Mr. Lindsay ends his 1,100-word essay with these two sentences:
"The NFL is a passing league and you need guys that can run and catch passes, guys that can run and get after the QB, and guys that run and cover the other guy’s fast guys that can run and catch passes. It ain’t rocket science."
We're talking of course about the Giants here, so keep it civil, eh.
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As for an edge rusher, yes, the Giants brought in Frackrell and no one else. But who was out there to sign and at what price? Clooney? No thanks. Good edge rushers generally do not make it to free agency.
It is a shame that a top OL or ER wasn't on the board at #2 but we instead took Barkley #2. I love Barkley but he is a RB and he was on a team with a bottom 3 OL for the last 3 years. He would have feasted on KC or Pittsburgh who have OL's that move piles and open holes. On the Giants, Barkley rarely had room to get to the line of scrimmage much less bust thru for 50+ as often as he is capable of.
The silver lining is this: we will have a top 2-3 pick this year and my gut tells me that the Giants will trade down as someone will want QB Fields. We won't have the #1 pick cause as bad as we are the Jets are worse and Atlanta is on par with us.
If the Giants "get lucky" and trade down a few spots and acquire a solid starter for Judge & staff, we will be in year 1 of the rebuild. Yes, year 1 because this year is a "learning curve" year due to Corona and what looks like a very average to below average draft.
I for one am not worried about Thomas... YET. He is 21; had a limited off-season to learn; has faced top ER's, and need Columbo to work with him. I get the sense that Thomas is not lazy or uninterested like Flowers was during his horrific tenure with us.
The key is this: get to the bye week as healthy as possible and use that time to look at what little has worked; what young guys need to be promoted even if not totally ready (Peart, Lemiuex, McKinney); and, use Jones to his strengths within the confines of limited talent.
Lets be real: DG is done and a new GM will be promoted (Abrams is my guess, internal move) and a purge of veterans and young guys who don't fit the future will be released or traded.
Solder, Tate, Zeitler will surely be cut.
Golden will not be re-signed.
I'm sure some young guys will surprisingly be released, traded or moved down on the depth chart as camp bodies for 2021.
My "keys" for 2021 is for Judge & staff to be sure that QB Jones is the answer; that we have a young OL with upside Thomas-Hernandez-Gates-Lemiux-Peart; and, the DL is kept as I do believe there is talent there despite our being sometimes blown off the ball.
There is a small core to build around but again the key is the play of Jones and the OL for 2021 as well as the return to health of Barkley who is a physical beast.
Purge. Draft well. UFA's that count signed. Front Office that works in modern era. And ownership that supports the team decisions rather than influencing decisions.
I predict the #3 pick in the draft and a big trade down. Then we MUST hit on the picks.
"And while it certainly isn’t all his fault, in that context, it does seem that it’s time to move on from Dave Gettleman. He was brought in to provide some veteran leadership overseeing the transition from Eli to whatever comes next. He’s done. But he’ll also be 70 by the time the next draft rolls around, isn’t the best of health, and too often seems caught up in a 1980s time warp when it comes to building a successful football team in the 2020s. The NFL is a passing league and you need guys that can run and catch passes, guys that can run and get after the QB, and guys that run and cover the other guy’s fast guys that can run and catch passes. It ain’t rocket science."
"And while it certainly isn’t all his fault, in that context, it does seem that it’s time to move on from Dave Gettleman. He was brought in to provide some veteran leadership overseeing the transition from Eli to whatever comes next. He’s done. But he’ll also be 70 by the time the next draft rolls around, isn’t the best of health, and too often seems caught up in a 1980s time warp when it comes to building a successful football team in the 2020s. The NFL is a passing league and you need guys that can run and catch passes, guys that can run and get after the QB, and guys that run and cover the other guy’s fast guys that can run and catch passes. It ain’t rocket science."
He’s wrong. It’s all Dave’s fault. He’s the worst GM in North American professional sports. We are so lucky to have him....
