I thought this was a fair comparison. Drafted 7th Overall as the highest player ever taken from the University of Wyoming. Started early into his rookie season after Nathan Peterman started poorly. This is how they compare through each players first 19 starts.
J. Allen D. Jones
1167.....Snaps Taken.....1185
543...Passing Attempts...660
74.5%.....QB Rating......82.6%
55.4%....Completion %....61.6%
19.....Interceptions.....18
16........Fumbles........22
50......Sacks Taken......55
19......Passing Tds......27
11......Rushing Tds.......2
I tried to be as transparent as possible.
Jones fumbled 3.2% of his attempts and Allen 2.8%.
One major difference, which we all know, is that Jones has had to learn a new system under the NFL's covid restrictions.
Giving up on him at this point isn't warranted in my opinion. Isn't it more enjoyable to root for the kid to be the Giant's version of Josh Allen?
1167.....Snaps Taken.....1185
543...Passing Attempts...660
74.5%.....QB Rating......82.6%
55.4%....Completion %....61.6%
19.....Interceptions.....18
16........Fumbles........22
50......Sacks Taken......55
19......Passing Tds......27
11......Rushing Tds.......2
Had you done so, you would have seen Allen making plays, especially with his legs the second half of 2108 where he actually led the league in rushing the last six games of the year. And he was making some unbelievable throws despite a receiving corp that included Zay Jones and Robert Foster.
In other words, Allen should he had force multiplier capabilities. Jones has none of that so far...unfortunately.
BUF OL is MUCH better than the Giants (today).
Allen is a far better athlete. Much better arm talent. Much better runner. And as a runner Allen attacks the D.
Jones is a good runner in the open field. Maybe better accuracy. Jones looks short to mid while Allen is a deep ball thrower.
Had you done so, you would have seen Allen making plays, especially with his legs the second half of 2108 where he actually led the league in rushing the last six games of the year. And he was making some unbelievable throws despite a receiving corp that included Zay Jones and Robert Foster.
In other words, Allen should he had force multiplier capabilities. Jones has none of that so far...unfortunately.
Sounds like you dont either. Allen consistently misses his guy who is wide open and has much better set of receivers in favor of improvised runs.
Jones has pretty consistently made fantastic bucket and sideline throws even after his blocking fails. He also has shown incredible guts running the ball when he has to. Two years, ywo systems.
Buffalo has fielded a far better team than we've had the past two years and Jones has been above average. The turnovers are a huge problem that can get fixed. But you are a broken record on Jones bw and you always have been. You didnt like him and as a result have rooted against him. Not an unbiased bone in your body.
Allen is a far better athlete. Much better arm talent. Much better runner. And as a runner Allen attacks the D.
Jones is a good runner in the open field. Maybe better accuracy. Jones looks short to mid while Allen is a deep ball thrower.
He has a stronger arm but was heavily criticized for being inaccurate downfield.
I don't know how you come up with better athlete. Allen had to go to a junior college only to get one offer to play in college from University of Wyoming. Not saying he's not a stud just wondering why you don't think Jones is not a good an athlete as him.
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think these players are that comparable, other than maybe size.
Allen is a far better athlete. Much better arm talent. Much better runner. And as a runner Allen attacks the D.
Jones is a good runner in the open field. Maybe better accuracy. Jones looks short to mid while Allen is a deep ball thrower.
He has a stronger arm but was heavily criticized for being inaccurate downfield.
I don't know how you come up with better athlete. Allen had to go to a junior college only to get one offer to play in college from University of Wyoming. Not saying he's not a stud just wondering why you don't think Jones is not a good an athlete as him.
Allen is athletically a unicorn. He's huge. He's a great runner. Defenders have a hard time taking him down, he's strong as heck. And I have heard stories of Cosell, Aikman, etc etc talking about being on the field when he throws the ball. It's just different when the ball comes out of his hands. His arm talent ranks with some of the best ever. He can throw passes across his body running one way to the other side of the field with unreal zip.
He does have accuracy issues, not so much with the deep ball but with simpler balls. And he's not consistent. Honestly, I am surprised how well he's doing but he's making his unusual skill set work. But I don't know if he can sustain excellence over a long career. I just don;t know. But athletically he is amazing.
For weeks now I've watched back up QBs -- yes including Andy Dalton -- take their team down the field in the last drive of a game and score a winning TD or put them in field goal range. I saw them do it with a big play and throw of over 30 yards. I HAVE YET TO SEE JONES DO THIS. I have seen Kyle Allen do it yesterday with an equally bad roster. I have watched Mullens decimate this defense with 10 back-up players.
I remember Josh Allen in college playing in a Wyoming game. and I don't watch college a lot. He was good even back then. Eli was good at Ol Miss. JONES HAS SHOWN NOTHING EXCEPT THAT HE CAN BE AN NFL WINNING QB.
He was never anything special in college. This season it looks like the coaches are trying o minimize his turnovers and not letting him air it out. Or maybe it is a confidence problem, but he does not look to pass more than like 5 yards. All of the back-ups the Giants played are better than him this year.
For weeks now I've watched back up QBs -- yes including Andy Dalton -- take their team down the field in the last drive of a game and score a winning TD or put them in field goal range. I saw them do it with a big play and throw of over 30 yards. I HAVE YET TO SEE JONES DO THIS. I have seen Kyle Allen do it yesterday with an equally bad roster. I have watched Mullens decimate this defense with 10 back-up players.
I remember Josh Allen in college playing in a Wyoming game. and I don't watch college a lot. He was good even back then. Eli was good at Ol Miss. JONES HAS SHOWN NOTHING EXCEPT THAT HE CAN BE AN NFL WINNING QB.
He was never anything special in college. This season it looks like the coaches are trying o minimize his turnovers and not letting him air it out. Or maybe it is a confidence problem, but he does not look to pass more than like 5 yards. All of the back-ups the Giants played are better than him this year.
sadly, I think this might be all true.. we all hope Danny Boy can RISE ABOVE! See what I did there? ;)
through his first 19 games? No he doesn't. Allen had 3,567 and Jones' has had 4,250.
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Allen has 2500 more passing yards.
