That was the word on the street. Gettleman seemed to be enamored with Herbert. I think he went out to Oregon once or twice to watch him play...which is more than he can say about DJ (he only saw DJ at the Senior Bowl)
Cool so he settled with the sixth pick of the draft
the Giants were very high on Herbert, and belief was he would be the pick if the opportunity presented itself.
When it did not, they pivoted to what was effectively their second QB choice. A strategy I did not love, because I believed they'd be drafting high again in 2020, with a good shot at Herbert being there for them.
Pauline's source is prolly the same guy that said McAdoo wanted Mahomes.
Bottom line is the NYG took someone else and you've got to play with the guys you actually drafted - not the guys you kinda, maybe, should have drafted.
but remains to be seen who will be the better NFL QB of the two players. Herbert is doing things now that Jones did as a rookie, let's not forget that. Herbert also hasn't won a game yet, for everyone here that loves to count wins and losses as a measure for young QB growth.
don't wind up getting. How convenient this all being discussed now, despite some prior asshat leaks of the interest, when Hebert is doing well and Jones isn't. DG is on the hotseat and a story breaks how he wanted a currently high-performing QB but missed out...uh huh.
If DG had conviction in Herbert than why not just go with the ER Josh Allen instead of Jones in the 2019 draft, and pursue Herbert the following year? Its not like they weren't paying Eli $20M+ to be on the roster. Or maybe make a deal in 2019 with one of the #1 picks and get yourself set up for 2020 when Hebert does enter the draft?
if Herbert had come out in 2019, he might well have been taken before #6, so we still would have ended up with Jones. The same thing could have easily happened in 2020.
Herbert also could have had a terrible year at Oregon in 2019, or suffered a serious injury.
The decision to draft Jones or any other player should be independent of whether another player who plays their position will be available in a future draft.
but then again - New York Giants GM Dave Gettleman said he and the team fell in "full bloom love" with QB Daniel Jones at the Senior Bowl. Link - ( New Window )
don't wind up getting. How convenient this all being discussed now, despite some prior asshat leaks of the interest, when Hebert is doing well and Jones isn't. DG is on the hotseat and a story breaks how he wanted a currently high-performing QB but missed out...uh huh.
If DG had conviction in Herbert than why not just go with the ER Josh Allen instead of Jones in the 2019 draft, and pursue Herbert the following year? Its not like they weren't paying Eli $20M+ to be on the roster. Or maybe make a deal in 2019 with one of the #1 picks and get yourself set up for 2020 when Hebert does enter the draft?
A big whatever.
Alot can happen in a year. Who saw Joe Burrow rocket like that?
As my friend Dwight says: "if ifs and buts were candies and nuts then every day would be Erntedankfest"
in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
By 2019, it must have been completely clear to DG and the FO that Eli was done. He was completely immobile, and basically needed a clean pocket on every passing play to have any chance of success. They had already cut Webb, and also knew that Lauletta was not going to succeed Eli.
Their choices were Jones, Lock, or Haskins in 2019, or wait until 2020, when no one knew if they would be able or willing to draft Herbert. Burrow was not considered anywhere near a first round pick going into 2019, and because he went #1, we wouldn't have been able to take him anyway. I doubt the Giants had much interest in Tua, Love, Rosen, or Haskins.
The options were therefore either to take Jones or Lock in 2019, or wait until 2020 and hope that they were able and willing to draft Herbert.
The end result is that once Herbert decided to stay in school, either Jones or Lock was going to be a Giant, in that order. Remember that Denver immediately traded its pick as soon as we drafted Jones, and didn't even take Lock until pick #42, despite also having pick #41.
in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
Or instead of letting Manning play out the string and enter the qb bonanza in the 2020 draft. That's what the Chargers did.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Giants wanted Herbert but he
wasn't available to them so they probably figure to wait until 2020 was too much of a gamble. Didn't know obviously their draft slot for 2020 or how high he might go. Also injury possibility factor to consider. I remember many on here liked him but some did not. Giants fell in love with DJ (sarcasm not intended) so they took him.
in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
Do you remember the tenor here 2019 pre-draft? If they did not pick a QB, he would have been blasted (not in the butt) like crazy.
in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
When I finally heard they were probably going QB at #6, it was prefaced with a "how many fans do you think would revolt" if they didn't go QB at #6. It suggested they were well (overly) aware of the optics for picking a QB at #6.
By 2019, it must have been completely clear to DG and the FO that Eli was done. He was completely immobile, and basically needed a clean pocket on every passing play to have any chance of success. They had already cut Webb, and also knew that Lauletta was not going to succeed Eli.
Their choices were Jones, Lock, or Haskins in 2019, or wait until 2020, when no one knew if they would be able or willing to draft Herbert. Burrow was not considered anywhere near a first round pick going into 2019, and because he went #1, we wouldn't have been able to take him anyway. I doubt the Giants had much interest in Tua, Love, Rosen, or Haskins.
The options were therefore either to take Jones or Lock in 2019, or wait until 2020 and hope that they were able and willing to draft Herbert.
The end result is that once Herbert decided to stay in school, either Jones or Lock was going to be a Giant, in that order. Remember that Denver immediately traded its pick as soon as we drafted Jones, and didn't even take Lock until pick #42, despite also having pick #41.
There were several ways to play it other than to reach for a slightly better version of Drew Lock with the 6th pick. Let Manning play out the string and see where you end up in the draft order. (the Chargers plan with Rivers) As it turned out, Herbert was there at pick #6. Or you end up with Burrow or Tua. If one of those wasn't there, you still have your #1 pick, gamble on a guy with huge upside like a Hurts or Love, your qb becomes one of the vets who are always hanging around (like Fitzpatrick or as we did with Kurt Warner and Kerry Collins) and you spend your draft capital on building up the rest of the team.
The way we did it was formulaic (we have to have the qb of the future right now! Quick, draft Eli's successor from the same coach; they'll be the same player!) and a waste of a #6 pick.
in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
Do you remember the tenor here 2019 pre-draft? If they did not pick a QB, he would have been blasted (not in the butt) like crazy.
I think a majority of us wanted and expected the pick to be Josh Allen. DJ at 6 came way out of left field.
Yes, they filled key holes at QB and LT in the past two drafts, but did they actually draft the right players. Did they maximize the value positionally or did they shortchange themselves literally when they could least afford it. Time will tell, but I sure liked the prospect of picking Josh Allen (ER), Dexter Lawrence, and Justin Herbert much better as pillars.
in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
Do you remember the tenor here 2019 pre-draft? If they did not pick a QB, he would have been blasted (not in the butt) like crazy.
I think a majority of us wanted and expected the pick to be Josh Allen. DJ at 6 came way out of left field.
Not only that, but many posters were of the opinion that it was not the draft to get your franchise qb. Most fell in line with the pick once it was made, but I doubt anyone would have screamed over passing on the 2019 class.
in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
Do you remember the tenor here 2019 pre-draft? If they did not pick a QB, he would have been blasted (not in the butt) like crazy.
I think a majority of us wanted and expected the pick to be Josh Allen. DJ at 6 came way out of left field.
Not only that, but many posters were of the opinion that it was not the draft to get your franchise qb. Most fell in line with the pick once it was made, but I doubt anyone would have screamed over passing on the 2019 class.
in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
When I finally heard they were probably going QB at #6, it was prefaced with a "how many fans do you think would revolt" if they didn't go QB at #6. It suggested they were well (overly) aware of the optics for picking a QB at #6.
This is really scary. It seems they are basing their choices on fans feedback.
I'm beginning to think benching Eli was a test balloon..
Sometimes I wish I followed a team like the Steelers or Cowboys, they almost always use their first round picks on the player the fan base is clamoring for. Before Saquon Barkley, the last time the Giants picked the guy I wanted was Kenny Phillips.
That was the word on the street. Gettleman seemed to be enamored with Herbert. I think he went out to Oregon once or twice to watch him play...which is more than he can say about DJ (he only saw DJ at the Senior Bowl)
I know the Giants - like every other team - have their share of misses over the years, but drafting an RB at #2 overall, reaching for Jones and missing out on Chase Young because of a coin flip OT win in Washington in consecutive years has gotten into my head. Becoming more likely that we're gonna land at #2 this year and watch Trevor Lawrence in a Jets uniform for 10+ years, which will be another punch in the gut. Dark times indeed.
drafting Jones should have been off the table. The Giants spent $23M on Eli for four starts and the right to deprive Jones of an off-season of starter's practice reps. Remember then that the narrative was how much Eli could teach Jones. How did that turn out?
