuff. Levine Toilolo is a great example. Why we're paying good money to a poor one-paced blocking TE when Kaden Smith looked promising last year I just don't get. Wasn't fixing free safety or nickel corner more important? An outside WR maybe?

I also don't get the Connolly thing. He is a quality player and we let him go for Devante Downs. Maybe that's Judge. I dunno but I hate it.

I've been very fair to Gettleman but there's too much to defend. I don't hate on the Barkley or Jones picks although I understand why some do and that's fine but where I do ultimately agree with Colin is I don't get the feeling that we are optimising our assets and that is frustrating.
RE: All this talk about  
.McL. : 10/15/2020 1:34 pm : link
In comment 15009353 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
it being a passing league is true. But take a look at the top 10 rushing teams in football every year, especially last year. They make the playoffs like clockwork.

Having a bunch of fast receivers doesn’t always equate to wins.

You need to understand why and when teams run the ball...
Teams pass early to get a lead, or late to catch up.
Teams with a lead run the ball to run out the clock. You are assuming that running causes winning. In fact it is the other way around, winning a game causes more running.

This is of course an over simplification. But there are correlations between increases or decrease in rushing based on game situation that is verifiable.

The point is, that winning teams will run more often to maintain a lead and get the game over with ASAP. Passing gets the lead, and it is passing success that i is correlated with getting a lead, and more highly correlated with winning game. I.E> passing causes winning, and winning causes rushing.
RE: Not drafting well  
.McL. : 10/15/2020 1:37 pm : link
In comment 15009356 JonC said:
Quote:
not seeing much production from your top 4 overall picks is crucial, and as I warned before UFA started last year, don't be so certain that they'll fix things spending up to the cap. $60M in cap space spent and not much to show for it on the whole.

I have posted many times over the past 2 years how poorly the cap space is used by this FO. I have shown howas much as 95 million just went *POOF* and we had nothing to show for. I predicted the same would happen to this years 60+ million. This FO has no idea how to acquire players and effectively use their cap space. It's disastrous.
RE: if Judge is good & Bradberry/Martinez/Thomas are good going forward  
TyreeHelmet : 10/15/2020 2:04 pm : link
In comment 15009409 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
is it still a wasted offseason? Just checking.


Honestly? Yes it is. This team is devoid of talent across the board. You can't fix it all in one offseason but there are some serious holes left.

Bradberry and Martinez are good players. But they also aren't exactly on bargain contracts. I think Gettlemans fate will ultimately come down to how Jones, Thomas and the Oline look the rest of the season. But right now its ugly.

Lastly, don't you expect more of your GM? It doesn't take a genius to pay big money to bring a free agents. And I sure hope he gets a good tackle for picking 4th overall.

RE: RE: All this talk about  
Thegratefulhead : 10/15/2020 2:28 pm : link
In comment 15009712 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 15009353 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


it being a passing league is true. But take a look at the top 10 rushing teams in football every year, especially last year. They make the playoffs like clockwork.

Having a bunch of fast receivers doesn’t always equate to wins.


You need to understand why and when teams run the ball...
Teams pass early to get a lead, or late to catch up.
Teams with a lead run the ball to run out the clock. You are assuming that running causes winning. In fact it is the other way around, winning a game causes more running.

This is of course an over simplification. But there are correlations between increases or decrease in rushing based on game situation that is verifiable.

The point is, that winning teams will run more often to maintain a lead and get the game over with ASAP. Passing gets the lead, and it is passing success that i is correlated with getting a lead, and more highly correlated with winning game. I.E> passing causes winning, and winning causes rushing.
Was going to type something similar. Thank you for beating me to it.
RE: RE: Not drafting well  
Thegratefulhead : 10/15/2020 2:37 pm : link
In comment 15009717 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 15009356 JonC said:


Quote:


not seeing much production from your top 4 overall picks is crucial, and as I warned before UFA started last year, don't be so certain that they'll fix things spending up to the cap. $60M in cap space spent and not much to show for it on the whole.


