He's having the best season in his career, by far.
he's on about the same pace as his 2016 season (which was his lone pro bowl year).
he is a solid player and if they can get him back on a FMV contract I'd do it. If not hopefully they recoup the pick. Or they can tag him again, though this year I think I'd be willing to risk the transition tag instead of the franchise tag with the flat cap.
Williams and Lawrence make a very formidable interior
and he's deep enough into his career to say he's not a game changer. Good player but overpaid compared to his production.
Define gamechanger. He's not a contender for DPOY but he's also not paid anywhere near that level of player at his position (Donald and Buckner specifically).
Will underplay this pickup even if he was the best defender in the NFL... lol.
It's tough to judge what he should be making, probably around 13 mill a year would be best for us. But anyone being honest and actually watching the defense can see that this guy is a really good player. He's probably going to get at least 15 mill a year with a longer term contract.
Will underplay this pickup even if he was the best defender in the NFL... lol.
It's tough to judge what he should be making, probably around 13 mill a year would be best for us. But anyone being honest and actually watching the defense can see that this guy is a really good player. He's probably going to get at least 15 mill a year with a longer term contract.
Eventhough he’s playing really well it’s still a dumb trade
plenty of season left to go, but a lot of posters here spent the last half of 2019 calling for DG to be fired solely based on the Williams trade alone.
and it's not a coincidence that Tomlinson has played his best ball since the LW acquisition. His salary isn't that big of a deal, he's probably a little overpaid but despite what many believe, he's not getting paid like an elite pass rusher. If he was in that category, he'd be getting >$20M per (easy). And his ability to disrupt the pocket would be even more evident with an elite ER.
That said, trading for him was dumb and a waste of assets. DG would've been better off waiting until the offseason and giving him a 5 yr/$75M deal.
plenty of season left to go, but a lot of posters here spent the last half of 2019 calling for DG to be fired solely based on the Williams trade alone.
So what? Would you rather they create a lengthy list of reasons for you to go thru instead to come to the same conclusion? It won't be difficult.
Not all hot takes are wrong in sentiment, just the words they choose.
He's having the best season in his career, by far.
he's on about the same pace as his 2016 season (which was his lone pro bowl year).
he is a solid player and if they can get him back on a FMV contract I'd do it. If not hopefully they recoup the pick. Or they can tag him again, though this year I think I'd be willing to risk the transition tag instead of the franchise tag with the flat cap.
Tagging him again pushes his cap number north of $20 million.
Will underplay this pickup even if he was the best defender in the NFL... lol.
It's tough to judge what he should be making, probably around 13 mill a year would be best for us. But anyone being honest and actually watching the defense can see that this guy is a really good player. He's probably going to get at least 15 mill a year with a longer term contract.
Unfortunately we probably lost out playing hard ball with him. He's going to sign a deal in the 18-20 million range assuming what the cap looks like moving forward (a lot of uncertainty there as far as revenues)
Ironically, there is a large contingent of people here that would have went ape shit if he signed a 15 million a year contract. He is certainly worth that, and he'd have more sacks under his belt if we had any semblance of an edge pass rush.
LW looks like a nice piece to the defense, and is young.
If they were to sign him, and front load the contract, who do they risk losing? What young players on the GMEN needing to lock up long term?
I think enough teams have a handle on the cap that truly good players don't shake loose that often. If he were to be replaced through FA, who do you find that offers more value at a better price tag?
Way he was rushing off the edge. We don’t use him in that way often but it made him more effective as a pass rusher. I was surprised how good he looked rushing standing up.
RE: Kinda wish we got him on that 15 million a year contract now.
one of the issues with the trade was that DG gave Williams immediately had all of the leverage in any negotiation. His agent knew all along DG was going to franchise him.
but I reserve that premium level of open market dollars for the Edge, especially when they're doing ok finding 3-4/4-3 DL with some level of scheme flexibility.
Hard to get behind rolling out a plus DL with no Edge talent behind it. Paying LW and/or Tomlinson doesn't resolve it, Dexter will be for his second deal before you know it. Something's got to change at a foundational/design level of both the football vision and the cap allocation.
but I reserve that premium level of open market dollars for the Edge, especially when they're doing ok finding 3-4/4-3 DL with some level of scheme flexibility.
Hard to get behind rolling out a plus DL with no Edge talent behind it. Paying LW and/or Tomlinson doesn't resolve it, Dexter will be for his second deal before you know it. Something's got to change at a foundational/design level of both the football vision and the cap allocation.
At this point I'd give Williams money before Tomlinson and Dexter. Lawrence has been very disappointing this year, but maybe it is just because how we are using him isn't setting him up for flashy plays?
played well. As someone said, he'd be a lot more effective if we had some type of edge rush. But I still don't like the trade. He'll also likely want a huge contract in the offseason, more than we'll probably want to pay.
be skeptical of an inconsistent player who's playing for a contract. This is exactly the type of player the Giants will sign to a overpriced longterm deal and get no where near the ROI they should. Save the money and put it towards a legit pass rusher.
we have a guy who is playing really well, a young interior DL who looks the part in this defense....and you guys don't want to pay him?
Just who do you want to pay?
Couple of posters indicated it above. Better to invest monies in players with complementary skills along the Dline/Front 7 versus just overlapping with run-stopping DTs. Think Edge, pass rushers, speed.
we have a guy who is playing really well, a young interior DL who looks the part in this defense....and you guys don't want to pay him?
Just who do you want to pay?
You absolutely don't pay him the money he'll command with a 2nd tag or longterm deal. Herald McCoy and Arron Donald are the type of interior DL that should get that type of money. See the difference?
but I reserve that premium level of open market dollars for the Edge, especially when they're doing ok finding 3-4/4-3 DL with some level of scheme flexibility.
Hard to get behind rolling out a plus DL with no Edge talent behind it. Paying LW and/or Tomlinson doesn't resolve it, Dexter will be for his second deal before you know it. Something's got to change at a foundational/design level of both the football vision and the cap allocation.
At this point I'd give Williams money before Tomlinson and Dexter. Lawrence has been very disappointing this year, but maybe it is just because how we are using him isn't setting him up for flashy plays?
Would you pay LW $17M per over giving DT $10M per? I like LW, but I think the latter would have a better chance to outperform his deal even if the AAV comes in a little higher. Though I am a little leery that DT might benefit substantially from the attention LW and DL draw.
Will underplay this pickup even if he was the best defender in the NFL... lol.
It's tough to judge what he should be making, probably around 13 mill a year would be best for us. But anyone being honest and actually watching the defense can see that this guy is a really good player. He's probably going to get at least 15 mill a year with a longer term contract.
Eventhough he’s playing really well it’s still a dumb trade
Agreed. Hopefully they can trade him at the deadline and get some draft capital back.
we can go after an edge rusher if the market dictates it, as well as sign Williams. We aren't just going to not spend money forever.
This is actually a GREAT question.
I've been saying this for a couple of weeks.
If the GM is DG he's got to double down on some 'his' guys.