"And while it certainly isn’t all his fault, in that context, it does seem that it’s time to move on from Dave Gettleman. He was brought in to provide some veteran leadership overseeing the transition from Eli to whatever comes next. He’s done. But he’ll also be 70 by the time the next draft rolls around, isn’t the best of health, and too often seems caught up in a 1980s time warp when it comes to building a successful football team in the 2020s. The NFL is a passing league and you need guys that can run and catch passes, guys that can run and get after the QB, and guys that run and cover the other guy’s fast guys that can run and catch passes. It ain’t rocket science."
Gettleman should be fired immediately. Don’t want him making anymore personnel decisions.
And criticizing the Giants for what they have done in the secondary is a bit strange. If DG has done anything its acquire DBs. Baker, Beal, Peppers,, McKinney, Ballentine, Holmes, Ryan, Love. Lewis. If he’d been as dedicated in acquiring OL we’d be in far better shape I think.
And criticizing the Giants for what they have done in the secondary is a bit strange. If DG has done anything its acquire DBs. Baker, Beal, Peppers,, McKinney, Ballentine, Holmes, Ryan, Love. Lewis. If he’d been as dedicated in acquiring OL we’d be in far better shape I think.
Exactly. And if Baker had turned out even remotely like the player he appeared to be at UGA it would be largely a different narrative and conversation.
And criticizing the Giants for what they have done in the secondary is a bit strange. If DG has done anything its acquire DBs. Baker, Beal, Peppers,, McKinney, Ballentine, Holmes, Ryan, Love. Lewis. If he’d been as dedicated in acquiring OL we’d be in far better shape I think.
In the secondary and on the OL, the criticism is far more on the evaluation side of things and the haphazard manner in which these areas were addressed.
As an example, the team used four picks to draft Baker and Beal and neither are contributing a thing on the field. Their own personal decisions obviously drove that but these two were also negative players on the field when given the chance.
20/20 hindsight for sure, but it wasn't rocket science to see the need for MORE picks, not LESS
20/20 hindsight for sure, but it wasn't rocket science to see the need for MORE picks, not LESS
I subscribe to this thinking as well, particularly for a team in deep need to fill the roster almost everywhere with talent. Blue-chips
Imv, the Giants have been the "Poster-Child" for a team that should have pursued trade down strategies over at least one the last few years if not several. And they also shouldn't be so casual about burning middle round picks so often in acquiring non-difference making talent like Ogletree, Williams and a few others.
We are an example of how not to build/re-build a team.
Having a bunch of fast receivers doesn’t always equate to wins.
Our points differential is worse than theirs.
They've got games against the Chargers and Broncos, which might net them a couple of wins. Not sure where a third victory will come from, however. Maybe, one of the two games against Tampa.
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Trading down to acquire more picks (not trading them or falling in love with a player) might have been a better plan the last few years...
20/20 hindsight for sure, but it wasn't rocket science to see the need for MORE picks, not LESS
I subscribe to this thinking as well, particularly for a team in deep need to fill the roster almost everywhere with talent. Blue-chips
Imv, the Giants have been the "Poster-Child" for a team that should have pursued trade down strategies over at least one the last few years if not several. And they also shouldn't be so casual about burning middle round picks so often in acquiring non-difference making talent like Ogletree, Williams and a few others.
We are an example of how not to build/re-build a team.
Great, we trade down the last few years, giving us more picks. More picks for Gettleman to misevaluate talent?
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In comment 15009339 GiantsRage2007 said:
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Trading down to acquire more picks (not trading them or falling in love with a player) might have been a better plan the last few years...
20/20 hindsight for sure, but it wasn't rocket science to see the need for MORE picks, not LESS
I subscribe to this thinking as well, particularly for a team in deep need to fill the roster almost everywhere with talent. Blue-chips
Imv, the Giants have been the "Poster-Child" for a team that should have pursued trade down strategies over at least one the last few years if not several. And they also shouldn't be so casual about burning middle round picks so often in acquiring non-difference making talent like Ogletree, Williams and a few others.
We are an example of how not to build/re-build a team.