I have posted many times over the past 2 years how poorly the cap space is used by this FO. I have shown howas much as 95 million just went *POOF* and we had nothing to show for. I predicted the same would happen to this years 60+ million. This FO has no idea how to acquire players and effectively use their cap space. It's disastrous.
The NFL FA kind of sucks. I don't want to over simplify but the players that are allowed to hit FA are there for a reason. They are asking for too much money or have issues. The places we have been deficient don't exactly come at a bargain prices. ER LT CB ect. Many teams need that. We drafted extremely poorly for a long period of time so we always seem to be negotiating from a position of weakness. In my opinion, it is why we have overpaid for FAs. Also, there seems to be a correlation with getting that Giant paycheck and not being as hungry as you were to earn it. We are only getting out of this through the draft and we are not doing that well...
RE: RE: RE: Not drafting well  
LBH15 : 10/15/2020 3:09 pm : link
In comment 15009794 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15009717 .McL. said:


Quote:


In comment 15009356 JonC said:


Quote:


not seeing much production from your top 4 overall picks is crucial, and as I warned before UFA started last year, don't be so certain that they'll fix things spending up to the cap. $60M in cap space spent and not much to show for it on the whole.


I have posted many times over the past 2 years how poorly the cap space is used by this FO. I have shown howas much as 95 million just went *POOF* and we had nothing to show for. I predicted the same would happen to this years 60+ million. This FO has no idea how to acquire players and effectively use their cap space. It's disastrous.

The NFL FA kind of sucks. I don't want to over simplify but the players that are allowed to hit FA are there for a reason. They are asking for too much money or have issues. The places we have been deficient don't exactly come at a bargain prices. ER LT CB ect. Many teams need that. We drafted extremely poorly for a long period of time so we always seem to be negotiating from a position of weakness. In my opinion, it is why we have overpaid for FAs. Also, there seems to be a correlation with getting that Giant paycheck and not being as hungry as you were to earn it. We are only getting out of this through the draft and we are not doing that well...


Very much agree. Doesn't mean you don't ignore free agency as is it there to fix immediate holes and some experienced depth but it should not be part of a longer term plan...that's when you will undoubtedly overpay and/or get underperformance.

If you grab somebody in free agency for reasonable dollars and get reasonable play...pat yourself on the back.
More to the point  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/15/2020 3:41 pm : link
These kinds of roster holes used to be filled in fairly effectively back when it was Accorsi, Reese, and Gettleman in as pro personnel head.

They found gems like Kevin Boothe, Domenik Hixon, Bear Pascoe, and Dave Tollefson who could play roles and be depth players who had slipped through the cracks around the league.

It seems like very few players they bring in have a place on an NFL roster. Its either a success, or the guy is so terrible he doesn't belong on the field. No in-between.

RE: RE: RE: RE: Not drafting well  
.McL. : 10/15/2020 4:27 pm : link
In comment 15009805 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15009794 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15009717 .McL. said:


Quote:


In comment 15009356 JonC said:


Quote:


not seeing much production from your top 4 overall picks is crucial, and as I warned before UFA started last year, don't be so certain that they'll fix things spending up to the cap. $60M in cap space spent and not much to show for it on the whole.


I have posted many times over the past 2 years how poorly the cap space is used by this FO. I have shown howas much as 95 million just went *POOF* and we had nothing to show for. I predicted the same would happen to this years 60+ million. This FO has no idea how to acquire players and effectively use their cap space. It's disastrous.

The NFL FA kind of sucks. I don't want to over simplify but the players that are allowed to hit FA are there for a reason. They are asking for too much money or have issues. The places we have been deficient don't exactly come at a bargain prices. ER LT CB ect. Many teams need that. We drafted extremely poorly for a long period of time so we always seem to be negotiating from a position of weakness. In my opinion, it is why we have overpaid for FAs. Also, there seems to be a correlation with getting that Giant paycheck and not being as hungry as you were to earn it. We are only getting out of this through the draft and we are not doing that well...



Very much agree. Doesn't mean you don't ignore free agency as is it there to fix immediate holes and some experienced depth but it should not be part of a longer term plan...that's when you will undoubtedly overpay and/or get underperformance.

If you grab somebody in free agency for reasonable dollars and get reasonable play...pat yourself on the back.

Of course I agree with both of you...

