So while I was cutting my lawn today, I was thinking about just how devoid of talent this roster is. And then I got to thinking about how much investment they have made in the offensive line with little to no results. I honestly can't remember the last time this team acquired a quality, above average offensive lineman in either the draft or free agency.
Andrew Thomas is obviously a work in progress, and it is far too early to make any determinations about him as a player. With that said, even though he wasn't the consensus OT available, he was clearly a top 10 talent. The returns haven't been there yet, and it is especially frustrating considering they had their pick of any of the top 4 OT's (Becton, Wills, Wirfs) and they decided that Thomas was their guy. At least to this point, he has clearly been the least productive out of the 4.
Obviously, I will reserve judgement on Peart and Lemieux, but I wonder if they would have seen the field by now if they were clearly outperforming the competition in practice.
2019 7th round; George Asafo-Adjei--sustained a concussion towards the end of training camp, and never saw the field.
2018 2nd round; Will Hernandez--started every game since his rookie year, but has not taken that next step. Inconsistent, and below average.
2017 6th round; Adam Bisnowaty--seemingly good value, but only played in 1 game in his career. Waived by the team the year after he was drafted, and was on the roster for 5 other teams before being drafted by an XFL team.
2015 1st round; Ereck Flowers--one of the biggest busts in recent memory. No need to go into detail.
2015 6th round; Bobby Hart--statistically, one of the worst linemen in the league. Somehow still a starter for the Bengals.
2014 2nd round; Weston Richburg--inconsistent. Injury riddled.
2013 1st round; Justin Pugh-- inconsistent. Injury riddled. No true position.
2013 7th round; Eric Herman--0 career starts, 0 games played.
2012 4th round; Brandon Mosley--3 years, 22 games played with only 1 start.
2012 6th round; Matt McCants--limited playing time with the team, but had some moderate success with the Raiders.
2011 4th round; James Brewer--26 games, 8 starts. Great measurables, below average player.
2010 5th round; Mitch Petrus--27 games, 4 starts. Below average player.
2009 2nd round; Will Beatty--89 games, 63 starts. BY FAR the most accomplished lineman on this list. I would classify him as a slightly above average player, and that could be generous.
2007 6th round; Adam Koets--11 games, 0 starts. Forgettable career.
2006 4th round; Guy Whimper--78 games, 24 starts. Moderate success for the Steelers and Jaguars.
Even the free agent signings have been bad. Nate Soldier, Patrick Omameh, Cam Fleming, Mike Remmers, Geoff Schwartz, John Jerry, Marshall Newhouse, JD Walton, Adam Snyder, David Baas
14 years. 15 draft picks. 10 free agents. 1 above average starter: Will Beatty.
Not only is it crazy that they haven’t lucked into at least one productive offensive lineman, but it’s also surprising that none of these players have obtained success any other stops in their careers either.
Everyone always wants to blame the GM, but being that this ineptitude spans 3 general managers: Ernie Accorsi, Jerry Reese, and now Dave Gettleman, could this be a much deeper problem, and a much more difficult problem to fix...what if this is a scouting issue?
Chris Mara, Kevin Abrams, Mark Koncz, Ken Sternfeld, and the scouts are just as much to blame.
Clearly, his best days are behind him. He’s serviceable, but he’s not a difference maker anymore. I’d say he’s an average player at this point in his career.
Hernandez has in my mind been shockingly unpowerful inside many times. Yes, he does get a head of steam and finishes blocks. But he never seems to generate momentum and drive like many thick guards do. There was a play in the Rams game, where he was pulling, he had position and met the DT, but stopped his legs and the DT pushed him back into the runner and the play was dead. I see him not anchoring quite often. Coming out, he was at the very least supposedly good at that. Hasnt been the case.
Richburg was considered the best Center in that draft by many.
Flowers, while over drafted, was looked at very much like a mauler and at the very least a potential RT.
But the premise is mostly right. I would add that we have been prioritizing athlteticism in OL prospects over straight ballers. Like Taylor Decker.
