His conservative scheme, lack of feel for play calling, coupled with a young Qb who is aggressive. Puts a lot of pressure on defense.
Ravens built a scheme around l-Jax. We are forcing dj into the “garret just beat your man‘ scheme. Shurmer sucked as a head coach but we scored more points with a worse o line and same characters.
My friend who is a cowgirls fan told me. U got a great head coach with judge. But u will come to hate garret. There is a reason he brought in other o co-ords and gave up play calling. Prefer judge pull someone from college ranks.
Daniel Jones is young and he is also accountable for leading the o but garret isn’t helping him.
Good Coordinators design for the players they have. For instance is it possible that Evan Engram runs a seam and you bomb the ball down the field? You could playaction to the left side and you roll out DJ to the right and Slayton runs a slant to the same side of the field, if the play is there you throw, if not DJ tucks and runs it. You could run more no huddle give the defense less time to change players. I'm talking about scheme and timing regardless of talent. Your job is to scheme your players open. If you think no one could call a game better than Jason Garret with these players I disagree. The 2020 Giants are not the first crappy team I have watched play NFL football but I have seen other bad NFL teams produce better results with their bad players. DJ is our leading rusher, start using it to your advantage.
Jones with Barkley:
9 Games
21 TD's
8 INT's
265 yds.gm
3 games of passer rating above 120
Without Barkley:
8 Games
5 TD's
9 INT's
217 yds/gm
0 games of 120+ passer raying
We have a rebuilding OL, the worst group of wideouts in the league (down to 2 receivers at one point in this game until Slayton came back), the worst group of RBs in the league, and arguably the worst group of TEs.
But hey, the coaching is the problem! If we only had a good coach, we'd be scoring 30 points a game!
Right.
I honestly don’t know., so I’m asking for some input. Isn’t his “thing” that he’s a quarterback guru?
The Giants threw a 27-yard touchdown pass on 3rd-and-9.
That is poor at protecting and run blocking
But it is the coordinator? I can’t .... chunk plays with whom? With what time? Our offensive roster is horrendous
That is poor at protecting and run blocking
But it is the coordinator? I can’t .... chunk plays with whom? With what time? Our offensive roster is horrendous
Great thread...can I please subscribe to your newsletter?
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In comment 15013223 Eric from BBI said:
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for Pete's sake, look at the fucking roster.
The roster sucked last season too. The only way Jones gets to 24 passing TDs this year is with a mid season trade back to Duke. The running game is embarrassing right now. The change in coaching hasn’t elevated the offensive line at all. And now Evan Engram is a non-factor.
Saquon Barkley.
Man, the IQ level of the average Giants fan has hit an all-time low.
Saquon Barkley ran for SIX yards on 15 carries in the opener. Exactly where has Jason Garrett improved the offense? Name literally one thing. I’m not making it up that the QB is worse than last season. We all see it. Christian McCaffrey gets hurt and Carolina still can run the ball. And none of this has anything to do with Evan Engram’s disappearance. It’s early, but who could post be enthusiastic or even optimistic about the job Garrett has done?
With Pitt selling out to stop the run, Jones was able to connect with Slayton on the longest play of the season. With Barkley out, teams have sat back in a 2 Deep Zone and I have seen a ton of posts complaining ab out not getting deep plays. The very thing the Cover 2 is in place to stop.
I'm not sure what magical formula people are looking for with the offense. Look at Jones splits with Saquon and without him
Eric I'm talking about NOT waiting for 3rd down to take your chances.
This team is not good and there is enough blame to go around. I'm not disagreeing the roster sucks. I'm saying at Garrett is not helping DJ. I do not think his gamr plans uses DJs strengths. I don't know you sit on DJ fence. I personally feel DJ has converted 3rd downs and saving Garret's shitty play calling.