The thing is, it isn't surprising how this team misuses cap dollars, and FA. It is key to understand what players hit FA. As GratefulHead said, they are usually there for a reason. The teams they come from know them up close. They can scout them better than anybody else. They know better what the player was coached to do, what the play calls were, what the assignments were, what reads should have been etc. If the have a player who is effective, they aren't going to let him hit FA, especially at higher value positions. Which brings me to my next point. This FO has no clue what positional value is or means. So it shouldn't be too surprising that they waste cap dollars on lower value positions, like say run stuffing DLs and MLBs, blocking TEs, slot WR, and lest we not forget RB, etc. OL are all high value positions (whether some on this site want to believe it or not). It is extremely rare that good OL hit FA. When they do its because they are asking for too much money (as TGH said). GMs cannot plan to use FA to find top end players to fill holes at these positions. The only plan to fill them should be through the draft. There are rare occasions where a top end play does become available at a position of need. That should be viewed as luck and taken advantage of opportunistically. Don't plan to build an OL through FA, don't plan to find a QB through FA, don't plan to get a game changing sack artist in FA, don't plan to find a shutdown CB in FA... On the other hand, there are decent players at positions like DL, RB, S, ILB, and to a lesser extent TE, and WR that are available every year. Plus there is depth available. The general plan should be to mostly draft the high value positions, and fill the rest with middle to lower drafts and/or FA. Spend the cap dollars to maintain your core players at key positions, the ones you most likely drafted (if you are drafting well).

Having missed on so many draft picks over the years, guys who didn't warrant a second contract has had the team trolling the FA market and killing themselves. It needs to stop. However the approach to FA shouldn't change just because your team sucks. The approach should remain the same, fill in the lower value positions and depth, and use the draft to start raising the overall tide. Even if that means you don't use all of your cap space.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Not drafting well  
Thegratefulhead : 10/15/2020 4:42 pm : link
In comment 15009889 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 15009805 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 15009794 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15009717 .McL. said:


Quote:


In comment 15009356 JonC said:


Quote:


not seeing much production from your top 4 overall picks is crucial, and as I warned before UFA started last year, don't be so certain that they'll fix things spending up to the cap. $60M in cap space spent and not much to show for it on the whole.


I have posted many times over the past 2 years how poorly the cap space is used by this FO. I have shown howas much as 95 million just went *POOF* and we had nothing to show for. I predicted the same would happen to this years 60+ million. This FO has no idea how to acquire players and effectively use their cap space. It's disastrous.

The NFL FA kind of sucks. I don't want to over simplify but the players that are allowed to hit FA are there for a reason. They are asking for too much money or have issues. The places we have been deficient don't exactly come at a bargain prices. ER LT CB ect. Many teams need that. We drafted extremely poorly for a long period of time so we always seem to be negotiating from a position of weakness. In my opinion, it is why we have overpaid for FAs. Also, there seems to be a correlation with getting that Giant paycheck and not being as hungry as you were to earn it. We are only getting out of this through the draft and we are not doing that well...



Very much agree. Doesn't mean you don't ignore free agency as is it there to fix immediate holes and some experienced depth but it should not be part of a longer term plan...that's when you will undoubtedly overpay and/or get underperformance.

If you grab somebody in free agency for reasonable dollars and get reasonable play...pat yourself on the back.


Of course I agree with both of you...

The thing is, it isn't surprising how this team misuses cap dollars, and FA. It is key to understand what players hit FA. As GratefulHead said, they are usually there for a reason. The teams they come from know them up close. They can scout them better than anybody else. They know better what the player was coached to do, what the play calls were, what the assignments were, what reads should have been etc. If the have a player who is effective, they aren't going to let him hit FA, especially at higher value positions. Which brings me to my next point. This FO has no clue what positional value is or means. So it shouldn't be too surprising that they waste cap dollars on lower value positions, like say run stuffing DLs and MLBs, blocking TEs, slot WR, and lest we not forget RB, etc. OL are all high value positions (whether some on this site want to believe it or not). It is extremely rare that good OL hit FA. When they do its because they are asking for too much money (as TGH said). GMs cannot plan to use FA to find top end players to fill holes at these positions. The only plan to fill them should be through the draft. There are rare occasions where a top end play does become available at a position of need. That should be viewed as luck and taken advantage of opportunistically. Don't plan to build an OL through FA, don't plan to find a QB through FA, don't plan to get a game changing sack artist in FA, don't plan to find a shutdown CB in FA... On the other hand, there are decent players at positions like DL, RB, S, ILB, and to a lesser extent TE, and WR that are available every year. Plus there is depth available. The general plan should be to mostly draft the high value positions, and fill the rest with middle to lower drafts and/or FA. Spend the cap dollars to maintain your core players at key positions, the ones you most likely drafted (if you are drafting well).