Peppers gets signed, LW becomes one of the highest paid DL in the game, DJ is still going to be the QB, maybe a long-term deal starts to get worked out SB, they'll pass on the T from Oregon (I would guess), they'll pass on Lawerence (I would guess), etc...
If not - DG actually leaves this franchise in a GREAT spot to rebuild. There aren't a ton of bad contracts, overpriced vets, and some young players that can be developed.
DG will have left this GM job in way better shape than he got it.
I would imagine that DG believes that LW is a very good, quality NFL DL - he did trade some valuable assets for him.
If it's a requirement for the Giants to win more games for him to remain the GM moving forward - I think it's reasonable to believe that DG would think that keeping LW on the Giants would help them win more games moving forward, thus saving his job while making the Giants better.
I don't believe that DG has made any moves that would purposefully hurt the organization in the long run.
Love him or hate him, DG is pretty ruthless on the cap.
If he doesn't think a guy is worth what he's asking, he won't pay it, even if the player can get that elsewhere. So he may very well choose to trade Williams if he thinks Williams is going to be overpaid.
In many cases, a team is worth more to the team that has him than he is to any trade partner. That's probably not the case with Williams — I'm guessing there is some team that is in the hunt for a playoff spot that could use a player like Williams and would give up something of real value for him.
But on the other hand: DG traded for him for him, saw his potential, LW is playing up to that potential... It would be weird to bail on him so quickly. DG would have to get a LOT back to justify abandoning his strategy. It's not like they're deep in DL prospects ready to step in. I like Tomlinson and Dexter Lawrence a lot, but those two guys with Williams finally give the Giants the kind of stout defensive line that DG wanted from the start.
with the best post. Williams is and has been a very good player - a plus run defender who is always around the quarterback. I think unfortunately for him, he has never played with a stud edge rusher as he would get more sacks.
People love to talk about Clowney but over the course of their career, WIlliams has more pressures.
You need to pay him and find an edge rusher. That along with continued maturity from Lawrence will make this defense pretty formidable.
Williams is a good player. That was never an issue to me. The issue
When they traded for him, the speculation was he would re-sign with NYG for approx $12-13M per. Now, that seems to either clearly been a lie that DG bought into or a severe miscalculation of their leverage or of his market value.
3-4 DL tend to not get paid top market dollars, unless they're of the Deforest Buckner or Chris Jones caliber. That's part of the strategy in shifting to a 3-4 base scheme, value and flexibility in DL. Call me stubborn, and I'm a fan of LW and bringing him onboard, but he's not a $20M per season talent.
maybe they were mislead by LW's agent but it seems they (Giants FO) thought the 2 sides were a lot closer on a deal than they ended up being. They should've demanded a negotiating window from the Jets prior to the deal and made sure they could lock LW up long term on their terms.
I would imagine that DG believes that LW is a very good, quality NFL DL - he did trade some valuable assets for him.
If it's a requirement for the Giants to win more games for him to remain the GM moving forward - I think it's reasonable to believe that DG would think that keeping LW on the Giants would help them win more games moving forward, thus saving his job while making the Giants better.
Keeping LW on the roster (and giving him a big contract) versus trading him for picks or player(s) would most likely win more games in the short term versus long term.
Making the Giants better...hmmm, lets ask Judge Smails
Will underplay this pickup even if he was the best defender in the NFL... lol.
It's tough to judge what he should be making, probably around 13 mill a year would be best for us. But anyone being honest and actually watching the defense can see that this guy is a really good player. He's probably going to get at least 15 mill a year with a longer term contract.
Eventhough he’s playing really well it’s still a dumb trade
I neither agree or disagree... It's only dumb mainly because we didn't lock him up long term. We haven't exactly been nailing 3 and 5th rnd picks over the last few years. And if we had a legit edge rusher that struck some fear, he would look even better than he already has. I'd have no problem with the Giants signing him for 15 mill a year personally.
As to the concept above from the poster that said the Giants haven't been exactly nailing decent players with their 3rd & 5th rd picks...all the more reason to ensure you have as many as you can. The starting Center for the Cowboys could be playing on our team right now with an extra 3rd in the last draft.
So not paying LW in favor of some fictional elite edge doesn’t make much sense. Everyone people wanted last year got franchised.
LW is a good player, he’s not a bad guy to pay. When you shed bad contracts like Solder, Zeitler, Tate, etc the cap is fine. Draft the ER’s and let LW walk if it comes to that when it’s time to re-sign the homegrown edge talent.
So not paying LW in favor of some fictional elite edge doesn’t make much sense. Everyone people wanted last year got franchised.
LW is a good player, he’s not a bad guy to pay. When you shed bad contracts like Solder, Zeitler, Tate, etc the cap is fine. Draft the ER’s and let LW walk if it comes to that when it’s time to re-sign the homegrown edge talent.
Guy is young, always on the field, and a very good football player. I don't understand people's issues paying him. Yeah he's not an edge rusher, but we don't exactly have a ton of guys that are worth second contracts coming up.
People bitch and moan about the trade, we could have just signed him! Anyone in sales will tell you it's all about getting them in the door, that gives you a massive advantage. Doubly so when he's already played here. Fuckton harder to get new customers then to retain the ones you already have. There's a million and one things on why people/prospects change their mind. Those things tend to go away when its what they are already doing. In FA all things are generally equal. Is a few million worth your happiness? To some, maybe I guess, but he was already a top 5 pick. Dude has cash.
Not to mention that the talent that hits FA these days is awful. Teams are much better than ever at managing the cap so guys worth paying stay. Not defending the overall job DG has done, but he looks to have knocked it out of the park this year with this FA class. Can't judge today, but I wouldn't be suprised after 3 years you can look back and say this may be the best FA class in the league for the assets spent.
I can understand all that. So why hasn’t DG gotten him signed up
to a deal that makes him a NY Giant pillar for the next 5 years?
Everything you said I can either subscribe to or at least not object to much at all. So why isn’t he under contract?
Be honest with yourself before answering.
Because they disagree on price and Williams was willing to bet on himself. Obviously the Giants offered him an extension but he preferred to try to earn more than whatever that was on the field. 2 sides can value each other and still have trouble easily agreeing on a contract (dallas/dak).
If only there was a mechanism in the NFL to deal with
to a deal that makes him a NY Giant pillar for the next 5 years?
Everything you said I can either subscribe to or at least not object to much at all. So why isn’t he under contract?
Be honest with yourself before answering.
Because they disagree on price and Williams was willing to bet on himself. Obviously the Giants offered him an extension but he preferred to try to earn more than whatever that was on the field. 2 sides can value each other and still have trouble easily agreeing on a contract (dallas/dak).
Williams "bet on himself" to the tune of $17 million guaranteed for one year, knowing that he'll either hit free agency and take offers from 32 teams, or get the Giants to tag him again for a 20% raise to over $20 million.
Williams and his agent could not have played this better. Gettleman could not have played this worse.
