Just curious as many "fans" cheered for a loss as opposed to a win.
Wondering what would be the benefit of just tanking? Aside from the obvious higher draft pick, what else do you see as the best thing to come out of it.
realization that they need to completely re-look at how they run the organization from top-to-bottom and really makes changes to make certain the Giants don't remain the losingest franchise in the NFL in recent memory...
it's not that we are just rooting for a loss. We want some accountability. We were made promises 3 years ago that we were going to get out of "qb hell", and that we were going to rebuild the offensive line with "hog mollies" and we haven't. Daniel Jones is erratic and the line still blows.
I think GM/HC should go hand in hand. If one is let go, so should the other. Now we will end up with this awkward situation where maybe we win 3 games, but they don't want to can judge already because it was only his first season (and I think that's probably right), but if they can Gettleman they have to find a GM that is fine with Judge at HC for the next years. They won't get to pick "their guy".
SO what does that end up leading to? We fire Gettleman and we end up just hiring from within again, Abrams.
If we end up being #1 overall pick bad, or 1-15 bad, I think you could justify cleaning house and restarting with Lawrence.
I rather we get accountability and change then 3-4 shitty wins and a recycle.
I guess the satisfaction of knowing you were right all along.
Revenge for Eli.
Having a personal dislike for Gettlman (he is a douchebag) and knowing he will leave your organization which you loved since a kid and he ruined.
Um actually rooting for a team that doesn't look like some 90s expansion team. They will never win anything with these guys. The worst that can happen is they win a few games and feeding into the "just give it argument". It almost guarantees shit football for like 17 years. better to hit rock bottom and be done with it.
"I hope we have the worst record in the league, so we can get X player."
Because if you have the worst record in the league, all of a sudden one player will turn you into a playoff team? Shit, instead of rooting for being bad enough to draft Lawrence, root that the Giants can win with Jones. Instead of rooting to be bad enough for Sewell, root that Gates, Thomas, and Peart solidify their positions on the OL with more experience.
it's simply the better draft pick, and roster building. We can all agree this team needs an infusion of talent on both sides of the ball in the worst way, be it WR, pass rusher, interior OL help, and the way to ensure you're picking the cream of that crop would be a higher pick. We saw just last year the tangible difference that 1 win against this same Washington Football Team did in taking us from 2OA and Chase Young, to 4OA and the dart throw selection of the 4 generally equally graded OTs. While it's far too early to put any sort of grade on Andrew Thomas, I think it was unanimous in the scouting community that Chase Young was a far superior prospect.
Same this year, while I don't think we'll be in a position to get Lawrence, but 2OA puts you in that drivers seat to take Sewell, or Chase, or Parsons, and would put us in a better position to trade down and accumulate more assets.
I understand the need for wins, and the need for this group to learn that mentality, but I think at this point the talent disparity needs to be addressed in the worst way for this team to take those next steps. Hitting on Thomas/Peart would of course do wonders, but now we need game changers.
No benefits to just losing, because I want Judge to be the next BB.
it's not that we are just rooting for a loss. We want some accountability. We were made promises 3 years ago that we were going to get out of "qb hell", and that we were going to rebuild the offensive line with "hog mollies" and we haven't. Daniel Jones is erratic and the line still blows.
I think GM/HC should go hand in hand. If one is let go, so should the other. Now we will end up with this awkward situation where maybe we win 3 games, but they don't want to can judge already because it was only his first season (and I think that's probably right), but if they can Gettleman they have to find a GM that is fine with Judge at HC for the next years. They won't get to pick "their guy".
SO what does that end up leading to? We fire Gettleman and we end up just hiring from within again, Abrams.
If we end up being #1 overall pick bad, or 1-15 bad, I think you could justify cleaning house and restarting with Lawrence.
I rather we get accountability and change then 3-4 shitty wins and a recycle.
just because you think a GM and HC should go hand in hand does not make it so. While I am not a DG fan, I am a Joe Judge Fan and players are developing. Jones is a young player and not all QBs are stars year 1-2. Especially with the skill positions we have. Defense is vastly improved this season.
Just because you get Trevor Lawrence doesn’t mean things will improve.
Lastly your “Hope” that the team hits rock bottom will force a change. There is no guarantee it will.
too some fans there may not be a difference between 1-15 and 4-12. We've been 4-12 ish for a few years now and its miserable.
So change is needed as is a spark. By ultimately losing some of these games, do we get the chance to really jump start the franchise?
