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Jamison Crowder should have been signed instead of Tate

Sonic Youth : 10/19/2020 10:41 am
The Jets are just as bad as the Giants, but at least Crowder looks like a serviceable player who can get separation and catch the ball. He signed with the Jets in 2019 for $17 mil guaranteed. Plus, he's significantly younger.

Neither was any type of replacement for OBJ, but at least Crowder would have had more viability going forward as a useful piece due to his age.

IIRC, Tate had a pretty bad half-season with the Eagles in 2018. Not sure what made him a target over Crowder. They both have the same archetype as a player, and if the Giants actually planned on retaining a player for more than just a 1/2 season bandaid, Crowder should have been the one they signed.

Nobody was really clamoring for him so this is actually not a "beat up DG" thread, as there are plenty of other awful decisions to get on his case about. But in retrospect, this would have been a better move that might have actually had enough of an impact this season to lead to some wins against Dallas or Pittsburgh.

At this point, anything is better than Tate.
ha I just said this on another thread - but I actually think Tate is  
Eric on Li : 10/19/2020 10:45 am : link
getting unfairly shit on. He is catching 80% of his targets right now which is a very good number. It would be his career best by about 10%.

The issue is the targets that are going his way and the fact that this offense is in the stone age. They played a team giving up more big plays than anyone yesterday and ATTEMPTED 1 pass over 20 yards which they completed.
yes  
UConn4523 : 10/19/2020 10:47 am : link
fresh off his 388 yard season we should have signed Crowder, definitively, and without question.

Jesus Christ.
RE: ha I just said this on another thread - but I actually think Tate is  
jlukes : 10/19/2020 10:48 am : link
In comment 15014253 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
getting unfairly shit on. He is catching 80% of his targets right now which is a very good number. It would be his career best by about 10%.

The issue is the targets that are going his way and the fact that this offense is in the stone age. They played a team giving up more big plays than anyone yesterday and ATTEMPTED 1 pass over 20 yards which they completed.


Eric - he’s not getting targets because he can’t get open. He has no more suddenness and is undersized. Therefore, he is never open.

I know you want to blame everything on coaching, but your take here is pretty off
Also, please tell me more about taking deep shots  
jlukes : 10/19/2020 10:50 am : link
With awful or injured WRs and a defense that played a deep zone with a only a 4 man rush (because their defensive line is so good)

Good lord
RE: yes  
Eric on Li : 10/19/2020 10:50 am : link
In comment 15014254 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
fresh off his 388 yard season we should have signed Crowder, definitively, and without question.

Jesus Christ.


Those 388 yards were in 9 games. The 2 years prior he'd had ~800 yards each year. As he did last year with the Jets. When he's played he has always produced. The injuries were a drawback relative to Tate who has always been healthy but he was 5 years younger so it was a viable discussion either way at the time (and it was discussed then).
Jlukes - can Engram also not get open?  
Eric on Li : 10/19/2020 10:55 am : link
is he cooked too? He looked pretty athletic to me on his rushing touchdown and on the 1 downfield pass he's gotten thrown his way pretty much all year yesterday on the first series.
yeah he was injured  
UConn4523 : 10/19/2020 10:56 am : link
and prior to that he wasn't a guy I'd ever say definitely that "we should have signed". 2019 Tate had a higher YPC than Crowder's best season.

Good for Crowder to play better than he has historically, but he's not a guy i'm going to look back on and wish we signed, its disingenuous.
RE: Also, please tell me more about taking deep shots  
Eric on Li : 10/19/2020 10:59 am : link
In comment 15014260 jlukes said:
Quote:
With awful or injured WRs and a defense that played a deep zone with a only a 4 man rush (because their defensive line is so good)

Good lord


This looks like separation to me. And awfully similar to plays we've seen Engram make regularly whenever he was healthy prior to this year.
https://www.giants.com/video/daniel-jones-rolls-out-fires-21-yard-dart-to-engram-down-sideline - ( New Window )
RE: Also, please tell me more about taking deep shots  
fireitup77 : 10/19/2020 11:05 am : link
In comment 15014260 jlukes said:
Quote:
With awful or injured WRs and a defense that played a deep zone with a only a 4 man rush (because their defensive line is so good)

Good lord


Lukes, it's not about taking shots down field. Making the defense cover down field opens things up short. Garrett's route concepts have everyone running 10 yard routes and cutting at the same time. There is no progression.

