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Does this team have a problem identifying talent?

Vin_Cuccs : 10/17/2020 11:38 pm
So while I was cutting my lawn today, I was thinking about just how devoid of talent this roster is. And then I got to thinking about how much investment they have made in the offensive line with little to no results. I honestly can't remember the last time this team acquired a quality, above average offensive lineman in either the draft or free agency.

Andrew Thomas is obviously a work in progress, and it is far too early to make any determinations about him as a player. With that said, even though he wasn't the consensus OT available, he was clearly a top 10 talent. The returns haven't been there yet, and it is especially frustrating considering they had their pick of any of the top 4 OT's (Becton, Wills, Wirfs) and they decided that Thomas was their guy. At least to this point, he has clearly been the least productive out of the 4.

Obviously, I will reserve judgement on Peart and Lemieux, but I wonder if they would have seen the field by now if they were clearly outperforming the competition in practice.

2019 7th round; George Asafo-Adjei--sustained a concussion towards the end of training camp, and never saw the field.

2018 2nd round; Will Hernandez--started every game since his rookie year, but has not taken that next step. Inconsistent, and below average.

2017 6th round; Adam Bisnowaty--seemingly good value, but only played in 1 game in his career. Waived by the team the year after he was drafted, and was on the roster for 5 other teams before being drafted by an XFL team.

2015 1st round; Ereck Flowers--one of the biggest busts in recent memory. No need to go into detail.

2015 6th round; Bobby Hart--statistically, one of the worst linemen in the league. Somehow still a starter for the Bengals.

2014 2nd round; Weston Richburg--inconsistent. Injury riddled.

2013 1st round; Justin Pugh-- inconsistent. Injury riddled. No true position.

2013 7th round; Eric Herman--0 career starts, 0 games played.

2012 4th round; Brandon Mosley--3 years, 22 games played with only 1 start.

2012 6th round; Matt McCants--limited playing time with the team, but had some moderate success with the Raiders.

2011 4th round; James Brewer--26 games, 8 starts. Great measurables, below average player.

2010 5th round; Mitch Petrus--27 games, 4 starts. Below average player.

2009 2nd round; Will Beatty--89 games, 63 starts. BY FAR the most accomplished lineman on this list. I would classify him as a slightly above average player, and that could be generous.

2007 6th round; Adam Koets--11 games, 0 starts. Forgettable career.

2006 4th round; Guy Whimper--78 games, 24 starts. Moderate success for the Steelers and Jaguars.

Even the free agent signings have been bad. Nate Soldier, Patrick Omameh, Cam Fleming, Mike Remmers, Geoff Schwartz, John Jerry, Marshall Newhouse, JD Walton, Adam Snyder, David Baas

14 years. 15 draft picks. 10 free agents. 1 above average starter: Will Beatty.

Not only is it crazy that they haven’t lucked into at least one productive offensive lineman, but it’s also surprising that none of these players have obtained success any other stops in their careers either.

Everyone always wants to blame the GM, but being that this ineptitude spans 3 general managers: Ernie Accorsi, Jerry Reese, and now Dave Gettleman, could this be a much deeper problem, and a much more difficult problem to fix...what if this is a scouting issue?

Chris Mara, Kevin Abrams, Mark Koncz, Ken Sternfeld, and the scouts are just as much to blame.
I don't blame scouts for lousy choices of veteran players  
Marty in Albany : 10/17/2020 11:46 pm : link
but I have no problem blaming scouts for bad rookie acquisitions.
Haven't we generally had the same scouts forever?  
BH28 : 10/17/2020 11:48 pm : link
If so, the downfall was when DG left first time and Ross and then Mara took over.
Vin what’s your take  
FranknWeezer : 10/17/2020 11:52 pm : link
on Zeitler?
RE: Vin what’s your take  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/18/2020 12:02 am : link
In comment 15011403 FranknWeezer said:
Quote:
on Zeitler?