Great, we trade down the last few years, giving us more picks. More picks for Gettleman to misevaluate talent?
LOL yea, well... all the more reason to have someone else in charge of this years draft. Don't let him near this years picks.
I understand your point. But what "items" has he paid off? The only position group you can argue is better than when he took the job is DT- and that is debatable.
He has done a horrible job of bringing in talent. Unless Jones really turns it around and the OLine miraculously improves- what exactly has he built here? And he's had plenty of time...
Think about the massive holes all over the roster and how difficult they will be to fill.
It didn't make sense to keep Gettleman when they fired Shurmur. The way they did it sets up perfectly for the inane 'AKSHULLY this is really just year 1 of the rebuild with the team of Gettleman/Judge rebuild, so he should get more time' refrain.
Which is usually parlayed with some claims that Gettleman has "drafted really well".
All the while, there really isn't any objective evidence that his drafting has been particularly good, or that the arrow is pointing up (save for the fact that it can't point down any further).
They created more holes and did not fill them. That's the issue. We had holes and by going on a culture war, made more holes. Some were very justified and were filled (Logan and Bradberry, ).
The two biggest holes he made and didn't fill is the exact same issues the team has right now. OBJ and JPP were traded and those are crucial positions and they failed to filled them...
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In comment 15009339 GiantsRage2007 said:
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Trading down to acquire more picks (not trading them or falling in love with a player) might have been a better plan the last few years...
20/20 hindsight for sure, but it wasn't rocket science to see the need for MORE picks, not LESS
I subscribe to this thinking as well, particularly for a team in deep need to fill the roster almost everywhere with talent. Blue-chips
Imv, the Giants have been the "Poster-Child" for a team that should have pursued trade down strategies over at least one the last few years if not several. And they also shouldn't be so casual about burning middle round picks so often in acquiring non-difference making talent like Ogletree, Williams and a few others.
We are an example of how not to build/re-build a team.
Great, we trade down the last few years, giving us more picks. More picks for Gettleman to misevaluate talent?
Yeah kind of. I would like at it moreso this way...he has been a disaster in acquiring veteran players and a bit better in the draft so would like to preserve picks for that aspect of the player additions. And also the more the picks, the more chances to get positive hits.
Nothing more.
It is a shame that a top OL or ER wasn't on the board at #2 but we instead took Barkley #2. I love Barkley but he is a RB and he was on a team with a bottom 3 OL for the last 3 years. He would have feasted on KC or Pittsburgh who have OL's that move piles and open holes. On the Giants, Barkley rarely had room to get to the line of scrimmage much less bust thru for 50+ as often as he is capable of.
The silver lining is this: we will have a top 2-3 pick this year and my gut tells me that the Giants will trade down as someone will want QB Fields. We won't have the #1 pick cause as bad as we are the Jets are worse and Atlanta is on par with us.
If the Giants "get lucky" and trade down a few spots and acquire a solid starter for Judge & staff, we will be in year 1 of the rebuild. Yes, year 1 because this year is a "learning curve" year due to Corona and what looks like a very average to below average draft.
I for one am not worried about Thomas... YET. He is 21; had a limited off-season to learn; has faced top ER's, and need Columbo to work with him. I get the sense that Thomas is not lazy or uninterested like Flowers was during his horrific tenure with us.
The key is this: get to the bye week as healthy as possible and use that time to look at what little has worked; what young guys need to be promoted even if not totally ready (Peart, Lemiuex, McKinney); and, use Jones to his strengths within the confines of limited talent.
Lets be real: DG is done and a new GM will be promoted (Abrams is my guess, internal move) and a purge of veterans and young guys who don't fit the future will be released or traded.
Solder, Tate, Zeitler will surely be cut.
Golden will not be re-signed.
I'm sure some young guys will surprisingly be released, traded or moved down on the depth chart as camp bodies for 2021.
My "keys" for 2021 is for Judge & staff to be sure that QB Jones is the answer; that we have a young OL with upside Thomas-Hernandez-Gates-Lemiux-Peart; and, the DL is kept as I do believe there is talent there despite our being sometimes blown off the ball.