Having missed on so many draft picks over the years, guys who didn't warrant a second contract has had the team trolling the FA market and killing themselves. It needs to stop. However the approach to FA shouldn't change just because your team sucks. The approach should remain the same, fill in the lower value positions and depth, and use the draft to start raising the overall tide. Even if that means you don't use all of your cap space.
Yup. :)
Draft  
Dragon : 10/15/2020 5:18 pm : link
Two years in a row one of the best positions in the draft WR and we drafted only 1 and it’s a major team weakness. We bring in UFA, UDFA but we kept journey men players who are showing their true skills. Why is it so hard to just move on from some players when looking at the future. Are our scouts really that bad at identifying talent it looks like it for sure.
All that sounds good in theory  
GManinDC : 10/15/2020 5:21 pm : link
But I keep saying it, you are not talking about one person's vision.

What did we expect when we went from a 4-3 defense to a 3-4? They pared all the players who did not fit, Kennard, Goodson, (nice after 3rd picks, btw), Okwara (UDFA), and JPP. So now you have to rebuild you squad to a 4-3. Did good with the inside but how the hell do yo not get a DE?? Gambled on Golden, who was let go, killed here, and welcomed back with open arms. Gettleman was a genius for that move, remember. What has he done?

You trade your best WR and get back pretty much nothing. I do like Lawrence. And you replace him with a older slot receiver, which duplicated what you had in Shep..

I wish I knew how to post old threads. I would love to see the reaction of posters when Tate was signed!
Good comments Mcl. Specifically to OL, which I agree is becoming  
LBH15 : 10/15/2020 5:27 pm : link
rarer and rarer to find reasonable starter value in the free agent market. I think you can with Centers but opportunities on Guards and Tackles seem to come few and far between, unless you are taking on big injury or age risk.

Relating this back to the Draft and positional value, it just seems Guards and Right Tackles need to be given higher rankings in the tiers than maybe they used to historically. A top prospect at LT to me is still a step above, but the days of passing on an elite Guard (ie, Nelson) or RT just because you are in the upper part of round one is actually a somewhat questionable strategy.
RE: Good comments Mcl. Specifically to OL, which I agree is becoming  
.McL. : 10/15/2020 5:31 pm : link
In comment 15009941 LBH15 said:
Quote:
rarer and rarer to find reasonable starter value in the free agent market. I think you can with Centers but opportunities on Guards and Tackles seem to come few and far between, unless you are taking on big injury or age risk.

Relating this back to the Draft and positional value, it just seems Guards and Right Tackles need to be given higher rankings in the tiers than maybe they used to historically. A top prospect at LT to me is still a step above, but the days of passing on an elite Guard (ie, Nelson) or RT just because you are in the upper part of round one is actually a somewhat questionable strategy.

Agreed, historically it just hasn't been done, but I think that should change. It should still be rare in the top 5, but we should start seeing more G going 6-15 than in the past.
RE: He's not wrong,  
.McL. : 10/15/2020 5:44 pm : link
In comment 15009307 section125 said:
Quote:
But there were/are so many holes on this team, and we all talked about them, that they needed to pick their poison. In fact, there will be 5 or 6 threads today saying how DG effed up on his draft choices and should have gone to different players. It is like paying down debt at home. You only have so much money, you can only pay off a few items.

I wanted to respond to this before, but got an error when I tried to post...

While I agree that the team (any team for that matter) has has limited resources. Given that fact, and the fact that entering the 2018 offseason the team knew the following:
1) It had to replace 80% of the OL, and the only remaining player was being moved in an experiment that was likely to fail, so they needed to plan for 100% turnover on the OL
2) The had other needs on offense at #2WR, RB and eventaully QB
3) The LBs were weak and needed upgrading
4) Most of the bickering was in the secondary, they needed a FS, andt a slot CB, they needed get control of that situation, plan to replace JJ, anf possibly Apple as well.