I guess the goole search was wrong. I'll go double check it.
through his first 19 games? No he doesn't. Allen had 3,567 and Jones' has had 4,250.
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In comment 15015197 smshmth8690 said:
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Allen has 2500 more passing yards.
I guess the goole search was wrong. I'll go double check it.
through his first 19 games? No he doesn't. Allen had 3,567 and Jones' has had 4,250.
My mistake, bad post.
The front office -likely a revamped one - will need to view his body of work and make a critical decisions in light of the fact that he isn't likely to have top talent around him anytime soon. Personally, I see some good things, but largely cannot see projectable top 10 qb talent.
if a star QB never presents himself to you, sure. But if you see a franchise changing QB in front of you, you take him.
Allen as a starter: 19-15
You sound very raw about being very wrong about a lot of things...
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prepared to hear some happy horseshit about how Allen elevates his teammates while Jones could easily be replaced by andy Dalton.
You sound very raw about being very wrong about a lot of things...
You might want to watch the Dallas game. It isn't exactly shining a beacon of correctness on the idea that Dalton would be 3-3 with the Giants.
In fact, it sounds fucking moronic.
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prepared to hear some happy horseshit about how Allen elevates his teammates while Jones could easily be replaced by andy Dalton.
You sound very raw about being very wrong about a lot of things...
Nobody values your input
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In comment 15015124 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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prepared to hear some happy horseshit about how Allen elevates his teammates while Jones could easily be replaced by andy Dalton.
You sound very raw about being very wrong about a lot of things...
You might want to watch the Dallas game. It isn't exactly shining a beacon of correctness on the idea that Dalton would be 3-3 with the Giants.
In fact, it sounds fucking moronic.
Dalton is a poor man's Kirk Cousins. You're never winning shit with that guy.
Sounds like you dont either. Allen consistently misses his guy who is wide open and has much better set of receivers in favor of improvised runs.
Jones has pretty consistently made fantastic bucket and sideline throws even after his blocking fails. He also has shown incredible guts running the ball when he has to. Two years, ywo systems.
Buffalo has fielded a far better team than we've had the past two years and Jones has been above average. The turnovers are a huge problem that can get fixed. But you are a broken record on Jones bw and you always have been. You didnt like him and as a result have rooted against him. Not an unbiased bone in your body.
Allen is completing 69% of his passes now that he finally has dependable receivers with a 83+ YTD QBR. And he's one of the best improv/running QBs in the NFL. He's a legit play-maker with more plus-plus skills than Jones.
I didn't like the Jones pick because where he was drafted. He was over-drafted. And I don't root against him.
But he's morphing into another Giants QB who needs this huge infrastructure to succeed. And that's not what a #6 pick should require. He should be the one doing the elevating, not the one who needs to be elevated.
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Sounds like you dont either. Allen consistently misses his guy who is wide open and has much better set of receivers in favor of improvised runs.
Jones has pretty consistently made fantastic bucket and sideline throws even after his blocking fails. He also has shown incredible guts running the ball when he has to. Two years, ywo systems.
Buffalo has fielded a far better team than we've had the past two years and Jones has been above average. The turnovers are a huge problem that can get fixed. But you are a broken record on Jones bw and you always have been. You didnt like him and as a result have rooted against him. Not an unbiased bone in your body.
Allen is completing 69% of his passes now that he finally has dependable receivers with a 83+ YTD QBR. And he's one of the best improv/running QBs in the NFL. He's a legit play-maker with more plus-plus skills than Jones.
I didn't like the Jones pick because where he was drafted. He was over-drafted. And I don't root against him.
But he's morphing into another Giants QB who needs this huge infrastructure to succeed. And that's not what a #6 pick should require. He should be the one doing the elevating, not the one who needs to be elevated.
Allen is certainly productive this season but many of the mechanical problems and deficits remain. Can a QB with bad footwork, dodgy mechanics, who botches easy passes really succeed at an elite level in the NFL? I guess we are going to find out, b ut make no mistake, many of the problems are still there. He is playing well in spite of these defects.
Of course, the guys who “hate” DJ and blame him for all our woes won’t be interested and probably won’t even spend a minute or two to ponder the numbers.
You guys probably should convert to Jets fans since you want Trevor Lawrence so badly. The chances of you getting him is far far greater as a Jet than a Giant. You see, our boys are still playing hard and improving, even if in small bits. And we fans, who understand football, and understand DJ and the entire team are having to learn a new system without any preseason....well, let’s just say, we are much more patient and willing to watch, observe, and then process before we speak.... we still need much more data and facts to process before we can draw our conclusions.
I hear they do have pretty good meds for people with impulsive disorders.
Clearly Giants receivers are marginal and the O line is godawful which make Jones job damn near impossible. With better support, I think Jones can win in the league, but if for some reason the Giants get a shot at TL, I'd take him.
Clearly Giants receivers are marginal and the O line is godawful which make Jones job damn near impossible. With better support, I think Jones can win in the league, but if for some reason the Giants get a shot at TL, I'd take him.
i generally like your thoughts but no way is Jones better than Eli. In his prime Eli was unflappable, had a better gun than Jones, let it loose downfield, was a great decision maker and threw daggers with great anticipation. When Eli declined he lost it all but for six or seven seasons Eli was really good and he was unconscious during the two super bowl runs.
I'd add Allen had 148 more yards rushing in his first 12 starts than Jones does in 18. Maybe the fault of coaching more than anything, but that seems to be a huge difference.
[quote] prepared to hear some happy horseshit about how Allen elevates his teammates while Jones could easily be replaced by andy Dalton. [/quot
if you want to pretend that Josh Allen and Daniel Jones are similar caliber players thats your prerogative. But you were also the captain of the "build behind Eli" disaster for 3-4 years.
[quote] prepared to hear some happy horseshit about how Allen elevates his teammates while Jones could easily be replaced by andy Dalton. [/quot
if you want to pretend that Josh Allen and Daniel Jones are similar caliber players thats your prerogative. But you were also the captain of the "build behind Eli" disaster for 3-4 years.
That's interesting since I thought he should have been gone in 2018. Once he was benched for Geno Smith, his time here should have ended.
But I guess I was the Captain. Right, Ace?
