Tannehill spent 6.5 years with the Dolphins, 42-45 record, mediocre at best, a media whipping boy, and was eventually dumped for a 4th and 6th rounder. In 17 regular season games with the Titans, he’s now thrown 35 TDs with only 8 INTs, and beat Brady in the playoffs.
Not sure how many teams wanted Tannehill, but the Titans have struck gold after whiffing on Mariota. Maybe there are lessons to be learned about patience with QBs? Did any of you folks see this coming?
IF the Giants someone get lucky enough to draft Lawerence AND deal Daniel Jones to team with a good supporting cast (ie Indy or the Bears) I could totally see the same situation playing out for DJ.
Same. Eating crow on Tannehill, didn’t think he had it in him.
The real question with Tannehill was whether or not he could stay healthy.
IF the Giants someone get lucky enough to draft Lawerence AND deal Daniel Jones to team with a good supporting cast (ie Indy or the Bears) I could totally see the same situation playing out for DJ.
This may be the case for many QBs. Darnold is talented but that team he's on, oy vey! Could happen to the next annointed one as well, Lawrence.
Tannehill has in front of him, not to mention the mile wide holes they are blowing open for Derrick Henry.
It makes our O-line look like swiss cheese.
Melted swiss cheese.
IF the Giants someone get lucky enough to draft Lawerence AND deal Daniel Jones to team with a good supporting cast (ie Indy or the Bears) I could totally see the same situation playing out for DJ.
I totally agree with this thinking - the hardest part about being a QB is that you take on the responsibility for outcomes of your unit, when so much is out of your control.
Most successful young QB's have good OL's and good running games, and generally good defenses. They have a good offensive system which has been in place for some time and have some vets on offense who know it well.
Of course there are exceptions to every rule, and occasionally you will find that a young QB thrives in the absence of the above, but those are extremely rare.
I think we are seeing some improvement and I love how we're working all of the roster in to see who the real players are. Something tells me this is key to roster development that we've been missing under previous HC's, even Tom Coughlin. If we get the development we hope for from the OL and running game, the defense continues to strengthen and our special teams stays strong, we will be better able to evaluate the QB.
Maybe not all the QB's drafted by the Browns and Jets over 15-20 years were horrible, but the system they were asked to succeed in wasn't ideal. Well we're the same kind of system right now - working our way out of it.
Tannehill to his credit put up yards and did ok in Miami, but never got over the hump. A lot of that was the team whom didn't look to have good coaching until now.
It will be very interesting to see what happens to Trubisky long term, because you can't say the Bears are poorly coached. You'd have to believe he's a fit somewhere.
Tannehill has in front of him, not to mention the mile wide holes they are blowing open for Derrick Henry.
It makes our O-line look like swiss cheese.
Melted swiss cheese.
Same OL that let go Jack Conklin. Funny how that worked out.
Shame though because Taylor Lewan is done for the year. He's a great LT.
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I think it's more a lesson on right player/right time/right team.
IF the Giants someone get lucky enough to draft Lawerence AND deal Daniel Jones to team with a good supporting cast (ie Indy or the Bears) I could totally see the same situation playing out for DJ.
I totally agree with this thinking - the hardest part about being a QB is that you take on the responsibility for outcomes of your unit, when so much is out of your control.
Most successful young QB's have good OL's and good running games, and generally good defenses. They have a good offensive system which has been in place for some time and have some vets on offense who know it well.
Of course there are exceptions to every rule, and occasionally you will find that a young QB thrives in the absence of the above, but those are extremely rare.
I think we are seeing some improvement and I love how we're working all of the roster in to see who the real players are. Something tells me this is key to roster development that we've been missing under previous HC's, even Tom Coughlin. If we get the development we hope for from the OL and running game, the defense continues to strengthen and our special teams stays strong, we will be better able to evaluate the QB.
Maybe not all the QB's drafted by the Browns and Jets over 15-20 years were horrible, but the system they were asked to succeed in wasn't ideal. Well we're the same kind of system right now - working our way out of it.