People speak about Trevor Lawrence, could he be the next great franchise QB? If he is, does that change the course and direction of the Giants?
Or if they trade the #1 pick for an absolute haul of draft picks and then spend really wisely on FAs next year, can they go from 1-15 to 10-6 with Jones at the helm?
No one wants to lose, but I think fans are looking for something to look forward too. Not just beating up on WAS twice a year, a real long term successful plan. Which I don't think DG has shown fans yet.
"I hope we have the worst record in the league, so we can get X player."
Because if you have the worst record in the league, all of a sudden one player will turn you into a playoff team? Shit, instead of rooting for being bad enough to draft Lawrence, root that the Giants can win with Jones. Instead of rooting to be bad enough for Sewell, root that Gates, Thomas, and Peart solidify their positions on the OL with more experience.
So Jets fans should continue rooting for Darnold and wins? Just asking...
it's not that we are just rooting for a loss. We want some accountability. We were made promises 3 years ago that we were going to get out of "qb hell", and that we were going to rebuild the offensive line with "hog mollies" and we haven't. Daniel Jones is erratic and the line still blows.
I think GM/HC should go hand in hand. If one is let go, so should the other. Now we will end up with this awkward situation where maybe we win 3 games, but they don't want to can judge already because it was only his first season (and I think that's probably right), but if they can Gettleman they have to find a GM that is fine with Judge at HC for the next years. They won't get to pick "their guy".
SO what does that end up leading to? We fire Gettleman and we end up just hiring from within again, Abrams.
If we end up being #1 overall pick bad, or 1-15 bad, I think you could justify cleaning house and restarting with Lawrence.
I rather we get accountability and change then 3-4 shitty wins and a recycle.
just because you think a GM and HC should go hand in hand does not make it so. While I am not a DG fan, I am a Joe Judge Fan and players are developing. Jones is a young player and not all QBs are stars year 1-2. Especially with the skill positions we have. Defense is vastly improved this season.
Just because you get Trevor Lawrence doesn’t mean things will improve.
Lastly your “Hope” that the team hits rock bottom will force a change. There is no guarantee it will.
Well, what else can we do? We're not playing in the games, man.
Gettleman has shown that he's not the right guy for this job. Whatever happens, all I care about is Gettleman being gone but its not like I can do anything about it, and I'm a season ticket holder.
I'm not rooting for the Giants to lose. The silver lining in losing is that the regime that built this team will be shown the door, hopefully.
it's not that we are just rooting for a loss. We want some accountability. We were made promises 3 years ago that we were going to get out of "qb hell", and that we were going to rebuild the offensive line with "hog mollies" and we haven't. Daniel Jones is erratic and the line still blows.
I think GM/HC should go hand in hand. If one is let go, so should the other. Now we will end up with this awkward situation where maybe we win 3 games, but they don't want to can judge already because it was only his first season (and I think that's probably right), but if they can Gettleman they have to find a GM that is fine with Judge at HC for the next years. They won't get to pick "their guy".
SO what does that end up leading to? We fire Gettleman and we end up just hiring from within again, Abrams.
If we end up being #1 overall pick bad, or 1-15 bad, I think you could justify cleaning house and restarting with Lawrence.
I rather we get accountability and change then 3-4 shitty wins and a recycle.
just because you think a GM and HC should go hand in hand does not make it so. While I am not a DG fan, I am a Joe Judge Fan and players are developing. Jones is a young player and not all QBs are stars year 1-2. Especially with the skill positions we have. Defense is vastly improved this season.
Just because you get Trevor Lawrence doesn’t mean things will improve.
Lastly your “Hope” that the team hits rock bottom will force a change. There is no guarantee it will.
I like Judge, I'm just saying that I think generally the GM and HC should be married.
I mean, sure, if you get a good player you won't necessarily be better, but what kind of argument is that? If we had prime Peyton Manning, sure there is a chance we wouldn't be any better but wouldn't you want him anyway?
And there is no guarantee that it will... but, being 1-15 give you the better chance that change will be made.
Everything is obviously speculation but you eventually have to make some kind of assumption that if you end up with players who are projected to perform better, and you end up in a situation where management is not producing wins, then odds are you will make changes. 3-4 wins really doesn't do you anything.
You think a year later that meaningless win we had to the Redskins at the end of the season means anything to this group? Did Daniel Jones improve based on that? Well, it did push us out of Chase Young territory.