Do you think Jones would do as good of a job dealing with the fierce New Jersey winds at night as Eli did?
Clearly Giants receivers are marginal and the O line is godawful which make Jones job damn near impossible. With better support, I think Jones can win in the league, but if for some reason the Giants get a shot at TL, I'd take him.
What does Eli have to do with anything? And quicker release? For decades, in football talk a "quick release" always meant the seconds a qb throws the ball after getting the snap. Eli's was 2/10ths of a second faster than the average in the last game he played and was something like 2.8 seconds. And we are comparing a QB who retired at nearly 40 years old. wtf?
Is that all people see is a mobile QB? I have news for you that jones sucks at running and throwing. he pretty much sucks at throwing in general esp under any pressure whether blitzes or crunch time. But running out of the pocket for the sideline, and trying to throw a half step before running out of bounds instead of just 3 steps out of the pocket and firing ; is a low percentage throw. And one he always tries to make when running and throwing
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prime years. The O line could block, Jacobs and Bradshaw were terrific, and the receivers were fast, ran precise routes, and could get separation. Bradshaw was quick and elusive and Jacobs barreled over the opposition. He holds the Giants record for career TD's. The defensive line was lights out and while the LBs were only okay, the defensive backfield was smart, fast, and could defend. I grant you that Eli could read the field better, but in time Jones should learn this as well. Too bad we can't see what Jones might have done on those teams.
Do you think Jones would do as good of a job dealing with the fierce New Jersey winds at night as Eli did?
Did you actually see Eli those first couple of years? Hell, he struggled with the wind in the playoff game versus the Eagles in 2009.
Now, he's struggled the last two weeks (versus good teams).
But Allen has the better arm, and is bigger, stronger, and faster in terms of how he runs and avoids the rush.
I like DJ and am rooting for him, but DJ shouldn't have even been remotely a pick for the NYG in 2019.
The Giants should have taken Josh Allen over Barkley.
Had you done so, you would have seen Allen making plays, especially with his legs the second half of 2108 where he actually led the league in rushing the last six games of the year. And he was making some unbelievable throws despite a receiving corp that included Zay Jones and Robert Foster.
In other words, Allen should he had force multiplier capabilities. Jones has none of that so far...unfortunately.
Had you done this thing called the eye test you would see allen missing his receivers by 5+ yards in every single game, while jones is hitting perfecctly placed passes on tiny windows.
If jones ever played a game like Allen did tonite, or in his playoff game last season you would never hear the end of it.
Had you done this thing called the eye test you would see allen missing his receivers by 5+ yards in every single game, while jones is hitting perfecctly placed passes on tiny windows.
If jones ever played a game like Allen did tonite, or in his playoff game last season you would never hear the end of it.
Yes, Allen gets wild. And Jones throw a prettier ball. But Allen is still completing 69% of his passes. Is that luck now?
And if you truly watch Allen you will see that he's got GREAT escapability, extends a play, and then makes big plays when things break down. It's a bigger, more athletic Roethlisberger.
But keep thinking Jones is doing the same thing...
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Had you done this thing called the eye test you would see allen missing his receivers by 5+ yards in every single game, while jones is hitting perfecctly placed passes on tiny windows.
If jones ever played a game like Allen did tonite, or in his playoff game last season you would never hear the end of it.
Yes, Allen gets wild. And Jones throw a prettier ball. But Allen is still completing 69% of his passes. Is that luck now?
And if you truly watch Allen you will see that he's got GREAT escapability, extends a play, and then makes big plays when things break down. It's a bigger, more athletic Roethlisberger.
But keep thinking Jones is doing the same thing...
Im not saying its luck but he tossed the ball like shit tonight thats for sure. He missed a TON of wide open throws that wouldve kept drives alive. Wide open.
Allen's inconsistency with ball placement accuracy is absolutely maddening. I mostly agree with Producer's post above about the plethora of problems Allen has mechanically. Yeah he's a great raw physical talent, so what? Comparing him to Big Ben is a ridiculous joke of a take! The obvious predecessor and "model" to compare Josh Allen to is Cam Newton.
Who has exactly how many SB rings? Zero.
Will Allen ever get the mental side of the game to be an ultimate winner? That's a very serious question for both Allen and Jones.
Eli won 2 rings for the Giants' franchise based primarily on 3 things: brains, toughness, and the uncanny ability to rise to the moment, which at least partly was based on his possession of the first two SB Winner traits I mentioned. Add "unflappability", cool as the other side of the pillow.
Neither Josh Allen nor Daniel Jones has shown that yet, although its still early for both of them.
Forget Allen's physical attributes. They're nice, but if you compare Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Joe Montana and Tom Brady, none of them have anything close to the Cam Newton like physical profile Allen has, and it simply doesn't matter.
Other positive traits are FAR more important.
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He has a quicker release, throws a tighter spiral, and his velocity is the equal of Manning's. And he's clearly more mobile and can throw more accurately on the run. That said, I rate Allen higher than Jones. Stronger arm, quicker release, even more mobile, and harder to bring down. While Allen at times misses his target, he's more accurate on the run than Jones. And as a runner, he's faster and harder to bring down. Allen is also clearly the leader on the team and from what I read, is not afraid to talk trash to the opposition on the playing field. I wanted the Giants to draft Allen and was disappointed when DG opted for the running back. I'm delighted that the Jets also passed on Allen and took Darnold, but I fear that soon the Jets will dump Darnold and draft TL.
Clearly Giants receivers are marginal and the O line is godawful which make Jones job damn near impossible. With better support, I think Jones can win in the league, but if for some reason the Giants get a shot at TL, I'd take him.
What does Eli have to do with anything? And quicker release? For decades, in football talk a "quick release" always meant the seconds a qb throws the ball after getting the snap. Eli's was 2/10ths of a second faster than the average in the last game he played and was something like 2.8 seconds. And we are comparing a QB who retired at nearly 40 years old. wtf?
Is that all people see is a mobile QB? I have news for you that jones sucks at running and throwing. he pretty much sucks at throwing in general esp under any pressure whether blitzes or crunch time. But running out of the pocket for the sideline, and trying to throw a half step before running out of bounds instead of just 3 steps out of the pocket and firing ; is a low percentage throw. And one he always tries to make when running and throwing
"quick release" has nothing to do with "time to throw". You are embarassing yourself. Mahomes has one of the quickest releases in the league and is dead last in time to throw.