RE: RE: RE: I can understand all that. So why hasn’t DG gotten him signed up
to a deal that makes him a NY Giant pillar for the next 5 years?
Everything you said I can either subscribe to or at least not object to much at all. So why isn’t he under contract?
Be honest with yourself before answering.
Because they disagree on price and Williams was willing to bet on himself. Obviously the Giants offered him an extension but he preferred to try to earn more than whatever that was on the field. 2 sides can value each other and still have trouble easily agreeing on a contract (dallas/dak).
Williams "bet on himself" to the tune of $17 million guaranteed for one year, knowing that he'll either hit free agency and take offers from 32 teams, or get the Giants to tag him again for a 20% raise to over $20 million.
Williams and his agent could not have played this better. Gettleman could not have played this worse.
The rare well thought out post. Well done rsjem.
Defenders of the LW deal - what else?
RE: RE: RE: I can understand all that. So why hasn’t DG gotten him signed up
to a deal that makes him a NY Giant pillar for the next 5 years?
Everything you said I can either subscribe to or at least not object to much at all. So why isn’t he under contract?
Be honest with yourself before answering.
Because they disagree on price and Williams was willing to bet on himself. Obviously the Giants offered him an extension but he preferred to try to earn more than whatever that was on the field. 2 sides can value each other and still have trouble easily agreeing on a contract (dallas/dak).
Williams "bet on himself" to the tune of $17 million guarantee for one year, knowing that he'll either hit free agency and take offers from 32 teams, or get the Giants to tag him again for a 20% raise to over $20 million.
Williams and his agent could not have played this better. Gettleman could not have played this worse.
Or he pops an Achilles and gets pennies on the dollar.
DG didn’t feel comfortable paying him what he wanted at the time. If he earns a deal good for him.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I can understand all that. So why hasn’t DG gotten him signed up
to a deal that makes him a NY Giant pillar for the next 5 years?
Everything you said I can either subscribe to or at least not object to much at all. So why isn’t he under contract?
Be honest with yourself before answering.
Because they disagree on price and Williams was willing to bet on himself. Obviously the Giants offered him an extension but he preferred to try to earn more than whatever that was on the field. 2 sides can value each other and still have trouble easily agreeing on a contract (dallas/dak).
Williams "bet on himself" to the tune of $17 million guarantee for one year, knowing that he'll either hit free agency and take offers from 32 teams, or get the Giants to tag him again for a 20% raise to over $20 million.
Williams and his agent could not have played this better. Gettleman could not have played this worse.
Or he pops an Achilles and gets pennies on the dollar.
DG didn’t feel comfortable paying him what he wanted at the time. If he earns a deal good for him.
You seem to forget that we want him play for us. Uninjured.
RE: RE: RE: I can understand all that. So why hasn’t DG gotten him signed up
to a deal that makes him a NY Giant pillar for the next 5 years?
Everything you said I can either subscribe to or at least not object to much at all. So why isn’t he under contract?
Be honest with yourself before answering.
Because they disagree on price and Williams was willing to bet on himself. Obviously the Giants offered him an extension but he preferred to try to earn more than whatever that was on the field. 2 sides can value each other and still have trouble easily agreeing on a contract (dallas/dak).
Williams "bet on himself" to the tune of $17 million guaranteed for one year, knowing that he'll either hit free agency and take offers from 32 teams, or get the Giants to tag him again for a 20% raise to over $20 million.
Williams and his agent could not have played this better. Gettleman could not have played this worse.
You don't seem familiar with how guaranteed money works. He was likely offered somewhere around 2-3x what he will make this year guaranteed. Making 16m doesn't make it a no-brainer to turn down 30m, 40m, 50m (unless it's someone else's money I guess).
Jadeveon Clowney's agent may have a few words of caution for anyone banking on a massive FA deal in advance of an offseason unlike any other in the cap era.
RE: If only there was a mechanism in the NFL to deal with
Williams "bet on himself" to the tune of $17 million guaranteed for one year, knowing that he'll either hit free agency and take offers from 32 teams, or get the Giants to tag him again for a 20% raise to over $20 million.
Williams and his agent could not have played this better. Gettleman could not have played this worse.
Ask Dak how much of a bet it is to play on the FT...
RE: RE: RE: RE: I can understand all that. So why hasn’t DG gotten him signed up
Williams "bet on himself" to the tune of $17 million guaranteed for one year, knowing that he'll either hit free agency and take offers from 32 teams, or get the Giants to tag him again for a 20% raise to over $20 million.
Williams and his agent could not have played this better. Gettleman could not have played this worse.
Ask Dak how much of a bet it is to play on the FT...
to a deal that makes him a NY Giant pillar for the next 5 years?
Everything you said I can either subscribe to or at least not object to much at all. So why isn’t he under contract?
Be honest with yourself before answering.
Because they disagree on price and Williams was willing to bet on himself. Obviously the Giants offered him an extension but he preferred to try to earn more than whatever that was on the field. 2 sides can value each other and still have trouble easily agreeing on a contract (dallas/dak).
Williams "bet on himself" to the tune of $17 million guaranteed for one year, knowing that he'll either hit free agency and take offers from 32 teams, or get the Giants to tag him again for a 20% raise to over $20 million.
Williams and his agent could not have played this better. Gettleman could not have played this worse.
You don't seem familiar with how guaranteed money works. He was likely offered somewhere around 2-3x what he will make this year guaranteed. Making 16m doesn't make it a no-brainer to turn down 30m, 40m, 50m (unless it's someone else's money I guess).
I guess if you say he turned down guaranteed money in the $32-48 million range it must be true.
I have doubts, but I'm sure you'll provide some evidence.
Next year's cap situation being actually lowered will really help put the Giants in an even more advantageous position over a lot teams next FA season.
I think some teams are going to be forced to kick some money on some contracts down the road some and/or cut some pretty decent players to stay under the cap.
There might be some good deals to be had this upcoming season and LW and DT might be two of them.
Next year's cap situation being actually lowered will really help put the Giants in an even more advantageous position over a lot teams next FA season.
how many teams will be in worse shape regarding the cap than us?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I can understand all that. So why hasn’t DG gotten him signed up
I guess if you say he turned down guaranteed money in the $32-48 million range it must be true.
I have doubts, but I'm sure you'll provide some evidence.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a mole to simply look up the going rates at his position (link below). The top 8 players at his position each received between $30m-87m guaranteed - and not all of them did so negotiating with the benefit of the tag as leverage, though most did.
At the time the Giants were negotiating with Williams the most recent of these deals was Grady Jarrett - who was drafted the same year as Williams and had been tagged just like Williams the year prior when his rookie deal expired. He extended right before the July '19 deadline of his tag receiving $42.5m guaranteed.
Both in the trade and what it will cost to sign him long-term. The stink is never coming off that deal because Williams simply isn't a good enough player to merit it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I can understand all that. So why hasn’t DG gotten him signed up
I guess if you say he turned down guaranteed money in the $32-48 million range it must be true.