Clearly, his best days are behind him. He’s serviceable, but he’s not a difference maker anymore. I’d say he’s an average player at this point in his career.
Kind of odd to include Accorsi's last year  
widmerseyebrow : 10/18/2020 12:14 am : link
And then say the problem spans 3 GMs. He got us Diehl, Snee, Ohara, Seubert, and KMac.
I said on another thread a couple  
.McL. : 10/18/2020 1:05 am : link
of days ago that I thought there was something rotten in the scouting dept. Rotten beyond the fools at the top. The who FO along with a large percentage of the scouts need to be cleaned out.
I would say Hernandez and Richburg  
chopperhatch : 10/18/2020 1:45 am : link
Were surprise misses many teams would have made.

Hernandez has in my mind been shockingly unpowerful inside many times. Yes, he does get a head of steam and finishes blocks. But he never seems to generate momentum and drive like many thick guards do. There was a play in the Rams game, where he was pulling, he had position and met the DT, but stopped his legs and the DT pushed him back into the runner and the play was dead. I see him not anchoring quite often. Coming out, he was at the very least supposedly good at that. Hasnt been the case.

Richburg was considered the best Center in that draft by many.

Flowers, while over drafted, was looked at very much like a mauler and at the very least a potential RT.

But the premise is mostly right. I would add that we have been prioritizing athlteticism in OL prospects over straight ballers. Like Taylor Decker.
RE: I would say Hernandez and Richburg  
Platos : 10/18/2020 1:59 am : link
In comment 15011426 chopperhatch said:
Quote:
Were surprise misses many teams would have made.

Hernandez has in my mind been shockingly unpowerful inside many times. Yes, he does get a head of steam and finishes blocks. But he never seems to generate momentum and drive like many thick guards do. There was a play in the Rams game, where he was pulling, he had position and met the DT, but stopped his legs and the DT pushed him back into the runner and the play was dead. I see him not anchoring quite often. Coming out, he was at the very least supposedly good at that. Hasnt been the case.

Richburg was considered the best Center in that draft by many.

Flowers, while over drafted, was looked at very much like a mauler and at the very least a potential RT.

But the premise is mostly right. I would add that we have been prioritizing athlteticism in OL prospects over straight ballers. Like Taylor Decker.


the reese years definitely held athletism way higher than actual production some years.

i feel like it only worked out with JPP.

its seemed to go 2 ways, freak athlete but not a football player(think the mcphearson kid)

or productive player with no athleticism(think of the days we kept drafting team captains)
The team has no direction  
JoeyBigBlue : 10/18/2020 1:59 am : link
There’s no philosophy on what they want to do? They don’t want Massive O-Lineman, do they want to zone block, do they want interior linemen that can pull? Until you can answer those questions, you can scout guys that have the traits you are looking for within your scheme.
I agree with everything you said, except Baas...  
sb from NYT Forum : 10/18/2020 2:01 am : link
...once he got healthy at the end of 2011 the Giants were rolling. He was a big part of the playoff run and Super Bowl win, IMO.

IMO I wouldn't put the Baas signing as a negative for Reese or the Giants. He'd been pretty healthy is whole career before signing with the Giants, if I'm not mistaken.
Does this team have a problem identifying talent?  
Spider43 : 10/18/2020 5:50 am : link
Is the Pope Catholic?
Vin your scale or observations are just off, way off!  
BlueLou'sBack : 10/18/2020 6:00 am : link
On what planet did you come with the same rating of "below average" for Will Hernandez, James Brewer, and Mitch Petrus???

WTF?

And you mention Guy Whimper as "having some success" with the Steelers?

The Will Hernandez take on this board is ridiculously stupid. Its like all people see are his mistakes, when he has far more good plays than errors.

AND THE KID HAS STARTED AND PLAYED IN EVERY SINGLE GAME OF HIS CAREER, which says a lot for an OL especially, where continuity is Kingly.