Had you done so, you would have seen Allen making plays, especially with his legs the second half of 2108 where he actually led the league in rushing the last six games of the year. And he was making some unbelievable throws despite a receiving corp that included Zay Jones and Robert Foster.
In other words, Allen should he had force multiplier capabilities. Jones has none of that so far...unfortunately.
and during this so called "eye test" did you happen to see cole beasley and john brown or you somehow missed those guys? Now he has Diggs, Brown, Beasley and gabriel Davis. Josh Allen was my guy in that draft i loved him i was on this board praising allen. Lets give jones a team around him before we say what he isnt doing. And if you actually watch the games you will see how many plays jones makes per week eluding rushers and moving the chains. His ability to extend plays with his legs and also keeping his eyes downfield and taking shots is the only reason we have been in these games each week.
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In comment 15015316 GeofromNJ said:
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He has a quicker release, throws a tighter spiral, and his velocity is the equal of Manning's. And he's clearly more mobile and can throw more accurately on the run. That said, I rate Allen higher than Jones. Stronger arm, quicker release, even more mobile, and harder to bring down. While Allen at times misses his target, he's more accurate on the run than Jones. And as a runner, he's faster and harder to bring down. Allen is also clearly the leader on the team and from what I read, is not afraid to talk trash to the opposition on the playing field. I wanted the Giants to draft Allen and was disappointed when DG opted for the running back. I'm delighted that the Jets also passed on Allen and took Darnold, but I fear that soon the Jets will dump Darnold and draft TL.
Clearly Giants receivers are marginal and the O line is godawful which make Jones job damn near impossible. With better support, I think Jones can win in the league, but if for some reason the Giants get a shot at TL, I'd take him.
What does Eli have to do with anything? And quicker release? For decades, in football talk a "quick release" always meant the seconds a qb throws the ball after getting the snap. Eli's was 2/10ths of a second faster than the average in the last game he played and was something like 2.8 seconds. And we are comparing a QB who retired at nearly 40 years old. wtf?
Is that all people see is a mobile QB? I have news for you that jones sucks at running and throwing. he pretty much sucks at throwing in general esp under any pressure whether blitzes or crunch time. But running out of the pocket for the sideline, and trying to throw a half step before running out of bounds instead of just 3 steps out of the pocket and firing ; is a low percentage throw. And one he always tries to make when running and throwing
"quick release" has nothing to do with "time to throw". You are embarassing yourself. Mahomes has one of thue quickest releases in the league and is dead last in time to throw.
ah yes it does. You are the one embarrassing yourself. I guess I insulted your llitlle hero. This guy is terrible. Back-up QBs WITH EQUALLY SHITTY TEAMS PLAY BETTER. PLAY CONFIDENT, THROW THE BALL DOWN FIELD. HAVE WORSE DEFENSES THAN OURS LIKE DALLAS AND DATON STILL DID IT
Link - ( New Window )
Clearly Giants receivers are marginal and the O line is godawful which make Jones job damn near impossible. With better support, I think Jones can win in the league, but if for some reason the Giants get a shot at TL, I'd take him.
Eli was special. He had that "It factor" that made him a super clutch player. So far Jones has not shown that. He has had 3 games so far this season (yes a small sample) in which he had a chance to mount a last minute drive to win or at least sent the game into OT. He came up small each time.
It is too early to conclude anything definitively, but through 6 games this year one is showing significant improvement (Allen) and one is plateauing/regressing (Jones).
You can say it is the change in systems impacting Jones,or the line, or the WRs, and that’s fair. But if all QBs were subject to a redraft, I don’t think you would see Jones go before Allen.
Jones had 3 years of pro-level coaching at a Power 5 school and a year under Manning's wing. The other guy went to that football factory at Wyoming and was thrown in the deep end of the pool as the focus of the offense and is doing just fine- top 10 in the NFL in yards, yards per attempt, td's, qb rating, and regular rating. The Bills are 4-2 having just completed a 4 game stretch against the Rams, Raiders, Titans and Chiefs.
Please continue to list your weekly excuses for Danny Dimes.
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He has a quicker release, throws a tighter spiral, and his velocity is the equal of Manning's. And he's clearly more mobile and can throw more accurately on the run. That said, I rate Allen higher than Jones. Stronger arm, quicker release, even more mobile, and harder to bring down. While Allen at times misses his target, he's more accurate on the run than Jones. And as a runner, he's faster and harder to bring down. Allen is also clearly the leader on the team and from what I read, is not afraid to talk trash to the opposition on the playing field. I wanted the Giants to draft Allen and was disappointed when DG opted for the running back. I'm delighted that the Jets also passed on Allen and took Darnold, but I fear that soon the Jets will dump Darnold and draft TL.
Clearly Giants receivers are marginal and the O line is godawful which make Jones job damn near impossible. With better support, I think Jones can win in the league, but if for some reason the Giants get a shot at TL, I'd take him.
What does Eli have to do with anything? And quicker release? For decades, in football talk a "quick release" always meant the seconds a qb throws the ball after getting the snap. Eli's was 2/10ths of a second faster than the average in the last game he played and was something like 2.8 seconds. And we are comparing a QB who retired at nearly 40 years old. wtf?
Is that all people see is a mobile QB? I have news for you that jones sucks at running and throwing. he pretty much sucks at throwing in general esp under any pressure whether blitzes or crunch time. But running out of the pocket for the sideline, and trying to throw a half step before running out of bounds instead of just 3 steps out of the pocket and firing ; is a low percentage throw. And one he always tries to make when running and throwing
If you think quick release has ever referred to the seconds after a ball is hiked i seriously question ur football understanding
Allen's inconsistency with ball placement accuracy is absolutely maddening. I mostly agree with Producer's post above about the plethora of problems Allen has mechanically. Yeah he's a great raw physical talent, so what? Comparing him to Big Ben is a ridiculous joke of a take! The obvious predecessor and "model" to compare Josh Allen to is Cam Newton.
