ok...i get your point. You think Golden Tate sucks. My question is - what are we going to do about it?
Our receivers right now are Slayton and....? Shepard is coming back obviously. Austin Mack?
We don't have any other guys. Clearly we need to address this in the draft, but you guys just want someone to automatically replace Tate. It's not happening.
i have a suspicion that once the OL and Jones start to get more comfortable with the offense you guys are going to want Tate on the field on third down in (hopefully) important games.
I don't agree. The offense I think can be better than it is if 2 things happened.
1, we need a WR other than Slayton to step up. 2, we need to continue to run Jones to open things up.
Tate is done. He was very solid for us last year but he's got nothing left. If we replaced him with a healthy Shepard I think we'd see a pretty big difference.
Shepard has proven to be injury prone at this point. He's awesome but he can't stay healthy.
We don't have anyone else besides Slayton, Shepard, and Tate. Nobody else is good/has experience being effective in the NFL.
I know. I'm just saying a healthy Shepard would definitively prove that Tate is done.
Tate can't get separation and drops passes. I'm not sure how well he's even blocking (admittedly I haven't looked for him on this front). He's not good enough to step his game up to make a difference on a team like this. He'd be a decent #3 in a good offense where his non-explosiveness wouldn't matter.
ok...i get your point. You think Golden Tate sucks. My question is - what are we going to do about it?
Our receivers right now are Slayton and....? Shepard is coming back obviously. Austin Mack?
We don't have any other guys. Clearly we need to address this in the draft, but you guys just want someone to automatically replace Tate. It's not happening.
"We" are going to do the only thing we always do...you are going to say Tate played well last year so this will get better, and I am going to think objectively and say differently.
And I don't care who plays. Mentioned numerous times this year that completely ignoring WR throughout free agency AND a deep draft was an odd decision. Not suggesting should have used #1 pick, but starting receiving targets included Shep (concussion issues) and Tate (old) so another body was clearly needed.
i have a suspicion that once the OL and Jones start to get more comfortable with the offense you guys are going to want Tate on the field on third down in (hopefully) important games.
But, before even setting foot on the field he was not only suspended, but had a strange story about it. Whether or not you want to buy his ridiculous claims about the PED test, the bottom line is he seems to have withheld info from the team and their doctors. I would have tried everything in my power to avoid the contract then. I said it then and I stick to that now.
Dead money is a sunk cost. You have to pay it whether the player is on the roster or not. What matters is if you gain or lose cap space if you cut a player. Shepard ($3m), Tate ($6m) and Solder ($6m) can all be cut with those cap savings next year. And that’s with a pre June 1 designation. Post June 1 they can save more. $7m, $8.5m and $10m respectively.
has actually done a pretty good job at, is NOT put a strain on the cap. The veteran signings he has made (aside from Solder) have not affected our ability to sign anyone long term or be flexible long term.
even Middle of the pack kind of guys. That's why if i was running a team I would draft one every year, (along with Oline), how high in the draft would depend on who is available and how the previous years guys worked out.
I would only sign a FA WR's if its a superstar top of the market guy, but it has to be for the right guy.
Or a cheap reclaim project like Corey Coleman.
This year Juju Smith, Allen Robinson will be the top guys and I don't think i trust either one.
Just say no....Sammy Watkins, AJ Green, T.Y Hilton, Kenny Stills.
Reclaim projects if cheap...Corey Davis, John Ross.
you missed the most glaring stat - just 24 targets in 5 games
his catch % is actually at near 80% which is quite good and would be a career high. His YPC is at a career low of 8. Just like Engram. And just like Jones Y/A are dramatically lower this year vs. last year.
Gee, maybe there's a trend here that's bigger than each of these individual players underperforming.
has actually done a pretty good job at, is NOT put a strain on the cap. The veteran signings he has made (aside from Solder) have not affected our ability to sign anyone long term or be flexible long term.
4 wins last year and one so far this year. His work here has been awful but thanks for not screwing over the next GM with the cap...yet.
you have an answer for everything and your hatred for DG will always win out. You can't come to grips with the fact that you need to sign veterans to help out if you're a rebuilding team, which is what the Giants are.
You can argue with the Tate signing all you want and call it idiotic or dumb or pathetic or whatever the hell you choose to call DG on any specific day.
The rest of us realize that it's not that much money, clearly they didn't want to draft WR in 2020 and instead chose to invest in OL and defense.