Sure because its an automatic that the guy you want at the top
it's about shocking ownership to the point where they have to actually look at how the organization is run and make deep, systemic alterations to the losing culture that has been established here.
"I hope we have the worst record in the league, so we can get X player."
Because if you have the worst record in the league, all of a sudden one player will turn you into a playoff team? Shit, instead of rooting for being bad enough to draft Lawrence, root that the Giants can win with Jones. Instead of rooting to be bad enough for Sewell, root that Gates, Thomas, and Peart solidify their positions on the OL with more experience.
Lawrence alone obviously will not fix the team. But it's not about just next year, it's about the entire next era of Giants football.
Eli alone did not fix the Giants, but he did set them up for the next 10 years. Now consider the fact Lawrence is a much better prospect than Eli.
It really isn't idiotic and fans hope for this in every sport. Knicks fans have been hoping for this for almost a decade.
Also, don't discount the value of having such a disastrous season that ownership steps off. It's pretty apparent it's going to take another disaster of a season to have that happen, and that's just as important.
The other x-factor is the Jets. The Jets are so fucking bad that every "win" reduces the chances the Giants even get close to Lawrence.
A win against the Skins is pointless. The Giants always beat the Skins, they've been shown to have no value even in terms of positive "building blocks"/team growth. It's just not an indicator of anything.
Nobody will care or remember that we beat WFT, just as nobody cares or remembers (for the most part) we beat the Skins last year. In fact, perversely, people still point to that 5 TD game against the Skins last year as some proof that Jones is "not the problem". I don't hate Jones and he's obviously in a terrible situation making him look worse than he is; but even with that knowledge, he hasn't shown enough to indicate he's the guy, so these pointless "gusty" wins against the hapless Skins/WFT are just mirages that should be completely discounted.
The fact it was Washington honestly made the win so unsatisfying. Like I said earlier in the thread, I was rooting like hell for them to beat Pittsburgh or Dallas.
Was always in the camp of fighting for every win possible but when SB went down and then looking over what is left on this roster I realized 80% of these guys won't be on this team next season anyways so what is the point. The Giants need a huge influx of talent and need to replace DG losing out this particular season could guarantee both I know some team will trade away their draft to move up to get TL so having the number 1 pick really could turn this franchise around this particular year.
What happens if Giants tank and Lawrence busts? Giants then tank for the next "cant miss"
I think the point is, how is going 4-12 or 5-11 and NOT having higher draft picks preferable? (Yes, there's an assumption in here that the 2020 NYG are not going on a run to make the playoffs a thing. If anyone believes that, god bless and good luck...)
A couple more short-lived smiles along the way?
Fans thinks about this stuff in many different ways. Doesn't make anyone better or worse than the others.
If a person believes that there is a generational QB prospect in the draft, despises the existing GM and the job he's done, and is disgusted with the way ownership has operated for the better part of a decade, it makes perfect sense that they would truly believe losing out is in the long term best interest of the org. It's really not that wild.
This team needs to win games period. They've had enough high draft picks, another top 10 pick won't help them get over the hump. The team has forgotten how to close out close games over the years. Judge has this team playing opponents tough, they needed to break through and need to continue to find a way to win games. It's the only way the franchise will get back to being competitive. Losing breeds more losing.
What happens if Giants tank and Lawrence busts? Giants then tank for the next "cant miss"
It's more likely than not that he will not bust, and even if he does, is the team even any worse off than they are today?
It's not like they've been able to do jack shit with the 2nd, 6th, or 4th picks in the draft so far.
Plus, your comment doesn't make as much sense as it sounds like it does. You can apply that to pretty much any player in the first round. E.g. What if Lawrence busts? I don't know, the same thing that happens if Sewell or Thomas busts. A better question is "what's the difference between a 2-14 season vs a 3-13 or 4-12 season?". There's no meaningful difference regarding the team's performance, but there are substantial differences in the player you'll get to pick.
Lawrence is less likely to bust and plays a more important position than the guys that will be taken after him.
That's the problem. Even bigger than getting Lawrence is getting the Maras out of personnel, Gettleman removed, and the scouts replaced. Finishing with the worst record guarantees that the Maras are shamed into making the needed systemic changes.
In this season, upgrading from Lawrence to Jones would be a bonus, but Riverboat Ron saw to it that the Giants won't be getting Lawrence.