There is a small core to build around but again the key is the play of Jones and the OL for 2021 as well as the return to health of Barkley who is a physical beast.
Purge. Draft well. UFA's that count signed. Front Office that works in modern era. And ownership that supports the team decisions rather than influencing decisions.
I predict the #3 pick in the draft and a big trade down. Then we MUST hit on the picks.
You're first paragraph is they were are now and the results of it..
I think gratefuldead said it best, The FO decided to take care of their own in Eli and that was the main issue. Why is this such a surprise to anyone, i still don't understand.
You seen the reaction when he was benched. fans went bananas. The media went al in. And yeah, people said if it was Davis Webb, they would have felt differently. I call BS on that!
We are definitely in agreement with the rebuild timetable
Large quantity, low quality. Baker's gone from the team, Beal has barely played, Ballentine is awful, Peppers is a great return man but a lousy safety, Love has disappointed. Ryan is OK, and we'll see what Holmes and McKinney turn out to be. Overall, I'd say Gettleman's secondary moves have been poor.
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But there were/are so many holes on this team, and we all talked about them, that they needed to pick their poison. In fact, there will be 5 or 6 threads today saying how DG effed up on his draft choices and should have gone to different players. It is like paying down debt at home. You only have so much money, you can only pay off a few items.
They created more holes and did not fill them. That's the issue. We had holes and by going on a culture war, made more holes. Some were very justified and were filled (Logan and Bradberry, ).
The two biggest holes he made and didn't fill is the exact same issues the team has right now. OBJ and JPP were traded and those are crucial positions and they failed to filled them...
That is your opinion. So I guess LT wasn't the biggest hole on the team - the oline wasn't the biggest hole? It absolutely was. Great how people conveniently forget what BBI was bitching about last year. I will grant that WR is a big hole, but so was ILB, OLB, and safety. So what was the bigger hole safety or WR? ILB or WR?
He did sign Fackerell and Carter was actually showing improvement. He did resign Golden....for cheap.
Again, pick your poison.
There are no albatross type contracts that the next GM will inherit next year, there are a lot of young guys on this roster that aren't completely hopeless, I think DG hired a good head coach, and this team is bad enough/had enough bad luck that the new GM might end up with pick #1.
The GM opening for the NYG will be a great spot for someone to come and have a lot success.
And we know it wasn't Jerry,maybe filling in temporarily during the Covid,he's back to shooting squirrels.
That said, if I were to have to wager at this moment, I would bet that DG will be gone after the season because of a complete and total failure of the team's performance under his leadership.
I think you have to take an orbital view of a GM, because of that, they need time. I feel 3 years is the minimum. When you try to debate an individual move, you can talk your self into it being correct because so much is subjective. It is what gets us into silly arguments. There isn't anything anyone can say to defend DG that can't be laughed at when you use the Giants W/L record to criticize him.
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In comment 15009307 section125 said:
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But there were/are so many holes on this team, and we all talked about them, that they needed to pick their poison. In fact, there will be 5 or 6 threads today saying how DG effed up on his draft choices and should have gone to different players. It is like paying down debt at home. You only have so much money, you can only pay off a few items.
They created more holes and did not fill them. That's the issue. We had holes and by going on a culture war, made more holes. Some were very justified and were filled (Logan and Bradberry, ).
The two biggest holes he made and didn't fill is the exact same issues the team has right now. OBJ and JPP were traded and those are crucial positions and they failed to filled them...
That is your opinion. So I guess LT wasn't the biggest hole on the team - the oline wasn't the biggest hole? It absolutely was. Great how people conveniently forget what BBI was bitching about last year. I will grant that WR is a big hole, but so was ILB, OLB, and safety. So what was the bigger hole safety or WR? ILB or WR?
He did sign Fackerell and Carter was actually showing improvement. He did resign Golden....for cheap.
Again, pick your poison.
Just because "BBI" was bitching about it doesn't mean it was right.
So in 3 years, how many to 10 draft picks, FA money, etc, we have the same issues we had 3 years ago.
