So I grew up in the 2000s and 2010s, where the Giants mainly used a 4-3 defense: two DEs, two DTs, three LBs, and four DBs. I had a great time watching the Giants getting after the quarterback with four guys. Then in 2018 we switched to a 3-4 two-gap system which we're still in right now, with more hog mollies on the field. The problem with a 3-4 is that you need more help from your linebackers to get after the quarterback. Why did we switch? To run a 3-4 you need a rushbacker and a SAM to cover the tight end and we still don't have the rushbacker. Simply put, we don't seem any better for switching.
What was Snacks was he a nose tackle. I would guess it was because LT , Carl Banks ; Peppper Johnson, Harry Carson and Gary Reasons retired. And now they have jags like Connelly who are 6th round jags ; oh wait he got cut
To that, I can say I have no clue. seems like one of the dumbest decisions this FO has ever made. Not talked about enough on here, but this may actually have been worse than picking a RB at #2.
Here is what I just posted on another thread
While I agree that the team (any team for that matter) has has limited resources. Given that fact, and the fact that entering the 2018 offseason the team knew the following:
1) It had to replace 80% of the OL, and the only remaining player was being moved in an experiment that was likely to fail, so they needed to plan for 100% turnover on the OL
2) They had other needs on offense at #2WR, RB and eventaully QB
3) The LBs were weak and needed upgrading
4) Most of the bickering was in the secondary, they needed a FS, and a slot CB, they needed get control of that situation, plan to replace JJ, anf possibly Apple as well.
With all these needs going into that off season, why in gods name would you compound the problem and adding to that list by switching to a 3-4. Now you need to completely retool the DL, dump all your LB (weak as they were) and get a whole new group that had the 3-4 skill sets.
Apparently I'm not smart enough to make any sense of that decision whatsoever.
Nowadays the defensive fronts are more hybrid looks combining elements of the 4-3 and 3-4.
Nowadays the defensive fronts are more hybrid looks combining elements of the 4-3 and 3-4.
That's an oversimplification this isn't quite right.
The 3-4 gives you more coverage/pass rushing options by putting another speedy LB on the field in place a big DL guy... You can drop either OLB into coverage or rush either. Move them around, come from more angles, etc. However, by taking a big guy out in favor of a smaller guy, you need your 3 big guys to be even bigger to take on multiple double teams they will now see.
To that, I can say I have no clue. seems like one of the dumbest decisions this FO has ever made. Not talked about enough on here, but this may actually have been worse than picking a RB at #2.
Here is what I just posted on another thread
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While I agree that the team (any team for that matter) has has limited resources. Given that fact, and the fact that entering the 2018 offseason the team knew the following:
1) It had to replace 80% of the OL, and the only remaining player was being moved in an experiment that was likely to fail, so they needed to plan for 100% turnover on the OL
2) They had other needs on offense at #2WR, RB and eventaully QB
3) The LBs were weak and needed upgrading
4) Most of the bickering was in the secondary, they needed a FS, and a slot CB, they needed get control of that situation, plan to replace JJ, anf possibly Apple as well.
With all these needs going into that off season, why in gods name would you compound the problem and adding to that list by switching to a 3-4. Now you need to completely retool the DL, dump all your LB (weak as they were) and get a whole new group that had the 3-4 skill sets.
Apparently I'm not smart enough to make any sense of that decision whatsoever.
A DC can change schemes; the Jets can attest to that since they retained a 3-4 scheme despite hiring Gregg Williams being a 4-3 guy.
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So the obvious follow on question is why did they hire Bettcher a 3-4 DC...
To that, I can say I have no clue. seems like one of the dumbest decisions this FO has ever made. Not talked about enough on here, but this may actually have been worse than picking a RB at #2.