Hernandez is nothing like, nor on a par, with the likes of James Brewer and Mitch Petrus, give me a break.
It is amazing what you start to think about...  
EricJ : 10/18/2020 6:41 am : link
when you are cutting the lawn...
Another way of looking at this  
RetroJint : 10/18/2020 6:43 am : link
Who are the current roster are currently out-performing their salary-cap number ? I get Slayton and Fackrell . Whatever talent is on the roster -and there is talent -Gettleman has had to bleed through the eyeballs to acquire . Contrast with a team like the Eagles , who are always coming up with these “Who am I?” players that leave you scurrying to an online swatch to figure out where they came from .

I think this is generational . The game has passed by the Giants . Too many front-office personnel and the scouting staff are trying to find guys who could win you games from decades past . They will tell you that’s bullshit . Football players remain football players . But the record since ‘12 indicates otherwise .

Yes, emphatically , to answer your question . E
Blue Lou  
Tuckrule : 10/18/2020 7:09 am : link
I’m with you. It’s like a few “respected” posters have the same view of will and now all of a sudden he’s terrible.

He hasn’t played well but by no means is he a bad football player. Let’s remember who’s he’s played with. He’s being asked to anchor the line along with Zietler. I thought big wills had his best game this past Sunday. He’s looked better each week. He’s a mauler in the run game his pass pro
Could use help but again, he’s next to gates and statistically the worst left tackle in the nfl. Will is a keeper. Arrow is pointing up.
Been saying for years now that the Giants personnel dept needs  
Rick in Dallas : 10/18/2020 7:24 am : link
complete overhaul both the pro personnel dept and the college scouting dept.
Just plain awful results evaluating talent.
One hopes the Giant front office has a procedure in place  
NYRiese : 10/18/2020 7:51 am : link
to evaluate the evaluators.
But we don’t know if they do...we only hope they do.
Barkley  
XBRONX : 10/18/2020 7:59 am : link
was a no brainer talent wise.Who is the next best player we drafted? Dexter? Hardly been the monster some predicted.
Does a bear shit in the woods?  
The_Boss : 10/18/2020 8:05 am : link
Look at the overall record since SB 46...it’s horrendous.
I’m not saying Hernandez is a bust, but I think he’s underwhelmed.  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/18/2020 8:06 am : link
With the 34th pick in the draft, I would’ve expected more.

Clearly he isn’t James Brewer, or Mitch Petrus, or Brandon Mosley. But he also was picked much higher than those players.

Let’s compare him to another 34th pick overall: Chris Snee.

Snee is the type of value and production I would like to get from a player picked that high at the same position.

I would have hoped that the Hernandez’s production was closer to the only other true offensive guard drafted before him in 2018: Quenton Nelson.
Hernandez is a bit of a odd player to evaluate  
LBH15 : 10/18/2020 8:27 am : link
No reason in the world he shouldn't be the best player on the Oline right now each and every game. In fact, he should one of the best Guards in the NFC by now. But he is not.

He played so well in 2018 that it is just maddening that his game flattened out, if not regressed the past 1.5 seasons. While I see him as a plus run blocker, Hernandez just appears lazy with his feet a lot of times in pass protection, and even sometimes run plays.

While i understand that an Oline should be judged as a unit since they function as a unit, I think excuses of poor LT and C play around WH is running thin.

He is durable though which is helpful.

I have a legit question  
joeinpa : 10/18/2020 9:04 am : link
How do you know from watching the game on tv, how a guy like Hernandez is playing

For me, other than an obvious mistake, sack, I have no idea how an individual O line is playing

Do you focus on line play during the game, do you rewatch game, do you get the all 22 tape or maybe you played offensively line and it s easier for you.

Serious question not being a wise guy.
RE: I have a legit question  
LBH15 : 10/18/2020 9:16 am : link
In comment 15011481 joeinpa said:
Quote:
How do you know from watching the game on tv, how a guy like Hernandez is playing

For me, other than an obvious mistake, sack, I have no idea how an individual O line is playing

Do you focus on line play during the game, do you rewatch game, do you get the all 22 tape or maybe you played offensively line and it s easier for you.

Serious question not being a wise guy.