I'm saying Garret's second down calls should look more like his third down calls and give DJ two shots instead of one because Garret calls a weak as running play on second down because he wants 3rd and 7 instead of possibly being second and 10. Which I understand why he is doing, I just don't agree with the strategy of playing that safe.
If DJ can convert 3rd and 7 as much as he has, I think with a little more risk DJ could create more rewarding plays on second down.
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In comment 15013292 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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In comment 15013223 Eric from BBI said:
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for Pete's sake, look at the fucking roster.
The roster sucked last season too. The only way Jones gets to 24 passing TDs this year is with a mid season trade back to Duke. The running game is embarrassing right now. The change in coaching hasn’t elevated the offensive line at all. And now Evan Engram is a non-factor.
Saquon Barkley.
Man, the IQ level of the average Giants fan has hit an all-time low.
Saquon Barkley ran for SIX yards on 15 carries in the opener. Exactly where has Jason Garrett improved the offense? Name literally one thing. I’m not making it up that the QB is worse than last season. We all see it. Christian McCaffrey gets hurt and Carolina still can run the ball. And none of this has anything to do with Evan Engram’s disappearance. It’s early, but who could post be enthusiastic or even optimistic about the job Garrett has done?
Its obvious you didnt watch the run blocking the first 2 games. Its okay, just stop posting shit without putting forth a frame of reference.
3/5 new starters on the OL, one of which is a rookie and another has never plaued his position before....no offseason...but dont let that stop you from rushing to judgement.
Eric I'm talking about NOT waiting for 3rd down to take your chances.
This team is not good and there is enough blame to go around. I'm not disagreeing the roster sucks. I'm saying at Garrett is not helping DJ. I do not think his gamr plans uses DJs strengths. I don't know you sit on DJ fence. I personally feel DJ has converted 3rd downs and saving Garret's shitty play calling.
I'm saying Garret's second down calls should look more like his third down calls and give DJ two shots instead of one because Garret calls a weak as running play on second down because he wants 3rd and 7 instead of possibly being second and 10. Which I understand why he is doing, I just don't agree with the strategy of playing that safe.
If DJ can convert 3rd and 7 as much as he has, I think with a little more risk DJ could create more rewarding plays on second down.
Conversely, there were short yardage plays where he tried to drive short yardage and got stuffed by a line that has 4 1st rounders on it. He called plays that got Jones outside including a 49 yard run by the QB. Fact is, the other team sees no outside threats on this team. We had a hobbled Slayton and Engram who cant get open except underneath.
Just infuriating to read posts like yours.
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Saquon Barkley ran for SIX yards on 15 carries in the opener. Exactly where has Jason Garrett improved the offense? Name literally one thing. I’m not making it up that the QB is worse than last season. We all see it. Christian McCaffrey gets hurt and Carolina still can run the ball. And none of this has anything to do with Evan Engram’s disappearance. It’s early, but who could post be enthusiastic or even optimistic about the job Garrett has done?
With Pitt selling out to stop the run, Jones was able to connect with Slayton on the longest play of the season. With Barkley out, teams have sat back in a 2 Deep Zone and I have seen a ton of posts complaining ab out not getting deep plays. The very thing the Cover 2 is in place to stop.
I'm not sure what magical formula people are looking for with the offense. Look at Jones splits with Saquon and without him
In defense of Jones, I’ve often made the point about how it would be nice to run the ball down someone’s throat and win the game that way. If the safeties are playing back now, then where’s the running game outside of Jones? Freeman wasn’t that good today. They didn’t run the ball all that well last week against an embarrassingly bad run D. I’m not asking for The Greatest Show on Turf. Just tell me one area where the offense hasn’t gone backwards?
Eric, your one-liner responses are priceless.
We can't really compare last year to this year though. How many times were people bitching about yards in "garbage time", but now, we are trying to compare production is close games to that?
We haven't had Barkley, Shepard, Tate and Engram on the field together for more than a quarter. Ever. And Barkley is out, Shepard is out and we have Tate and Slayton as the only WR's with any competency.