Here is what I just posted on another thread
Quote:
While I agree that the team (any team for that matter) has has limited resources. Given that fact, and the fact that entering the 2018 offseason the team knew the following:
1) It had to replace 80% of the OL, and the only remaining player was being moved in an experiment that was likely to fail, so they needed to plan for 100% turnover on the OL
2) They had other needs on offense at #2WR, RB and eventaully QB
3) The LBs were weak and needed upgrading
4) Most of the bickering was in the secondary, they needed a FS, and a slot CB, they needed get control of that situation, plan to replace JJ, anf possibly Apple as well.
With all these needs going into that off season, why in gods name would you compound the problem and adding to that list by switching to a 3-4. Now you need to completely retool the DL, dump all your LB (weak as they were) and get a whole new group that had the 3-4 skill sets.
Apparently I'm not smart enough to make any sense of that decision whatsoever.
A DC can change schemes; the Jets can attest to that since they retained a 3-4 scheme despite hiring Gregg Williams being a 4-3 guy.
I don't know, they wanted to let Bettcher run his scheme.
Please don't ask me to explain. I can't...
It was tragically incompetent.
Two, you have to stay ahead of the curve. We were running a 4-3 when 4-3 DEs were few and far between. Great edge rushers perfect for a 3-4 were dropping in the draft. Now that we switched there were a lot of teams running a 3-4 so then it became harder to find those guys.
In fact, looking at the stats, they have been pretty incredible against TEs this season. The best game against them was a 3-21 performance by Higbee. They haven’t given up a TD to a TE this season
Two, you have to stay ahead of the curve. We were running a 4-3 when 4-3 DEs were few and far between. Great edge rushers perfect for a 3-4 were dropping in the draft. Now that we switched there were a lot of teams running a 3-4 so then it became harder to find those guys.
Yeah, I heard that a lot. I'm not sure I buy it. Most of these guys can play either 3-4 OLB/Edge or 4-3 DE/Edge. Look at Josh Allen, Brian Burns, etc... Especially with today's hybrids, the difference has been blurred. Which i why we now refer to this type of player as Edge now and not as a OLB or DE...
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But that isn't as popular anymore and not taking the league by storm.
Two, you have to stay ahead of the curve. We were running a 4-3 when 4-3 DEs were few and far between. Great edge rushers perfect for a 3-4 were dropping in the draft. Now that we switched there were a lot of teams running a 3-4 so then it became harder to find those guys.
Yeah, I heard that a lot. I'm not sure I buy it. Most of these guys can play either 3-4 OLB/Edge or 4-3 DE/Edge. Look at Josh Allen, Brian Burns, etc... Especially with today's hybrids, the difference has been blurred. Which i why we now refer to this type of player as Edge now and not as a OLB or DE...
Even JPP. Tampa moved to a 3-4 and he averaged a sack a game last year after recovering from his car accident.
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In comment 15010023 robbieballs2003 said:
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But that isn't as popular anymore and not taking the league by storm.
Two, you have to stay ahead of the curve. We were running a 4-3 when 4-3 DEs were few and far between. Great edge rushers perfect for a 3-4 were dropping in the draft. Now that we switched there were a lot of teams running a 3-4 so then it became harder to find those guys.
Yeah, I heard that a lot. I'm not sure I buy it. Most of these guys can play either 3-4 OLB/Edge or 4-3 DE/Edge. Look at Josh Allen, Brian Burns, etc... Especially with today's hybrids, the difference has been blurred. Which i why we now refer to this type of player as Edge now and not as a OLB or DE...
Even JPP. Tampa moved to a 3-4 and he averaged a sack a game last year after recovering from his car accident.
yep...
The edge guys can play either.
Its the DTs that are generally different.
Joey,
I don't think anybody is questioning the validity of the 3-4 defense. The question is, why did we switch at the time we did. The team had JPP and Vernon to play DE. They had bigger fish to fry at the time. It simply wasn't necessary to do right then and create a bunch of new holes to fill.
Saleh is a hot topic because when the 49ers didn't have Bosa and Ford, they weren't very good. Add those two...
And a fat lot of help it's done us. We're no better.
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hasn't Joe Judge been pretty vocal about how outdated it is to think in terms of 3-4 vs. 4-3? Your defense should be flexible, built to respond to the situation and to the opposition.