What happens if Giants tank and Lawrence busts? Giants then tank for the next "cant miss"
It's more likely than not that he will not bust, and even if he does, is the team even any worse off than they are today?
It's not like they've been able to do jack shit with the 2nd, 6th, or 4th picks in the draft so far.
Plus, your comment doesn't make as much sense as it sounds like it does. You can apply that to pretty much any player in the first round. E.g. What if Lawrence busts? I don't know, the same thing that happens if Sewell or Thomas busts. A better question is "what's the difference between a 2-14 season vs a 3-13 or 4-12 season?". There's no meaningful difference regarding the team's performance, but there are substantial differences in the player you'll get to pick.
Lawrence is less likely to bust and plays a more important position than the guys that will be taken after him.
If they are in a position to get Lawrence (they won't be) then the bust factor becomes more remote by parlaying him into multiple high first round picks, aside form the obvious of filling the many holes that they have.
This team needs to win games period. They've had enough high draft picks, another top 10 pick won't help them get over the hump. The team has forgotten how to close out close games over the years. Judge has this team playing opponents tough, they needed to break through and need to continue to find a way to win games. It's the only way the franchise will get back to being competitive. Losing breeds more losing.
Winning games against the WFT does not count for anything. It doesn't change the culture.
If you were talking about beating the Steelers, or Cowboys, or Eagles, maybe that can change the culture. Beating the WFT has literally zero impact.
RE: RE: RE: For the people who say tank for lawrence
What happens if Giants tank and Lawrence busts? Giants then tank for the next "cant miss"
It's more likely than not that he will not bust, and even if he does, is the team even any worse off than they are today?
It's not like they've been able to do jack shit with the 2nd, 6th, or 4th picks in the draft so far.
Plus, your comment doesn't make as much sense as it sounds like it does. You can apply that to pretty much any player in the first round. E.g. What if Lawrence busts? I don't know, the same thing that happens if Sewell or Thomas busts. A better question is "what's the difference between a 2-14 season vs a 3-13 or 4-12 season?". There's no meaningful difference regarding the team's performance, but there are substantial differences in the player you'll get to pick.
Lawrence is less likely to bust and plays a more important position than the guys that will be taken after him.
If they are in a position to get Lawrence (they won't be) then the bust factor becomes more remote by parlaying him into multiple high first round picks, aside form the obvious of filling the many holes that they have.
Generally I'd agree with you but if DG is running the show (hopefully not) or the same scouting apparatus is in place, I actually think the bust factor is lower by hitching the wagon to the one consensus top prospect. That's how little confidence I have in the GM/scouts.... that I have more of a hope that Lawrence is just too good to actually be a bust then the Giants nailing multiple picks across the 1st and 2nd rounds.
this year 20-19 and other than a gift turnover their defense stopped us easily and their offense moved the ball methodically down the field on us after an ugly turnover by our “franchise” QB. Who has regressed in his 2nd year.
This team isn’t improving. We need more talent. And beating Washington a few times a year isn’t worth watching them pick ahead of us and get better talent. It’s dumb.
What’s more, these wins shouldn’t be used to justify keeping our leadership structure in place when we so badly need a change and I absolutely have seen this team and board using a 5-11 talked about as a step forward.
but you could argue the two players most responsible for our four Lombardi trophies are Eli and LT, drafted first overall and second overall, respectively (of course we traded up for Eli). Moral of the story is the Giants need their best players served up on a silver platter, and to their credit they'll take advantage of it when they get their hands on them. We're not a team that's gonna find a Tom Brady in the sixth round or establish a culture that leads to success year after year, decade after decade.
What did "winning" the Chase Young Bowl do for Washington? They still suck, worse than they did last year. And the Giants still got a blue chip at a position of need.
The Redskins with that defensive front + the addition of Lawerence b/c we keep being the WFT will lead to us falling further behind.
The only team the NYG can beat in the division is Washington - and they came within a failed 2-pt conversion with freakin' Kyle Allen as their QB from winning.
I don't get the joy of winning this game in the fashion in which they did it.
My depression as a Giants fan just hit a new floor.
This team has been languishing at the bottom of the league and fans want change. Going 8-8 is going to mean more of the same.
I am not a proponent of the tanking strategy because I can't root for the Giants to lose. But to not understand the point of view? You have to be a little dense.
people bitched last year that we lost the "Chase Young Sweepstakes". He's immediately made the Redskins into contenders, right??
Same theory if he were on the Giants. We're still a 1 win team.