The biggest failing of this front office, even worse than talent assessment, has been asset allocation. The decisions have been mystifying:
- Bringing Eli back in 2018
- Signing Beckham and then trading him for less than he could have netted had he been treated a year earlier
- drafting a running back #2 overall
- Bringing Eli back in '19 AND drafting Jones #6 overall
- trading a third rounder for FA-to-be Leonard Williams at 2-6
And each of these moves was accompanied by a dumb-shit soundbyte that became a meme. Dave Gettleman has to be one of the stupidest motherfuckers ever to be an NFL GM.
is better revisited in 2022. We won't know the careers of these guys for another 2 years, let alone now. Herbert looks good right now. I remember this board after the Tampa game last year.
and that they thought Jones was worth the # 6 pick. He hasn't proven that he is not the future of this team. I was watching Bobby Skinner's video ripping the O-Line for mistakes in the Dallas game and in many of those plays, Jones still managed to make a play.
I'd be okay with Shurmur picking a QB. Not a good head coach but he seems very skilled at developing QBs.
Herbert looks really good but when they shut down the run and applied pressure he struggled a bit, just like Jones and he has a better supporting cast.
Jury just getting seated for both QBs, IMO.
A lot of the initial Jones euphoria was based on low expectations.
The supposed draft gurus described Jones as a guy who couldn't throw at the NFL level and would be a mediocre starter, if not a back-up. I was pleasantly surprised to see him slinging it pretty well, even in preseason, but a longer look at him has brought me back down to earth.
you just described how most young QBs develop over the course of their first 2 seasons. It is a ton of up and down. Great games, great flashes, poor throws, poor decisions.
Everyone loves Herbert right now because he looked good in a few games. I also saw him throw one of the worst passes of the season against New Orleans, but somehow all of BBI missed that one.
in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
Do you remember the tenor here 2019 pre-draft? If they did not pick a QB, he would have been blasted (not in the butt) like crazy.
I think a majority of us wanted and expected the pick to be Josh Allen. DJ at 6 came way out of left field.
Not only that, but many posters were of the opinion that it was not the draft to get your franchise qb. Most fell in line with the pick once it was made, but I doubt anyone would have screamed over passing on the 2019 class.
I remember the conversations and I think that there is a lot of revisionism going on here.
you just described how most young QBs develop over the course of their first 2 seasons. It is a ton of up and down. Great games, great flashes, poor throws, poor decisions.
Everyone loves Herbert right now because he looked good in a few games. I also saw him throw one of the worst passes of the season against New Orleans, but somehow all of BBI missed that one.
in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
Do you remember the tenor here 2019 pre-draft? If they did not pick a QB, he would have been blasted (not in the butt) like crazy.
So Giants are picking QBs based on BBI posts? Well, I guess he couldn’t do any worse than we have seen.
By the way not suggesting the panic or reaching for DJ is true but I have read a whole lot of people on here that convinced themselves Gettleman was in full bloom love with DJ, he had conviction in the pick and that other teams were going to scoop him up if NYG didn’t jump on him at #6.
I reluctantly agree. Here’s what bothers me though. Gettleman wasn’t this pathetic in Carolina, so what’s different? The answer I come up with is the organization structure for decision making. Too much input from the Mara’s especially our VP of player personnel. Sadly, this isn’t changing anytime soon.
no question it was, and it suggests then Mara scapegoated McAdoo to curb the outrage.
You know, I gave it thought for awhile and dismissed it after awhile. Didn't think the FO was that shrewd to do something like that. But then it got me to thinking:
Remember the Barry Cofield saga where they kept tagging him for 2 years straight and then let him go. This was after paying him peanuts for about 6 years. I said back then, I know I posted it, that that was a very shrewd move by the FO and it made all the sense in the world.
I am strongly leaking toward that idea now. Mara claimed ignorance of the "whole" part of the bench, IIRC. Use McAdoo and Reese as the scapegoats. Bring in Accorsi to appease ??. Bring in Gettleman to finish the caretaking job of Eli and replace him. He did it in Carolina. Makes sense to me.
Terps— Mcadoo did Mara an incredible solid — he provided evidence Geno Smith and Manning were roughly interchangeable. Instead of accepting that hard truth — he fired everyone else and bent himself in a pretzel to get more miles for his favorite player.
Mara put Manning in front of the team. It was selfish.
And when fans wax on about the virtue of it all, it makes me sick. All those other guys on the team deserved an owner and general management that was dead set on winning another championship. Not deifying a guy who had has turn, made his money, and hung his pelts.
I reluctantly agree. Here’s what bothers me though. Gettleman wasn’t this pathetic in Carolina, so what’s different? The answer I come up with is the organization structure for decision making. Too much input from the Mara’s especially our VP of player personnel. Sadly, this isn’t changing anytime soon.
The Maras were around for Reese too, and while Reese wasn't perfect his tenure want marked by the same string of fireable offenses. I think Gettleman's stupidity and arrogance were a major factor.
Terps— Mcadoo did Mara an incredible solid — he provided evidence Geno Smith and Manning were roughly interchangeable. Instead of accepting that hard truth — he fired everyone else and bent himself in a pretzel to get more miles for his favorite player.
Mara put Manning in front of the team. It was selfish.
And when fans wax on about the virtue of it all, it makes me sick. All those other guys on the team deserved an owner and general management that was dead set on winning another championship. Not deifying a guy who had has turn, made his money, and hung his pelts.
I'm as big an Eli fan as anyone, but this is 100% true.
and that they thought Jones was worth the # 6 pick. He hasn't proven that he is not the future of this team. I was watching Bobby Skinner's video ripping the O-Line for mistakes in the Dallas game and in many of those plays, Jones still managed to make a play.
I'd be okay with Shurmur picking a QB. Not a good head coach but he seems very skilled at developing QBs.
Herbert looks really good but when they shut down the run and applied pressure he struggled a bit, just like Jones and he has a better supporting cast.
I know the Giants - like every other team - have their share of misses over the years, but drafting an RB at #2 overall, reaching for Jones and missing out on Chase Young because of a coin flip OT win in Washington in consecutive years has gotten into my head. Becoming more likely that we're gonna land at #2 this year and watch Trevor Lawrence in a Jets uniform for 10+ years, which will be another punch in the gut. Dark times indeed.
Yup. It's bad either way. Either we reached/settled for DJ, or the FO/ownership is now prepping us for the excuses this offseason.
Don't blame Getts, this was Shurmur's pick; hence, we'll keep Dave around for a while longer because of that... and COVID.
The only good thing out of this is, he's not as stupid as we think, even he sees Herbert is better than DJ... and there's a very super minuscule chance management/ownership moves off DJ, since, as the leaks go, DJ wasn't really Getts' pick.
in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
Do you remember the tenor here 2019 pre-draft? If they did not pick a QB, he would have been blasted (not in the butt) like crazy.
They couldn’t have been blasted worse then when they took Jones at 6.
I think Gettleman was absolutely in "full bloom love" with the guy. He saw Eli 2.0 with the new mobility feature. Let's not be naive here, everyone at Jints Central wanted another Eli.
My speculation is Gettleman needed some cover after the pick because there was such a visceral reaction (at least in some corners). So threw that bullsh-t story out there that he was concerned other teams moving up for DJ. To this day, I don't but that for one second...
This Herbert thing has been out there. Let's give Herbert more time to develop before we call that a potential miss.
The bigger miss was McAdoo's recommendation to draft Mahomes. That was a chance to significantly change the franchise in the most positive way...
is turning out to be somewhat of a nothing burger in retrospect imo. Darnold and Rosen have shown squat and Josh Allen is just too much 20/20 hindsight.
The far bigger problem has been drafting NFL starters, and that's been an issue since 2012.
I think picking Nelson or Chubb would have been the correct answer in 2018, but that would have been a good TEAM move, not just an Eli move. If picking Herbert in 2020 was the best possible scenario, then drafting another position of need at #6 and trotting Eli out for all of 2019 might have ensured that.
drafting Jones should have been off the table. The Giants spent $23M on Eli for four starts and the right to deprive Jones of an off-season of starter's practice reps. Remember then that the narrative was how much Eli could teach Jones. How did that turn out?