I'd be willing to bet that we go WR within the first 3 rounds of 2021 and perhaps check into some value signings on the free agent market as well. Just don't be surprised if Tate is back in 2021. He's a tough receiver that can make catches over the middle on third down, that's important for Jones' growth. He's not in his prime anymore, we get it.
of your cap space needs to be spent. If anyone wants to recommend or list what they would have done with that money instead of Golden Tate, I'm all ears. Maybe we would have signed 2 receivers for less who suck even more?
It's not that much money, we are building this team for 2020 and beyond.
you have an answer for everything and your hatred for DG will always win out. You can't come to grips with the fact that you need to sign veterans to help out if you're a rebuilding team, which is what the Giants are.
You can argue with the Tate signing all you want and call it idiotic or dumb or pathetic or whatever the hell you choose to call DG on any specific day.
The rest of us realize that it's not that much money, clearly they didn't want to draft WR in 2020 and instead chose to invest in OL and defense.
I'd be willing to bet that we go WR within the first 3 rounds of 2021 and perhaps check into some value signings on the free agent market as well. Just don't be surprised if Tate is back in 2021. He's a tough receiver that can make catches over the middle on third down, that's important for Jones' growth. He's not in his prime anymore, we get it.
Apologies for having answers.
And of course they should sign some veterans with experience. Can they be reasonably decent at their position though? If not, then I want more draft picks for a rebuilding team.
Here is an idea at WR...let’s trade for the guy that picked off DJ’s pass in the back of the end zone yesterday and let him take Tate’s spot. It was a great effort and he seems to have a good rapport with our QB.
the guy they should have signed over Tate is Crowder
But there will be cases like that every FA cycle. This year I wish they'd have signed Conklin at the number he got and brought in Callahan. Perhaps our OL would have had the day 1 improvement the Browns did. And with another OC perhaps the offense wouldn't have regressed into the stone age of ground and pound.
But back to Tate considering we have no weapons, I'd like to see what he looks like if they used him the same way he was used last year. Same with Engram. I'm not sure how we can evaluate these guys when they get 2 or 3 targets per week and almost all within 10 yards of the LOS. He's catching 80% of what comes his way.
of your cap space needs to be spent. If anyone wants to recommend or list what they would have done with that money instead of Golden Tate, I'm all ears. Maybe we would have signed 2 receivers for less who suck even more?
It's not that much money, we are building this team for 2020 and beyond.
Gettleman did Jones no favors by not pursuing somebody at WR to add to this roster this year. If his earlier signings, other than Solder, have not prevented the team to go out and pursue players then why not add another WR target this spring.
His franchise QB is basically on a 10 game trial for his job and he has nobody to throw the ball to. Thanks.
your issue is that you think the Giants offense is a finished product. We have a brand new scheme, our best player out, and we are still building the OL and will add WR in 2021.
You think that the offense is what it is right now and can't see any light, that's your problem.
Jesus, give me a break. Solder I can qualify as a disaster, both the money and the hole it left us since we didn't get the upgrade, but the others?
I'd reserve "disaster" for signings like Albert Haynesworth. $3.4m guaranteed for Bethea isn't a disaster, it was simply a signing that didn't work out well. Same with Stewart.
He's been an absolute non-factor this season. Darius Slayton, a 5th round draft pick from last year who is somewhat hobbled and I'm guessing gets more attention from the opposing defense than Tate, gets open and makes a ton more plays than Tate. He's been horrendous.
your issue is that you think the Giants offense is a finished product. We have a brand new scheme, our best player out, and we are still building the OL and will add WR in 2021.
You think that the offense is what it is right now and can't see any light, that's your problem.
The Giants offense, not a finished product. A recurring storyline since 2016
The dead money fixation here is nuts
BillT : 9:35 am : link : reply
Dead money is a sunk cost. You have to pay it whether the player is on the roster or not. What matters is if you gain or lose cap space if you cut a player. Shepard ($3m), Tate ($6m) and Solder ($6m) can all be cut with those cap savings next year. And that’s with a pre June 1 designation. Post June 1 they can save more. $7m, $8.5m and $10m respectively.
I've argued this view ad nauseum. Dead money is bad - a sign of bad signings. But, it's a sunk cost at the time of the contract signing. Right now, as you say, the most important thing is evaluating the play and the cost, or savings, of getting rid of him vs bringing in a new player.
