Out of the 30, here is where Daniel Jones ranks...
Comp. Pct - 25th out of 30.
TD passes - 30th out of 30.
Yds per Att. - 26th out of 30.
QB Rating - 29th out of 30. (only Sam Darnold has a lower rating)
The main question is, what do you guys think is the reason behind these poor stats?
Is it a poor system? I've been seeing Twitter feeds pop up from guys that cover the Giants calling out the plays being called and routes being run.
Is it lack of weapons? No Saquon hurts for sure, along with not having Shep out there, and Golden Tate being nonexistent.
Is it a subpar OL? Giants are consistently facing 3rd and longs due to poor run blocking, and in doing so teams are pinning their ears back and getting after the QB. He's got no time back there.
Frustating to watch a QB that performed in his rookie season (outside of the fumbles) regress the way Jones has. Hopefully an answer is found as I'd much rather build around Jones than have to use another early pick on a QB and blow everything up again...
Jones may be a bust or a franchise QB. Hard to tell this early under these circumstances.
Hey Victor, not saying he sucks, just trying to figure out what has led to his regression. It's a legitimate conversation to have. Any thoughts besides your basic "here's another dumb post" that you tend to use a lot.
This season Jones' numbers are bottom 5 and he has played that way. There isn't too much to get excited about yet. Some folks look at the odd good play and think he has the goods based on that. But all QBs have oddd good plays. Mariota and Trubisky had 4 TD games. But they stink because they have too many bad plays. Especially for a QB like Jones, consistency is key. He doesn't have it and I think he is unlikely to ever be a top QB in this league.
The kid needs to play better. A lot better. Anyone saying otherwise is a homer.
There’s still 10 games left this season. Maybe with a returning Shepard and an improving OL, Jones can get it together a bit.
& he has to cut down on the turnovers. If not, he'll be a backup before long.
Some of the power aspects with the running game and OL have been better but they need to incorporate more of the quick passing game they had last year.
The utilization of 1 of the 2 weapons they have (Engram) is an abject joke. His issue from day 1 has never been performing it's been staying healthy. The first catch he made yesterday and athleticism he showed on his rushing TD make it clear he is still the same talent he has always been. He's healthy. there is no excuse for his volume (targets, yards per game, yards per catch) to be half of what they were just last year.
Stay balanced with critiques.
He's going to get more time - definitely the rest of this season, and probably all of next season as well regardless of who the new gm is next season (and if things improve even a little, probably another season after that). This is the unavoidable dance that unfolds when a team uses a high draft pick on a qb that does not work out. These types of qbs are afforded every opportunity in the world even when the writing is already clearly on the wall and by the time they are put out of their misery, the fans and organization look up and 3-5 seasons have been lost. We're not quite at this point yet with Jones, but it definitely seems like the most likely outcome at the moment.
There is no doubt talent on this team is a problem.
And also, Jones has not demonstrated much if any development from year one to year two. In some ways he seems like a *lesser* player.
You absolutely can gage a quarterback independent of the talent around him. This is what the NFL did when scouting Jones at Duke, another team with subpar offensive talent. And what they did with Josh Allen at Wyoming. Another team with nonexistent NFL talent. Scouts do this all the time. How well is the QB taking care of his responsibilities and executing his specific role. The results of the pass are less important than the execution of the pass.
2) OL that is just starting to not play horribly
3) No one that can get open in this system (watch an All 22 if you can)
4) The loss of Barkley
5) A system which emphasizes underneath routes over vertical routes
If #2 can get fixed here soon, if Shepherd comes back and helps out with #3, then maybe #5 changes as does #1.
Lots of ifs in there, though.
There is no doubt talent on this team is a problem.
And also, Jones has not demonstrated much if any development from year one to year two. In some ways he seems like a *lesser* player.
You absolutely can gage a quarterback independent of the talent around him. This is what the NFL did when scouting Jones at Duke, another team with subpar offensive talent. And what they did with Josh Allen at Wyoming. Another team with nonexistent NFL talent. Scouts do this all the time. How well is the QB taking care of his responsibilities and executing his specific role. The results of the pass are less important than the execution of the pass.