Completely agree. One qb who I think has projectable top 10 skills in a decent (not great) setting is Darnold. He got the typical Jets treatment of a young qb. The saving grace for him may be that he gets shipped to a situation like Chicago or Indy where he may have an opportunity to shine and be a pro bowl caliber qb.
Tannehill was a solid starter but not a star and not a qb you build around. He was a perfect discounted piece for a team that had all the other pieces in place where he wasn't the center of the offense.
Tannehill has in front of him, not to mention the mile wide holes they are blowing open for Derrick Henry.
It makes our O-line look like swiss cheese.
Melted swiss cheese.
Maybe. Maybe Dalton or Foles could have been the toast of the league they ended up in Tennessee too. Begs the question... isn’t there more than 1 way to skin a cat? The platonic ideal is you draft a QB savior, and your team has a huge turnaround. But those guys only come around every 5-10 years. Maybe keep drafting and signing pieces and then sub out DJ for a vet if he doesn’t work out (like the Titans did with Mariota)? I guess DG would call that QB hell but ....
YPA in Tennessee 9.0. #1 in the NFL last season
Clearly that is a stat that reflects on the aptitude of the QB......
YPA in Tennessee 9.0. #1 in the NFL last season
Clearly that is a stat that reflects on the aptitude of the QB......
What was Mariota’s though? I bet there was pretty dramatic bump the moment Tannehill walking into the same system.
YPA in Tennessee 9.0. #1 in the NFL last season
Clearly that is a stat that reflects on the aptitude of the QB......
Mariota was 7.5 YPA in his career, 7.5 YPA when Tannehill took over. Tannehill immediately changed the system.
Is he now?
Is he now?
Good question, should be interesting to watch. He’s been way more than a game manager so far in Tennessee. Again 35 TDs in just 17 games (with a team whose RB sucks up a big % of the red zone TDs). They became a high flying offense once they moved on from Mariota.
Crazy question ... in the right offense, with the right team, the right coach ... could Jamies Winston be reclaimed? Yea or nay?
Too many teams are all too happy to bring in a shitty backup to prevent the QB they drafted high from feeling the pressure. That's fine for some teams - if they're not ready to compete. But clearly the Titans were ready.
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YPA in Miami 7.0
YPA in Tennessee 9.0. #1 in the NFL last season
Clearly that is a stat that reflects on the aptitude of the QB......
Mariota was 7.5 YPA in his career, 7.5 YPA when Tannehill took over. Tannehill immediately changed the system.
Well, in his last season in Miami, Tannehill's YPA was 7.2 in 11 games.
Brock Osweiler's was 7.0 in 5
In 2019, Ryan Fitzpatrick's was 7.0, a season after he was 9.0 in TB
Glad he's been able to get a second chance in, obviously, a much better situation. The surrounding team is good, but he deserves a lot of credit. With Mariota the titans seemed inept offensively
However, his play can certainly be attributed to the team around him, particuarly the running game.
That running game has to be respected, and that opens up the playbook for everything. They aren't seeing Cover-2 anywhere. That extra safety has to be in the box.
He played so-so in the playoffs (that's being generous) so let's see how the Titans go the rest of the season.
He's certainly on a roll as a QB..........
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In comment 15014775 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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YPA in Miami 7.0
YPA in Tennessee 9.0. #1 in the NFL last season
Clearly that is a stat that reflects on the aptitude of the QB......
Mariota was 7.5 YPA in his career, 7.5 YPA when Tannehill took over. Tannehill immediately changed the system.
Well, in his last season in Miami, Tannehill's YPA was 7.2 in 11 games.
Brock Osweiler's was 7.0 in 5
In 2019, Ryan Fitzpatrick's was 7.0, a season after he was 9.0 in TB
Good points.
However, his play can certainly be attributed to the team around him, particuarly the running game.
That running game has to be respected, and that opens up the playbook for everything. They aren't seeing Cover-2 anywhere. That extra safety has to be in the box.
He played so-so in the playoffs (that's being generous) so let's see how the Titans go the rest of the season.
He's certainly on a roll as a QB..........
I’ve always wondered how much of stardom is situational. Obviously some folks transcend team or scheme, but will be interested to see how Dalton does with the machine he’s been given.