Shepard is a guessing game solely because of his inability to stay on the field. Otherwise, it's hard to replace him for 3 mil. Tate, I think is a no brainer to get rid of. Solder should be shown the door, too, unless a year off has rejuvenated him. He's got no roster bonus due, so a training camp evaluation can show if he could be kept as a backup, or temp starter if we can't find/develop long term starters.
Bottom line, as you said, stop fixating on dead cap and worry about play vs cap savings.
DG's usage of UFA leaves a ton to be desired. I said as much after each move was made, and none of them have lived up to billing : Tate, Solder, Zeitler, have been el stinko with NYG. At least they escaped the Ogletree debacle when the opportunity presented itself.
There's smart signing in UFA, and then there's the above. The 2020 moves look smart as they went after younger, healthier guys who had arrows pointing up and are just approaching their primes. Now, they need to continue to try and infuse the roster with more talent, especially at key positions that STILL have big holes to fill before this team goes anywhere.
Garret’s offense is more predicated on stretching the top, not pitch and catch. Tate is just not a good fit, and he doesn’t have the skills set to be the number 2 outside guy. He’s too short and he’s always worked better in the slot, because he gets jammed outside too easily.
Garret loves the play action, and either going to seams with the TEs or deep to the WRs. It’s the anti-WCO offense.
This was always going to be a problem. The Giants need a big, long guy outside to pair with Slayton, and cross their fingers Shepard can stay healthy for a season.
your issue is that you think the Giants offense is a finished product. We have a brand new scheme, our best player out, and we are still building the OL and will add WR in 2021.
You think that the offense is what it is right now and can't see any light, that's your problem.
I don't have a problem other than I wish my favorite football team would stop making mistakes and entertain better roster decisions.
A Giant offense that is a finished product is some kind mythical thing that you now have turned your attention to in "Excuse-Land".
I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest a WR should have been on the GMs shopping list this season. Do you really just want to keep seeing roster holes open during the season at (fill in your position here) and say "we'll address that next year"?
Again, I am not suggesting Gettleman had to find the next Victor Cruz, but could he have done something so we weren't left with zero options when Shepard missed games (yet again), an aging Tate looked to be slowing down (obvious) and Engram looked ineffective (obvious).
Shepard, Tate, Slayton, Engram, and Barkley could all be healthy -- and that still doesn't match the skillset for the offensive philosophy.
I don't love Garret, but his philosophy with the right play caller (arguably his worst quality), is pretty sound. Run the ball to set-up the deep ball.
Look at the Cowboys last year, when Moore really unleashed their offense. They had 3 WRs with over 50 catches, averaging over 15 YPR. They had 2 outside targets over 6'1." Their slot WR averaged over 9 yards in the air before catch. Tate is averaging 6 this year.
I was really surprised and pleased with Tate last year. I never liked the signing, and I think he is a dope. But he really played well. This year, eek.
Was never a fan of this signing, especially as the "answer" to the Odell trade. He's old and doesn't have the YACability. He also has the same skillset as Shep which makes his signing fairly useless. The team needs a big body X receiver. That was Odell. Odell was a huge annoyance- I get that. But the solution to trading away an X is not to sign a washed up slot guy on a huge contract. Team still doesn't have an X even after the most loaded WR class in a decade.
but this fanbase overrates Shepard. He is another one who has issues remaining on the field and even when he is on the field he is just a bit above average. We can't cut him this year because it would kill us in dead cap money. The signing of Tate and Shepard set this franchise back. Please don't make the same mistake with Engram.
Can't sign Shep to that contract then. Shep and Tate signed pretty similar contracts within 1 month of each other to play the same position. Either don't sign Shep, sign and trade Shep (sound familiar?), or don't bring in Tate. Right now we're paying 2 slot fairly hefty sums for minimal production over 1.5 years.
Our receivers right now are Slayton and....? Shepard is coming back obviously. Austin Mack?
We don't have any other guys. Clearly we need to address this in the draft, but you guys just want someone to automatically replace Tate. It's not happening.
I don't agree. The offense I think can be better than it is if 2 things happened.
1, we need a WR other than Slayton to step up. 2, we need to continue to run Jones to open things up.
Tate is done. He was very solid for us last year but he's got nothing left. If we replaced him with a healthy Shepard I think we'd see a pretty big difference.