So you tell me, what is actually fixed?. You have maybe 2 LB's an 2 OL. What else is fixed?
Respectfully disagree. In the 4 games he played he gave up over 75% completion percentage and a passer rating of 115. I guess he had a lot of tackles and a safety, but he wasn't very good in pass coverage.
Beal Game Log - ( New Window )
Bottom line is that it appears that the Giants blew through something in the area of $60M in cap space and did nothing, or at least almost nothing, to upgrade the pass rush, to fill in the gaps in their coverage units, to improve the speed at the skill positions on offense, or address the big hole at C on the offensive front!
Desperately need Thomas to succeed, otherwise it's close to a yes/wasted for me. Martinez and Bradberry are both plus players, but given their respective ages and the current state of the roster, they run the risk of being wasted.
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is it still a wasted offseason? Just checking.
Desperately need Thomas to succeed, otherwise it's close to a yes/wasted for me. Martinez and Bradberry are both plus players, but given their respective ages and the current state of the roster, they run the risk of being wasted.
I stick to my prediction that post-bye we will look much better even if we "struggle" to still score points due to our lack of playmakers. As long as the team understands the system and what Judge wants, and we identify our core for the future, this season won't be a total loss.
It's a speed league and the Giants have been a slow team for years.
Bottom line is that it appears that the Giants blew through something in the area of $60M in cap space and did nothing, or at least almost nothing, to upgrade the pass rush, to fill in the gaps in their coverage units, to improve the speed at the skill positions on offense, or address the big hole at C on the offensive front!
Like someone else said, so Martinez and Bradberry didn't address anything? So moving Gates to C hasn't addressed anything?(yes jury is out on Gates but it sure looks like he is far better than Halapio and Pulley in only 5 games EVER at C) We have not seen McKinney yet. Ryan and Lewis are definite upgrades to what was there.
You cannot fix the entire team in one season.
I just don't get what you expected. Yes Andrew Thomas is having a tough few games. But they are working on his punch and steps. He is bound to get confused in the changes to his technique.
If you don't think ILB is better, IDK what to think.
Bottom line is that it appears that the Giants blew through something in the area of $60M in cap space and did nothing, or at least almost nothing, to upgrade the pass rush, to fill in the gaps in their coverage units, to improve the speed at the skill positions on offense, or address the big hole at C on the offensive front!
But, but Connelly...
Beal opts out, Baker gets arrested. Big losses considering those were projected starters. They trade a pick for Yiadom (who is awful), and pass on Cockrell and Amukamara, who were both available.
Also, come on with gates. Your *intention* was go into a football season with a second year QB who had a lot to prove, and pair him with a center who had barely played in the NFL and never played center before?That was your best hand? Thats the criticism. They didn't even bring in a veteran to compete with. Even if Gates turns out to be good, it still isn't a good plan. How is that putting the offense in position to have success if the interior OL can't block for Jones or Barkley?
Why did they do the smart thing and bring in a veteran backup tackle, but do nothing at all for center?
Its a mixed bag of moves and money wasn't the issue.
Let's cover the bad luck first. The CB situation is a cluster and Baker may have been a player. Beal could have papered it over. Colin doesn't really cover the Logan Ryan acquisition which has helped but DG has been screwed over a bit here.
Actually what really annoys me most though is trading up for Baker and not having extra rolls of the dice. This is where analytics or common sense comes in. I still don't get why DG, a guy I consider to be a good scout did not give himself extra bits at the cherry. You also have to question Baker's character even before the armed robbery. Took plays off.
You do then get onto the really worrying stuff. Levine Toilolo is a great example. Why we're paying good money to a poor one-paced blocking TE when Kaden Smith looked promising last year I just don't get. Wasn't fixing free safety or nickel corner more important? An outside WR maybe?
I also don't get the Connolly thing. He is a quality player and we let him go for Devante Downs. Maybe that's Judge. I dunno but I hate it.