Who has exactly how many SB rings? Zero.
Will Allen ever get the mental side of the game to be an ultimate winner? That's a very serious question for both Allen and Jones.
Eli won 2 rings for the Giants' franchise based primarily on 3 things: brains, toughness, and the uncanny ability to rise to the moment, which at least partly was based on his possession of the first two SB Winner traits I mentioned. Add "unflappability", cool as the other side of the pillow.
Neither Josh Allen nor Daniel Jones has shown that yet, although its still early for both of them.
Forget Allen's physical attributes. They're nice, but if you compare Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Joe Montana and Tom Brady, none of them have anything close to the Cam Newton like physical profile Allen has, and it simply doesn't matter.
Other positive traits are FAR more important.
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In comment 15015316 GeofromNJ said:
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He has a quicker release, throws a tighter spiral, and his velocity is the equal of Manning's. And he's clearly more mobile and can throw more accurately on the run. That said, I rate Allen higher than Jones. Stronger arm, quicker release, even more mobile, and harder to bring down. While Allen at times misses his target, he's more accurate on the run than Jones. And as a runner, he's faster and harder to bring down. Allen is also clearly the leader on the team and from what I read, is not afraid to talk trash to the opposition on the playing field. I wanted the Giants to draft Allen and was disappointed when DG opted for the running back. I'm delighted that the Jets also passed on Allen and took Darnold, but I fear that soon the Jets will dump Darnold and draft TL.
Clearly Giants receivers are marginal and the O line is godawful which make Jones job damn near impossible. With better support, I think Jones can win in the league, but if for some reason the Giants get a shot at TL, I'd take him.
What does Eli have to do with anything? And quicker release? For decades, in football talk a "quick release" always meant the seconds a qb throws the ball after getting the snap. Eli's was 2/10ths of a second faster than the average in the last game he played and was something like 2.8 seconds. And we are comparing a QB who retired at nearly 40 years old. wtf?
Is that all people see is a mobile QB? I have news for you that jones sucks at running and throwing. he pretty much sucks at throwing in general esp under any pressure whether blitzes or crunch time. But running out of the pocket for the sideline, and trying to throw a half step before running out of bounds instead of just 3 steps out of the pocket and firing ; is a low percentage throw. And one he always tries to make when running and throwing
If you think quick release has ever referred to the seconds after a ball is hiked i seriously question ur football understanding
The two are hand in hand. I always have seen them referred in the same context. Since Dan Marino it is always in that context. Quit picking knits.
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In comment 15015316 GeofromNJ said:
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He has a quicker release, throws a tighter spiral, and his velocity is the equal of Manning's. And he's clearly more mobile and can throw more accurately on the run. That said, I rate Allen higher than Jones. Stronger arm, quicker release, even more mobile, and harder to bring down. While Allen at times misses his target, he's more accurate on the run than Jones. And as a runner, he's faster and harder to bring down. Allen is also clearly the leader on the team and from what I read, is not afraid to talk trash to the opposition on the playing field. I wanted the Giants to draft Allen and was disappointed when DG opted for the running back. I'm delighted that the Jets also passed on Allen and took Darnold, but I fear that soon the Jets will dump Darnold and draft TL.
Clearly Giants receivers are marginal and the O line is godawful which make Jones job damn near impossible. With better support, I think Jones can win in the league, but if for some reason the Giants get a shot at TL, I'd take him.
What does Eli have to do with anything? And quicker release? For decades, in football talk a "quick release" always meant the seconds a qb throws the ball after getting the snap. Eli's was 2/10ths of a second faster than the average in the last game he played and was something like 2.8 seconds. And we are comparing a QB who retired at nearly 40 years old. wtf?
Is that all people see is a mobile QB? I have news for you that jones sucks at running and throwing. he pretty much sucks at throwing in general esp under any pressure whether blitzes or crunch time. But running out of the pocket for the sideline, and trying to throw a half step before running out of bounds instead of just 3 steps out of the pocket and firing ; is a low percentage throw. And one he always tries to make when running and throwing
If you think quick release has ever referred to the seconds after a ball is hiked i seriously question ur football understanding
Why don't you find me where someone holds the ball for too long but yet is heralded for their "quick release". It doesn't fucking happen
Especially, with most of his throwing mistakes seemingly in the red zone this year.
Watching the KC Oline last night made me really jealous.
To date, Allen is third in the league at 84.9, just behind Rodgers and Mahomes. Jones is 24th in the league at 55.4, behind recently drafted peers like Minshew, Mayfield, Murray, LJax, Herbert.
And in YPA, Allen is 10th at 7.9. Jones is 29th at 6.1.
Allen’s receivers are 7th in the league with the highest drop %. Jones’s receivers are 13th.
Homer said it best. If both Allen and Jones were back in the draft right now there is little doubt the overwhelming majority of GMs are taking Allen right now over Jones. And outside of Gettleman, it’s probably unanimous.
In Allen's favor is that his play has improved each year - year 2 was significantly better than year 1, and year 3 is far better than both. I don't think even the most ardent DJ supporters would argue that this year is better than last.
Why don't you get another QB who can throw the ball well deep; with confidence; and play without a great o line like Payton Manning or Andrew luck? Or at least take a sack wo fumbling? Isn't that what a #6 pick should do?
Had you done so, you would have seen Allen making plays, especially with his legs the second half of 2108 where he actually led the league in rushing the last six games of the year. And he was making some unbelievable throws despite a receiving corp that included Zay Jones and Robert Foster.
In other words, Allen should he had force multiplier capabilities. Jones has none of that so far...unfortunately.
Sounds like you don't do the "eye test" either because Jones looked good second half last year. & last year Allen only started playing well the last like 6 or so games of the season.
Sounds like you don't do the "eye test" either because Jones looked good second half last year. & last year Allen only started playing well the last like 6 or so games of the season.
The "eye test" comment wasn't about seeing Jones.
It was about those who act like they watch Allen play and then boil his play down to numbers - like the OP - and suggest Jones is in Allen's company as a playmaker.