We don't have anyone else besides Slayton, Shepard, and Tate. Nobody else is good/has experience being effective in the NFL.
As discussed, we didn't throw huge money at Tate. It was a 2 year deal basically.
We have to use our cap space. Let me ask - what would you have done with the money instead? We didn't draft WR in 2020, we needed veteran help.
We don't have anyone else besides Slayton, Shepard, and Tate. Nobody else is good/has experience being effective in the NFL.
I know. I'm just saying a healthy Shepard would definitively prove that Tate is done.
Tate can't get separation and drops passes. I'm not sure how well he's even blocking (admittedly I haven't looked for him on this front). He's not good enough to step his game up to make a difference on a team like this. He'd be a decent #3 in a good offense where his non-explosiveness wouldn't matter.
Our receivers right now are Slayton and....? Shepard is coming back obviously. Austin Mack?
We don't have any other guys. Clearly we need to address this in the draft, but you guys just want someone to automatically replace Tate. It's not happening.
"We" are going to do the only thing we always do...you are going to say Tate played well last year so this will get better, and I am going to think objectively and say differently.
And I don't care who plays. Mentioned numerous times this year that completely ignoring WR throughout free agency AND a deep draft was an odd decision. Not suggesting should have used #1 pick, but starting receiving targets included Shep (concussion issues) and Tate (old) so another body was clearly needed.
Quote:
"rebuilding" teams shouldn't throw big money at players on the wrong side of 30. Somebody should tell DG!
As discussed, we didn't throw huge money at Tate. It was a 2 year deal basically.
We have to use our cap space. Let me ask - what would you have done with the money instead? We didn't draft WR in 2020, we needed veteran help.
you don't "have" to use cap space. Stop saying dumb things.
Travis Fulgham was a 6th round pick on his third team in as many years and is carrying the Eagles WR Corp.
Tim Patrick, undrafted and bounced around the league having a better season than Tate with probably worse QB play. The list goes on and on.
We don’t need Golden Tate. Cut him and use the $6 million on young players who actually have athleticism left.
Just bad.
You can do that without signing over the hill WRs to mutli year big contracts
I would only sign a FA WR's if its a superstar top of the market guy, but it has to be for the right guy.
Or a cheap reclaim project like Corey Coleman.
This year Juju Smith, Allen Robinson will be the top guys and I don't think i trust either one.
Just say no....Sammy Watkins, AJ Green, T.Y Hilton, Kenny Stills.
Reclaim projects if cheap...Corey Davis, John Ross.
Gee, maybe there's a trend here that's bigger than each of these individual players underperforming.
how so?
4 wins last year and one so far this year. His work here has been awful but thanks for not screwing over the next GM with the cap...yet.
Does that go on the resume?
You can argue with the Tate signing all you want and call it idiotic or dumb or pathetic or whatever the hell you choose to call DG on any specific day.
The rest of us realize that it's not that much money, clearly they didn't want to draft WR in 2020 and instead chose to invest in OL and defense.
I'd be willing to bet that we go WR within the first 3 rounds of 2021 and perhaps check into some value signings on the free agent market as well. Just don't be surprised if Tate is back in 2021. He's a tough receiver that can make catches over the middle on third down, that's important for Jones' growth. He's not in his prime anymore, we get it.
It's not that much money, we are building this team for 2020 and beyond.
You can argue with the Tate signing all you want and call it idiotic or dumb or pathetic or whatever the hell you choose to call DG on any specific day.
The rest of us realize that it's not that much money, clearly they didn't want to draft WR in 2020 and instead chose to invest in OL and defense.
I'd be willing to bet that we go WR within the first 3 rounds of 2021 and perhaps check into some value signings on the free agent market as well. Just don't be surprised if Tate is back in 2021. He's a tough receiver that can make catches over the middle on third down, that's important for Jones' growth. He's not in his prime anymore, we get it.
Apologies for having answers.
And of course they should sign some veterans with experience. Can they be reasonably decent at their position though? If not, then I want more draft picks for a rebuilding team.
Here is an idea at WR...let’s trade for the guy that picked off DJ’s pass in the back of the end zone yesterday and let him take Tate’s spot. It was a great effort and he seems to have a good rapport with our QB.