With all these needs going into that off season, why in gods name would you compund the problem by adding to that list by switching to a 3-4. Now you need to completely retool the DL, dump all your LB (weak as they were) and get a whole new group that had the 3-4 skill sets.

Apparently I'm not smart enough to make any sense of that decision whatsoever.
or what you just said..  
GManinDC : 10/15/2020 5:55 pm : link
...
RE: or what you just said..  
.McL. : 10/15/2020 5:57 pm : link
In comment 15009968 GManinDC said:
Quote:
...

;)
RE: or what you just said..  
.McL. : 10/15/2020 5:58 pm : link
In comment 15009968 GManinDC said:
Quote:
...

Your post reminded me of what I had wanted to post earlier...
Also to add to the OL conversation  
NoGainDayne : 10/15/2020 6:41 pm : link
I don't think lack of precedent or other teams not doing something is a reason to not do it yourself.

Lots of teams passed on lots of players. Groupthink is rampant in the NFL. If anything I think you have more to gain doing things differently than the same. This is true in any business but especially true when there is as much groupthink as in the NFL
RE: Also to add to the OL conversation  
.McL. : 10/15/2020 6:44 pm : link
In comment 15010007 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
I don't think lack of precedent or other teams not doing something is a reason to not do it yourself.

Lots of teams passed on lots of players. Groupthink is rampant in the NFL. If anything I think you have more to gain doing things differently than the same. This is true in any business but especially true when there is as much groupthink as in the NFL

If you do things differently, you better be right!
DG does things differently, that hasn't worked out too well.
Agreed  
NoGainDayne : 10/15/2020 6:57 pm : link
and that's something we certainly fault DG for, breaking from conventional math and being wrong.

That being said, I think the team would have a ton of slack for any attempts to invest more resources in the OL even if it's above where a G investment normally shakes out.

Personally, I don't even understand the idea that draft value is viewed differently than salary cap allocation. To me, if you can take a RB at #2 and teams allocate to G's at a higher rate, and less elite G's hit FA the problem is in the wisdom of taking a G at 2 not that everyone is getting that right.
RE: Agreed  
.McL. : 10/15/2020 7:03 pm : link
In comment 15010020 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
and that's something we certainly fault DG for, breaking from conventional math and being wrong.

That being said, I think the team would have a ton of slack for any attempts to invest more resources in the OL even if it's above where a G investment normally shakes out.

Personally, I don't even understand the idea that draft value is viewed differently than salary cap allocation. To me, if you can take a RB at #2 and teams allocate to G's at a higher rate, and less elite G's hit FA the problem is in the wisdom of taking a G at 2 not that everyone is getting that right.

In general, yes Guards should have more draft value than they are given. I don't think RBs should be taken at #2. Guards are still easier to get than Tackles. And a lot of failed tackles move inside to guard. So that depresses the value of guards a little. So I tend to think guards should only very rarely go top 5, which is infinitely more often than RBs should go in the top 5! ;)
Yeah absolutely  
NoGainDayne : 10/15/2020 7:20 pm : link
I don't think i'd take a running back in the first half of the first round.

G wouldn't be my preference in top 5 but that year, staying at 2 (if I had to) Nelson would have been my guy given the roster the Giants had.

And yeah I'd say a big different with a G is you can get elite ones in the second round and passable starters in later rounds. Even the project tackles with higher upside are for the most part gone by round 4. So total agreement there.


RE: RE: or what you just said..  
GManinDC : 10/15/2020 7:35 pm : link
In comment 15009972 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 15009968 GManinDC said:


Quote:


...


Your post reminded me of what I had wanted to post earlier...


Great minds.

And i don;t want to this to turn into a bash Gettleman thread. Because he is a product of the problem in this organization. It's the committee that is the issue..
RE: RE: RE: or what you just said..  
.McL. : 10/15/2020 7:57 pm : link
In comment 15010048 GManinDC said:
Quote:
In comment 15009972 .McL. said:


Quote:


In comment 15009968 GManinDC said:


Quote:


...


Your post reminded me of what I had wanted to post earlier...



Great minds.

And i don;t want to this to turn into a bash Gettleman thread. Because he is a product of the problem in this organization. It's the committee that is the issue..

I do believe that the organization as a whole is crap and the Maras have much to do with that, the hired DG and I think they meddle in the team building process.