Hey, if we are going to be subjective, Allen has had the luxury of playing behind a very good OL and a defense last season that was in the top 5. Makes it really easy to make a mistake or take a gamble and not have it hurt too much.
what I don't get is that people look around the league each week and see the impact that pressure on a QB has. It's why the play of Aaron Rodgers on Sunday was dismissed, for example, but when discussing Jones, it is just some pesky thing he has to overcome.
Aaron Rodgers didn't play well. Aaron Rodgers was pressured all game. Aaron Rodgers has faced pressure before AND played well. Aaron Rodgers light your secondaries ass on fire if you pressure him and he's is palying well that day. He also has a cannon for an arm and can run and throw better than anyone.
jones on the other hand has consistently played bad week after week.
Sometimes Saquon plays well. Sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes he gets hurt and Gallman and Freeman rush for a combined 100 yards in the Dallas game.
But when posters here make blanket statements like well of course Jones can't play well this line is no good; or his receivers stink; or saquon is hurt and they have no runninggmae. It is just excuse making. They don't always play bad. I have yet to see Jones make big plays except with him running. That is a big problem!
In their two prior games, both wins over New Orleans and Atlanta, Rodgers threw to such WR household names such as: Jace Sternberger, Robert Tanyan, Allan Lazard, Valdes-Scantling.
So he continues to make chicken salad...
Jones has been pressured on more than half of his attempts this season. In 201 attempts, he's been pressured 104 times, and that doesn't even take into account times he takes off and runs.
You see QB's under duress each week that dramatically impacts their performance. When it happens with Jones, the narrative ends up being that he sucks.
Do people think Archie Manning was some no talent bum because he never won? The guy was an incredible football player who played on some of the most historically bad teams.
We've had people comparing the situation Jones is in to the situations Lamar Jackson and Pat Mahomes stepped into.
Those of you who think Jones should be carrying this team to victory probably think Dan Marino wasn't great because, you know, he never carried those Dolphins teams!
Jones has been pressured on more than half of his attempts this season. In 201 attempts, he's been pressured 104 times, and that doesn't even take into account times he takes off and runs.
You see QB's under duress each week that dramatically impacts their performance. When it happens with Jones, the narrative ends up being that he sucks.
nobody denies that all QBs suffer when under pressure. Most QB analysts however, who watch all the tape, game after game, try to isolate QB mechanics, tendencies, skills and flaws in isolation. The footwork doesn't change, the arm talent doesn't change, you can get a sense of decision making and accuracy. The tape shows things even when the QB doesn't have a great supporting cast. Right now, DJ isn't showing the skills of a top-10 QB. Could he be a starting QB, long term, in this league, maybe. And maybe he could become great. But the era of waiting for an average QB to bloom into a great one in six years, is sort of over. That's why I think is DJ doesn't improve dramatically by the end of this season, the Giants will think about getting a new QB if there is one available to them that they like better. There are no analysts I have heard that think DJ will develop into a top tier QB.
Not-so-great QBs struggle mightily when under pressure.
Not-so-great QBs struggle mightily when under pressure.
many of us remember when Brady had a garbage line, a few years back, maybe five or six, and for the first four games of the season he was outperformed by Geno Smith (Jets). Well the line pulled together and Brady won a super bowl. I think what is often underestimated is how the QB works with the line to get the best out of the line. Brady is a highly adaptable QB, it's one of his super powers. He can shorten the passing game and make adjustments to play to the strength of his line. There is no excuse for an NFL QB failing with the line, play after play, game after game, with no effort to adjust and make something work. In today's NFL most of the lines go thru periods of total incompetence.
Not-so-great QBs struggle mightily when under pressure.
I'll do a breakdown of QB's who have been pressured on more than half of their attempts.
Oh wait - there's only one.....
yes it is true. I just think we need to stop making excuses. Rodgers has played with bad lines. He just lost two OLs. Mahomes lost his backup LT. Great players eventually find a way. Wilson played with a bum line for years. In this era, every QB will be saddled with a bad line at some point. If we need a perfect situation for DJ to thrive, he ain't the guy. We can't make a perfect roster for him, and if we can, it won't be for very long, meanwhile top QBs go to the playoffs every year. Look at the best teams in the league, it is a who's who of the best QBs in the league.
Look at the Cardinals, they were 3-13 the year they drafted Kyler and we got Jones. Their roster was as bad as ours, or worse. Did you watch the game last night? They look like a playoff team. How have they jumped so far ahead of us? Is it a coincidence that Kyler is playing great and Jones is playing poorly? Their line in that 3-win season was atrocious. Now suddenly they have a great line and we still can't put one together? The excuses some are making for DJ make no sense to me.
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And more often than not, they burn the Defense. Sunday against Tampa doesn't happen often. That is why Rodgers is great.
Not-so-great QBs struggle mightily when under pressure.
I'll do a breakdown of QB's who have been pressured on more than half of their attempts.
Oh wait - there's only one.....
Well then everybody else must be great because they're not getting enough pressure.
Just to fall off the wagon again.
14-of-32 (43.8%) 1 TD 3 INT
League low in completion % and rating (22.4) among all full-season starters in the red zone.
Link - ( New Window )
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you're talking about a guy who has been in the league a long time at that point.
yes it is true. I just think we need to stop making excuses. Rodgers has played with bad lines. He just lost two OLs. Mahomes lost his backup LT. Great players eventually find a way. Wilson played with a bum line for years. In this era, every QB will be saddled with a bad line at some point. If we need a perfect situation for DJ to thrive, he ain't the guy. We can't make a perfect roster for him, and if we can, it won't be for very long, meanwhile top QBs go to the playoffs every year. Look at the best teams in the league, it is a who's who of the best QBs in the league.
Look at the Cardinals, they were 3-13 the year they drafted Kyler and we got Jones. Their roster was as bad as ours, or worse. Did you watch the game last night? They look like a playoff team. How have they jumped so far ahead of us? Is it a coincidence that Kyler is playing great and Jones is playing poorly? Their line in that 3-win season was atrocious. Now suddenly they have a great line and we still can't put one together? The excuses some are making for DJ make no sense to me.
Kyler Murray, his offensive lineman, receivers and backs in the same system they were in last season. We're talking about quarterbacks in their first two seasons and how they develop.