Hernandez has in my mind been shockingly unpowerful inside many times. Yes, he does get a head of steam and finishes blocks. But he never seems to generate momentum and drive like many thick guards do. There was a play in the Rams game, where he was pulling, he had position and met the DT, but stopped his legs and the DT pushed him back into the runner and the play was dead. I see him not anchoring quite often. Coming out, he was at the very least supposedly good at that. Hasnt been the case.
Richburg was considered the best Center in that draft by many.
Flowers, while over drafted, was looked at very much like a mauler and at the very least a potential RT.
But the premise is mostly right. I would add that we have been prioritizing athlteticism in OL prospects over straight ballers. Like Taylor Decker.
the reese years definitely held athletism way higher than actual production some years.
i feel like it only worked out with JPP.
its seemed to go 2 ways, freak athlete but not a football player(think the mcphearson kid)
or productive player with no athleticism(think of the days we kept drafting team captains)
IMO I wouldn't put the Baas signing as a negative for Reese or the Giants. He'd been pretty healthy is whole career before signing with the Giants, if I'm not mistaken.
WTF?
And you mention Guy Whimper as "having some success" with the Steelers?
The Will Hernandez take on this board is ridiculously stupid. Its like all people see are his mistakes, when he has far more good plays than errors.
AND THE KID HAS STARTED AND PLAYED IN EVERY SINGLE GAME OF HIS CAREER, which says a lot for an OL especially, where continuity is Kingly.
Hernandez is nothing like, nor on a par, with the likes of James Brewer and Mitch Petrus, give me a break.
I think this is generational . The game has passed by the Giants . Too many front-office personnel and the scouting staff are trying to find guys who could win you games from decades past . They will tell you that’s bullshit . Football players remain football players . But the record since ‘12 indicates otherwise .
Yes, emphatically , to answer your question . E
He hasn’t played well but by no means is he a bad football player. Let’s remember who’s he’s played with. He’s being asked to anchor the line along with Zietler. I thought big wills had his best game this past Sunday. He’s looked better each week. He’s a mauler in the run game his pass pro
Could use help but again, he’s next to gates and statistically the worst left tackle in the nfl. Will is a keeper. Arrow is pointing up.
Just plain awful results evaluating talent.
But we don’t know if they do...we only hope they do.
Clearly he isn’t James Brewer, or Mitch Petrus, or Brandon Mosley. But he also was picked much higher than those players.
Let’s compare him to another 34th pick overall: Chris Snee.
Snee is the type of value and production I would like to get from a player picked that high at the same position.
I would have hoped that the Hernandez’s production was closer to the only other true offensive guard drafted before him in 2018: Quenton Nelson.
He played so well in 2018 that it is just maddening that his game flattened out, if not regressed the past 1.5 seasons. While I see him as a plus run blocker, Hernandez just appears lazy with his feet a lot of times in pass protection, and even sometimes run plays.
While i understand that an Oline should be judged as a unit since they function as a unit, I think excuses of poor LT and C play around WH is running thin.
He is durable though which is helpful.
For me, other than an obvious mistake, sack, I have no idea how an individual O line is playing
Do you focus on line play during the game, do you rewatch game, do you get the all 22 tape or maybe you played offensively line and it s easier for you.
Serious question not being a wise guy.
For me, other than an obvious mistake, sack, I have no idea how an individual O line is playing
Do you focus on line play during the game, do you rewatch game, do you get the all 22 tape or maybe you played offensively line and it s easier for you.
Serious question not being a wise guy.
Joe - at least for me, i don't focus too much on Giant Oline play during the game. I do generally look to see if line is being pushed back or pushing forward on run plays and if Tackles are holding up on pass plays.
Most of the details on Oline play I watch is that weekly Oline Report video that comes out...Bobby Skinner. He seems to do a reasonably good job of focusing on flaws.
For me, other than an obvious mistake, sack, I have no idea how an individual O line is playing
Do you focus on line play during the game, do you rewatch game, do you get the all 22 tape or maybe you played offensively line and it s easier for you.
Serious question not being a wise guy.
you have to have 22 tape and know what your seeing. even then you have to guess what the scheme on the play was. no one can do it perfect.