I have doubts, but I'm sure you'll provide some evidence.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a mole to simply look up the going rates at his position (link below). The top 8 players at his position each received between $30m-87m guaranteed - and not all of them did so negotiating with the benefit of the tag as leverage, though most did.
At the time the Giants were negotiating with Williams the most recent of these deals was Grady Jarrett - who was drafted the same year as Williams and had been tagged just like Williams the year prior when his rookie deal expired. He extended right before the July '19 deadline of his tag receiving $42.5m guaranteed.
So the evidence of FMV is...the market. And the fact that the Giants said publicly from day 1 they wanted to extend LW long term. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/guaranteed/defensive-tackle/ - ( New Window )
I honestly don't know how or why you think that pointing out the value of deals that were signed prove that Williams got that kind of offer.
I absolutely agree that those are the going rates for that position, but there's no evidence to suggest Williams received (and rejected) that kind of offer. All we know is that the Giants used the franchise tag and ultimately didn't reach a long term deal. Presumably Williams knows what kind of offer will be out there for him after this year, which likely informed any decision he and his agent made about the Giants (unknown) offer.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I can understand all that. So why hasn’t DG gotten him signed up
Next year's cap situation being actually lowered will really help put the Giants in an even more advantageous position over a lot teams next FA season.
how many teams will be in worse shape regarding the cap than us?
Are you serious?? Right now, we are projected to be in the 6th best cap situation next season.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I can understand all that. So why hasn’t DG gotten him signed up
Next year's cap situation being actually lowered will really help put the Giants in an even more advantageous position over a lot teams next FA season.
how many teams will be in worse shape regarding the cap than us?
Are you serious?? Right now, we are projected to be in the 6th best cap situation next season.
I honestly don't know how or why you think that pointing out the value of deals that were signed prove that Williams got that kind of offer.
I absolutely agree that those are the going rates for that position, but there's no evidence to suggest Williams received (and rejected) that kind of offer. All we know is that the Giants used the franchise tag and ultimately didn't reach a long term deal. Presumably Williams knows what kind of offer will be out there for him after this year, which likely informed any decision he and his agent made about the Giants (unknown) offer.
So you think the NYG didn't offer him an extension close to FMV? There's no way to know for sure but that seems highly unlikely to me given that they have claimed to want to sign him to a multi-year deal since acquiring him.
There's not much that's been reported on his negotiations but Vacchiano did claim in July Williams was looking for 18-20m AAV and that the Giants were under that, which implies there was some offer. My guess is it was close to Jarrett money but the range I gave was $10m less guaranteed than that to be conservative. I think we can safely say the AAV was unlikely to be less than the ~$16m AAV he's made each of the last 2 years.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I can understand all that. So why hasn’t DG gotten him signed up
I guess if you say he turned down guaranteed money in the $32-48 million range it must be true.
I have doubts, but I'm sure you'll provide some evidence.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a mole to simply look up the going rates at his position (link below). The top 8 players at his position each received between $30m-87m guaranteed - and not all of them did so negotiating with the benefit of the tag as leverage, though most did.
At the time the Giants were negotiating with Williams the most recent of these deals was Grady Jarrett - who was drafted the same year as Williams and had been tagged just like Williams the year prior when his rookie deal expired. He extended right before the July '19 deadline of his tag receiving $42.5m guaranteed.
So the evidence of FMV is...the market. And the fact that the Giants said publicly from day 1 they wanted to extend LW long term. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/guaranteed/defensive-tackle/ - ( New Window )
Never a rocket scientist around when you need one.
So if all this info is available how was a fair deal not struck before they had to franchise him? Obviously somebody didn't think it was fair.
What makes you think these parties will come to a fair deal this year? Williams play seems to be getting more attention, the franchise price tag goes up, the salary cap may go down, might have a new GM, and the cheap rookie contracts on Saquon, Jones and Lawrence burned off another year. Lots goin' on that could affect this up or down.
Imv, the free agent market may be the only thing that brings these disputing parties together. And if that is the case the Giants are better off trading him before it happens. Kind of like the Jets did. Except there is one less sucker team out there now.
player contracts expiring, and/or outs, and/or cuts that make sense (in my opinion) include:
Solder
Tate
Peppers (option)
Williams
Dalvin T
Ryan
Johnson
Fackrell
Dion Lewis
D. Freeman
W. Gallman
C. McCoy
C. Fleming
S. Pulley
M. Golden
D. Downs
Colbert
Ebner
Gano
Engram (option)
but the ONE definitely positive thing that DG did as the Giants GM was make the job a FAR more attractive one than the GM job he took.
Almost every player on this roster at the end of the year will either be on their rookie contract OR players like Blake Martinez and James Bradberry who are playing at a high level but are off the books in 2023.
Zeitler is expensive - but he's off the books in 2022.
If you're a GM looking to make a name for yourself - this Giants team is pretty much a blank slate.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I can understand all that. So why hasn’t DG gotten him signed up
So if all this info is available how was a fair deal not struck before they had to franchise him? Obviously somebody didn't think it was fair.
What makes you think these parties will come to a fair deal this year? Williams play seems to be getting more attention, the franchise price tag goes up, the salary cap may go down, might have a new GM, and the cheap rookie contracts on Saquon, Jones and Lawrence burned off another year. Lots goin' on that could affect this up or down.
Imv, the free agent market may be the only thing that brings these disputing parties together. And if that is the case the Giants are better off trading him before it happens. Kind of like the Jets did. Except there is one less sucker team out there now.
It takes 2 sides to agree to a deal. If Williams wants a raise to 18-20m (as reported by Vacchiano) that's his right and I agree with the Giants not giving into it since they have the option of retaining his services cheaper than that via the tag.
It is a free country and anyone can want whatever they want - just as anyone can disagree with them and not accommodate the ask. Williams was always going to be a tricky negotiation for a lot of reasons, including the gray area of his positional classification and strange timing of the trade, which is why I've viewed the deal from day 1 as basically 2 one year options around $17m AAV, which I think is a perfectly fair AAV and relatively risk free investment since the team has all the control. The guy is having a borderline pro bowl year right now and is easily the 2nd best player on a much improved defense. And if you view him as a 2 year contract at the tag value, it's not all that different than the $30m gtd in the first 2 years it took to sign Bradberry (which has been a coup).
but the ONE definitely positive thing that DG did as the Giants GM was make the job a FAR more attractive one than the GM job he took.
Almost every player on this roster at the end of the year will either be on their rookie contract OR players like Blake Martinez and James Bradberry who are playing at a high level but are off the books in 2023.
Zeitler is expensive - but he's off the books in 2022.
If you're a GM looking to make a name for yourself - this Giants team is pretty much a blank slate.
So you think guys like Saquon, Hernandez, Jones, Tomlinson and Lawrence to name a few are going to just get extended on their rookie salaries? The hit is coming...you just can't see it yet.
And I'll keep saying it to...that blank slate of a team wins about 4 games per year.
Next year's cap situation being actually lowered will really help put the Giants in an even more advantageous position over a lot teams next FA season.
how many teams will be in worse shape regarding the cap than us?