The biggest failing of this front office, even worse than talent assessment, has been asset allocation. The decisions have been mystifying:
- Bringing Eli back in 2018
^^^^^^** this x 1000
- Signing Beckham and then trading him for less than he could have netted had he been treated a year earlier
- drafting a running back #2 overall
- Bringing Eli back in '19 AND drafting Jones #6 overall
- trading a third rounder for FA-to-be Leonard Williams at 2-6
And each of these moves was accompanied by a dumb-shit soundbyte that became a meme. Dave Gettleman has to be one of the stupidest motherfuckers ever to be an NFL GM.
And Herbert the next year. Instead we settled at QB and our OT has been uninspiring thus far.
If DG is making the picks next year, God help us.
The QB Josh Allen is most interesting debate for me. That is looking like the real miss - choosing SB over him. Allen is THE TYPE of player, with his size and mobility, who looks to have the ability to overcome more offensive deficiencies than most. He is a real play maker...
All I want to know is will any of this bullshit preclude the NYG from
Welcome to the party 🎉.. This is an organization that is run just like our NFC East rivals Cowboy and WFT
Quote:
I reluctantly agree. Here’s what bothers me though. Gettleman wasn’t this pathetic in Carolina, so what’s different? The answer I come up with is the organization structure for decision making. Too much input from the Mara’s especially our VP of player personnel. Sadly, this isn’t changing anytime soon.
The Maras were around for Reese too, and while Reese wasn't perfect his tenure want marked by the same string of fireable offenses. I think Gettleman's stupidity and arrogance were a major factor.
I wrote that a lot going into the draft because everyone wanted Haskins on this board or at least a majority. Thankfully Haskins never happened as well as Rosen and Darnold from the previous year. Hopefully we keep Judge and at least get some continuity going forward.
During the 2018 season, DG personally attended at least 2 of Herbert's games, and rumors in the press were Herbert was the guy he wanted; which ended when Herbert chose to stay in school for his Senior year.
During the 2018 season, DG personally attended at least 2 of Herbert's games, and rumors in the press were Herbert was the guy he wanted; which ended when Herbert chose to stay in school for his Senior year.
Attending two games does not mean he intended to draft the guy. Maybe he was scouting other players as well. Rumors again?
That was the word on the street. Gettleman seemed to be enamored with Herbert. I think he went out to Oregon once or twice to watch him play...which is more than he can say about DJ (he only saw DJ at the Senior Bowl)
i think giants scouts were at more then 5 games.
The scouts were, sure. I'm talking about Gettleman specifically.
And Herbert the next year. Instead we settled at QB and our OT has been uninspiring thus far.
If DG is making the picks next year, God help us.
The QB Josh Allen is most interesting debate for me. That is looking like the real miss - choosing SB over him. Allen is THE TYPE of player, with his size and mobility, who looks to have the ability to overcome more offensive deficiencies than most. He is a real play maker...
Allen was a risk. I liked him because his arm and legs reminded me of Terry Bradshaw who had some small success in the NFL. Barkley though was a much safer play in terms of boom or bust.
is turning out to be somewhat of a nothing burger in retrospect imo. Darnold and Rosen have shown squat and Josh Allen is just too much 20/20 hindsight.
Josh Allen, who a team traded up to #7 to draft, who was drafted before Rosen, is too much hindsight?
I'd argue the Bills just have a good GM and a good head coach.
RE: The moment they paid Eli's bonus in March 2019,
drafting Jones should have been off the table. The Giants spent $23M on Eli for four starts and the right to deprive Jones of an off-season of starter's practice reps. Remember then that the narrative was how much Eli could teach Jones. How did that turn out?
The biggest failing of this front office, even worse than talent assessment, has been asset allocation. The decisions have been mystifying:
- Bringing Eli back in 2018
- Signing Beckham and then trading him for less than he could have netted had he been treated a year earlier
- drafting a running back #2 overall
- Bringing Eli back in '19 AND drafting Jones #6 overall
- trading a third rounder for FA-to-be Leonard Williams at 2-6
And each of these moves was accompanied by a dumb-shit soundbyte that became a meme. Dave Gettleman has to be one of the stupidest motherfuckers ever to be an NFL GM.
Damn, i cant disagree with one part of this. This sh#t show is mind numbing....
Allen had accuracy issues going back to high school. If he's fixed those in the NFL that is certainly to his credit, but it's also extremely unusual. He also had a bad collarbone injury in college that had to be fixed with plates and screws.
Completely agree that just because no one on BBI was sold
on Josh Allen isn't an excuse for not getting him. If a QB is obvious he doesn't last until pick #7 and you could certainly say they reached and a lot more with Jones at 6 than Allen would have been at 2. There is an argument to be made that you bring in someone like Shurmur primarily to harness the talent of a player like Allen IMO.
Also it can't be said enough about the sound bites the team gives. A lot is made to downplay them. But some of these statements age so poorly so quickly I'm not sure I've seen anything like it in sports. Even just this past offseason, doubling down on Barkley as an "outlier" and Andrew Thomas as the most NFL ready tackle. After making statements that have already reflected so poorly on you in the past you'd think the Giants would be MORE careful with their words.
You hear people saying things like "it's just being cagey or DG plays it up for the media to mess with them" well that isn't really consistent with the way they do things like justify Jones as the pick where they picked him. That isn't very strategic or confident, they are inconsistent and appear more insecure projecting false confidence than anything.
The way they interact with the public makes their decision making process seem incredibly flawed and it just makes them seem really quite dumb. The fact that they can't even see this part and adjust is astounding.
Terps— Mcadoo did Mara an incredible solid — he provided evidence Geno Smith and Manning were roughly interchangeable. Instead of accepting that hard truth — he fired everyone else and bent himself in a pretzel to get more miles for his favorite player.
I'm fine with moving on after 2017 with Eli or whatever but the big difference in the Geno game was all of sudden it seemed as if Engram decided to demonstrate some sort of effort in showing decent hands. A ton of the plays that got the Giants down field were plays made by Shepard or Engram that they weren't making (or dropping) when Eli was playing.
I made mention about the Engram thing even back then and it may be nothing but his rise in effort during that Raider game definitely had me curious.
That game was boring as fuck so I just may be making it up in my head. Geno also coughed up two fumbles in that game.
RE: A lot of the initial Jones euphoria was based on low expectations.
The supposed draft gurus described Jones as a guy who couldn't throw at the NFL level and would be a mediocre starter, if not a back-up. I was pleasantly surprised to see him slinging it pretty well, even in preseason, but a longer look at him has brought me back down to earth.
+1
But I was never worried about his arm, I was worried about his head... I.E. decision making. Shurmur is a QB wisperer and had an offense that minimized these issues. They are back in full force.
RE: Completely agree that just because no one on BBI was sold
on Josh Allen isn't an excuse for not getting him. If a QB is obvious he doesn't last until pick #7 and you could certainly say they reached and a lot more with Jones at 6 than Allen would have been at 2. There is an argument to be made that you bring in someone like Shurmur primarily to harness the talent of a player like Allen IMO.
Also it can't be said enough about the sound bites the team gives. A lot is made to downplay them. But some of these statements age so poorly so quickly I'm not sure I've seen anything like it in sports. Even just this past offseason, doubling down on Barkley as an "outlier" and Andrew Thomas as the most NFL ready tackle. After making statements that have already reflected so poorly on you in the past you'd think the Giants would be MORE careful with their words.
You hear people saying things like "it's just being cagey or DG plays it up for the media to mess with them" well that isn't really consistent with the way they do things like justify Jones as the pick where they picked him. That isn't very strategic or confident, they are inconsistent and appear more insecure projecting false confidence than anything.
The way they interact with the public makes their decision making process seem incredibly flawed and it just makes them seem really quite dumb. The fact that they can't even see this part and adjust is astounding.
Did the Chargers reach for Herbert at 6? That's what the thread is all about and people bitching we didn't wait for him.
I do think the Giants panicked in that draft. Gaming it out they definitely didn't expect Josh Allen to be there, and then they were furiously working the phones to trade up from 17. There's a poster here, not going to out them because they said they shouldn't have divulged the information, that said DJ was definitely the Broncos target. Considering how they acted in that draft I think it's likely that's not bullshit.
and is dedication to football or am I mis-remembering?. I thought there was talk about his family having money and maybe his heart wasn't into football..
and is dedication to football or am I mis-remembering?. I thought there was talk about his family having money and maybe his heart wasn't into football..
Are you talking about Josh Allen the QB? If so I think you are conflating him with the other Josh... Josh Rosen.
and that no one on BBI that I can recall was sold on him but that doesn't mean the Giants couldn't have seen it. Also, per my other point on this, if someone was going to get the most out of Allen's talent it was Shurmur.