The traps and short screens that the Chiefs run, as an example, isn't done in 5-6 games and no pre-season. It takes more than one season to perfect that. Especially for a team as young as the Giants.
You can choose to blame Jones, as a lot of other fans are. But I know I can root for the development and it's a hell of lot more fun with that mindset come Sunday.
I've only coached football at the 7th-8th grade level so I'm no expert. But I know that a system takes time...because everyone on the field has to know it. It's not just one guy. I honestly think its still to early. If we get to the end of the season and are still seeing the turnovers, lack of scoring and ability to move the ball than I'll bite. Not now though and I'm not a "Jones Defender"...I'm just patient and understand you can't just be one good player and make everyone around you better. It's not that simple.
It is clear by most objective measures one player is improving, and the other is not. Why else would you compare two players at a point in time unless you are trying to argue they are on similar or different trajectories in their progress?
Look at the Cardinals, they were 3-13 the year they drafted Kyler and we got Jones. Their roster was as bad as ours, or worse. Did you watch the game last night? They look like a playoff team. How have they jumped so far ahead of us? Is it a coincidence that Kyler is playing great and Jones is playing poorly? Their line in that 3-win season was atrocious. Now suddenly they have a great line and we still can't put one together? The excuses some are making for DJ make no sense to me.
And they have Justin Pugh playing C. ;)
It's a good point here. Why? Because it shows Murray is a difference maker and helps improve his teammates, and/or covers up deficiencies. That's what real high round investments are supposed to do.
Here at BBI. There is contingent of fans who believe Jones is basically 1/11th of the offense and he will only be as good as the other good-great players around him. So they always have a fallback for his average play - see all of the excuses above. It's always something...
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Had you done this thing called the eye test you would see allen missing his receivers by 5+ yards in every single game, while jones is hitting perfecctly placed passes on tiny windows.
If jones ever played a game like Allen did tonite, or in his playoff game last season you would never hear the end of it.
Yes, Allen gets wild. And Jones throw a prettier ball. But Allen is still completing 69% of his passes. Is that luck now?
And if you truly watch Allen you will see that he's got GREAT escapability, extends a play, and then makes big plays when things break down. It's a bigger, more athletic Roethlisberger.
But keep thinking Jones is doing the same thing...
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Look at the Cardinals, they were 3-13 the year they drafted Kyler and we got Jones. Their roster was as bad as ours, or worse. Did you watch the game last night? They look like a playoff team. How have they jumped so far ahead of us? Is it a coincidence that Kyler is playing great and Jones is playing poorly? Their line in that 3-win season was atrocious. Now suddenly they have a great line and we still can't put one together? The excuses some are making for DJ make no sense to me.
And they have Justin Pugh playing C. ;)
It's a good point here. Why? Because it shows Murray is a difference maker and helps improve his teammates, and/or covers up deficiencies. That's what real high round investments are supposed to do.
Here at BBI. There is contingent of fans who believe Jones is basically 1/11th of the offense and he will only be as good as the other good-great players around him. So they always have a fallback for his average play - see all of the excuses above. It's always something...
Kenyon Drake ran for 164 freaking yards yesterday. He has just 49 less rushing yards by himself than the entire NY Giants team so far in 2020. Kyler Murray was WONDERFUL yesterday, but enough with the nonsense where BBI acts like other QBs around the sport are playing by themselves with absolutely no help. I don’t understand it at all. Christian Kirk tore the Cowboys a new one last night and he’s not even his team’s best receiver. I’m old enough to remember last year’s Giants-Cards game where Murray did very little, but the Cards won because they ran the ball down the Giants throats with a backup.
The QB is definitely more important than the other 10 players on offense. However, when did people get this idea that there’s this group of QBs carrying severely substandard teammates/coaches on their back each week? In the past decade, two guys have done it... Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson. I don’t get this shit at all. Are people trying to be obtuse?
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Look at the Cardinals, they were 3-13 the year they drafted Kyler and we got Jones. Their roster was as bad as ours, or worse. Did you watch the game last night? They look like a playoff team. How have they jumped so far ahead of us? Is it a coincidence that Kyler is playing great and Jones is playing poorly? Their line in that 3-win season was atrocious. Now suddenly they have a great line and we still can't put one together? The excuses some are making for DJ make no sense to me.
And they have Justin Pugh playing C. ;)
It's a good point here. Why? Because it shows Murray is a difference maker and helps improve his teammates, and/or covers up deficiencies. That's what real high round investments are supposed to do.
Here at BBI. There is contingent of fans who believe Jones is basically 1/11th of the offense and he will only be as good as the other good-great players around him. So they always have a fallback for his average play - see all of the excuses above. It's always something...
correct. Except you are wrong in one regard. We are not seeing average QB play from Jones. We are seeing 30th ranked in the NFL play. We are seeing bottom of the league play.
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Look at the Cardinals, they were 3-13 the year they drafted Kyler and we got Jones. Their roster was as bad as ours, or worse. Did you watch the game last night? They look like a playoff team. How have they jumped so far ahead of us? Is it a coincidence that Kyler is playing great and Jones is playing poorly? Their line in that 3-win season was atrocious. Now suddenly they have a great line and we still can't put one together? The excuses some are making for DJ make no sense to me.
And they have Justin Pugh playing C. ;)
It's a good point here. Why? Because it shows Murray is a difference maker and helps improve his teammates, and/or covers up deficiencies. That's what real high round investments are supposed to do.
Here at BBI. There is contingent of fans who believe Jones is basically 1/11th of the offense and he will only be as good as the other good-great players around him. So they always have a fallback for his average play - see all of the excuses above. It's always something...
What is Murray doing exactly to “improve” the talent level of his teammates and their ability to understand the Cardinals offense?
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.,.not the current version of Josh Allen vs Daniel Jones. You've changed the conversation. I never said, nor would I, that Jones is better or comparable to Josh Allen.
It is clear by most objective measures one player is improving, and the other is not. Why else would you compare two players at a point in time unless you are trying to argue they are on similar or different trajectories in their progress?
The original thought was that they’re both mobile quarterbacks, drafted at the same spot and on young teams. Allen last year, go look it up, around this time was being questioned as the guy moving forward. Not by all but certainly by some. As jones is...a d this was in the same system.