But, yeah, overall they have trouble identifying talent.
In 2014, the Cowboys selected future hall of famer Zach Martin with the 16th overall pick. The Giants chose Beckham 4 picks earlier. The year before in 2013, the Giants selected Justin Pugh with the 19th pick. The bears selected pro bowl guard Kyle Long with the next pick.
In 2013, the Cowboys selected all-pro Travis Frederick with the 31st overall pick. In 2014, the Giants chose Weston Richburg with the 43rd overall pick.
This is a major problem that keeps resurfacing.
Those two players arguably outperformed the Giants tackle tandem.
In 2014, the Cowboys selected future hall of famer Zach Martin with the 16th overall pick. The Giants chose Beckham 4 picks earlier. The year before in 2013, the Giants selected Justin Pugh with the 19th pick. The bears selected pro bowl guard Kyle Long with the next pick.
In 2013, the Cowboys selected all-pro Travis Frederick with the 31st overall pick. In 2014, the Giants chose Weston Richburg with the 43rd overall pick.
This is a major problem that keeps resurfacing.
I think we all wanted Martin....
As far as the others mentioned - Peat was deemed to be soft and ended up at guard - how mant times did he threaten to quite? Flowers was regarded as as good if not better prospect.
Richburg was deemed the best center available.
Pugh would likely have been better than Long except for the constant injuries.
So I think it has to do with coaching.
Martin, IMV, was the only true miss as was Nelson, but who picks a guard at #2? I may have...
Is Chris going to fire himself? Anyone else would have been years ago. They’ve been purging some scouts the last year or so, but the basic structure is still in place with no hope for improvement. The only hope for us fans is so many people cancel their season tickets that the stadium will be half full after the pandemic. Maybe the Mara’s will get the message then.
In 2014, the Cowboys selected future hall of famer Zach Martin with the 16th overall pick. The Giants chose Beckham 4 picks earlier. The year before in 2013, the Giants selected Justin Pugh with the 19th pick. The bears selected pro bowl guard Kyle Long with the next pick.
In 2013, the Cowboys selected all-pro Travis Frederick with the 31st overall pick. In 2014, the Giants chose Weston Richburg with the 43rd overall pick.
This is a major problem that keeps resurfacing.
Few here will want to admit it, Vin, but your slate of examples all date from the Jerry Reese - Marc Ross era.
If you start examining the Giants' player acquisitions since DG became GM and Chris Petit head of college scouting (is that his title?) the draft has gone much, much better in terms of talent acquisition, and looking at this year's FA acquisitions that pool looks better too.
You listed a bunch of OL that Reese Ross failed at drafting or acquiring as vets, and then listed Big George and Will Hernandez (and maybe Andrew Thomas?) as examples that is hasn't improved?
That's premature and likely hogwash
Its really still way too early to even compare Gettleman's OL draft picks to Reeses. Because he drafted 3 OL this year I think it's going to be a very good time to compare Reese's and DG's success acquiring OL after the 2022 season has concluded.
But the what have you done for me lately crowd has already spoken... without data or even a chance to analyze it, but this crowd largely wants DG gone.
If the Giants have an above average OL (not a haul of pro bowlers like the Cowboys recently have had) that are playing well together BY THE END OF 2022 with Thomas, Hernandez, Gates, Lemeiux and Peart starting from left to right, then Gettleman will have done an OUTSTANDING job of retooling the Giants' OL - without overly investing high draft picks in the unit considering that group is one high 1st, one high 2nd, one very late 3rd, one high 5th, and one UDFA.
And they can be very good without even one consistent All Pro on the unit, like the 2007 OL.
Are we upset DG didn't get it done sooner? Sure.
But if guys like Carter, Hill, Ximines etc perform, and Carter surely was looking good early this year before his Achille's injury, when should DG have accomplished it?
Hell if Gates looks like simply an AVERAGE OC by this year's end that's a decent feather in DG's cap.
You have to separate the DG and R&R regimes, and need to have a bit more patience with DG.
The scout that brought us DeAndre Baker is gone, rightfully so.