He then goes to a much better team, is playing better, and is winning.
I think the moral of the story is being healthy, having a good coach, and being on a good team, is the recipe for most QBs to succeed.
He then goes to a much better team, is playing better, and is winning.
I think the moral of the story is being healthy, having a good coach, and being on a good team, is the recipe for most QBs to succeed.
Seems like a split of good teams who drafted a QB (KC, Balt, GB, Pitt, NO) and teams that brought in a veteran and are winning (Tenn, SF, TB). Obviously the former is better in a perfect world, but there have just been so many misses at the top of the draft ... Trubisky, Mariota, maybe Darnold and Mayfield etc ... I guess the ultimate proof of “QB as savior“ would be if Lawrence could turn around the Jets or Browns.
Even in this sample size of one, the evidence is conflicting.
It always has to be the "system", OLine, or the Coach
Tom Brady - Coach/System
Aaron Rodgers - System/Weapons
Drew Brees - System/Dome
Matt Ryan - System/Dome
Big Ben - System
Dak Prescott - OLine
Whenever a Non-Giants QB is discussed, especially on how good they are playing, there is always a caveat attached. Why can't they just be good?
Tannehill is playing with a team that is well coached and organized. Sometimes, that's all it takes.
I think Jones has all the upside of a player like Tannehill, if healthy, a 4K 2/1 TD, 10 year starter. The wins will come when the Giants roster resembles the Titans and not the 2017/2018 Dolphins.
The NFL is a team sport and there are a lot of factors that contribute to success (and are required to some degree unless you are Andrew Luck or Aaron Rodgers).
Ironically for us I think there are similarities between Jones and both Tannehill and Smith in terms of skill set. All are big athletic guys with good not great arms. In all 3 cases I think the ability to threaten defenses with their rushing ability is something that not all offensive coaches know how to maximize, and each needed to be molded in a way that maximized their strengths - which is in part why they can end up one man's trash one man's treasure.
I think Jones has all the upside of a player like Tannehill, if healthy, a 4K 2/1 TD, 10 year starter. The wins will come when the Giants roster resembles the Titans and not the 2017/2018 Dolphins.
Agreed. Maybe I have Stockholm Syndrome, but I like the general direction of the OL, like the absence of albatross contracts, and I think the arrow is pointing up. But we shall see vs the skeleton crew they are calling the Eagles.
YPA - 7.5
PPG - 16.3
Record - 2-4
Tannehill - 10 starts
YPA - 9.0
PPG - 30.4
Record - 7-3
Same team, same offense, same coaches, two very different levels of performance. I'm sure similar differences exist in NY/A and AY/A.
The reason this is brought up here is FMiC, for reasons known only to him, thinks that using Daniel Jones's Y/A doesn't tell the story of how poorly he is playing. Why he'd bring that up on a Tannehill thread is again known only to FMiC, but he's been saying strange things on this board for a while now.
YPA - 7.5
PPG - 16.3
Record - 2-4
Tannehill - 10 starts
YPA - 9.0
PPG - 30.4
Record - 7-3
Same team, same offense, same coaches, two very different levels of performance. I'm sure similar differences exist in NY/A and AY/A.
The reason this is brought up here is FMiC, for reasons known only to him, thinks that using Daniel Jones's Y/A doesn't tell the story of how poorly he is playing. Why he'd bring that up on a Tannehill thread is again known only to FMiC, but he's been saying strange things on this board for a while now.
I was thinking that, but chickened out because I’ve been on the receiving side of a withering FMIC attack — and didn’t want to start now. Even though, it is sort of rite of passage lol.
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Mariota - 6 starts
YPA - 7.5
PPG - 16.3
Record - 2-4
Tannehill - 10 starts
YPA - 9.0
PPG - 30.4
Record - 7-3
Same team, same offense, same coaches, two very different levels of performance. I'm sure similar differences exist in NY/A and AY/A.
The reason this is brought up here is FMiC, for reasons known only to him, thinks that using Daniel Jones's Y/A doesn't tell the story of how poorly he is playing. Why he'd bring that up on a Tannehill thread is again known only to FMiC, but he's been saying strange things on this board for a while now.