And a fat lot of help it's done us. We're no better.
I really find it hard to believe you dont see this defense is better, waay better than last year.
Are people that stupid, or just forgetful?
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In comment 15010133 CT Charlie said:
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hasn't Joe Judge been pretty vocal about how outdated it is to think in terms of 3-4 vs. 4-3? Your defense should be flexible, built to respond to the situation and to the opposition.
And a fat lot of help it's done us. We're no better.
I really find it hard to believe you dont see this defense is better, waay better than last year.
Are people that stupid, or just forgetful?
Lou,
Whether this year's defense is better or not than last year's isn't the question...
The question is why did we tear down the 4-3 we had in 2018 and replace it with a 3-4.
The question underlying the OP, is are we better off now for having done the switch in 2018, compounding the number hole/needs that the team had at a time when there were other issues that 5 alarm fires. They needed to replace all 5 starters on the OL for Christ's sakes.
Given the state of the team at the time, what argument can you make that doing the switch then has made us a better team now. I don't see any argument that can be made for that premise.
The thing is the differences are nuance. Both can be very effective defenses, depending on the players and the DC. In fact both have been gravitating closer to each other schemewise, borrowing from each other and both becoming more multiple. There are some differences that result in different types of players being more suited to one of the other, but either can be effective and many players can thrive in either nowadays.
In other words, I don't think there is not enough of a difference between the 2 to warrant a tear down/rebuild when you have the appropriate players for one you are currently running.
You can argue that players for the other are more available now, and will be for the foreseeable future. That may be an argument for trending in that direction, but it wasn't an immediate burning requirement.
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In comment 15010023 robbieballs2003 said:
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But that isn't as popular anymore and not taking the league by storm.
Two, you have to stay ahead of the curve. We were running a 4-3 when 4-3 DEs were few and far between. Great edge rushers perfect for a 3-4 were dropping in the draft. Now that we switched there were a lot of teams running a 3-4 so then it became harder to find those guys.
Yeah, I heard that a lot. I'm not sure I buy it. Most of these guys can play either 3-4 OLB/Edge or 4-3 DE/Edge. Look at Josh Allen, Brian Burns, etc... Especially with today's hybrids, the difference has been blurred. Which i why we now refer to this type of player as Edge now and not as a OLB or DE...
Even JPP. Tampa moved to a 3-4 and he averaged a sack a game last year after recovering from his car accident.
JPP should have never been traded
So far, for the most part, I've seen considerably superior defensive deployments and strategies.
Both making better use of players like Carter and Leonard Williams, and seemingly far fewer blatant missed coverages than last year.
If your response is meant to go back a few years, Charlie's post wasn't addressing that change, and your response to him badly missed the mark.
Freeing up LT by making him a full time WLB made that defense much more versatile and lethal. He was everywhere. It was like playing with 12 men on D.
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But since you mentioned it in your OP and I continue to see people mentioning the same thing, the Giants have actually been very good against TEs this season. I know people are just used to the old narrative, and there is plenty of other things to complain about, giving up monster games to TEs has not been on that list this season.
In fact, looking at the stats, they have been pretty incredible against TEs this season. The best game against them was a 3-21 performance by Higbee. They haven’t given up a TD to a TE this season
Good post. Have you noticed who is taking on most of the coverage responsibilities this season with TEs?
And I think they believed they had the pieces in NY to run it effectively as well with Damon Harrison playing role of Nose Tackle and younger, more nimble Dalvin Tomlinson playing one of the Defensive Ends. They also felt Vernon would be a good fit to drop in one of the OLB spots.
As an aside, I always thought one of the more interesting flaws in this idea was the signing of Alec Ogletree. The year before he joined the Giants, he was on a Ram defense that had just switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4. And the Rams thought so well of his play (he moved from OLB to MLB) in that scheme that they were willing to ship him off the Giants after signing a big deal.
Nevertheless, was the decision to move to 3-4 any more than noted above?