Joe - at least for me, i don't focus too much on Giant Oline play during the game. I do generally look to see if line is being pushed back or pushing forward on run plays and if Tackles are holding up on pass plays.

Most of the details on Oline play I watch is that weekly Oline Report video that comes out...Bobby Skinner. He seems to do a reasonably good job of focusing on flaws.
RE: I have a legit question  
broadbandz : 10/18/2020 9:17 am : link
In comment 15011481 joeinpa said:
Quote:
How do you know from watching the game on tv, how a guy like Hernandez is playing

For me, other than an obvious mistake, sack, I have no idea how an individual O line is playing

Do you focus on line play during the game, do you rewatch game, do you get the all 22 tape or maybe you played offensively line and it s easier for you.

Serious question not being a wise guy.


you have to have 22 tape and know what your seeing. even then you have to guess what the scheme on the play was. no one can do it perfect.
Mara is 🗑  
Saquads26 : 10/18/2020 9:18 am : link
He has to go
How would you rate  
ArtVandelay : 10/18/2020 9:42 am : link
Brett Jones, Halapio and Pulley?
I think it is probably  
section125 : 10/18/2020 9:51 am : link
true that they have questionable talent assessment. But I have also wondered, especially in the case of OL, why other teams have no-names that do well and the Giants do not. I think it is more likely that poor coaching has more to do with lack of success. The line now appears to be getting better or at least getting some movement the last couple weeks. Gates only has 5 games ever at center. Thomas is not doing as well as was expected at LT. I think Colombo will be able to put together a competent line.

But, yeah, overall they have trouble identifying talent.
Let’s look at an NFC east rival to try and put this in perspective.  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/18/2020 10:29 am : link
In 2011, the Cowboys drafted future hall of famer Tyron Smith with the 9th overall pick. 4 years later in 2015, also with the 9th pick, the Giants selected Flowers. 4 picks later, the Saints drafted pro bowler Andrus Peat.

In 2014, the Cowboys selected future hall of famer Zach Martin with the 16th overall pick. The Giants chose Beckham 4 picks earlier. The year before in 2013, the Giants selected Justin Pugh with the 19th pick. The bears selected pro bowl guard Kyle Long with the next pick.

In 2013, the Cowboys selected all-pro Travis Frederick with the 31st overall pick. In 2014, the Giants chose Weston Richburg with the 43rd overall pick.

This is a major problem that keeps resurfacing.






Ya think? The proof is in our record and paltry play  
SGMen : 10/18/2020 10:31 am : link
Watching Jones RUN RUN RUN and our RB's getting STUFFED behind the LOS on so many snaps is telling.
Last week, the Cowboys beat the Giants  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/18/2020 10:33 am : link
With Brandon Knight and Terrence Steele, two undrafted free agent tackles.

Those two players arguably outperformed the Giants tackle tandem.
RE: Let’s look at an NFC east rival to try and put this in perspective.  
section125 : 10/18/2020 10:37 am : link
In comment 15011530 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
In 2011, the Cowboys drafted future hall of famer Tyron Smith with the 9th overall pick. 4 years later in 2015, also with the 9th pick, the Giants selected Flowers. 4 picks later, the Saints drafted pro bowler Andrus Peat.

In 2014, the Cowboys selected future hall of famer Zach Martin with the 16th overall pick. The Giants chose Beckham 4 picks earlier. The year before in 2013, the Giants selected Justin Pugh with the 19th pick. The bears selected pro bowl guard Kyle Long with the next pick.

In 2013, the Cowboys selected all-pro Travis Frederick with the 31st overall pick. In 2014, the Giants chose Weston Richburg with the 43rd overall pick.

This is a major problem that keeps resurfacing.







I think we all wanted Martin....

As far as the others mentioned - Peat was deemed to be soft and ended up at guard - how mant times did he threaten to quite? Flowers was regarded as as good if not better prospect.
Richburg was deemed the best center available.
Pugh would likely have been better than Long except for the constant injuries.

So I think it has to do with coaching.