What is a OC supposed to do to overcome this? Again - I've seen a number of complaints about not throwing the ball deep. And those that point that out is a sure sign of not understanding defensive schemes.
He is THE only player on the offensive side of the football that scare anyone... and he frightens the shit out of them.
When you take him away, it's like taking Michael Jordan off the Bulls.
He is THE only player on the offensive side of the football that scare anyone... and he frightens the shit out of them.
When you take him away, it's like taking Michael Jordan off the Bulls.
Bullshit. Go look at the Eagles injuries — they’re still gonna put up points Thursday.
You work with what you’ve got. I don’t have a Garrett opinion either way, but he should be gearing the offense to take advantage of Jones’s legs. Quick reads and take off if it isn’t there. This will minimize the negative plays and protect the OL.
I think DJ is at the very least as good as young Ryan Fitzpatrick. The kid has pretty accurate arm and makes some big mistakes.
Garrett's offensive style is obviously the only way to call a game. Garrett was around when they picked these players who can't get open to be on the roster when they cut down to 53. There are backups getting open on short routes for other teams but our starters are just that terrible and Garret didn't notice this during camp?
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You do understand that when Saquon Barkley is on the field, it AFFECTS EVERYTHING. The things the Giants can and can't do, the way the defense defends everyone else.
He is THE only player on the offensive side of the football that scare anyone... and he frightens the shit out of them.
When you take him away, it's like taking Michael Jordan off the Bulls.
Bullshit. Go look at the Eagles injuries — they’re still gonna put up points Thursday.
You work with what you’ve got. I don’t have a Garrett opinion either way, but he should be gearing the offense to take advantage of Jones’s legs. Quick reads and take off if it isn’t there. This will minimize the negative plays and protect the OL.
The Eagles have a bad record but they have really showed what you could do with minimal talent and good coaching. We have more talent at WR then they do. Slayton, Engram, and Tate are better or equal than this year’s version of Ertz, Fulgham, Greg Ward. The Eagles came within a two point conversion of beating the Ravens today.
Me too, I don't think we are saying anything that crazy. Im not saying I expect this team to turn in a juggernaut. I just think Garret is not helping the cause. We are not the first crappy team on the NFL but I have seen coordinators do better with rosters just as bad.
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In comment 15013456 Eric from BBI said:
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You do understand that when Saquon Barkley is on the field, it AFFECTS EVERYTHING. The things the Giants can and can't do, the way the defense defends everyone else.
He is THE only player on the offensive side of the football that scare anyone... and he frightens the shit out of them.
When you take him away, it's like taking Michael Jordan off the Bulls.
Bullshit. Go look at the Eagles injuries — they’re still gonna put up points Thursday.
You work with what you’ve got. I don’t have a Garrett opinion either way, but he should be gearing the offense to take advantage of Jones’s legs. Quick reads and take off if it isn’t there. This will minimize the negative plays and protect the OL.
The Eagles have a bad record but they have really showed what you could do with minimal talent and good coaching. We have more talent at WR then they do. Slayton, Engram, and Tate are better or equal than this year’s version of Ertz, Fulgham, Greg Ward. The Eagles came within a two point conversion of beating the Ravens today.
And Ertz/Sanders went out and likely won’t play Thursday.
Just completely non-aggressive play calling.
The first play of the game he rolled Jones out and they had an easy 20 yard chunk play to Engram. Didn't even try going back to him at all after that.
To those saying there are "no weapons" you are right, but you are also completely misunderstanding the NFL. Who were the weapons on Washington marching up and down the field? Dontrelle Inman? Antonio Gibson?
They need to let Jones (and Engram) play the way they did last year. Judge's first big test is figuring out how to get the Garrett/Jones relationship to work. At this point I'm thinking we chose wrong between Callahan for OL coach or Garrett for OC.