Are you serious?? Right now, we are projected to be in the 6th best cap situation next season.
OTC has done a bunch of good podcasting on the cap landscape will look like, and what teams are really in trouble. The Eagles for instance, look like a mess, but have a bunch of levers to pull and can easily get into the black. The Steelers are a different story -- they either have to cut or extend Big Ben.
As an aside Jason Fitzgerald who runs OTC is a great dude, and one of the really smart people in the sports landscape.
I'd wager the cap is ~180M for 2021 - so with rolled over money from 2020, dead money, and the presumptive top 51 salaries, the Giants are probably around $24M under the 2021 cap.
I think the most likely outcome is the Giants cut Solder, Tate, and Zeitler and net and additional $21.5M
he's on about the same pace as his 2016 season (which was his lone pro bowl year).
he is a solid player and if they can get him back on a FMV contract I'd do it. If not hopefully they recoup the pick. Or they can tag him again, though this year I think I'd be willing to risk the transition tag instead of the franchise tag with the flat cap.
Define gamechanger. He's not a contender for DPOY but he's also not paid anywhere near that level of player at his position (Donald and Buckner specifically).
Start working the phones.
It's tough to judge what he should be making, probably around 13 mill a year would be best for us. But anyone being honest and actually watching the defense can see that this guy is a really good player. He's probably going to get at least 15 mill a year with a longer term contract.
It's tough to judge what he should be making, probably around 13 mill a year would be best for us. But anyone being honest and actually watching the defense can see that this guy is a really good player. He's probably going to get at least 15 mill a year with a longer term contract.
Eventhough he’s playing really well it’s still a dumb trade
What is FMV for a player like him -
recent contracts for interior players indicate it is going to be 15-18M for him.
I am keeping him over Tomlinson
Especially since he was going to be a free agent anyway
That said, trading for him was dumb and a waste of assets. DG would've been better off waiting until the offseason and giving him a 5 yr/$75M deal.
So what? Would you rather they create a lengthy list of reasons for you to go thru instead to come to the same conclusion? It won't be difficult.
Not all hot takes are wrong in sentiment, just the words they choose.
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He's having the best season in his career, by far.
he's on about the same pace as his 2016 season (which was his lone pro bowl year).
he is a solid player and if they can get him back on a FMV contract I'd do it. If not hopefully they recoup the pick. Or they can tag him again, though this year I think I'd be willing to risk the transition tag instead of the franchise tag with the flat cap.
Tagging him again pushes his cap number north of $20 million.
But he isn't that guy offenses are going to gameplan around like Aaron Donald or the Bosa's.
It's tough to judge what he should be making, probably around 13 mill a year would be best for us. But anyone being honest and actually watching the defense can see that this guy is a really good player. He's probably going to get at least 15 mill a year with a longer term contract.
Unfortunately we probably lost out playing hard ball with him. He's going to sign a deal in the 18-20 million range assuming what the cap looks like moving forward (a lot of uncertainty there as far as revenues)
Ironically, there is a large contingent of people here that would have went ape shit if he signed a 15 million a year contract. He is certainly worth that, and he'd have more sacks under his belt if we had any semblance of an edge pass rush.
The dumbass trade is now over. Moving forward if he helps us he helps us.
LW looks like a nice piece to the defense, and is young.
If they were to sign him, and front load the contract, who do they risk losing? What young players on the GMEN needing to lock up long term?
I think enough teams have a handle on the cap that truly good players don't shake loose that often. If he were to be replaced through FA, who do you find that offers more value at a better price tag?
one of the issues with the trade was that DG gave Williams immediately had all of the leverage in any negotiation. His agent knew all along DG was going to franchise him.
Who ever suggested that LW and his agent ever had that price in mind?
Hard to get behind rolling out a plus DL with no Edge talent behind it. Paying LW and/or Tomlinson doesn't resolve it, Dexter will be for his second deal before you know it. Something's got to change at a foundational/design level of both the football vision and the cap allocation.
Hard to get behind rolling out a plus DL with no Edge talent behind it. Paying LW and/or Tomlinson doesn't resolve it, Dexter will be for his second deal before you know it. Something's got to change at a foundational/design level of both the football vision and the cap allocation.
At this point I'd give Williams money before Tomlinson and Dexter. Lawrence has been very disappointing this year, but maybe it is just because how we are using him isn't setting him up for flashy plays?
Just who do you want to pay?
The trade was awful. And DG should be fired.
What's the incorrect piece?
Just who do you want to pay?
No. Trade him. We only have five picks in the 2021 draft.
We don't need Williams and his cap hit.
Just who do you want to pay?
Couple of posters indicated it above. Better to invest monies in players with complementary skills along the Dline/Front 7 versus just overlapping with run-stopping DTs. Think Edge, pass rushers, speed.
High intensity & disruptive.
Too much was made of the zero sacks last year. As if he never got a sack.
He had 17.5 sacks from the interior BEFORE he joined the Giants. Not bad, especially on a 34 D.
Just who do you want to pay?
You absolutely don't pay him the money he'll command with a 2nd tag or longterm deal. Herald McCoy and Arron Donald are the type of interior DL that should get that type of money. See the difference?
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but I reserve that premium level of open market dollars for the Edge, especially when they're doing ok finding 3-4/4-3 DL with some level of scheme flexibility.
Hard to get behind rolling out a plus DL with no Edge talent behind it. Paying LW and/or Tomlinson doesn't resolve it, Dexter will be for his second deal before you know it. Something's got to change at a foundational/design level of both the football vision and the cap allocation.
At this point I'd give Williams money before Tomlinson and Dexter. Lawrence has been very disappointing this year, but maybe it is just because how we are using him isn't setting him up for flashy plays?
Would you pay LW $17M per over giving DT $10M per? I like LW, but I think the latter would have a better chance to outperform his deal even if the AAV comes in a little higher. Though I am a little leery that DT might benefit substantially from the attention LW and DL draw.
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Will underplay this pickup even if he was the best defender in the NFL... lol.
It's tough to judge what he should be making, probably around 13 mill a year would be best for us. But anyone being honest and actually watching the defense can see that this guy is a really good player. He's probably going to get at least 15 mill a year with a longer term contract.
Eventhough he’s playing really well it’s still a dumb trade
Agreed. Hopefully they can trade him at the deadline and get some draft capital back.
OR
signing him to a below market deal
Neither of which is going to happen.
This is actually a GREAT question.
I've been saying this for a couple of weeks.
If the GM is DG he's got to double down on some 'his' guys.
Peppers gets signed, LW becomes one of the highest paid DL in the game, DJ is still going to be the QB, maybe a long-term deal starts to get worked out SB, they'll pass on the T from Oregon (I would guess), they'll pass on Lawerence (I would guess), etc...
If not - DG actually leaves this franchise in a GREAT spot to rebuild. There aren't a ton of bad contracts, overpriced vets, and some young players that can be developed.
DG will have left this GM job in way better shape than he got it.