That said. A strong GM should be able to keep the Maras at bay and push his own agenda and not be led by the nose by bafoons. GY and later EA wer able to that with Wellington. Somebody needs to do it with John and Chris.
I should add...  
.McL. : 10/15/2020 7:59 pm : link
That it is entirely possible that the Maras are too afraid of that kind of competence and would never hire such a person. I've seen that play out in business many times.
they are not going to hire an outsider  
GManinDC : 10/15/2020 8:24 pm : link
i think it's gonna be Chris Mara. He holding the same position that Reese had. He's been an scout for years. They are gonna try and sell those credentials..

It's like Jones and Snyder. Mara is the same. He's just been very quiet about it and no ones really has questioned him or others on the Mara's role in football operations..
RE: they are not going to hire an outsider  
.McL. : 10/15/2020 8:46 pm : link
In comment 15010089 GManinDC said:
Quote:
i think it's gonna be Chris Mara. He holding the same position that Reese had. He's been an scout for years. They are gonna try and sell those credentials..

It's like Jones and Snyder. Mara is the same. He's just been very quiet about it and no ones really has questioned him or others on the Mara's role in football operations..

A truly horrifying thought would be that Abrams is made the GM, but in reality it's not Judge getting more power in the personnel decisions, its really Chris. Chris becomes the defact/behind the scenes GM, a position he has always coveted. I hope Tisch pushes back hard on such a scenario.
*defacto*  
.McL. : 10/15/2020 8:47 pm : link
.
Shitty Argument  
WillVAB : 10/15/2020 9:09 pm : link
The Giants suck because they’ve been dogshit in the trenches for a decade. Everything else is window dressing.
I don’t ever see Chris Mara being GM here..  
Sean : 10/15/2020 9:54 pm : link
One thing about John Mara, he’s very aware of fan perception. You can sense it when watching his recent press conferences, he’s referenced it. With that said, I can’t see Chris Mara ever being GM.

I do think being familiar with the way the Giants do business is important. This is why I’d put my money on Abrams getting it.
RE: I don’t ever see Chris Mara being GM here..  
.McL. : 10/15/2020 11:22 pm : link
In comment 15010144 Sean said:
Quote:
One thing about John Mara, he’s very aware of fan perception. You can sense it when watching his recent press conferences, he’s referenced it. With that said, I can’t see Chris Mara ever being GM.

I do think being familiar with the way the Giants do business is important. This is why I’d put my money on Abrams getting it.

No, he won't have the title.
That is why I said defacto...
RE: Hit pause  
giantstock : 10/16/2020 2:31 am : link
In comment 15009483 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
I am there with you on DG as it stands. The season still needs to be played. At the end of the year Thomas could look like the best tackle and DJ might look like our QB for the next ten years. If those two picks hit, we are in a lot better shape. I don't want to put words on this site that embarrass me later. They come back here.

That said, if I were to have to wager at this moment, I would bet that DG will be gone after the season because of a complete and total failure of the team's performance under his leadership.

I think you have to take an orbital view of a GM, because of that, they need time. I feel 3 years is the minimum. When you try to debate an individual move, you can talk your self into it being correct because so much is subjective. It is what gets us into silly arguments. There isn't anything anyone can say to defend DG that can't be laughed at when you use the Giants W/L record to criticize him.


Wins and losses matter. OFC we knew this team was going to stink this year. But in year 3, there is NO WAY NO WAY NO WAY THIS TEAM SHOULD BE THIS BAD.

With that said saying "Fire him NOW" is a lotta noise. However, at the end of the season, many of expect that this team will show that DG was one miserable GM and should be canned unless he retires first.

At week 16 there's more evidence to see. In football many different things can happen.
I'd like to address this quote  
montanagiant : 10/16/2020 2:48 am : link
Quote:
"The NFL is a passing league and you need guys that can run and catch passes, guys that can run and get after the QB, and guys that run and cover the other guy’s fast guys that can run and catch passes. It ain’t rocket science."