Yes. It seems like we are already having the same conversations about Jones that we were having about Eli in 2018-2019 and we all know how that one turned out.
There is no doubt talent on this team is a problem.
And also, Jones has not demonstrated much if any development from year one to year two. In some ways he seems like a *lesser* player.
You absolutely can gage a quarterback independent of the talent around him. This is what the NFL did when scouting Jones at Duke, another team with subpar offensive talent. And what they did with Josh Allen at Wyoming. Another team with nonexistent NFL talent. Scouts do this all the time. How well is the QB taking care of his responsibilities and executing his specific role. The results of the pass are less important than the execution of the pass.
Thank you! Yes, it is possible to evaluate an individual player by watching him, even if the talent around him sucks. Does he make the right decision with where to go with the ball? Does he make a good decision when the pocket breaks down? Does he deliver an accurate pass?
You can't use stats to make that analysis, you have to use your eyes. Yes, the talent around Jones is abysmal and almost nobody would be pulling out wins with this wretched cast of characters. But he is contributing to the problem in many cases also. Poor talent does not absolve him of his own poor play.
Garrett (play calling, system)
Lack of talent
Quarterback (I listed quarterback separate from "talent" because quarterbacks have a lot of impact within an offense)
Lack of preparation time due to unusual circumstances
New systems on offense and defense which impacts players play speed and execution
These are some of the most common explanations, and all are valid in my opinion. In my view all of these possible explanations are impacting the team and contributing to what we see on the field. Focusing on one factor as the reason isn't likely in my view. The question is, which factors are contributing more to the results than the others.
Remember, as an example, when we moved to a WCO and Eli's completion percentage went up nearly double digits, but overall offensive production went down?
I coukd be wrong but i dont think they were running Garrett's scheme the last few years in Dallas
Yes we won yesterday but what did we really show or prove that Allen is the worst QB we have faced not much else. just I just watched NFL week in 60 one of the main words used was rookie why don't we hear that more about this team? We will be in the rebuilding and contender position again next year with the same results as this year why because the same lie will be told once again. Yes I believe DJ is a QB we can build around but that does not mean we should not develop a replacement for him he's presently our offense can he survive 16 games the odds ain't good.
Raid every PS in the NFL were showing that's this team ability level but were playing journey men vets why because the BS lies.
Is in a new offense.
Has played some of the toughest defenses in the league.
Has little talent on offense.
Has no time to throw.
I’m starting to think people aren’t watching (b/c it is depressing).
Things don’t happen in a Vacuum. If he was a starting pitcher I would get it. If he was a point guard, and struggling, I’d get it. In football. context is everything.
Yes we won yesterday but what did we really show or prove that Allen is the worst QB we have faced not much else. just I just watched NFL week in 60 one of the main words used was rookie why don't we hear that more about this team? We will be in the rebuilding and contender position again next year with the same results as this year why because the same lie will be told once again. Yes I believe DJ is a QB we can build around but that does not mean we should not develop a replacement for him he's presently our offense can he survive 16 games the odds ain't good.
Raid every PS in the NFL were showing that's this team ability level but were playing journey men vets why because the BS lies.
If you are only what your record says you are then your whole second paragraph explaining about WFT is moot, because that record is 1-0.
Thank you.
Garrett (play calling, system)
Lack of talent
Quarterback (I listed quarterback separate from "talent" because quarterbacks have a lot of impact within an offense)
Lack of preparation time due to unusual circumstances
New systems on offense and defense which impacts players play speed and execution
These are some of the most common explanations, and all are valid in my opinion. In my view all of these possible explanations are impacting the team and contributing to what we see on the field. Focusing on one factor as the reason isn't likely in my view. The question is, which factors are contributing more to the results than the others.
Well said, crick. It is not just one thing contributing to the putrid offense. All of the things you listed are factors. I also agree with the posters suggesting Jones can be evaluated in spite of the talent around him.
Is in a new offense.