I haven't seen anyone say that Lawrence (or Young), or really any player would change the entire team immediately. It's not about the next season, it's about the next 5-6 (and hopefully 8-10 if you're talking QB).
It's kind of a strawman as nobody is claiming one player will transform this team. There are far too many issues.
But it is inarguable that certain players are more likely to have a bigger impact going forward than others. Positional value also matters, as QBs and DEs *can* be transformative once they develop.
Plus, this is ignoring the fact that last second wins against WFT don't really do anything positive for the franchise.
that by winning fewer games year after year, Washington actually keeps making progress, year after year by virtue of picking the better players in the draft. #Leadership. This is why WFT fans are so satisfied and optimistic. What a lucky fanbase.
Stupid like a fox, obviously. This is much more likely than Dan Snyder being a Napolean shithead.
the best QB since Jesus Christ walked the Earth, get 5-6 years to rebuild the Giants, but Daniel Jones only gets 17 games?
Nobody gets 5-6 years to rebuild a team if they are playing poorly for most of the first two years. Same would apply to Lawrence. Wins and losses is not how you evaluate a QB on a rebuilding team.
Has been covered fully. The higher draft, GM change, embarrassing ownership into action are all why I've been rooting for losses. I was really worried they'd keep PS last year because they won a couple useless games, thankfully that didn't happen. I like JJ, and hope he weathers the losing, but the team needs more talent picked by a new GM.
that by winning fewer games year after year, Washington actually keeps making progress, year after year by virtue of picking the better players in the draft. #Leadership. This is why WFT fans are so satisfied and optimistic. What a lucky fanbase.
Stupid like a fox, obviously. This is much more likely than Dan Snyder being a Napolean shithead.
I think the theory is - at this point and moving forward - with the current roster configurations and front office/coaching staff - who's more likely to compete for a Super Bowl in the upcoming seasons?
The Redskins with that defensive front + the addition of Lawerence b/c we keep being the WFT will lead to us falling further behind.
The only team the NYG can beat in the division is Washington - and they came within a failed 2-pt conversion with freakin' Kyle Allen as their QB from winning.
I don't get the joy of winning this game in the fashion in which they did it.
My depression as a Giants fan just hit a new floor.
By that token, we were equally close to being 2-0 in the division.
starting in November, not October. Plus, I think wins are important for Judge when it comes to selling his program on the players. It seems like the players have bought in, but they're not going to stay invested in a no nonsense coach if he's not producing wins.
Maybe that...
I think GM/HC should go hand in hand. If one is let go, so should the other. Now we will end up with this awkward situation where maybe we win 3 games, but they don't want to can judge already because it was only his first season (and I think that's probably right), but if they can Gettleman they have to find a GM that is fine with Judge at HC for the next years. They won't get to pick "their guy".
SO what does that end up leading to? We fire Gettleman and we end up just hiring from within again, Abrams.
If we end up being #1 overall pick bad, or 1-15 bad, I think you could justify cleaning house and restarting with Lawrence.
I rather we get accountability and change then 3-4 shitty wins and a recycle.
Revenge for Eli.
Having a personal dislike for Gettlman (he is a douchebag) and knowing he will leave your organization which you loved since a kid and he ruined.
Um actually rooting for a team that doesn't look like some 90s expansion team. They will never win anything with these guys. The worst that can happen is they win a few games and feeding into the "just give it argument". It almost guarantees shit football for like 17 years. better to hit rock bottom and be done with it.
The big counterpoint this year though is Judge. I like him and don't want him to get fired, so seeing him get wins is important.
The other thing is that at this point, we know wins against the Redskins don't prove anything or show any growth, etc.
You bet your ass I wanted to them to beat Dallas, or Pitt.
Because if you have the worst record in the league, all of a sudden one player will turn you into a playoff team? Shit, instead of rooting for being bad enough to draft Lawrence, root that the Giants can win with Jones. Instead of rooting to be bad enough for Sewell, root that Gates, Thomas, and Peart solidify their positions on the OL with more experience.
Same this year, while I don't think we'll be in a position to get Lawrence, but 2OA puts you in that drivers seat to take Sewell, or Chase, or Parsons, and would put us in a better position to trade down and accumulate more assets.
I understand the need for wins, and the need for this group to learn that mentality, but I think at this point the talent disparity needs to be addressed in the worst way for this team to take those next steps. Hitting on Thomas/Peart would of course do wonders, but now we need game changers.