And I think they believed they had the pieces in NY to run it effectively as well with Damon Harrison playing role of Nose Tackle and younger, more nimble Dalvin Tomlinson playing one of the Defensive Ends. They also felt Vernon would be a good fit to drop in one of the OLB spots.
As an aside, I always thought one of the more interesting flaws in this idea was the signing of Alec Ogletree. The year before he joined the Giants, he was on a Ram defense that had just switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4. And the Rams thought so well of his play (he moved from OLB to MLB) in that scheme that they were willing to ship him off the Giants after signing a big deal.
Nevertheless, was the decision to move to 3-4 any more than noted above?
Yup, I couldn't agree more with you on this.
I hated the Ogletree trade from the start, it made no sense when he had a down year in Wade Phillips system.
And as we have seen first hand, if done correctly, it can really confuse an Offense.
To that, I can say I have no clue. seems like one of the dumbest decisions this FO has ever made. Not talked about enough on here, but this may actually have been worse than picking a RB at #2.
Mcl, I think Joey answered this below. The Giants didn't believe they had their 4-3 end and considered that reconstructing the defense to a new base might logically be better in the long run as Joey highlighted below.
Yes, I think to a good degree. Also because of the hand/injuries and because between the two JPP and Vernon, they thought Vernon would fit the OLB position much better.
I agree about the resources but it's the same as any other skill position. Sometimes you need to pour a bunch of resources into a position In this case, It didn't work out.
I would put that on the FO not Reese. After 2015 nightmare, everyone wanted that defense fixed. I'm guessing there was mandate and it actually worked for a year.
LB - UFAs and trades:
Alec Ogletree
Connor Barwin
Nate Stupar
David Mayo
Markus Golden
Blake Martinez
Kyler Fackrell
LB - Draft picks:
Lorenzo Carter
Oshane Ximines
Ryan Connelly
Cam Brown
Carter Coughlin
T.J. Brunson
Tae Crowder
DL - UFAs and trades:
Josh Mauro
AJ Francis
John Jenkins
Kareem Martin
Robert Thomas
Olsen Pierre
Austin Johnson
Leonard Williams
DL - Draft picks:
B.J. Hill
R.J. McIntosh
Dexter Lawrence
Chris Slayton
As for JPP, I would certainly rather pay him the the sorry lot we brought in.
Let me link this thread on him...
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=601921
LB - UFAs and trades:
Alec Ogletree
Connor Barwin
Nate Stupar
David Mayo
Markus Golden
Blake Martinez
Kyler Fackrell
LB - Draft picks:
Lorenzo Carter
Oshane Ximines
Ryan Connelly
Cam Brown
Carter Coughlin
T.J. Brunson
Tae Crowder
DL - UFAs and trades:
Josh Mauro
AJ Francis
John Jenkins
Kareem Martin
Robert Thomas
Olsen Pierre
Austin Johnson
Leonard Williams
DL - Draft picks:
B.J. Hill
R.J. McIntosh
Dexter Lawrence
Chris Slayton
As for JPP, I would certainly rather pay him the the sorry lot we brought in.
Let me link this thread on him...
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=601921
While that's quite a list of defensive front 7 churn, the idea that any schematic shift created the holes is at the very least highly arguable.
The team hadn't had a highly functional LB corps in YEARS, because Jerry Reese didn't think they were important assets to draft. He also made a tremendous tactical error letting Linval Joseph go and the DT replacements he brought in weren't high level replacements...
Again, this team's largest weaknesses stemmed not only from poor drafting re talent and personality (DaMontre Moore for example) evaluation, they stemmed from the strategic insight error of thinking the game has evolved to basketball on grass.
I think some folks are convinced the game now IS a variant of badketball on grass... Thanks to Andy Reid's success at KC, but ya know, only one team has Patrick Mahomes.
Go examine that Eli Manning has two rings to Aaron Rodgers's solitary one, and reconsider the idea that the game has really evolved into a league wherein passing offense and WR play are the trump cards.
Going to get another cup of coffee now.
Going to get another cup of coffee now.
You're welcome!