But back to Tate considering we have no weapons, I'd like to see what he looks like if they used him the same way he was used last year. Same with Engram. I'm not sure how we can evaluate these guys when they get 2 or 3 targets per week and almost all within 10 yards of the LOS. He's catching 80% of what comes his way.
It's not that much money, we are building this team for 2020 and beyond.
Gettleman did Jones no favors by not pursuing somebody at WR to add to this roster this year. If his earlier signings, other than Solder, have not prevented the team to go out and pursue players then why not add another WR target this spring.
His franchise QB is basically on a 10 game trial for his job and he has nobody to throw the ball to. Thanks.
You think that the offense is what it is right now and can't see any light, that's your problem.
Jesus, give me a break. Solder I can qualify as a disaster, both the money and the hole it left us since we didn't get the upgrade, but the others?
I'd reserve "disaster" for signings like Albert Haynesworth. $3.4m guaranteed for Bethea isn't a disaster, it was simply a signing that didn't work out well. Same with Stewart.
Is two years not multiple years and is a $10m cap hit not a lot?
Wish we can go back and re-read the thread when he was signed. It was all emotional because OBJ was traded.
2 bad moves and still have the same problem!
You think that the offense is what it is right now and can't see any light, that's your problem.
The Giants offense, not a finished product. A recurring storyline since 2016
BillT : 9:35 am : link : reply
Dead money is a sunk cost. You have to pay it whether the player is on the roster or not. What matters is if you gain or lose cap space if you cut a player. Shepard ($3m), Tate ($6m) and Solder ($6m) can all be cut with those cap savings next year. And that’s with a pre June 1 designation. Post June 1 they can save more. $7m, $8.5m and $10m respectively.
I've argued this view ad nauseum. Dead money is bad - a sign of bad signings. But, it's a sunk cost at the time of the contract signing. Right now, as you say, the most important thing is evaluating the play and the cost, or savings, of getting rid of him vs bringing in a new player.
Shepard is a guessing game solely because of his inability to stay on the field. Otherwise, it's hard to replace him for 3 mil. Tate, I think is a no brainer to get rid of. Solder should be shown the door, too, unless a year off has rejuvenated him. He's got no roster bonus due, so a training camp evaluation can show if he could be kept as a backup, or temp starter if we can't find/develop long term starters.
Bottom line, as you said, stop fixating on dead cap and worry about play vs cap savings.
There's smart signing in UFA, and then there's the above. The 2020 moves look smart as they went after younger, healthier guys who had arrows pointing up and are just approaching their primes. Now, they need to continue to try and infuse the roster with more talent, especially at key positions that STILL have big holes to fill before this team goes anywhere.
Too bad had to endure 4 years, but I understand. But it still bothers me.
Garret loves the play action, and either going to seams with the TEs or deep to the WRs. It’s the anti-WCO offense.
This was always going to be a problem. The Giants need a big, long guy outside to pair with Slayton, and cross their fingers Shepard can stay healthy for a season.
You think that the offense is what it is right now and can't see any light, that's your problem.
I don't have a problem other than I wish my favorite football team would stop making mistakes and entertain better roster decisions.
A Giant offense that is a finished product is some kind mythical thing that you now have turned your attention to in "Excuse-Land".
I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest a WR should have been on the GMs shopping list this season. Do you really just want to keep seeing roster holes open during the season at (fill in your position here) and say "we'll address that next year"?
Again, I am not suggesting Gettleman had to find the next Victor Cruz, but could he have done something so we weren't left with zero options when Shepard missed games (yet again), an aging Tate looked to be slowing down (obvious) and Engram looked ineffective (obvious).
Link - ( New Window )
I don't love Garret, but his philosophy with the right play caller (arguably his worst quality), is pretty sound. Run the ball to set-up the deep ball.
Look at the Cowboys last year, when Moore really unleashed their offense. They had 3 WRs with over 50 catches, averaging over 15 YPR. They had 2 outside targets over 6'1." Their slot WR averaged over 9 yards in the air before catch. Tate is averaging 6 this year.
I was really surprised and pleased with Tate last year. I never liked the signing, and I think he is a dope. But he really played well. This year, eek.
You’re an idiot
Can't sign Shep to that contract then. Shep and Tate signed pretty similar contracts within 1 month of each other to play the same position. Either don't sign Shep, sign and trade Shep (sound familiar?), or don't bring in Tate. Right now we're paying 2 slot fairly hefty sums for minimal production over 1.5 years.