Judge will probably turn out to be a dud like every other BB offspring, but you never know.
So even though I'm not convinced DJ is the one, I still have hope for JJ.
I had hope for DJ last year, but I've seen enough of him and his turn overs that he is not the one.
I think GM/HC should go hand in hand. If one is let go, so should the other. Now we will end up with this awkward situation where maybe we win 3 games, but they don't want to can judge already because it was only his first season (and I think that's probably right), but if they can Gettleman they have to find a GM that is fine with Judge at HC for the next years. They won't get to pick "their guy".
SO what does that end up leading to? We fire Gettleman and we end up just hiring from within again, Abrams.
If we end up being #1 overall pick bad, or 1-15 bad, I think you could justify cleaning house and restarting with Lawrence.
I rather we get accountability and change then 3-4 shitty wins and a recycle.
Just because you get Trevor Lawrence doesn’t mean things will improve.
Lastly your “Hope” that the team hits rock bottom will force a change. There is no guarantee it will.
So change is needed as is a spark. By ultimately losing some of these games, do we get the chance to really jump start the franchise?
People speak about Trevor Lawrence, could he be the next great franchise QB? If he is, does that change the course and direction of the Giants?
Or if they trade the #1 pick for an absolute haul of draft picks and then spend really wisely on FAs next year, can they go from 1-15 to 10-6 with Jones at the helm?
No one wants to lose, but I think fans are looking for something to look forward too. Not just beating up on WAS twice a year, a real long term successful plan. Which I don't think DG has shown fans yet.
Because if you have the worst record in the league, all of a sudden one player will turn you into a playoff team? Shit, instead of rooting for being bad enough to draft Lawrence, root that the Giants can win with Jones. Instead of rooting to be bad enough for Sewell, root that Gates, Thomas, and Peart solidify their positions on the OL with more experience.
So Jets fans should continue rooting for Darnold and wins? Just asking...
Quote:
it's not that we are just rooting for a loss. We want some accountability. We were made promises 3 years ago that we were going to get out of "qb hell", and that we were going to rebuild the offensive line with "hog mollies" and we haven't. Daniel Jones is erratic and the line still blows.
I think GM/HC should go hand in hand. If one is let go, so should the other. Now we will end up with this awkward situation where maybe we win 3 games, but they don't want to can judge already because it was only his first season (and I think that's probably right), but if they can Gettleman they have to find a GM that is fine with Judge at HC for the next years. They won't get to pick "their guy".
SO what does that end up leading to? We fire Gettleman and we end up just hiring from within again, Abrams.
If we end up being #1 overall pick bad, or 1-15 bad, I think you could justify cleaning house and restarting with Lawrence.
I rather we get accountability and change then 3-4 shitty wins and a recycle.
just because you think a GM and HC should go hand in hand does not make it so. While I am not a DG fan, I am a Joe Judge Fan and players are developing. Jones is a young player and not all QBs are stars year 1-2. Especially with the skill positions we have. Defense is vastly improved this season.
Just because you get Trevor Lawrence doesn’t mean things will improve.
Lastly your “Hope” that the team hits rock bottom will force a change. There is no guarantee it will.
Well, what else can we do? We're not playing in the games, man.
Gettleman has shown that he's not the right guy for this job. Whatever happens, all I care about is Gettleman being gone but its not like I can do anything about it, and I'm a season ticket holder.
I'm not rooting for the Giants to lose. The silver lining in losing is that the regime that built this team will be shown the door, hopefully.
Quote:
it's not that we are just rooting for a loss. We want some accountability. We were made promises 3 years ago that we were going to get out of "qb hell", and that we were going to rebuild the offensive line with "hog mollies" and we haven't. Daniel Jones is erratic and the line still blows.
I think GM/HC should go hand in hand. If one is let go, so should the other. Now we will end up with this awkward situation where maybe we win 3 games, but they don't want to can judge already because it was only his first season (and I think that's probably right), but if they can Gettleman they have to find a GM that is fine with Judge at HC for the next years. They won't get to pick "their guy".
SO what does that end up leading to? We fire Gettleman and we end up just hiring from within again, Abrams.
If we end up being #1 overall pick bad, or 1-15 bad, I think you could justify cleaning house and restarting with Lawrence.