There is an argument to be made that you bring in someone like Shurmur primarily to harness the talent of a player like Allen IMO.
I thought once Shurmur was hired it was a clear indication that the Giants would draft a QB at #2. I guess they figured he could revitalize Eli, but QB at #2 would have made more sense.
There is an argument to be made that you bring in someone like Shurmur primarily to harness the talent of a player like Allen IMO.
I thought once Shurmur was hired it was a clear indication that the Giants would draft a QB at #2. I guess they figured he could revitalize Eli, but QB at #2 would have made more sense.
Yeah and I'm by no means saying we should have picked Darnold or Rosen but given the difference in play between Jones with and without Shurmur, I'm wondering if either of those guys would have different career paths under his tutelage.
Rosen is a guy that seemed like the bright lights might have done well for.
The Jets have been a total disaster but Darnold has flashed some talent and his weapons have been absolutely awful.
I have to say an oddity on BBI is the way so many are willing to trash Darnold while preaching patience for Jones. Darnold's main problem is sloppy play and Jones has had bigger problems with this.
DG completely mismanaged the drafts during his tenure. It’s not about picking players in a vacuum, it’s about having a vision for the roster and utilizing the draft to fulfill that vision. Especially so when you’re rebuilding the roster from the ground up.
The priority from day 1 should’ve been making the OL and DL elite units. The OL could’ve been fixed or close in year 1, and the DL Colbert been fixed or close in year 2. By this year, they would’ve had their QB. They would’ve been set up for long term success, only needed complimentary pieces to be a true contender.
There was no cohesive plan to rebuild this roster. Too many blown resources on corners and safeties. The Barkley pick was idiotic given the state of the OL in real time (Solder, Omameh, Flowers) and the trade value of the pick.
3 years in and the OL is still a disaster and not a single pass rusher worth a shit. So much for “run the ball, stop the run, and rush the passer.”
Terps— Mcadoo did Mara an incredible solid — he provided evidence Geno Smith and Manning were roughly interchangeable. Instead of accepting that hard truth — he fired everyone else and bent himself in a pretzel to get more miles for his favorite player.
Mara put Manning in front of the team. It was selfish.
And when fans wax on about the virtue of it all, it makes me sick. All those other guys on the team deserved an owner and general management that was dead set on winning another championship. Not deifying a guy who had has turn, made his money, and hung his pelts.
OK what? I guess in your inverse reality universe Geno Smith losses a game to a very underachieving Raiders team and yet this is evidence that it was Eli's fault the team was 2-10 and that he needed to be retired? Like what?? No, Geno Smith should have won the game to make your point. Jones should be winning games to make your point that it is Eli that is holding team back. If they suck just the same that means it issomething else
Furthermore the fact this is same shit team as last year -- if not worse -- with even shiitier QB play is evidence yet again of the need to replace Manning and even should have done it sooner in your view?
I guess when people have some stupid idea in their head they can twist the logic around in their own universe to confirm their emotions/ beliefs. It is really just familiarity breeding contempt. I am sick of the Eli Manning channel so how about something shiny and new. Never mind that big suit, pat riley hair, totally sucked as a coach. Never mind that Jones hasn't really shown he can be a starting NFL qb not in his rookie year any more, and never mind that this team better hope none of the teams get covid and Sunday's game cancelled; otherwise jones might not throw a TD again for a awhile and the Giants are Washington's only chance at actually winning a game all year. But yeah throw that bum Eli out with no system in place ; shitty over drafted QBs to replace him, and pay him a ton of money to stand on a sideline and watch them lose just the same.
Very disapointed that he stayed in college to play with brother but understandable.
Also wanted Josh Allen.....wanted no part of Haskins. There was too much talent at Ohio St....and at his pro day, being out of shape was a major red flag.
My concern for QB lawrence stems from Clemson being too good. Its men against boys...he seems to have all the tools, but not tested.....
Still holding out hope for Daniel and Thomas....love Barkley and Dexter Lawrence....
Denver and Washington liked Jones a lot. Have to think that either of them take him if we didn't at 6.
Now, remains to be seen if DG made the right choice. But...if we all recall, majority of BBI wanted a quarterback. Lock was high up there on a ton of posters here. It turns out, Jones is a lot farther along right now than Lock is.
Gettleman speaks in April 2019 interview about picking Daniel Jones
"In three years, we'll find out how crazy I am," Gettleman told NBC Sports' Peter King. ... "The bottom line is, I have confidence in what I do and who I am. I've been a part of organizations that had pretty good quarterbacks -- Jim Kelly, John Elway, Kerry Collins, Eli Manning, Cam Newton.
"I've led a charmed life with the quarterbacks on the teams I've worked for. I know what good ones look like. The other thing is, résumés matter. Every once in a while, I wish the people taking the shots would take a minute to look at my résumé. I've been a part of teams that went to seven Super Bowls. I had a hand in some of them. But today, there's no patience. And there's no room for civil discourse in our society, which I find sad."
Denver and Washington liked Jones a lot. Have to think that either of them take him if we didn't at 6.
Now, remains to be seen if DG made the right choice. But...if we all recall, majority of BBI wanted a quarterback. Lock was high up there on a ton of posters here. It turns out, Jones is a lot farther along right now than Lock is.
How is Jones “a lot further along” than Lock? Because he’s played more games?
Lock has actually played no worse than Jones. And with his arm talent, to me, has much more upside.
To this day still one of his more arrogant comments.
Being a scout for the bills while they had Jim Kelly, and inheriting Cam Newton in no way indicates that you get the magic touch with evaluating the hardest position to fill in pro sports. Ernie Accorsi gets to talk like this. Probably not Gettleman.
Denver and Washington liked Jones a lot. Have to think that either of them take him if we didn't at 6.
Now, remains to be seen if DG made the right choice. But...if we all recall, majority of BBI wanted a quarterback. Lock was high up there on a ton of posters here. It turns out, Jones is a lot farther along right now than Lock is.
Yeah, not so fast.
It's also been very widely reported that Haskins was the Washington pick if he was available all along because that is what the Owner demanded.
Also, rumors about Denver and Daniel Jones are very mixed. He had a private workout with Broncos pre-draft but they were also linked a good bit to favoring Drew Lock for their system. Further, other reports indicated they were always very interested in trading down in the draft to get more picks but also because they thought either QB above would still be available later in Rd 1 or possibly Rd 2 if they pulled the trigger on a QB.
RE: To this day still one of his more arrogant comments.
Being a scout for the bills while they had Jim Kelly, and inheriting Cam Newton in no way indicates that you get the magic touch with evaluating the hardest position to fill in pro sports. Ernie Accorsi gets to talk like this. Probably not Gettleman.
I always loved how he went from check out my resume to civil discourse in our society in a few seconds.
It's also been very widely reported that Haskins was the Washington pick if he was available all along because that is what the Owner demanded.
Also, rumors about Denver and Daniel Jones are very mixed. He had a private workout with Broncos pre-draft but they were also linked a good bit to favoring Drew Lock for their system. Further, other reports indicated they were always very interested in trading down in the draft to get more picks but also because they thought either QB above would still be available later in Rd 1 or possibly Rd 2 if they pulled the trigger on a QB.
Peter King was in the Broncos draft room and reported that Lock was Elway's guy. In fact, King had a mock draft prior to the 2018 draft where he predicted the Broncos would trade up to get Lock if he fell in the draft. Do you think King didn't know something? But because so many Gettleman supporters wanted Resume to be right about Jones they drank the Kool Aid when Resume said he knew "for a fact more than one team" wanted Jones.
And Haskins was definitely the WFT pick. Snyder's son played football with Haskins in high school at The Bullis School in Potomac, MD. So there was a deep local tie...
"In three years, we'll find out how crazy I am," Gettleman told NBC Sports' Peter King. ... "The bottom line is, I have confidence in what I do and who I am. I've been a part of organizations that had pretty good quarterbacks -- Jim Kelly, John Elway, Kerry Collins, Eli Manning, Cam Newton.
"I've led a charmed life with the quarterbacks on the teams I've worked for. I know what good ones look like. The other thing is, résumés matter. Every once in a while, I wish the people taking the shots would take a minute to look at my résumé. I've been a part of teams that went to seven Super Bowls. I had a hand in some of them. But today, there's no patience. And there's no room for civil discourse in our society, which I find sad."
Hence, Resume Dave.
I'll never forget reading that. Another gem among many...
It's also been very widely reported that Haskins was the Washington pick if he was available all along because that is what the Owner demanded.