Obviously no quarterback is alike. I get that. But looking at Jones and comparing to a pure pocket passer seemed less effective.
Remember how long it took the giants to implement and understand Spags defense? Four regular season games and the preseason? I’m giving Jones till week 12-14. Until then will root for the kid and the entire offense to continue getting better because I believe they can.
What is Murray doing exactly to “improve” the talent level of his teammates and their ability to understand the Cardinals offense?
No idea about the understanding the offense part...
But Murray's movement and arm talent creates more opportunities for his teammates. Which improves the ability for the Cards to convert more first downs, retain possession (which helps their D, too), and, most importantly, score more points.
He's just a special player in this modern NFL who has various dimensions to beat the other team. And those dimensions are all on the plus-level.
The year before Murray arrived the Cards were averaging 14ppg. Last year they average 22.6ppg. This year they are averaging 27.7ppg.
Almost double their output from 2018...
I've supported the Jones pick and still do (he's got 2020 in my book), but he's got opportunities that better players would be executing on.
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What is Murray doing exactly to “improve” the talent level of his teammates and their ability to understand the Cardinals offense?
No idea about the understanding the offense part...
But Murray's movement and arm talent creates more opportunities for his teammates. Which improves the ability for the Cards to convert more first downs, retain possession (which helps their D, too), and, most importantly, score more points.
He's just a special player in this modern NFL who has various dimensions to beat the other team. And those dimensions are all on the plus-level.
The year before Murray arrived the Cards were averaging 14ppg. Last year they average 22.6ppg. This year they are averaging 27.7ppg.
Almost double their output from 2018...
his "arm talent" and "movement" in his second year with the same players, system and coaches. I'm sorry but if you're going to make statements about players elevating those around them you need to show me how that's done. You can't just say it.
Does he audible out of plays at the line of scrimmage? Does he spend time in the film room with his line/receivers beyond what the coaches require? Does he help his center and running back recognize stunts and blitz pickups?
What is he doing to make those around him better?
Clearly Giants receivers are marginal and the O line is godawful which make Jones job damn near impossible. With better support, I think Jones can win in the league, but if for some reason the Giants get a shot at TL, I'd take him.
The idea that either Jones or Allen is better than Eli at this point is simply ludicrous. May either of them eventually be better? Sure, but both being better is unlikely.
Eli's accuracy is one the least appreciated aspects of his game. He ran a deep passing scheme most of his career, so his comp % was never at the top of the league. He read defenses as well as anyone who has played the game, was tougher than most give him credit for, and here is the most important attribute, he made plays in the red zone.
Making the team around you better isn't just an intellectual attribute, its every bit physical in today's NFL. I also have no idea what he is and isn't audibling or how to quantify it. But if that's the benchmark then are you applying that to Wilson, Mahomes, etc?
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What is Murray doing exactly to “improve” the talent level of his teammates and their ability to understand the Cardinals offense?
No idea about the understanding the offense part...
But Murray's movement and arm talent creates more opportunities for his teammates. Which improves the ability for the Cards to convert more first downs, retain possession (which helps their D, too), and, most importantly, score more points.
He's just a special player in this modern NFL who has various dimensions to beat the other team. And those dimensions are all on the plus-level.
The year before Murray arrived the Cards were averaging 14ppg. Last year they average 22.6ppg. This year they are averaging 27.7ppg.
Almost double their output from 2018...
exactly.. Murray is special. He makes plays. There are some deficits to his game that he can improve, that he should improve to emerge as a true multi-year franchise guy, but his ability to run, throw on the run, scares defenses, disrupts them, and helps him break games open even though he is not a finished product.
only some Giants fans think Jones is in the same category as Murray. Everybody else, including QB analysts, know Murray is way ahead of Jones at this juncture.
Remember?
Remember?
well now it is clear for all to see why analysts were more enthused about Murray than Jones after last season. It looks like he is the better player.
his "arm talent" and "movement" in his second year with the same players, system and coaches. I'm sorry but if you're going to make statements about players elevating those around them you need to show me how that's done. You can't just say it.
Does he audible out of plays at the line of scrimmage? Does he spend time in the film room with his line/receivers beyond what the coaches require? Does he help his center and running back recognize stunts and blitz pickups?
What is he doing to make those around him better?
I can't answer those questions. That's for his coaches/teammates. But whatever Murray is doing has led to an almost a doubling in PPG from two years ago. And the Cards are 4-2.
Some common sense question to consider here...
Is it easier to get open when the QB buys more time?
Is it easier to play offense when the QB is a threat to throw and run at a high level?
Is it easier to make plays when the QB can can make quality throws in the pocket or on the run?
Murray does all that. So just applying those attributes it seems safe to conclude Murray is having a huge, positive ripple effect on the team...No?
I've seen Garrett utilize Jones' legs more and more each week. I think this is an example of the coaches figuring out how best to utilize his skill set.
Nobody is comparing Murray to Jones because you can't. Murray is in year two of his offense with DeAndre Hopkins as his WR1. It matters.
Look...I was trying to shed some light on where other quarterbacks were after 19 starts compared to Jones. He's "regressed" this year but I can't rule out new system/coach factor yet.
Can you find an example of a second year quarterback who's excelled in a new system in year two with no preseason?
If you're dead set on saying he sucks than it is what it is. There have been a lot of quarterbacks in this league that took years to get comfortable. Seems like this board is full of people who go out of their way to highlight the negative.
Nobody is comparing Murray to Jones because you can't. Murray is in year two of his offense with DeAndre Hopkins as his WR1. It matters.
It doesn’t matter on BBI. There’s no difference between a past his prime Larry Fitzgerald as the #1 receiver and DeAndre Hopkins. Pointing out that players are dealing with different levels of coaching, running games, receiver talent, and offensive linemen is apparently just an excuse and not stating the obvious.
This is how Giants fans are - especially with QB’s. They are quick to make judgements and have zero patience for player development.
Jones has shown he has talent and and he is tough and competitive. He also has shown a propensity for turnovers, but we need to remember he is only a few games into year 2 and playing in a new offense with no preseason and very little talent around him. Let’s see how he develops throughout the season.