Has played some of the toughest defenses in the league.
Has little talent on offense.
Has no time to throw.
I’m starting to think people aren’t watching (b/c it is depressing).
Things don’t happen in a Vacuum. If he was a starting pitcher I would get it. If he was a point guard, and struggling, I’d get it. In football. context is everything.
He was in a new offense last year too. Why is it an excuse now?
"Had no time to throw" gets thrown around much too easily. You would think he's getting mauled on every play and that's simply not the case. This is not the worst Giants OL of recent years at all.
The focus on eliminating turnovers has made DJ a bit gun shy I think. He seems to be coached to look for the safe throw rather than taking a chance and letting his playmakers make plays.
Leads to longer, safer drives that stall in the red zone.
1. Garrett's offense is poorly adapted to the modern game
2. The surrounding talent is poor
Both are difficult to dispute.
However, look at Jones himself and the traits he brings to the quarterback position:
Pros
- Plus athlete with good running ability
- Accurate thrower of the football
- Very tough
Cons
- Tendency to lock onto his first read
- Poor feel for the pocket
- Poor ball security in the pocket
Do the 'cons' seem like issues that would be corrected in a different offense or with better surrounding talent? I'm not confident of that. I think the key is to design the offense toward his 'pros' and away from his 'cons'. Do that, and I think the productivity goes up...particularly in the red zone where he is struggling mightily (Giants are 31st in the NFL in red zone efficiency).
A poster mentioned a while back that Jones should be used the same way Cam Newton was early this season in New England...that poster was absolutely spot on. I don't think this can be said with enough emphasis:
[b]Daniel Jones is an asset outside the pocket, and a liability in it. It is incumbent on the coaching staff to either design the offense around his strengths or get a quarterback that fits the offense Garrett wants to run.[\b]
If Garrett wanted to run this offense, we should have signed Andy Dalton in the offseason - we'd be 3-3 right now instead of 1-5.
Barkley going down was the nail.
Not because of how good he is, but because they didn't have any other RBs prepared to carry the load behind him.
Gallman remains the most useless player on the roster. The #2 RB who apparently cannot play, even if Barkley goes down permanently. Great.
Giants better invest in a really good backup next spring. Probably gonna need him.
Sure. Just like when we moved on from Eli we'd be much better....
Sure. Just like when we moved on from Eli we'd be much better....
We could have been if we hadn't hired an incompetent fool to be the GM. But even you've probably come around on that by now. If you have, congrats on finally joining the real world.
personally I don;t know if the cons can be fixed... it seems like those are issues that a QB can learn or mature to do better as they gain experience (as opposed to toughness or accuracy, which you either have or you don't)... but I can't say that for sure.
again, IMO... there is enough to build around with DJ, as long as we accept it is highly unlikely he will ever be league MVP. Many have used the Tannehill comparison, which I am ok with.
Do you think that little Brady/Brees/Ben slide and step up in the pocket thing can be taught — or is that just an intuitive skill? That’s what concerns me most, and seems like one of the biggest differences between the top guys and everyone else.
1. Garrett's offense is poorly adapted to the modern game
2. The surrounding talent is poor
Both are difficult to dispute.
However, look at Jones himself and the traits he brings to the quarterback position:
Pros
- Plus athlete with good running ability
- Accurate thrower of the football
- Very tough
Cons
- Tendency to lock onto his first read
- Poor feel for the pocket
- Poor ball security in the pocket
Do the 'cons' seem like issues that would be corrected in a different offense or with better surrounding talent? I'm not confident of that. I think the key is to design the offense toward his 'pros' and away from his 'cons'. Do that, and I think the productivity goes up...particularly in the red zone where he is struggling mightily (Giants are 31st in the NFL in red zone efficiency).
A poster mentioned a while back that Jones should be used the same way Cam Newton was early this season in New England...that poster was absolutely spot on. I don't think this can be said with enough emphasis:
[b]Daniel Jones is an asset outside the pocket, and a liability in it. It is incumbent on the coaching staff to either design the offense around his strengths or get a quarterback that fits the offense Garrett wants to run.[\b]
If Garrett wanted to run this offense, we should have signed Andy Dalton in the offseason - we'd be 3-3 right now instead of 1-5.