Martin, IMV, was the only true miss as was Nelson, but who picks a guard at #2? I may have...
Keep in mind since 2011  
Dave on the UWS : 10/18/2020 10:37 am : link
the VP of Player personnel is an OWNER!!
Is Chris going to fire himself? Anyone else would have been years ago. They’ve been purging some scouts the last year or so, but the basic structure is still in place with no hope for improvement. The only hope for us fans is so many people cancel their season tickets that the stadium will be half full after the pandemic. Maybe the Mara’s will get the message then.
Vin...I have never posted it but thought about this for years.  
Blue21 : 10/18/2020 10:52 am : link
Can it be our scouts are bad and misleading(not intentionally) into bad picks? Giants certainly don't seem to have an eye for Oline talent. Seems like the other position with maybe some exceptions they seem pretty good at but Oline seems to be a continual swing and miss.
They have a problem  
HomerJones45 : 10/18/2020 10:54 am : link
self-analyzing the talent and issues that are here right in front of them. What makes you guys think there isn't a problem scouting and identifying talent that they can't see every day.
RE: They have a problem  
Percy : 10/18/2020 11:13 am : link
In comment 15011552 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
self-analyzing the talent and issues that are here right in front of them. What makes you guys think there isn't a problem scouting and identifying talent that they can't see every day.
.
RE: Let’s look at an NFC east rival to try and put this in perspective.  
BlueLou'sBack : 10/18/2020 11:22 am : link
In comment 15011530 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
In 2011, the Cowboys drafted future hall of famer Tyron Smith with the 9th overall pick. 4 years later in 2015, also with the 9th pick, the Giants selected Flowers. 4 picks later, the Saints drafted pro bowler Andrus Peat.

In 2014, the Cowboys selected future hall of famer Zach Martin with the 16th overall pick. The Giants chose Beckham 4 picks earlier. The year before in 2013, the Giants selected Justin Pugh with the 19th pick. The bears selected pro bowl guard Kyle Long with the next pick.

In 2013, the Cowboys selected all-pro Travis Frederick with the 31st overall pick. In 2014, the Giants chose Weston Richburg with the 43rd overall pick.

This is a major problem that keeps resurfacing.


Few here will want to admit it, Vin, but your slate of examples all date from the Jerry Reese - Marc Ross era.

If you start examining the Giants' player acquisitions since DG became GM and Chris Petit head of college scouting (is that his title?) the draft has gone much, much better in terms of talent acquisition, and looking at this year's FA acquisitions that pool looks better too.

You listed a bunch of OL that Reese Ross failed at drafting or acquiring as vets, and then listed Big George and Will Hernandez (and maybe Andrew Thomas?) as examples that is hasn't improved?

That's premature and likely hogwash

Its really still way too early to even compare Gettleman's OL draft picks to Reeses. Because he drafted 3 OL this year I think it's going to be a very good time to compare Reese's and DG's success acquiring OL after the 2022 season has concluded.

But the what have you done for me lately crowd has already spoken... without data or even a chance to analyze it, but this crowd largely wants DG gone.

If the Giants have an above average OL (not a haul of pro bowlers like the Cowboys recently have had) that are playing well together BY THE END OF 2022 with Thomas, Hernandez, Gates, Lemeiux and Peart starting from left to right, then Gettleman will have done an OUTSTANDING job of retooling the Giants' OL - without overly investing high draft picks in the unit considering that group is one high 1st, one high 2nd, one very late 3rd, one high 5th, and one UDFA.

And they can be very good without even one consistent All Pro on the unit, like the 2007 OL.

Are we upset DG didn't get it done sooner? Sure.

But if guys like Carter, Hill, Ximines etc perform, and Carter surely was looking good early this year before his Achille's injury, when should DG have accomplished it?

Hell if Gates looks like simply an AVERAGE OC by this year's end that's a decent feather in DG's cap.

You have to separate the DG and R&R regimes, and need to have a bit more patience with DG.

The scout that brought us DeAndre Baker is gone, rightfully so.
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