I rather we get accountability and change then 3-4 shitty wins and a recycle.
just because you think a GM and HC should go hand in hand does not make it so. While I am not a DG fan, I am a Joe Judge Fan and players are developing. Jones is a young player and not all QBs are stars year 1-2. Especially with the skill positions we have. Defense is vastly improved this season.
Just because you get Trevor Lawrence doesn’t mean things will improve.
Lastly your “Hope” that the team hits rock bottom will force a change. There is no guarantee it will.
I like Judge, I'm just saying that I think generally the GM and HC should be married.
I mean, sure, if you get a good player you won't necessarily be better, but what kind of argument is that? If we had prime Peyton Manning, sure there is a chance we wouldn't be any better but wouldn't you want him anyway?
And there is no guarantee that it will... but, being 1-15 give you the better chance that change will be made.
Everything is obviously speculation but you eventually have to make some kind of assumption that if you end up with players who are projected to perform better, and you end up in a situation where management is not producing wins, then odds are you will make changes. 3-4 wins really doesn't do you anything.
You think a year later that meaningless win we had to the Redskins at the end of the season means anything to this group? Did Daniel Jones improve based on that? Well, it did push us out of Chase Young territory.
Because if you have the worst record in the league, all of a sudden one player will turn you into a playoff team? Shit, instead of rooting for being bad enough to draft Lawrence, root that the Giants can win with Jones. Instead of rooting to be bad enough for Sewell, root that Gates, Thomas, and Peart solidify their positions on the OL with more experience.
Lawrence alone obviously will not fix the team. But it's not about just next year, it's about the entire next era of Giants football.
Eli alone did not fix the Giants, but he did set them up for the next 10 years. Now consider the fact Lawrence is a much better prospect than Eli.
It really isn't idiotic and fans hope for this in every sport. Knicks fans have been hoping for this for almost a decade.
Also, don't discount the value of having such a disastrous season that ownership steps off. It's pretty apparent it's going to take another disaster of a season to have that happen, and that's just as important.
The other x-factor is the Jets. The Jets are so fucking bad that every "win" reduces the chances the Giants even get close to Lawrence.
A win against the Skins is pointless. The Giants always beat the Skins, they've been shown to have no value even in terms of positive "building blocks"/team growth. It's just not an indicator of anything.
Nobody will care or remember that we beat WFT, just as nobody cares or remembers (for the most part) we beat the Skins last year. In fact, perversely, people still point to that 5 TD game against the Skins last year as some proof that Jones is "not the problem". I don't hate Jones and he's obviously in a terrible situation making him look worse than he is; but even with that knowledge, he hasn't shown enough to indicate he's the guy, so these pointless "gusty" wins against the hapless Skins/WFT are just mirages that should be completely discounted.
The fact it was Washington honestly made the win so unsatisfying. Like I said earlier in the thread, I was rooting like hell for them to beat Pittsburgh or Dallas.
I think the point is, how is going 4-12 or 5-11 and NOT having higher draft picks preferable? (Yes, there's an assumption in here that the 2020 NYG are not going on a run to make the playoffs a thing. If anyone believes that, god bless and good luck...)
A couple more short-lived smiles along the way?
Fans thinks about this stuff in many different ways. Doesn't make anyone better or worse than the others.
If a person believes that there is a generational QB prospect in the draft, despises the existing GM and the job he's done, and is disgusted with the way ownership has operated for the better part of a decade, it makes perfect sense that they would truly believe losing out is in the long term best interest of the org. It's really not that wild.
It's not like they've been able to do jack shit with the 2nd, 6th, or 4th picks in the draft so far.
Plus, your comment doesn't make as much sense as it sounds like it does. You can apply that to pretty much any player in the first round. E.g. What if Lawrence busts? I don't know, the same thing that happens if Sewell or Thomas busts. A better question is "what's the difference between a 2-14 season vs a 3-13 or 4-12 season?". There's no meaningful difference regarding the team's performance, but there are substantial differences in the player you'll get to pick.
Lawrence is less likely to bust and plays a more important position than the guys that will be taken after him.
In this season, upgrading from Lawrence to Jones would be a bonus, but Riverboat Ron saw to it that the Giants won't be getting Lawrence.
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What happens if Giants tank and Lawrence busts? Giants then tank for the next "cant miss"
It's more likely than not that he will not bust, and even if he does, is the team even any worse off than they are today?
It's not like they've been able to do jack shit with the 2nd, 6th, or 4th picks in the draft so far.