Why is the fact that having an O-Line that can pass and run block which is the foremost part of being able to accomplish the rest (minus the pass-rush aspect) ignored?
. . . .  
jeff57 : 10/16/2020 6:02 am : link
Bottom line is that it appears that the Giants blew through something in the area of $60M in cap space and did nothing, or at least almost nothing, to upgrade the pass rush, to fill in the gaps in their coverage units, to improve the speed at the skill positions on offense, or address the big hole at C on the offensive front! In fact, it seems pretty clear that the Giants are worse off in terms of both the talent in the coverage unit as well as the depth at receiver.
RE: . . . .  
SGMen : 10/16/2020 7:35 am : link
In comment 15010209 jeff57 said:
Quote:
Bottom line is that it appears that the Giants blew through something in the area of $60M in cap space and did nothing, or at least almost nothing, to upgrade the pass rush, to fill in the gaps in their coverage units, to improve the speed at the skill positions on offense, or address the big hole at C on the offensive front! In fact, it seems pretty clear that the Giants are worse off in terms of both the talent in the coverage unit as well as the depth at receiver.
I stuck up for DG through this draft and pre-season because I thought many of his mistakes from 2018 were the by-product of ownership giving direcives (Keep Eli, sign marketing magnet OBJ) that end up hurting the team. I understood why we took Barkley: we thought we could stay competitive and he was the best player on the board at #2 despite being a RB.
Now, at 0 -5 and seeing the lack of talent we have, I believe DG will be forced to "retire" at season's end and Abrams will be promoted, retaining Judge and staff.
I am praying right now that "post-bye" we see this team put it together (undersanding the system, developing young players) and Judge is seen as a Respected leader of the future who was hurt by a lack of pre-season and lack of talent.
As a fan, you have to hope that D. Jones shows us he is a true #1. You have to hope the OL gels and we see enough from the youth to believe the 2021 OL may just be:
Thomas-Hernandez-Gates-Lemiuex-Peart cause that would mean the young guys are upgrades.

The purge will happen the day after game 16 and this team will be shaped in the image of Judge & staff. The rebuild will begin in 2021, year one.
RE: He's not wrong,  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/16/2020 7:43 am : link
In comment 15009307 section125 said:
Quote:
But there were/are so many holes on this team, and we all talked about them, that they needed to pick their poison. In fact, there will be 5 or 6 threads today saying how DG effed up on his draft choices and should have gone to different players. It is like paying down debt at home. You only have so much money, you can only pay off a few items.

And just like you would be wise to pay down that debt in a particular sequence to minimize interest and maximize the reach of what you can afford to pay each month, there still are efficiencies to be found in the way you approach your roster construction, and penalties for getting player evaluations way wrong (like missing a payment for your debt analogy).

It's as if DG is trying to use payday loans to cover his previous debt and incurring more debt with steeper interest in the process.
RE: RE: You need guys who can run fast  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/16/2020 7:47 am : link
In comment 15009332 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 15009325 BillT said:


Quote:


If you have big guys who can block for them. We’ve been watching the Giants for the better part of a decade not be able to execute basic blocking assignments and the results of that failure. Eli, DJ, Barkley and whoever we lined up at WR all virtually worthless because we couldn’t block. First things first.

And criticizing the Giants for what they have done in the secondary is a bit strange. If DG has done anything its acquire DBs. Baker, Beal, Peppers,, McKinney, Ballentine, Holmes, Ryan, Love. Lewis. If he’d been as dedicated in acquiring OL we’d be in far better shape I think.



Exactly. And if Baker had turned out even remotely like the player he appeared to be at UGA it would be largely a different narrative and conversation.

Well, that and having to use the #4 pick on Thomas after handing Solder a massive contract, and having to sign Martinez after trading for Ogletree, and trading for Zeitler after signing Omameh. The redundant allocation of finite resources is a good way to preclude yourself from addressing other holes on the roster.
RE: I'd like to address this quote  
LBH15 : 10/16/2020 7:56 am : link
In comment 15010200 montanagiant said:
Quote:


Quote:


"The NFL is a passing league and you need guys that can run and catch passes, guys that can run and get after the QB, and guys that run and cover the other guy’s fast guys that can run and catch passes. It ain’t rocket science."



Why is the fact that having an O-Line that can pass and run block which is the foremost part of being able to accomplish the rest (minus the pass-rush aspect) ignored?


I think it's just assumed teams have a functioning one.

In other words, it's so fundamental its easier than even saying it ain't rocket science.
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