OR
signing him to a below market deal
Neither of which is going to happen.
Actually I agree, neither of those is reasonable.
But he should still be traded for highest and best offer.
What the hell does that mean...that Gettleman will act like a desperate, wounded GM and make bad decisions that could hurt the franchise?
What else is new.
If it's a requirement for the Giants to win more games for him to remain the GM moving forward - I think it's reasonable to believe that DG would think that keeping LW on the Giants would help them win more games moving forward, thus saving his job while making the Giants better.
I don't believe that DG has made any moves that would purposefully hurt the organization in the long run.
In many cases, a team is worth more to the team that has him than he is to any trade partner. That's probably not the case with Williams — I'm guessing there is some team that is in the hunt for a playoff spot that could use a player like Williams and would give up something of real value for him.
But on the other hand: DG traded for him for him, saw his potential, LW is playing up to that potential... It would be weird to bail on him so quickly. DG would have to get a LOT back to justify abandoning his strategy. It's not like they're deep in DL prospects ready to step in. I like Tomlinson and Dexter Lawrence a lot, but those two guys with Williams finally give the Giants the kind of stout defensive line that DG wanted from the start.
People love to talk about Clowney but over the course of their career, WIlliams has more pressures.
You need to pay him and find an edge rusher. That along with continued maturity from Lawrence will make this defense pretty formidable.
3-4 DL tend to not get paid top market dollars, unless they're of the Deforest Buckner or Chris Jones caliber. That's part of the strategy in shifting to a 3-4 base scheme, value and flexibility in DL. Call me stubborn, and I'm a fan of LW and bringing him onboard, but he's not a $20M per season talent.
If it's a requirement for the Giants to win more games for him to remain the GM moving forward - I think it's reasonable to believe that DG would think that keeping LW on the Giants would help them win more games moving forward, thus saving his job while making the Giants better.
Keeping LW on the roster (and giving him a big contract) versus trading him for picks or player(s) would most likely win more games in the short term versus long term.
Making the Giants better...hmmm, lets ask Judge Smails
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Will underplay this pickup even if he was the best defender in the NFL... lol.
It's tough to judge what he should be making, probably around 13 mill a year would be best for us. But anyone being honest and actually watching the defense can see that this guy is a really good player. He's probably going to get at least 15 mill a year with a longer term contract.
Eventhough he’s playing really well it’s still a dumb trade
I neither agree or disagree... It's only dumb mainly because we didn't lock him up long term. We haven't exactly been nailing 3 and 5th rnd picks over the last few years. And if we had a legit edge rusher that struck some fear, he would look even better than he already has. I'd have no problem with the Giants signing him for 15 mill a year personally.
Fingers crossed...maybe a 4th? If the Gods are aligned maybe someone will fork over a 3rd...
But I don't see anything higher than a 3rd.
As to the concept above from the poster that said the Giants haven't been exactly nailing decent players with their 3rd & 5th rd picks...all the more reason to ensure you have as many as you can. The starting Center for the Cowboys could be playing on our team right now with an extra 3rd in the last draft.
We'll never have the opportunity to know if that's true.
LW is a good player, he’s not a bad guy to pay. When you shed bad contracts like Solder, Zeitler, Tate, etc the cap is fine. Draft the ER’s and let LW walk if it comes to that when it’s time to re-sign the homegrown edge talent.
LW is a good player, he’s not a bad guy to pay. When you shed bad contracts like Solder, Zeitler, Tate, etc the cap is fine. Draft the ER’s and let LW walk if it comes to that when it’s time to re-sign the homegrown edge talent.
Guy is young, always on the field, and a very good football player. I don't understand people's issues paying him. Yeah he's not an edge rusher, but we don't exactly have a ton of guys that are worth second contracts coming up.
People bitch and moan about the trade, we could have just signed him! Anyone in sales will tell you it's all about getting them in the door, that gives you a massive advantage. Doubly so when he's already played here. Fuckton harder to get new customers then to retain the ones you already have. There's a million and one things on why people/prospects change their mind. Those things tend to go away when its what they are already doing. In FA all things are generally equal. Is a few million worth your happiness? To some, maybe I guess, but he was already a top 5 pick. Dude has cash.
Not to mention that the talent that hits FA these days is awful. Teams are much better than ever at managing the cap so guys worth paying stay. Not defending the overall job DG has done, but he looks to have knocked it out of the park this year with this FA class. Can't judge today, but I wouldn't be suprised after 3 years you can look back and say this may be the best FA class in the league for the assets spent.
Everything you said I can either subscribe to or at least not object to much at all. So why isn’t he under contract?
Be honest with yourself before answering.
Everything you said I can either subscribe to or at least not object to much at all. So why isn’t he under contract?
Be honest with yourself before answering.
Because they disagree on price and Williams was willing to bet on himself. Obviously the Giants offered him an extension but he preferred to try to earn more than whatever that was on the field. 2 sides can value each other and still have trouble easily agreeing on a contract (dallas/dak).
What makes you think DG can get him to agree to a contract after this season? What will have changed that favors the Giants?
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to a deal that makes him a NY Giant pillar for the next 5 years?
Everything you said I can either subscribe to or at least not object to much at all. So why isn’t he under contract?
Be honest with yourself before answering.
Because they disagree on price and Williams was willing to bet on himself. Obviously the Giants offered him an extension but he preferred to try to earn more than whatever that was on the field. 2 sides can value each other and still have trouble easily agreeing on a contract (dallas/dak).
Williams "bet on himself" to the tune of $17 million guaranteed for one year, knowing that he'll either hit free agency and take offers from 32 teams, or get the Giants to tag him again for a 20% raise to over $20 million.
Williams and his agent could not have played this better. Gettleman could not have played this worse.
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In comment 15015123 LBH15 said:
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to a deal that makes him a NY Giant pillar for the next 5 years?
Everything you said I can either subscribe to or at least not object to much at all. So why isn’t he under contract?
Be honest with yourself before answering.
Because they disagree on price and Williams was willing to bet on himself. Obviously the Giants offered him an extension but he preferred to try to earn more than whatever that was on the field. 2 sides can value each other and still have trouble easily agreeing on a contract (dallas/dak).
Williams "bet on himself" to the tune of $17 million guaranteed for one year, knowing that he'll either hit free agency and take offers from 32 teams, or get the Giants to tag him again for a 20% raise to over $20 million.
Williams and his agent could not have played this better. Gettleman could not have played this worse.
The rare well thought out post. Well done rsjem.
Defenders of the LW deal - what else?
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In comment 15015123 LBH15 said:
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to a deal that makes him a NY Giant pillar for the next 5 years?
Everything you said I can either subscribe to or at least not object to much at all. So why isn’t he under contract?
Be honest with yourself before answering.
Because they disagree on price and Williams was willing to bet on himself. Obviously the Giants offered him an extension but he preferred to try to earn more than whatever that was on the field. 2 sides can value each other and still have trouble easily agreeing on a contract (dallas/dak).