Also, rumors about Denver and Daniel Jones are very mixed. He had a private workout with Broncos pre-draft but they were also linked a good bit to favoring Drew Lock for their system. Further, other reports indicated they were always very interested in trading down in the draft to get more picks but also because they thought either QB above would still be available later in Rd 1 or possibly Rd 2 if they pulled the trigger on a QB.
Peter King was in the Broncos draft room and reported that Lock was Elway's guy. In fact, King had a mock draft prior to the 2018 draft where he predicted the Broncos would trade up to get Lock if he fell in the draft. Do you think King didn't know something? But because so many Gettleman supporters wanted Resume to be right about Jones they drank the Kool Aid when Resume said he knew "for a fact more than one team" wanted Jones.
And Haskins was definitely the WFT pick. Snyder's son played football with Haskins in high school at The Bullis School in Potomac, MD. So there was a deep local tie...
Too many posters here point to fact that Denver traded down right after Jones was picked as confirmation he was there guy.
But reality is Pitt had accumulated a bunch of picks before the draft and wanted to use some of them to move up in Rd 1. And as mentioned, Denver had leaked they could be in favor of a trade down strategy to grab an extra player(s) while expecting a desirable QB to be available later in the draft. The two teams just really accomplished their goals.
Denver and Washington liked Jones a lot. Have to think that either of them take him if we didn't at 6.
Now, remains to be seen if DG made the right choice. But...if we all recall, majority of BBI wanted a quarterback. Lock was high up there on a ton of posters here. It turns out, Jones is a lot farther along right now than Lock is.
Check out the thread on Giants favored for first time. Pete44 made a nice post about Bram Weinstein, who was WFT beat reporter. he said the WFT was never going to draft Jones even though the coaches wanted him..
RE: Gettleman speaks in April 2019 interview about picking Daniel Jones
"In three years, we'll find out how crazy I am," Gettleman told NBC Sports' Peter King. ... "The bottom line is, I have confidence in what I do and who I am. I've been a part of organizations that had pretty good quarterbacks -- Jim Kelly, John Elway, Kerry Collins, Eli Manning, Cam Newton.
"I've led a charmed life with the quarterbacks on the teams I've worked for. I know what good ones look like. The other thing is, résumés matter. Every once in a while, I wish the people taking the shots would take a minute to look at my résumé. I've been a part of teams that went to seven Super Bowls. I had a hand in some of them. But today, there's no patience. And there's no room for civil discourse in our society, which I find sad."
This is such a typical boomer comment lol
RE: Gettleman speaks in April 2019 interview about picking Daniel Jones
"In three years, we'll find out how crazy I am," Gettleman told NBC Sports' Peter King. ... "The bottom line is, I have confidence in what I do and who I am. I've been a part of organizations that had pretty good quarterbacks -- Jim Kelly, John Elway, Kerry Collins, Eli Manning, Cam Newton.
"I've led a charmed life with the quarterbacks on the teams I've worked for. I know what good ones look like. The other thing is, résumés matter. Every once in a while, I wish the people taking the shots would take a minute to look at my résumé. I've been a part of teams that went to seven Super Bowls. I had a hand in some of them. But today, there's no patience. And there's no room for civil discourse in our society, which I find sad."
Damn I had never seen this full quote, only gotten the gist from seeing it referenced, SMH.
It's crazy the extent the Giants are willing to go through the cycle of (picking a player higher than they know the rest of the league is on them, build up these stories trying to justify the reach, not change their scouting department significantly). When the rest of the league proves to do things better than you and you continue to think you have some angle, that's a level of stupidity and arrogance that is baffling.
Check out the thread on Giants favored for first time. Pete44 made a nice post about Bram Weinstein, who was WFT beat reporter. he said the WFT was never going to draft Jones even though the coaches wanted him..
GMan...Snyder was making the pick if Haskins was still on the board. From what I heard, he was elated when the Giants passed on Haskins for Jones.
Terps— Mcadoo did Mara an incredible solid — he provided evidence Geno Smith and Manning were roughly interchangeable. Instead of accepting that hard truth — he fired everyone else and bent himself in a pretzel to get more miles for his favorite player.
Mara put Manning in front of the team. It was selfish.
And when fans wax on about the virtue of it all, it makes me sick. All those other guys on the team deserved an owner and general management that was dead set on winning another championship. Not deifying a guy who had has turn, made his money, and hung his pelts.
I'm as big an Eli fan as anyone, but this is 100% true.
Is it really true ? Reese's jags who are now playing arena league after Gettl cleaned house deserved better ?
We now have Gettl's jags who are similarly bound for arena league but I guess they deserve better too?
But yea I guess since Eli can't take what was a pretty much average to above average roster and put him on his back and win a SB any more that means he is pretty much as useful as Geno Smith ???? um k.
So...you were sure that we'd be in range to pick Herbert before we even played a game of the 2019 season?
When it did not, they pivoted to what was effectively their second QB choice. A strategy I did not love, because I believed they'd be drafting high again in 2020, with a good shot at Herbert being there for them.
Bottom line is the NYG took someone else and you've got to play with the guys you actually drafted - not the guys you kinda, maybe, should have drafted.
He settles for Jones at #6 which looks to be a massive reach?
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before the 2019 draft. Josh Allen (the edge) and go with Eli for one more year. But, after the pick I became a DJ supporter.
So...you were sure that we'd be in range to pick Herbert before we even played a game of the 2019 season?
Yes
What did he say?
hitdog42 : 10/12/2020 10:08 pm : link : reply
Unfortunately we don’t get points for that
He settles for Jones at #6 which looks to be a massive reach?
Could have been worse like taking Haskins, for instance.
At the end of the day, he probably ended up where he was supposed to.
He settles for Jones at #6 which looks to be a massive reach?
Once you realize who the decision belongs to, it makes it very easy to understand.
they scouted him last year again even post jones.
If DG had conviction in Herbert than why not just go with the ER Josh Allen instead of Jones in the 2019 draft, and pursue Herbert the following year? Its not like they weren't paying Eli $20M+ to be on the roster. Or maybe make a deal in 2019 with one of the #1 picks and get yourself set up for 2020 when Hebert does enter the draft?
A big whatever.
Herbert also could have had a terrible year at Oregon in 2019, or suffered a serious injury.
The decision to draft Jones or any other player should be independent of whether another player who plays their position will be available in a future draft.
Link - ( New Window )
If DG had conviction in Herbert than why not just go with the ER Josh Allen instead of Jones in the 2019 draft, and pursue Herbert the following year? Its not like they weren't paying Eli $20M+ to be on the roster. Or maybe make a deal in 2019 with one of the #1 picks and get yourself set up for 2020 when Hebert does enter the draft?
A big whatever.
Alot can happen in a year. Who saw Joe Burrow rocket like that?
As my friend Dwight says: "if ifs and buts were candies and nuts then every day would be Erntedankfest"
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
By 2019, it must have been completely clear to DG and the FO that Eli was done. He was completely immobile, and basically needed a clean pocket on every passing play to have any chance of success. They had already cut Webb, and also knew that Lauletta was not going to succeed Eli.
Their choices were Jones, Lock, or Haskins in 2019, or wait until 2020, when no one knew if they would be able or willing to draft Herbert. Burrow was not considered anywhere near a first round pick going into 2019, and because he went #1, we wouldn't have been able to take him anyway. I doubt the Giants had much interest in Tua, Love, Rosen, or Haskins.
The options were therefore either to take Jones or Lock in 2019, or wait until 2020 and hope that they were able and willing to draft Herbert.
The end result is that once Herbert decided to stay in school, either Jones or Lock was going to be a Giant, in that order. Remember that Denver immediately traded its pick as soon as we drafted Jones, and didn't even take Lock until pick #42, despite also having pick #41.
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in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
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in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
Do you remember the tenor here 2019 pre-draft? If they did not pick a QB, he would have been blasted (not in the butt) like crazy.
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in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
When I finally heard they were probably going QB at #6, it was prefaced with a "how many fans do you think would revolt" if they didn't go QB at #6. It suggested they were well (overly) aware of the optics for picking a QB at #6.
By 2019, it must have been completely clear to DG and the FO that Eli was done. He was completely immobile, and basically needed a clean pocket on every passing play to have any chance of success. They had already cut Webb, and also knew that Lauletta was not going to succeed Eli.
Their choices were Jones, Lock, or Haskins in 2019, or wait until 2020, when no one knew if they would be able or willing to draft Herbert. Burrow was not considered anywhere near a first round pick going into 2019, and because he went #1, we wouldn't have been able to take him anyway. I doubt the Giants had much interest in Tua, Love, Rosen, or Haskins.