I was thinking that, but chickened out because I’ve been on the receiving side of a withering FMIC attack — and didn’t want to start now. Even though, it is sort of rite of passage lol.
Meant to say, haven’t been on the receiving end. Damn vodka.
YPA - 7.5
PPG - 16.3
Record - 2-4
Tannehill - 10 starts
YPA - 9.0
PPG - 30.4
Record - 7-3
Same team, same offense, same coaches, two very different levels of performance. I'm sure similar differences exist in NY/A and AY/A.
The reason this is brought up here is FMiC, for reasons known only to him, thinks that using Daniel Jones's Y/A doesn't tell the story of how poorly he is playing. Why he'd bring that up on a Tannehill thread is again known only to FMiC, but he's been saying strange things on this board for a while now.
In this comparison you're missing 1 bigger key number - completion%:
Mariota - 59%
Tannehill - 70%
which translates in another key stat 1st downs per start:
Mariota - 8.3
Tannehill - 12.6
that extra accuracy is what not only allowed Tannehill to keep drives moving but also likely press downfield more with his team in more favorable positions (and in the case of his YAC guys turn short passes into long gains - which AJB did frequently). AJB's injury this year is probably the main reason his Y/A this year is 7.9 which is ironically similar to Mariota's last year and his own earlier career avg. in MIA - so I don't think target depth was necessarily the secret ingredient unlocking Tannehill last year - it was the 8% boost in completion%). Whether it was just a better system fit or his pure passing accuracy has just improved or a combo of both.
Mariota's failing was accuracy, which over a full game meant that on average he was missing multiple throws that could have kept drives moving - as anyone who has watched him play can attest with the eye test.
(im not sure if this comparison was being used to make some point about Daniel Jones, but I feel very good about his accuracy relative to Tannehill, especially on downfield throws, and am pretty sure he'd be just as good if not better as the TEN starting QB - Tannehill's inability to be accurate downfield is what I expect will continue to hold that team back as it did last postseason and unless it improves dramatically from where he was earlier in his career)
YPA is a more dynamic measurement that contributes a lot of factors.
Completion percentage is pretty simple, especially if you are controlling for the same team, same offensive system, same personnel, etc.
Again Tannehill's Y/A this year (7.9) is almost the same as Mariota's was last year (7.5 - which was also his career avg).
And yet Tannehill's overall play has been far superior.
Again - Both Ryan Fitzpatrick and Ryan Tannehill went from having poor YPA's to leading the league in YPA. Fitzpatrick actually went from dead last to first.
What other statistic that is supposedly a metric on a player's abilities fluctuates so wildly? And before you make it sound like those guys are outliers, it is the norm, not the exception to see that.
And Jim - there's no need for me to take issue with your point of view. You've clearly laid out your position. Nothing wrong with posting that Tannehill is doing well. He's doing really well.
Ummm. Not ignored at all. He had a league worst YPA while in Buffalo. Was pedestrian most of his career, then had a 9.0 in tampa.
It actually strengthens the point that an individual player has a stat that makes him poor to terrible and then can suddenly be the best, and that stat is supposed to be reflective of his abilities?
Point amusingly not grasped.
Football discourse has gotten significantly better since the early/mid 2000s. Surely such an article exists if there's significant issues with using YPA in this manner.
Perhaps it is you that should do some education.
Again, try to find a stat that supposedly reflects on player aptitude that changes dramatically when players change teams or have a change in OC.
Again - Both Ryan Fitzpatrick and Ryan Tannehill went from having poor YPA's to leading the league in YPA. Fitzpatrick actually went from dead last to first.
What other statistic that is supposedly a metric on a player's abilities fluctuates so wildly? And before you make it sound like those guys are outliers, it is the norm, not the exception to see that.
And Jim - there's no need for me to take issue with your point of view. You've clearly laid out your position. Nothing wrong with posting that Tannehill is doing well. He's doing really well.
Thanks FMiC, always enjoy reading your POV (and your occasional wrath).