Plus, your comment doesn't make as much sense as it sounds like it does. You can apply that to pretty much any player in the first round. E.g. What if Lawrence busts? I don't know, the same thing that happens if Sewell or Thomas busts. A better question is "what's the difference between a 2-14 season vs a 3-13 or 4-12 season?". There's no meaningful difference regarding the team's performance, but there are substantial differences in the player you'll get to pick.
Lawrence is less likely to bust and plays a more important position than the guys that will be taken after him.
If they are in a position to get Lawrence (they won't be) then the bust factor becomes more remote by parlaying him into multiple high first round picks, aside form the obvious of filling the many holes that they have.
If you were talking about beating the Steelers, or Cowboys, or Eagles, maybe that can change the culture. Beating the WFT has literally zero impact.
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In comment 15014155 nygiants16 said:
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What happens if Giants tank and Lawrence busts? Giants then tank for the next "cant miss"
It's more likely than not that he will not bust, and even if he does, is the team even any worse off than they are today?
It's not like they've been able to do jack shit with the 2nd, 6th, or 4th picks in the draft so far.
Plus, your comment doesn't make as much sense as it sounds like it does. You can apply that to pretty much any player in the first round. E.g. What if Lawrence busts? I don't know, the same thing that happens if Sewell or Thomas busts. A better question is "what's the difference between a 2-14 season vs a 3-13 or 4-12 season?". There's no meaningful difference regarding the team's performance, but there are substantial differences in the player you'll get to pick.
Lawrence is less likely to bust and plays a more important position than the guys that will be taken after him.
If they are in a position to get Lawrence (they won't be) then the bust factor becomes more remote by parlaying him into multiple high first round picks, aside form the obvious of filling the many holes that they have.
This is the kind of stuff that keeps an organization at a stand still, these kinds of processes are the root of a franchise doomed.
This team isn’t improving. We need more talent. And beating Washington a few times a year isn’t worth watching them pick ahead of us and get better talent. It’s dumb.
What’s more, these wins shouldn’t be used to justify keeping our leadership structure in place when we so badly need a change and I absolutely have seen this team and board using a 5-11 talked about as a step forward.
What did "winning" the Chase Young Bowl do for Washington? They still suck, worse than they did last year. And the Giants still got a blue chip at a position of need.
The Redskins with that defensive front + the addition of Lawerence b/c we keep being the WFT will lead to us falling further behind.
The only team the NYG can beat in the division is Washington - and they came within a failed 2-pt conversion with freakin' Kyle Allen as their QB from winning.
I don't get the joy of winning this game in the fashion in which they did it.
My depression as a Giants fan just hit a new floor.
Same theory if he were on the Giants. We're still a 1 win team.
I am not a proponent of the tanking strategy because I can't root for the Giants to lose. But to not understand the point of view? You have to be a little dense.
Same theory if he were on the Giants. We're still a 1 win team.
It's kind of a strawman as nobody is claiming one player will transform this team. There are far too many issues.
But it is inarguable that certain players are more likely to have a bigger impact going forward than others. Positional value also matters, as QBs and DEs *can* be transformative once they develop.
Plus, this is ignoring the fact that last second wins against WFT don't really do anything positive for the franchise.
This is the kind of stuff that keeps an organization at a stand still, these kinds of processes are the root of a franchise doomed.
Stupid like a fox, obviously. This is much more likely than Dan Snyder being a Napolean shithead.
Nobody gets 5-6 years to rebuild a team if they are playing poorly for most of the first two years. Same would apply to Lawrence. Wins and losses is not how you evaluate a QB on a rebuilding team.
Stupid like a fox, obviously. This is much more likely than Dan Snyder being a Napolean shithead.
I think the theory is - at this point and moving forward - with the current roster configurations and front office/coaching staff - who's more likely to compete for a Super Bowl in the upcoming seasons?
The Redskins with that defensive front + the addition of Lawerence b/c we keep being the WFT will lead to us falling further behind.
The only team the NYG can beat in the division is Washington - and they came within a failed 2-pt conversion with freakin' Kyle Allen as their QB from winning.
I don't get the joy of winning this game in the fashion in which they did it.
My depression as a Giants fan just hit a new floor.
By that token, we were equally close to being 2-0 in the division.
Same theory if he were on the Giants. We're still a 1 win team.
See a lot of posters still bitching about winning games and losing Chase Young. They're wrong?
I kind of like this view. Well done.
I’ll always take the wins. Seven years of optimal draft positions have gotten us nowhere.