The options were therefore either to take Jones or Lock in 2019, or wait until 2020 and hope that they were able and willing to draft Herbert.
The end result is that once Herbert decided to stay in school, either Jones or Lock was going to be a Giant, in that order. Remember that Denver immediately traded its pick as soon as we drafted Jones, and didn't even take Lock until pick #42, despite also having pick #41.
The way we did it was formulaic (we have to have the qb of the future right now! Quick, draft Eli's successor from the same coach; they'll be the same player!) and a waste of a #6 pick.
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In comment 15009618 JonC said:
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in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
Do you remember the tenor here 2019 pre-draft? If they did not pick a QB, he would have been blasted (not in the butt) like crazy.
I think a majority of us wanted and expected the pick to be Josh Allen. DJ at 6 came way out of left field.
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In comment 15009641 Zeke's Alibi said:
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In comment 15009618 JonC said:
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in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
Do you remember the tenor here 2019 pre-draft? If they did not pick a QB, he would have been blasted (not in the butt) like crazy.
I think a majority of us wanted and expected the pick to be Josh Allen. DJ at 6 came way out of left field.
Not only that, but many posters were of the opinion that it was not the draft to get your franchise qb. Most fell in line with the pick once it was made, but I doubt anyone would have screamed over passing on the 2019 class.
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In comment 15009641 Zeke's Alibi said:
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In comment 15009618 JonC said:
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in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
Do you remember the tenor here 2019 pre-draft? If they did not pick a QB, he would have been blasted (not in the butt) like crazy.
I think a majority of us wanted and expected the pick to be Josh Allen. DJ at 6 came way out of left field.
Not only that, but many posters were of the opinion that it was not the draft to get your franchise qb. Most fell in line with the pick once it was made, but I doubt anyone would have screamed over passing on the 2019 class.
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In comment 15009618 JonC said:
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in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
When I finally heard they were probably going QB at #6, it was prefaced with a "how many fans do you think would revolt" if they didn't go QB at #6. It suggested they were well (overly) aware of the optics for picking a QB at #6.
This is really scary. It seems they are basing their choices on fans feedback.
I'm beginning to think benching Eli was a test balloon..
A lot of broken remotes.
The biggest failing of this front office, even worse than talent assessment, has been asset allocation. The decisions have been mystifying:
- Bringing Eli back in 2018
- Signing Beckham and then trading him for less than he could have netted had he been treated a year earlier
- drafting a running back #2 overall
- Bringing Eli back in '19 AND drafting Jones #6 overall
- trading a third rounder for FA-to-be Leonard Williams at 2-6
And each of these moves was accompanied by a dumb-shit soundbyte that became a meme. Dave Gettleman has to be one of the stupidest motherfuckers ever to be an NFL GM.
I'd be okay with Shurmur picking a QB. Not a good head coach but he seems very skilled at developing QBs.
Herbert looks really good but when they shut down the run and applied pressure he struggled a bit, just like Jones and he has a better supporting cast.
Jury just getting seated for both QBs, IMO.
Everyone loves Herbert right now because he looked good in a few games. I also saw him throw one of the worst passes of the season against New Orleans, but somehow all of BBI missed that one.
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In comment 15009652 Bill L said:
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In comment 15009641 Zeke's Alibi said:
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In comment 15009618 JonC said:
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in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
Do you remember the tenor here 2019 pre-draft? If they did not pick a QB, he would have been blasted (not in the butt) like crazy.
I think a majority of us wanted and expected the pick to be Josh Allen. DJ at 6 came way out of left field.
Not only that, but many posters were of the opinion that it was not the draft to get your franchise qb. Most fell in line with the pick once it was made, but I doubt anyone would have screamed over passing on the 2019 class.
I remember the conversations and I think that there is a lot of revisionism going on here.
Everyone loves Herbert right now because he looked good in a few games. I also saw him throw one of the worst passes of the season against New Orleans, but somehow all of BBI missed that one.
This is exactly right.
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In comment 15009618 JonC said:
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in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
Do you remember the tenor here 2019 pre-draft? If they did not pick a QB, he would have been blasted (not in the butt) like crazy.
So Giants are picking QBs based on BBI posts? Well, I guess he couldn’t do any worse than we have seen.
By the way not suggesting the panic or reaching for DJ is true but I have read a whole lot of people on here that convinced themselves Gettleman was in full bloom love with DJ, he had conviction in the pick and that other teams were going to scoop him up if NYG didn’t jump on him at #6.
Just sayin’
You know, I gave it thought for awhile and dismissed it after awhile. Didn't think the FO was that shrewd to do something like that. But then it got me to thinking:
Remember the Barry Cofield saga where they kept tagging him for 2 years straight and then let him go. This was after paying him peanuts for about 6 years. I said back then, I know I posted it, that that was a very shrewd move by the FO and it made all the sense in the world.
I am strongly leaking toward that idea now. Mara claimed ignorance of the "whole" part of the bench, IIRC. Use McAdoo and Reese as the scapegoats. Bring in Accorsi to appease ??. Bring in Gettleman to finish the caretaking job of Eli and replace him. He did it in Carolina. Makes sense to me.
Mara put Manning in front of the team. It was selfish.
And when fans wax on about the virtue of it all, it makes me sick. All those other guys on the team deserved an owner and general management that was dead set on winning another championship. Not deifying a guy who had has turn, made his money, and hung his pelts.
The Maras were around for Reese too, and while Reese wasn't perfect his tenure want marked by the same string of fireable offenses. I think Gettleman's stupidity and arrogance were a major factor.
Mara put Manning in front of the team. It was selfish.
And when fans wax on about the virtue of it all, it makes me sick. All those other guys on the team deserved an owner and general management that was dead set on winning another championship. Not deifying a guy who had has turn, made his money, and hung his pelts.
I'm as big an Eli fan as anyone, but this is 100% true.
I think you had it right. The Eli plan A was close to finished and they wanted a guy to learn with Eli for a year.
I'd be okay with Shurmur picking a QB. Not a good head coach but he seems very skilled at developing QBs.
Herbert looks really good but when they shut down the run and applied pressure he struggled a bit, just like Jones and he has a better supporting cast.
Jury just getting seated for both QBs, IMO.
+1. Excellent analysis.
Yup. It's bad either way. Either we reached/settled for DJ, or the FO/ownership is now prepping us for the excuses this offseason.
Don't blame Getts, this was Shurmur's pick; hence, we'll keep Dave around for a while longer because of that... and COVID.
The only good thing out of this is, he's not as stupid as we think, even he sees Herbert is better than DJ... and there's a very super minuscule chance management/ownership moves off DJ, since, as the leaks go, DJ wasn't really Getts' pick.
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In comment 15009618 JonC said:
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in picking Jones, to my eye. You won't get anyone to admit to it, of course.
Unfortunately I agree with this. Sounds like they talked themselves into a QB. DG knew he wasn’t going anywhere with Eli behind this line. So instead of just sucking and taking our medicine (which as you can tell by BBI would have gone splendidly with the fans) he took the QB at 6 instead of waiting and trying to trade up from 17.
Do you remember the tenor here 2019 pre-draft? If they did not pick a QB, he would have been blasted (not in the butt) like crazy.
They couldn’t have been blasted worse then when they took Jones at 6.
My speculation is Gettleman needed some cover after the pick because there was such a visceral reaction (at least in some corners). So threw that bullsh-t story out there that he was concerned other teams moving up for DJ. To this day, I don't but that for one second...
This Herbert thing has been out there. Let's give Herbert more time to develop before we call that a potential miss.
The bigger miss was McAdoo's recommendation to draft Mahomes. That was a chance to significantly change the franchise in the most positive way...
The far bigger problem has been drafting NFL starters, and that's been an issue since 2012.
I think picking Nelson or Chubb would have been the correct answer in 2018, but that would have been a good TEAM move, not just an Eli move. If picking Herbert in 2020 was the best possible scenario, then drafting another position of need at #6 and trotting Eli out for all of 2019 might have ensured that.
If DG is making the picks next year, God help us.
Wonderful.
The biggest failing of this front office, even worse than talent assessment, has been asset allocation. The decisions have been mystifying:
- Bringing Eli back in 2018
^^^^^^** this x 1000
- Signing Beckham and then trading him for less than he could have netted had he been treated a year earlier
- drafting a running back #2 overall
- Bringing Eli back in '19 AND drafting Jones #6 overall
- trading a third rounder for FA-to-be Leonard Williams at 2-6
And each of these moves was accompanied by a dumb-shit soundbyte that became a meme. Dave Gettleman has to be one of the stupidest motherfuckers ever to be an NFL GM.