Williams "bet on himself" to the tune of $17 million guarantee for one year, knowing that he'll either hit free agency and take offers from 32 teams, or get the Giants to tag him again for a 20% raise to over $20 million.
Williams and his agent could not have played this better. Gettleman could not have played this worse.
Or he pops an Achilles and gets pennies on the dollar.
DG didn’t feel comfortable paying him what he wanted at the time. If he earns a deal good for him.
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In comment 15015136 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15015123 LBH15 said:
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to a deal that makes him a NY Giant pillar for the next 5 years?
Everything you said I can either subscribe to or at least not object to much at all. So why isn’t he under contract?
Be honest with yourself before answering.
Because they disagree on price and Williams was willing to bet on himself. Obviously the Giants offered him an extension but he preferred to try to earn more than whatever that was on the field. 2 sides can value each other and still have trouble easily agreeing on a contract (dallas/dak).
Williams "bet on himself" to the tune of $17 million guarantee for one year, knowing that he'll either hit free agency and take offers from 32 teams, or get the Giants to tag him again for a 20% raise to over $20 million.
Williams and his agent could not have played this better. Gettleman could not have played this worse.
Or he pops an Achilles and gets pennies on the dollar.
DG didn’t feel comfortable paying him what he wanted at the time. If he earns a deal good for him.
You seem to forget that we want him play for us. Uninjured.
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In comment 15015123 LBH15 said:
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to a deal that makes him a NY Giant pillar for the next 5 years?
Everything you said I can either subscribe to or at least not object to much at all. So why isn’t he under contract?
Be honest with yourself before answering.
Because they disagree on price and Williams was willing to bet on himself. Obviously the Giants offered him an extension but he preferred to try to earn more than whatever that was on the field. 2 sides can value each other and still have trouble easily agreeing on a contract (dallas/dak).
Williams "bet on himself" to the tune of $17 million guaranteed for one year, knowing that he'll either hit free agency and take offers from 32 teams, or get the Giants to tag him again for a 20% raise to over $20 million.
Williams and his agent could not have played this better. Gettleman could not have played this worse.
You don't seem familiar with how guaranteed money works. He was likely offered somewhere around 2-3x what he will make this year guaranteed. Making 16m doesn't make it a no-brainer to turn down 30m, 40m, 50m (unless it's someone else's money I guess).
Jadeveon Clowney's agent may have a few words of caution for anyone banking on a massive FA deal in advance of an offseason unlike any other in the cap era.
What makes you think DG can get him to agree to a contract after this season? What will have changed that favors the Giants?
The cap could decrease for the first time in years, which likely means you'll see a decrease in player's contracts.
Williams "bet on himself" to the tune of $17 million guaranteed for one year, knowing that he'll either hit free agency and take offers from 32 teams, or get the Giants to tag him again for a 20% raise to over $20 million.
Williams and his agent could not have played this better. Gettleman could not have played this worse.
Ask Dak how much of a bet it is to play on the FT...
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Williams "bet on himself" to the tune of $17 million guaranteed for one year, knowing that he'll either hit free agency and take offers from 32 teams, or get the Giants to tag him again for a 20% raise to over $20 million.
Williams and his agent could not have played this better. Gettleman could not have played this worse.
Ask Dak how much of a bet it is to play on the FT...
Ask Dallas how much they need him.
some people cannot follow simple instructions...
As Williams was going to get traded to someone....and that team would have done the samething as the Giants.
Young, good players do not reach FA
As Williams was going to get traded to someone....and that team would have done the samething as the Giants.
Young, good players do not reach FA
Gettleman has other siblings that are GMs too?
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In comment 15015136 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15015123 LBH15 said:
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to a deal that makes him a NY Giant pillar for the next 5 years?
Everything you said I can either subscribe to or at least not object to much at all. So why isn’t he under contract?
Be honest with yourself before answering.
Because they disagree on price and Williams was willing to bet on himself. Obviously the Giants offered him an extension but he preferred to try to earn more than whatever that was on the field. 2 sides can value each other and still have trouble easily agreeing on a contract (dallas/dak).
Williams "bet on himself" to the tune of $17 million guaranteed for one year, knowing that he'll either hit free agency and take offers from 32 teams, or get the Giants to tag him again for a 20% raise to over $20 million.
Williams and his agent could not have played this better. Gettleman could not have played this worse.
You don't seem familiar with how guaranteed money works. He was likely offered somewhere around 2-3x what he will make this year guaranteed. Making 16m doesn't make it a no-brainer to turn down 30m, 40m, 50m (unless it's someone else's money I guess).
I guess if you say he turned down guaranteed money in the $32-48 million range it must be true.
I have doubts, but I'm sure you'll provide some evidence.
Next year's cap situation being actually lowered will really help put the Giants in an even more advantageous position over a lot teams next FA season.
I think some teams are going to be forced to kick some money on some contracts down the road some and/or cut some pretty decent players to stay under the cap.
There might be some good deals to be had this upcoming season and LW and DT might be two of them.
Next year's cap situation being actually lowered will really help put the Giants in an even more advantageous position over a lot teams next FA season.
how many teams will be in worse shape regarding the cap than us?
I guess if you say he turned down guaranteed money in the $32-48 million range it must be true.
I have doubts, but I'm sure you'll provide some evidence.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a mole to simply look up the going rates at his position (link below). The top 8 players at his position each received between $30m-87m guaranteed - and not all of them did so negotiating with the benefit of the tag as leverage, though most did.
At the time the Giants were negotiating with Williams the most recent of these deals was Grady Jarrett - who was drafted the same year as Williams and had been tagged just like Williams the year prior when his rookie deal expired. He extended right before the July '19 deadline of his tag receiving $42.5m guaranteed.
So the evidence of FMV is...the market. And the fact that the Giants said publicly from day 1 they wanted to extend LW long term.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/guaranteed/defensive-tackle/ - ( New Window )
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I guess if you say he turned down guaranteed money in the $32-48 million range it must be true.
I have doubts, but I'm sure you'll provide some evidence.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a mole to simply look up the going rates at his position (link below). The top 8 players at his position each received between $30m-87m guaranteed - and not all of them did so negotiating with the benefit of the tag as leverage, though most did.
At the time the Giants were negotiating with Williams the most recent of these deals was Grady Jarrett - who was drafted the same year as Williams and had been tagged just like Williams the year prior when his rookie deal expired. He extended right before the July '19 deadline of his tag receiving $42.5m guaranteed.
So the evidence of FMV is...the market. And the fact that the Giants said publicly from day 1 they wanted to extend LW long term. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/guaranteed/defensive-tackle/ - ( New Window )
I honestly don't know how or why you think that pointing out the value of deals that were signed prove that Williams got that kind of offer.
I absolutely agree that those are the going rates for that position, but there's no evidence to suggest Williams received (and rejected) that kind of offer. All we know is that the Giants used the franchise tag and ultimately didn't reach a long term deal. Presumably Williams knows what kind of offer will be out there for him after this year, which likely informed any decision he and his agent made about the Giants (unknown) offer.