Given the overall level of OL play alone I'd suggest leaving Garrett in place another year at least.
Of course I wanted Jay Gruden as OC, since his system is a lot more similar to Pat Shurmur's. Hell I'd have kept Shurmur as OC if he would have agreed to a demotion as opposed to getting canned outright.
Not into blaming Garrett when the OL and QB play have been so inconsistent. Ans Saquon's out, as is Shepard...
Athletically... yeah, they’d be pretty similar. There isn’t another player in the NFL with a similar size/speed/jump combo, coupled with elite agility and elite strength, he’s just incomparable. So I support the Jordan reference, athletically, obviously not in terms of championships won.
Golden Tate has done shit this year. Slayton couldn't get off the jam for three weeks in a row. Evan Engram AGAIN just disappears for long stretches (under multiple coaches). Austin Mack? Our leading RB wasn't even on a team a few weeks ago.
But look at the Eagles! Look at the Dolphins!
Idiots. We're worse.
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In comment 15013483 WillVAB said:
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In comment 15013456 Eric from BBI said:
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You do understand that when Saquon Barkley is on the field, it AFFECTS EVERYTHING. The things the Giants can and can't do, the way the defense defends everyone else.
He is THE only player on the offensive side of the football that scare anyone... and he frightens the shit out of them.
When you take him away, it's like taking Michael Jordan off the Bulls.
Bullshit. Go look at the Eagles injuries — they’re still gonna put up points Thursday.
You work with what you’ve got. I don’t have a Garrett opinion either way, but he should be gearing the offense to take advantage of Jones’s legs. Quick reads and take off if it isn’t there. This will minimize the negative plays and protect the OL.
The Eagles have a bad record but they have really showed what you could do with minimal talent and good coaching. We have more talent at WR then they do. Slayton, Engram, and Tate are better or equal than this year’s version of Ertz, Fulgham, Greg Ward. The Eagles came within a two point conversion of beating the Ravens today.
And Ertz/Sanders went out and likely won’t play Thursday.
Don’t worry, Boston Scott will take care of us, like last year.
I like Joe Judge, I like what he says and his belief system. He talked about being multiple, versatile, exposing the other teams weakness with our teams strengths.
I think Patrick Graham was Judge's decision. I see the gameplans change on defense, I see the personal moving all over the field, I see certain players going in, on certain situations.
I think Giants brass was a little nervous about hiring this young Head Coach with no head coaching experience. I think they heavily recommend the Garrett hire, someone they are very familiar with, had head coaching experience in the division, had a couple young QBs developed underneath his watch.
But what I dont see what Judge said showing up on the side of the ball and I dont think it has anything to do with personnel. I dont see the game plan changing based on the defense they are going against.
If we were morphing our gameplan we would have come out firing, even if it was unsuccessful against this aggressive front who gave up more chunk plays then any other defense in the NFL. We would be seeing plays that worked once in the first quarter, over and over again until we were sick of it because it was a good matchup.
I dont see this, I see the same offense doing the same gameplan every week no matter who the opponent is. I dont think Garrett is really Judge's guy and it shows on the field. This is third game in a row were we are trying to sustain long drives and trying to get 3rd down manageable by not taking chances on second down. We are more David Simms than we are Roy McAvoy when in the Redzone. It has not mattered who we were playing against. Same plan every week.
Golden Tate has done shit this year. Slayton couldn't get off the jam for three weeks in a row. Evan Engram AGAIN just disappears for long stretches (under multiple coaches). Austin Mack? Our leading RB wasn't even on a team a few weeks ago.
But look at the Eagles! Look at the Dolphins!
Idiots. We're worse.
Is Evan Engram almost half as talented this year (29 ypg / 8 ypc) relative to his prior career averages (50 ypg / 11 ypc)?
Darius Slayton is on pace for almost 1,200 yards at a very healthy 15.9 ypc and has 11 tds in his first 20 games - is he not a weapon?