If DG is making the picks next year, God help us.
The QB Josh Allen is most interesting debate for me. That is looking like the real miss - choosing SB over him. Allen is THE TYPE of player, with his size and mobility, who looks to have the ability to overcome more offensive deficiencies than most. He is a real play maker...
Fucking Dave....worst GM in all of North American professional sports...
Welcome to the party 🎉.. This is an organization that is run just like our NFC East rivals Cowboy and WFT
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I reluctantly agree. Here’s what bothers me though. Gettleman wasn’t this pathetic in Carolina, so what’s different? The answer I come up with is the organization structure for decision making. Too much input from the Mara’s especially our VP of player personnel. Sadly, this isn’t changing anytime soon.
The Maras were around for Reese too, and while Reese wasn't perfect his tenure want marked by the same string of fireable offenses. I think Gettleman's stupidity and arrogance were a major factor.
Attending two games does not mean he intended to draft the guy. Maybe he was scouting other players as well. Rumors again?
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That was the word on the street. Gettleman seemed to be enamored with Herbert. I think he went out to Oregon once or twice to watch him play...which is more than he can say about DJ (he only saw DJ at the Senior Bowl)
i think giants scouts were at more then 5 games.
The scouts were, sure. I'm talking about Gettleman specifically.
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And Herbert the next year. Instead we settled at QB and our OT has been uninspiring thus far.
If DG is making the picks next year, God help us.
The QB Josh Allen is most interesting debate for me. That is looking like the real miss - choosing SB over him. Allen is THE TYPE of player, with his size and mobility, who looks to have the ability to overcome more offensive deficiencies than most. He is a real play maker...
Josh Allen, who a team traded up to #7 to draft, who was drafted before Rosen, is too much hindsight?
I'd argue the Bills just have a good GM and a good head coach.
The biggest failing of this front office, even worse than talent assessment, has been asset allocation. The decisions have been mystifying:
- Bringing Eli back in 2018
- Signing Beckham and then trading him for less than he could have netted had he been treated a year earlier
- drafting a running back #2 overall
- Bringing Eli back in '19 AND drafting Jones #6 overall
- trading a third rounder for FA-to-be Leonard Williams at 2-6
And each of these moves was accompanied by a dumb-shit soundbyte that became a meme. Dave Gettleman has to be one of the stupidest motherfuckers ever to be an NFL GM.
Damn, i cant disagree with one part of this. This sh#t show is mind numbing....
Lol. Good post.
Also it can't be said enough about the sound bites the team gives. A lot is made to downplay them. But some of these statements age so poorly so quickly I'm not sure I've seen anything like it in sports. Even just this past offseason, doubling down on Barkley as an "outlier" and Andrew Thomas as the most NFL ready tackle. After making statements that have already reflected so poorly on you in the past you'd think the Giants would be MORE careful with their words.
You hear people saying things like "it's just being cagey or DG plays it up for the media to mess with them" well that isn't really consistent with the way they do things like justify Jones as the pick where they picked him. That isn't very strategic or confident, they are inconsistent and appear more insecure projecting false confidence than anything.
The way they interact with the public makes their decision making process seem incredibly flawed and it just makes them seem really quite dumb. The fact that they can't even see this part and adjust is astounding.
I'm fine with moving on after 2017 with Eli or whatever but the big difference in the Geno game was all of sudden it seemed as if Engram decided to demonstrate some sort of effort in showing decent hands. A ton of the plays that got the Giants down field were plays made by Shepard or Engram that they weren't making (or dropping) when Eli was playing.
I made mention about the Engram thing even back then and it may be nothing but his rise in effort during that Raider game definitely had me curious.
That game was boring as fuck so I just may be making it up in my head. Geno also coughed up two fumbles in that game.
+1
But I was never worried about his arm, I was worried about his head... I.E. decision making. Shurmur is a QB wisperer and had an offense that minimized these issues. They are back in full force.
Also it can't be said enough about the sound bites the team gives. A lot is made to downplay them. But some of these statements age so poorly so quickly I'm not sure I've seen anything like it in sports. Even just this past offseason, doubling down on Barkley as an "outlier" and Andrew Thomas as the most NFL ready tackle. After making statements that have already reflected so poorly on you in the past you'd think the Giants would be MORE careful with their words.
You hear people saying things like "it's just being cagey or DG plays it up for the media to mess with them" well that isn't really consistent with the way they do things like justify Jones as the pick where they picked him. That isn't very strategic or confident, they are inconsistent and appear more insecure projecting false confidence than anything.
The way they interact with the public makes their decision making process seem incredibly flawed and it just makes them seem really quite dumb. The fact that they can't even see this part and adjust is astounding.
Did the Chargers reach for Herbert at 6? That's what the thread is all about and people bitching we didn't wait for him.
I do think the Giants panicked in that draft. Gaming it out they definitely didn't expect Josh Allen to be there, and then they were furiously working the phones to trade up from 17. There's a poster here, not going to out them because they said they shouldn't have divulged the information, that said DJ was definitely the Broncos target. Considering how they acted in that draft I think it's likely that's not bullshit.
Are you talking about Josh Allen the QB? If so I think you are conflating him with the other Josh... Josh Rosen.
I thought once Shurmur was hired it was a clear indication that the Giants would draft a QB at #2. I guess they figured he could revitalize Eli, but QB at #2 would have made more sense.
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There is an argument to be made that you bring in someone like Shurmur primarily to harness the talent of a player like Allen IMO.
I thought once Shurmur was hired it was a clear indication that the Giants would draft a QB at #2. I guess they figured he could revitalize Eli, but QB at #2 would have made more sense.
Yeah and I'm by no means saying we should have picked Darnold or Rosen but given the difference in play between Jones with and without Shurmur, I'm wondering if either of those guys would have different career paths under his tutelage.
Rosen is a guy that seemed like the bright lights might have done well for.
The Jets have been a total disaster but Darnold has flashed some talent and his weapons have been absolutely awful.
I have to say an oddity on BBI is the way so many are willing to trash Darnold while preaching patience for Jones. Darnold's main problem is sloppy play and Jones has had bigger problems with this.
The priority from day 1 should’ve been making the OL and DL elite units. The OL could’ve been fixed or close in year 1, and the DL Colbert been fixed or close in year 2. By this year, they would’ve had their QB. They would’ve been set up for long term success, only needed complimentary pieces to be a true contender.
There was no cohesive plan to rebuild this roster. Too many blown resources on corners and safeties. The Barkley pick was idiotic given the state of the OL in real time (Solder, Omameh, Flowers) and the trade value of the pick.
3 years in and the OL is still a disaster and not a single pass rusher worth a shit. So much for “run the ball, stop the run, and rush the passer.”
Mara put Manning in front of the team. It was selfish.
And when fans wax on about the virtue of it all, it makes me sick. All those other guys on the team deserved an owner and general management that was dead set on winning another championship. Not deifying a guy who had has turn, made his money, and hung his pelts.
OK what? I guess in your inverse reality universe Geno Smith losses a game to a very underachieving Raiders team and yet this is evidence that it was Eli's fault the team was 2-10 and that he needed to be retired? Like what?? No, Geno Smith should have won the game to make your point. Jones should be winning games to make your point that it is Eli that is holding team back. If they suck just the same that means it issomething else
Furthermore the fact this is same shit team as last year -- if not worse -- with even shiitier QB play is evidence yet again of the need to replace Manning and even should have done it sooner in your view?
I guess when people have some stupid idea in their head they can twist the logic around in their own universe to confirm their emotions/ beliefs. It is really just familiarity breeding contempt. I am sick of the Eli Manning channel so how about something shiny and new. Never mind that big suit, pat riley hair, totally sucked as a coach. Never mind that Jones hasn't really shown he can be a starting NFL qb not in his rookie year any more, and never mind that this team better hope none of the teams get covid and Sunday's game cancelled; otherwise jones might not throw a TD again for a awhile and the Giants are Washington's only chance at actually winning a game all year. But yeah throw that bum Eli out with no system in place ; shitty over drafted QBs to replace him, and pay him a ton of money to stand on a sideline and watch them lose just the same.
Also wanted Josh Allen.....wanted no part of Haskins. There was too much talent at Ohio St....and at his pro day, being out of shape was a major red flag.