Ask Dallas how much they need him.
You think after a leg injury like that and a decrease in the cap that Dak will get more money next offseason?
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but I agree.
Next year's cap situation being actually lowered will really help put the Giants in an even more advantageous position over a lot teams next FA season.
how many teams will be in worse shape regarding the cap than us?
Are you serious?? Right now, we are projected to be in the 6th best cap situation next season.
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Ask Dallas how much they need him.
You think after a leg injury like that and a decrease in the cap that Dak will get more money next offseason?
It was about a 4th or 5th year.
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In comment 15015579 Dnew15 said:
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but I agree.
Next year's cap situation being actually lowered will really help put the Giants in an even more advantageous position over a lot teams next FA season.
how many teams will be in worse shape regarding the cap than us?
Are you serious?? Right now, we are projected to be in the 6th best cap situation next season.
Where are you seeing that? OTC has Giants as roughly middle of the pack: https://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space/
Is your number after cuts to Solder, etc?
Saints and Eagles in particular are going to see some pain based on those #s.
I honestly don't know how or why you think that pointing out the value of deals that were signed prove that Williams got that kind of offer.
I absolutely agree that those are the going rates for that position, but there's no evidence to suggest Williams received (and rejected) that kind of offer. All we know is that the Giants used the franchise tag and ultimately didn't reach a long term deal. Presumably Williams knows what kind of offer will be out there for him after this year, which likely informed any decision he and his agent made about the Giants (unknown) offer.
So you think the NYG didn't offer him an extension close to FMV? There's no way to know for sure but that seems highly unlikely to me given that they have claimed to want to sign him to a multi-year deal since acquiring him.
There's not much that's been reported on his negotiations but Vacchiano did claim in July Williams was looking for 18-20m AAV and that the Giants were under that, which implies there was some offer. My guess is it was close to Jarrett money but the range I gave was $10m less guaranteed than that to be conservative. I think we can safely say the AAV was unlikely to be less than the ~$16m AAV he's made each of the last 2 years.
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I guess if you say he turned down guaranteed money in the $32-48 million range it must be true.
I have doubts, but I'm sure you'll provide some evidence.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a mole to simply look up the going rates at his position (link below). The top 8 players at his position each received between $30m-87m guaranteed - and not all of them did so negotiating with the benefit of the tag as leverage, though most did.
At the time the Giants were negotiating with Williams the most recent of these deals was Grady Jarrett - who was drafted the same year as Williams and had been tagged just like Williams the year prior when his rookie deal expired. He extended right before the July '19 deadline of his tag receiving $42.5m guaranteed.
So the evidence of FMV is...the market. And the fact that the Giants said publicly from day 1 they wanted to extend LW long term. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/guaranteed/defensive-tackle/ - ( New Window )
Never a rocket scientist around when you need one.
So if all this info is available how was a fair deal not struck before they had to franchise him? Obviously somebody didn't think it was fair.
What makes you think these parties will come to a fair deal this year? Williams play seems to be getting more attention, the franchise price tag goes up, the salary cap may go down, might have a new GM, and the cheap rookie contracts on Saquon, Jones and Lawrence burned off another year. Lots goin' on that could affect this up or down.
Imv, the free agent market may be the only thing that brings these disputing parties together. And if that is the case the Giants are better off trading him before it happens. Kind of like the Jets did. Except there is one less sucker team out there now.
Solder
Tate
Peppers (option)
Williams
Dalvin T
Ryan
Johnson
Fackrell
Dion Lewis
D. Freeman
W. Gallman
C. McCoy
C. Fleming
S. Pulley
M. Golden
D. Downs
Colbert
Ebner
Gano
Engram (option)
That's a lot of freed up money.
Almost every player on this roster at the end of the year will either be on their rookie contract OR players like Blake Martinez and James Bradberry who are playing at a high level but are off the books in 2023.
Zeitler is expensive - but he's off the books in 2022.
If you're a GM looking to make a name for yourself - this Giants team is pretty much a blank slate.
So if all this info is available how was a fair deal not struck before they had to franchise him? Obviously somebody didn't think it was fair.
What makes you think these parties will come to a fair deal this year? Williams play seems to be getting more attention, the franchise price tag goes up, the salary cap may go down, might have a new GM, and the cheap rookie contracts on Saquon, Jones and Lawrence burned off another year. Lots goin' on that could affect this up or down.
Imv, the free agent market may be the only thing that brings these disputing parties together. And if that is the case the Giants are better off trading him before it happens. Kind of like the Jets did. Except there is one less sucker team out there now.
It takes 2 sides to agree to a deal. If Williams wants a raise to 18-20m (as reported by Vacchiano) that's his right and I agree with the Giants not giving into it since they have the option of retaining his services cheaper than that via the tag.
It is a free country and anyone can want whatever they want - just as anyone can disagree with them and not accommodate the ask. Williams was always going to be a tricky negotiation for a lot of reasons, including the gray area of his positional classification and strange timing of the trade, which is why I've viewed the deal from day 1 as basically 2 one year options around $17m AAV, which I think is a perfectly fair AAV and relatively risk free investment since the team has all the control. The guy is having a borderline pro bowl year right now and is easily the 2nd best player on a much improved defense. And if you view him as a 2 year contract at the tag value, it's not all that different than the $30m gtd in the first 2 years it took to sign Bradberry (which has been a coup).
Almost every player on this roster at the end of the year will either be on their rookie contract OR players like Blake Martinez and James Bradberry who are playing at a high level but are off the books in 2023.
Zeitler is expensive - but he's off the books in 2022.
If you're a GM looking to make a name for yourself - this Giants team is pretty much a blank slate.
So you think guys like Saquon, Hernandez, Jones, Tomlinson and Lawrence to name a few are going to just get extended on their rookie salaries? The hit is coming...you just can't see it yet.
And I'll keep saying it to...that blank slate of a team wins about 4 games per year.
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In comment 15015579 Dnew15 said:
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but I agree.
Next year's cap situation being actually lowered will really help put the Giants in an even more advantageous position over a lot teams next FA season.
how many teams will be in worse shape regarding the cap than us?
Are you serious?? Right now, we are projected to be in the 6th best cap situation next season.
OTC says we're not even in the top 10.
Link - ( New Window )
The answer is none.
DG inherited a 4 win roster too - with big egos and shitty contracts.
The new guy won't have 2 of those 3 problems. He/she will have literally a blank slate.
As an aside Jason Fitzgerald who runs OTC is a great dude, and one of the really smart people in the sports landscape.
I'd wager the cap is ~180M for 2021 - so with rolled over money from 2020, dead money, and the presumptive top 51 salaries, the Giants are probably around $24M under the 2021 cap.
I think the most likely outcome is the Giants cut Solder, Tate, and Zeitler and net and additional $21.5M
The answer is none.
DG inherited a 4 win roster too - with big egos and shitty contracts.
The new guy won't have 2 of those 3 problems. He/she will have literally a blank slate.
You convinced me. Lets keep Gettleman.