I've been very fair to Gettleman but there's too much to defend. I don't hate on the Barkley or Jones picks although I understand why some do and that's fine but where I do ultimately agree with Colin is I don't get the feeling that we are optimising our assets and that is frustrating.
Having a bunch of fast receivers doesn’t always equate to wins.
You need to understand why and when teams run the ball...
Teams pass early to get a lead, or late to catch up.
Teams with a lead run the ball to run out the clock. You are assuming that running causes winning. In fact it is the other way around, winning a game causes more running.
This is of course an over simplification. But there are correlations between increases or decrease in rushing based on game situation that is verifiable.
The point is, that winning teams will run more often to maintain a lead and get the game over with ASAP. Passing gets the lead, and it is passing success that i is correlated with getting a lead, and more highly correlated with winning game. I.E> passing causes winning, and winning causes rushing.
I have posted many times over the past 2 years how poorly the cap space is used by this FO. I have shown howas much as 95 million just went *POOF* and we had nothing to show for. I predicted the same would happen to this years 60+ million. This FO has no idea how to acquire players and effectively use their cap space. It's disastrous.
Honestly? Yes it is. This team is devoid of talent across the board. You can't fix it all in one offseason but there are some serious holes left.
Bradberry and Martinez are good players. But they also aren't exactly on bargain contracts. I think Gettlemans fate will ultimately come down to how Jones, Thomas and the Oline look the rest of the season. But right now its ugly.
Lastly, don't you expect more of your GM? It doesn't take a genius to pay big money to bring a free agents. And I sure hope he gets a good tackle for picking 4th overall.
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it being a passing league is true. But take a look at the top 10 rushing teams in football every year, especially last year. They make the playoffs like clockwork.
Having a bunch of fast receivers doesn’t always equate to wins.
You need to understand why and when teams run the ball...
Teams pass early to get a lead, or late to catch up.
Teams with a lead run the ball to run out the clock. You are assuming that running causes winning. In fact it is the other way around, winning a game causes more running.
This is of course an over simplification. But there are correlations between increases or decrease in rushing based on game situation that is verifiable.
The point is, that winning teams will run more often to maintain a lead and get the game over with ASAP. Passing gets the lead, and it is passing success that i is correlated with getting a lead, and more highly correlated with winning game. I.E> passing causes winning, and winning causes rushing.
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not seeing much production from your top 4 overall picks is crucial, and as I warned before UFA started last year, don't be so certain that they'll fix things spending up to the cap. $60M in cap space spent and not much to show for it on the whole.
I have posted many times over the past 2 years how poorly the cap space is used by this FO. I have shown howas much as 95 million just went *POOF* and we had nothing to show for. I predicted the same would happen to this years 60+ million. This FO has no idea how to acquire players and effectively use their cap space. It's disastrous.
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In comment 15009356 JonC said:
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not seeing much production from your top 4 overall picks is crucial, and as I warned before UFA started last year, don't be so certain that they'll fix things spending up to the cap. $60M in cap space spent and not much to show for it on the whole.
I have posted many times over the past 2 years how poorly the cap space is used by this FO. I have shown howas much as 95 million just went *POOF* and we had nothing to show for. I predicted the same would happen to this years 60+ million. This FO has no idea how to acquire players and effectively use their cap space. It's disastrous.
The NFL FA kind of sucks. I don't want to over simplify but the players that are allowed to hit FA are there for a reason. They are asking for too much money or have issues. The places we have been deficient don't exactly come at a bargain prices. ER LT CB ect. Many teams need that. We drafted extremely poorly for a long period of time so we always seem to be negotiating from a position of weakness. In my opinion, it is why we have overpaid for FAs. Also, there seems to be a correlation with getting that Giant paycheck and not being as hungry as you were to earn it. We are only getting out of this through the draft and we are not doing that well...
Very much agree. Doesn't mean you don't ignore free agency as is it there to fix immediate holes and some experienced depth but it should not be part of a longer term plan...that's when you will undoubtedly overpay and/or get underperformance.
If you grab somebody in free agency for reasonable dollars and get reasonable play...pat yourself on the back.