Did Daniel Jones not have a far better year last year with basically this exact same supporting cast and multiple guys banged up all year (including Barkley/Shepard)?
Was today not their 3rd game in a row rushing for 100 yards?
I have no illusions that anyone would describe this offense as "explosive" but it's flat out wrong to act like there aren't teams out there getting more out of less. The Eagles best healthy offensive player heading into Thursday's game is a guy they claimed 2 weeks before the season began after getting cut by the 2nd or 3rd team he was on.
He is THE only player on the offensive side of the football that scare anyone... and he frightens the shit out of them.
When you take him away, it's like taking Michael Jordan off the Bulls.
LOL
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You do understand that when Saquon Barkley is on the field, it AFFECTS EVERYTHING. The things the Giants can and can't do, the way the defense defends everyone else.
He is THE only player on the offensive side of the football that scare anyone... and he frightens the shit out of them.
When you take him away, it's like taking Michael Jordan off the Bulls.
LOL
Holy hyperbole Eric !
The fact you can't see what the loss of Saquon Barkley meant to this entire offense is mind-numbing.
It's like you guys are living in denial.
They are not winning one-on-one match-ups because they are not good.
Austin Mack - an undrafted rookie free agent who was active for the first time on Sunday - was our #2 receiver.
Our leading receiver was Kaden Smith who had 3 catches for 15 yards.
We have the worst group of running backs in the league.
Dave Brown had more talent to work with.
I’m merely separating the Barkley factor from the lack of talent overall factor.
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with McCaffrey injured? They’re still averaged 120 rushing yards per game since he’s been hurt. Once again, I’m not asking for greatness. But is it too much to be able to point to literally one thing and say, “That’s better”? I’m keeping the bar rather low.
Me too, I don't think we are saying anything that crazy. Im not saying I expect this team to turn in a juggernaut. I just think Garret is not helping the cause. We are not the first crappy team on the NFL but I have seen coordinators do better with rosters just as bad.
DJ Moore is a stud true number 1 WR. Love Slayton, but right now he’s a high end number 2.
As a result DJ needs to be absolutely perfect from the pocket. Rolling him out consistently into zones and taking away from half the field is dumb regardless of what some posters here want to say.
You have a lot of idiots here that really don’t understand how football work but proclaim like they do, and then they give each other handjobs.
You don’t think Garrett doesn’t love rolling out his QB for a quick easy 30? Of course he does, but you need to set it up. Unfortunately we rarely can run the ball consistently enough. Shit the Redskins were half a step from stopping DJ in backfield on his big run. Teams are adjusting. While a good athlete expecting him to make guts miss on NFL level is asinine.
Freeman was running hard on that drive, I wish he had kept it simple there,
Robbie Anderson is a very good number two guy as well. Comparing us and Carolina is asinine just because we are both missing our stud RBs.
The one minor quibble I had was that every time Garrett had motion into a tight formation, they ran the ball. I was expecting him to call a play action out of that formation at some point, but it never came. Maybe this week?
Rather the point was that if you agree Judge is a good head coach, and we have shown improvement on D with multiple injuries, key free agent additions, inexperienced rookies, etc. (Graham is getting the juice with the squeeze), then why is Garret showing less production with DJ than Shurmer? I think it is a fair argument.
It may just be anecodotal on my part, or I'm being influenced by my friend the Cowgirl fan, however someone posted a video last week that analyzed DJ's last drive and it showed he made all the correct decisions but that the curl routes and following give ups by the receivers left DJ with little options to convert. Just one film study, but nonetheless the guy made a point.
So I think there is more than one issue here, and I am not disagreeing that Barkley was a huge loss, but man this is football, and its next man up.
To quote judge tell me what you have, don't tell me what you don't have.
I found the article below which describes Shurmer vs Garrett's system. Quick read. I am not an O coordinator so need to trust the pundits....
Link - ( New Window )