My concern for QB lawrence stems from Clemson being too good. Its men against boys...he seems to have all the tools, but not tested.....
Still holding out hope for Daniel and Thomas....love Barkley and Dexter Lawrence....
Now, remains to be seen if DG made the right choice. But...if we all recall, majority of BBI wanted a quarterback. Lock was high up there on a ton of posters here. It turns out, Jones is a lot farther along right now than Lock is.
"In three years, we'll find out how crazy I am," Gettleman told NBC Sports' Peter King. ... "The bottom line is, I have confidence in what I do and who I am. I've been a part of organizations that had pretty good quarterbacks -- Jim Kelly, John Elway, Kerry Collins, Eli Manning, Cam Newton.
"I've led a charmed life with the quarterbacks on the teams I've worked for. I know what good ones look like. The other thing is, résumés matter. Every once in a while, I wish the people taking the shots would take a minute to look at my résumé. I've been a part of teams that went to seven Super Bowls. I had a hand in some of them. But today, there's no patience. And there's no room for civil discourse in our society, which I find sad."
Now, remains to be seen if DG made the right choice. But...if we all recall, majority of BBI wanted a quarterback. Lock was high up there on a ton of posters here. It turns out, Jones is a lot farther along right now than Lock is.
How is Jones “a lot further along” than Lock? Because he’s played more games?
Lock has actually played no worse than Jones. And with his arm talent, to me, has much more upside.
Now, remains to be seen if DG made the right choice. But...if we all recall, majority of BBI wanted a quarterback. Lock was high up there on a ton of posters here. It turns out, Jones is a lot farther along right now than Lock is.
Yeah, not so fast.
It's also been very widely reported that Haskins was the Washington pick if he was available all along because that is what the Owner demanded.
Also, rumors about Denver and Daniel Jones are very mixed. He had a private workout with Broncos pre-draft but they were also linked a good bit to favoring Drew Lock for their system. Further, other reports indicated they were always very interested in trading down in the draft to get more picks but also because they thought either QB above would still be available later in Rd 1 or possibly Rd 2 if they pulled the trigger on a QB.
I always loved how he went from check out my resume to civil discourse in our society in a few seconds.
Classic.
It's also been very widely reported that Haskins was the Washington pick if he was available all along because that is what the Owner demanded.
Also, rumors about Denver and Daniel Jones are very mixed. He had a private workout with Broncos pre-draft but they were also linked a good bit to favoring Drew Lock for their system. Further, other reports indicated they were always very interested in trading down in the draft to get more picks but also because they thought either QB above would still be available later in Rd 1 or possibly Rd 2 if they pulled the trigger on a QB.
Peter King was in the Broncos draft room and reported that Lock was Elway's guy. In fact, King had a mock draft prior to the 2018 draft where he predicted the Broncos would trade up to get Lock if he fell in the draft. Do you think King didn't know something? But because so many Gettleman supporters wanted Resume to be right about Jones they drank the Kool Aid when Resume said he knew "for a fact more than one team" wanted Jones.
And Haskins was definitely the WFT pick. Snyder's son played football with Haskins in high school at The Bullis School in Potomac, MD. So there was a deep local tie...
"In three years, we'll find out how crazy I am," Gettleman told NBC Sports' Peter King. ... "The bottom line is, I have confidence in what I do and who I am. I've been a part of organizations that had pretty good quarterbacks -- Jim Kelly, John Elway, Kerry Collins, Eli Manning, Cam Newton.
"I've led a charmed life with the quarterbacks on the teams I've worked for. I know what good ones look like. The other thing is, résumés matter. Every once in a while, I wish the people taking the shots would take a minute to look at my résumé. I've been a part of teams that went to seven Super Bowls. I had a hand in some of them. But today, there's no patience. And there's no room for civil discourse in our society, which I find sad."
Hence, Resume Dave.
I'll never forget reading that. Another gem among many...
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It's also been very widely reported that Haskins was the Washington pick if he was available all along because that is what the Owner demanded.
Also, rumors about Denver and Daniel Jones are very mixed. He had a private workout with Broncos pre-draft but they were also linked a good bit to favoring Drew Lock for their system. Further, other reports indicated they were always very interested in trading down in the draft to get more picks but also because they thought either QB above would still be available later in Rd 1 or possibly Rd 2 if they pulled the trigger on a QB.
Peter King was in the Broncos draft room and reported that Lock was Elway's guy. In fact, King had a mock draft prior to the 2018 draft where he predicted the Broncos would trade up to get Lock if he fell in the draft. Do you think King didn't know something? But because so many Gettleman supporters wanted Resume to be right about Jones they drank the Kool Aid when Resume said he knew "for a fact more than one team" wanted Jones.
And Haskins was definitely the WFT pick. Snyder's son played football with Haskins in high school at The Bullis School in Potomac, MD. So there was a deep local tie...
Too many posters here point to fact that Denver traded down right after Jones was picked as confirmation he was there guy.
But reality is Pitt had accumulated a bunch of picks before the draft and wanted to use some of them to move up in Rd 1. And as mentioned, Denver had leaked they could be in favor of a trade down strategy to grab an extra player(s) while expecting a desirable QB to be available later in the draft. The two teams just really accomplished their goals.
I still think they should have drafted him and forced Miami or the Chargers to make an offer
Now, remains to be seen if DG made the right choice. But...if we all recall, majority of BBI wanted a quarterback. Lock was high up there on a ton of posters here. It turns out, Jones is a lot farther along right now than Lock is.
Check out the thread on Giants favored for first time. Pete44 made a nice post about Bram Weinstein, who was WFT beat reporter. he said the WFT was never going to draft Jones even though the coaches wanted him..
"In three years, we'll find out how crazy I am," Gettleman told NBC Sports' Peter King. ... "The bottom line is, I have confidence in what I do and who I am. I've been a part of organizations that had pretty good quarterbacks -- Jim Kelly, John Elway, Kerry Collins, Eli Manning, Cam Newton.
"I've led a charmed life with the quarterbacks on the teams I've worked for. I know what good ones look like. The other thing is, résumés matter. Every once in a while, I wish the people taking the shots would take a minute to look at my résumé. I've been a part of teams that went to seven Super Bowls. I had a hand in some of them. But today, there's no patience. And there's no room for civil discourse in our society, which I find sad."
This is such a typical boomer comment lol
"In three years, we'll find out how crazy I am," Gettleman told NBC Sports' Peter King. ... "The bottom line is, I have confidence in what I do and who I am. I've been a part of organizations that had pretty good quarterbacks -- Jim Kelly, John Elway, Kerry Collins, Eli Manning, Cam Newton.
"I've led a charmed life with the quarterbacks on the teams I've worked for. I know what good ones look like. The other thing is, résumés matter. Every once in a while, I wish the people taking the shots would take a minute to look at my résumé. I've been a part of teams that went to seven Super Bowls. I had a hand in some of them. But today, there's no patience. And there's no room for civil discourse in our society, which I find sad."
Damn I had never seen this full quote, only gotten the gist from seeing it referenced, SMH.
It's crazy the extent the Giants are willing to go through the cycle of (picking a player higher than they know the rest of the league is on them, build up these stories trying to justify the reach, not change their scouting department significantly). When the rest of the league proves to do things better than you and you continue to think you have some angle, that's a level of stupidity and arrogance that is baffling.
Check out the thread on Giants favored for first time. Pete44 made a nice post about Bram Weinstein, who was WFT beat reporter. he said the WFT was never going to draft Jones even though the coaches wanted him..
GMan...Snyder was making the pick if Haskins was still on the board. From what I heard, he was elated when the Giants passed on Haskins for Jones.
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Terps— Mcadoo did Mara an incredible solid — he provided evidence Geno Smith and Manning were roughly interchangeable. Instead of accepting that hard truth — he fired everyone else and bent himself in a pretzel to get more miles for his favorite player.
Mara put Manning in front of the team. It was selfish.
And when fans wax on about the virtue of it all, it makes me sick. All those other guys on the team deserved an owner and general management that was dead set on winning another championship. Not deifying a guy who had has turn, made his money, and hung his pelts.
I'm as big an Eli fan as anyone, but this is 100% true.
Is it really true ? Reese's jags who are now playing arena league after Gettl cleaned house deserved better ?
We now have Gettl's jags who are similarly bound for arena league but I guess they deserve better too?
But yea I guess since Eli can't take what was a pretty much average to above average roster and put him on his back and win a SB any more that means he is pretty much as useful as Geno Smith ???? um k.