GoTerps - I agree with everything you said. I also think DJ looks even more uncomfortable this year than he did last year with the same crappy players that he had around last year. I would rather live or die by DJs strengths. At least at year's end I personally would have my answer with DJ, not that means anything to anyone else. But I think 8 more games of this game plan I will only learn what I already know, this is a terrible game plan for Daniel Jones as a QB.
Quote:
He has no elite level traits. What concerns me is how slow he diagnoses coverages and goes through his progressions (when he’s not locked into his first read). It concerns me because I’m not sure that can be taught or improved with snaps/experience.
Do you think that little Brady/Brees/Ben slide and step up in the pocket thing can be taught — or is that just an intuitive skill? That’s what concerns me most, and seems like one of the biggest differences between the top guys and everyone else.
Sure. You get an interior line that can pass block and you can move up into the pocket. That's the biggest issue right now, he is shell shocked about his ability to move up in pocket. Go look at the TB game from the last year.
I think the two biggest issues he has right now are he's so cognizant of not turning the ball over its turning into hesitancy, combined with the fact he has little trust in his WRs and line. As the line gets better hopefully that goes away with some games under the belt. Still think we see him hesistant to pull the trigger considering what our run game and WRs look like it. Needs to trust a bunch of scrubs to make plays in tight windows. Good luck Daniel.
If Garrett wanted to run this offense, we should have signed Andy Dalton in the offseason - we'd be 3-3 right now instead of 1-5.
Let's revisit this in 6 weeks and see if Dalton can even go 3-3 with Dallas.
Quote:
He has no elite level traits. What concerns me is how slow he diagnoses coverages and goes through his progressions (when he’s not locked into his first read). It concerns me because I’m not sure that can be taught or improved with snaps/experience.
Do you think that little Brady/Brees/Ben slide and step up in the pocket thing can be taught — or is that just an intuitive skill? That’s what concerns me most, and seems like one of the biggest differences between the top guys and everyone else.
He has been way better at that this season but it hasnt amounted to anythin because of the routes we are running. When the receivers are all funning curls/condbacks/out routes buying time doesn't help at all, especiallly if they are all breaking at the same time. There are no progressions to go through and buying time in the pocket doesn't give the receivers any chance to shake free on a broken play because thdy afe all facing the LOS. It's a first read play at the sticks almost every time.
2. New system and not everyone is on the same page so mistakes and so forth.
3. OL is new and learning and has journeyman Fleming at RT; average at best LG Hernandez; brand new OC Gates who is improving quickly so a positive; a rookie LT Thomas who is struggling though Peart at least looked decent; and, a "likely has been injured" RG in Zeitler who just isn't the guy he was two or more years ago. The OL has Jones under duress most every snap though again it has improved.
4. Injuries to Shepard and aging of Tate hurt too.
Bottom line is I think Jones is better than these stats but he is so so limited by the lack of talent around him. I do believe he will play "better" as the OL gels and the players get the system down but there isn't enough around him to make him really step up. Our only hope is if say Engram got his head out of his ass with his speed.
We will purge this offense in the off-season of Solder's contract; keep Fleming as a swing tackle; cut Zeitler if he doesn't improve; cut Tate for sure as he just isn't the guy he was and we should never have signed him as a UFA to "replace" OBJ - a knee jerk reaction to compensate a hole at WR; and, whomever else the coaches deem unfit for the future.
We must be 100% sure D. Jones is our QB and we must be 100% sure the OL is on the team making it less of a draft priority and UFA priority:
Peart-Hernandez-Gates-Lemieux-Thomas for 2021 perhaps?
Our biggest off-season needs will be ER, WR, CB, perhaps Safety and OL depth.
I hope we beat the Eagles and begin to develop a "winning" state of mind. 2 - 5 sucks but every team in our division has holes so WIN and stay in the race!