They do run plays with receivers running deep routes. They are usually successful with the ball going to the middle to short receiver. They just don't run it enough.
RE: yeah he was injured  
Sonic Youth : 10/19/2020 11:17 am : link
In comment 15014274 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and prior to that he wasn't a guy I'd ever say definitely that "we should have signed". 2019 Tate had a higher YPC than Crowder's best season.

Good for Crowder to play better than he has historically, but he's not a guy i'm going to look back on and wish we signed, its disingenuous.
Fair enough, I went and looked at Tate's stats and he did play very well in Detroit. It's more the age that stuck out to me -- however, after thinking about it more, it's not like the team could have anticipated Shepard being THIS injured, Barley being out, and Engram regressing the way he did (plus not adding any additional WR talent besides Slayton).
In my defense though  
Sonic Youth : 10/19/2020 11:18 am : link
Tate *was* awful on the Eagles. 30 receptions in 8 games, 9.8 ypc. That was half a season and Tate was 30. There's two ways to look at it: he couldn't gel on a new team, or he was starting to lose it. Wish they hedged their bet a little better.

But as I alluded to, I'm not killing DG for this move per se. Additionally, I never said "definitely" -- just that in hindsight, I think he'd be better resource allocation and he definitely had a much better chance to be part of the team long term.
semi-hot take - Shepard was a worse investment than Tate  
Eric on Li : 10/19/2020 11:25 am : link
obviously that's mostly injury related and there's always a chance he finds a way to stay healthy and produce but he was a guy they probably could have moved for a decent pick as they made the decision to enter the rebuild but instead they extended him early to pay him more than they needed to and he's given them 2 non-productive seasons.

At least Tate played well last year and can stay on the field.
If you..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/19/2020 11:27 am : link
wanted a Jets WR, Robbie Anderson was the guy. Of course, he's got dome off the field baggage and rumors are he quit on the Jets, but if you want to throw darts, you probably hit the wrong Jet.

Probably should have kept the dart in the case.
Tate was a bad signing  
Mike from Ohio : 10/19/2020 11:40 am : link
that doesn't mean Crowder was the right answer. I think you would have gotten about the same out of both...which is very little.
It was much better to do nothing with respect to Receiving Targets  
LBH15 : 10/19/2020 11:48 am : link
Slayton was obviously going to turn into Jerry Rice

Shepard was unlikely to miss games due to injury/concussions

Tate jumped in the Fountain of Youth so he was going to be fine at 32 years old

Engram coming off foot surgery was going to be better than new

NY Giant GM's Strategy: Ignore both free agency and a deep draft and just grab a few UDFAs. This area is fine.

RE: It was much better to do nothing with respect to Receiving Targets  
sb from NYT Forum : 10/19/2020 11:59 am : link
In comment 15014392 LBH15 said:
Quote:
Slayton was obviously going to turn into Jerry Rice

Shepard was unlikely to miss games due to injury/concussions

Tate jumped in the Fountain of Youth so he was going to be fine at 32 years old

Engram coming off foot surgery was going to be better than new

NY Giant GM's Strategy: Ignore both free agency and a deep draft and just grab a few UDFAs. This area is fine.


Tate's fountain of youth was named "PEDs" lol.
RE: RE: Also, please tell me more about taking deep shots  
jlukes : 10/19/2020 12:03 pm : link
In comment 15014278 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15014260 jlukes said:


Quote:


With awful or injured WRs and a defense that played a deep zone with a only a 4 man rush (because their defensive line is so good)

Good lord



This looks like separation to me. And awfully similar to plays we've seen Engram make regularly whenever he was healthy prior to this year. https://www.giants.com/video/daniel-jones-rolls-out-fires-21-yard-dart-to-engram-down-sideline - ( New Window )


If you can’t understand the difference between a guy getting separation from running a good route and a guy being wide open because the defense bit on a good play action then I don’t know what to tell you
RE: RE: RE: Also, please tell me more about taking deep shots  
Eric on Li : 10/19/2020 12:32 pm : link
In comment 15014437 jlukes said:
Quote:
In comment 15014278 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 15014260 jlukes said:


Quote:


With awful or injured WRs and a defense that played a deep zone with a only a 4 man rush (because their defensive line is so good)

Good lord



This looks like separation to me. And awfully similar to plays we've seen Engram make regularly whenever he was healthy prior to this year. https://www.giants.com/video/daniel-jones-rolls-out-fires-21-yard-dart-to-engram-down-sideline - ( New Window )



If you can’t understand the difference between a guy getting separation from running a good route and a guy being wide open because the defense bit on a good play action then I don’t know what to tell you


and if you can't understand the difference between an offensive scheme where the few receiving threats run routes that maximize their abilities as opposed to routes they are poor at (like Engram running curl routes all day) then I don't know what to tell you.

Engram has thrived running routes up the seam and across the field for his first 3 years here. Even with the injuries he's probably up there among TE's in terms of YPC, yards, receptions, etc. This year has been an outlier both in that he hasn't had an injury and has been almost completely unproductive as a receiver.
Engram has thrived running routes up the seam?  
LBH15 : 10/19/2020 12:36 pm : link
In New York or Mississippi?
RE: Engram has thrived running routes up the seam?  
Eric on Li : 10/19/2020 12:44 pm : link
In comment 15014508 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In New York or Mississippi?


There's an assortment of charts from last year at the link below. Notice the striking difference between the 1 chart from 2020 and the multiple from 2018/2019 like this one.



Here's his lone 2020 chart:


https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/evan-engram/ENG726325/season - ( New Window )
Engram has never been a vertical threat  
jlukes : 10/19/2020 12:47 pm : link
He’s been a YAC guy. Crossing routes have really been the only play where he’s been consistently successful
btw Golden Tate's charts are similarly different '19v'20  
Eric on Li : 10/19/2020 12:49 pm : link
2019 week 6 vs. NE (no Barkley):


2020:


https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/golden-tate/TAT245022/season - ( New Window )
RE: Engram has never been a vertical threat  
Eric on Li : 10/19/2020 12:50 pm : link
In comment 15014534 jlukes said:
Quote:
He’s been a YAC guy. Crossing routes have really been the only play where he’s been consistently successful


So then you agree it seems odd to have a YAC guy running so many stick routes like he's Jason Witten?
RE: If you..  
Sonic Youth : 10/19/2020 2:59 pm : link
In comment 15014345 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
wanted a Jets WR, Robbie Anderson was the guy. Of course, he's got dome off the field baggage and rumors are he quit on the Jets, but if you want to throw darts, you probably hit the wrong Jet.

Probably should have kept the dart in the case.
I totally agree Andersen should have been a target last season. I only went with Crowder bc he was signed the year Tate was in the offseason leading up to 2019.

He's much better than Tate  
KWALL2 : 10/19/2020 3:21 pm : link
but still way too much money for this kind of player. I would pass on both.
RE: RE: RE: Also, please tell me more about taking deep shots  
chopperhatch : 10/19/2020 3:31 pm : link
In comment 15014437 jlukes said:
Quote:
In comment 15014278 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 15014260 jlukes said:


Quote:


With awful or injured WRs and a defense that played a deep zone with a only a 4 man rush (because their defensive line is so good)

Good lord



This looks like separation to me. And awfully similar to plays we've seen Engram make regularly whenever he was healthy prior to this year. https://www.giants.com/video/daniel-jones-rolls-out-fires-21-yard-dart-to-engram-down-sideline - ( New Window )



If you can’t understand the difference between a guy getting separation from running a good route and a guy being wide open because the defense bit on a good play action then I don’t know what to tell you


Yea and they also flooded a zone coverered by 2 defenders with 3 layered routes. Really more of a good play call than getting separation.
RE: He's much better than Tate  
EricJ : 10/19/2020 3:32 pm : link
In comment 15014805 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
but still way too much money for this kind of player. I would pass on both.


We often do not have too many options via free agency. The perfect guy at the perfect price is rarely there. You are either over paying for someone who CAN get it done on the field or you are bottom feeding to plug a hole.
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