I thought this was a fair comparison. Drafted 7th Overall as the highest player ever taken from the University of Wyoming. Started early into his rookie season after Nathan Peterman started poorly. This is how they compare through each players first 19 starts.
J. Allen D. Jones
1167.....Snaps Taken.....1185
543...Passing Attempts...660
74.5%.....QB Rating......82.6%
55.4%....Completion %....61.6%
19.....Interceptions.....18
16........Fumbles........22
50......Sacks Taken......55
19......Passing Tds......27
11......Rushing Tds.......2
I tried to be as transparent as possible.
Jones fumbled 3.2% of his attempts and Allen 2.8%.
One major difference, which we all know, is that Jones has had to learn a new system under the NFL's covid restrictions.
Giving up on him at this point isn't warranted in my opinion. Isn't it more enjoyable to root for the kid to be the Giant's version of Josh Allen?
1167.....Snaps Taken.....1185
543...Passing Attempts...660
74.5%.....QB Rating......82.6%
55.4%....Completion %....61.6%
19.....Interceptions.....18
16........Fumbles........22
50......Sacks Taken......55
19......Passing Tds......27
11......Rushing Tds.......2
Had you done so, you would have seen Allen making plays, especially with his legs the second half of 2108 where he actually led the league in rushing the last six games of the year. And he was making some unbelievable throws despite a receiving corp that included Zay Jones and Robert Foster.
In other words, Allen should he had force multiplier capabilities. Jones has none of that so far...unfortunately.
BUF OL is MUCH better than the Giants (today).
Allen is a far better athlete. Much better arm talent. Much better runner. And as a runner Allen attacks the D.
Jones is a good runner in the open field. Maybe better accuracy. Jones looks short to mid while Allen is a deep ball thrower.
Had you done so, you would have seen Allen making plays, especially with his legs the second half of 2108 where he actually led the league in rushing the last six games of the year. And he was making some unbelievable throws despite a receiving corp that included Zay Jones and Robert Foster.
In other words, Allen should he had force multiplier capabilities. Jones has none of that so far...unfortunately.
Sounds like you dont either. Allen consistently misses his guy who is wide open and has much better set of receivers in favor of improvised runs.
Jones has pretty consistently made fantastic bucket and sideline throws even after his blocking fails. He also has shown incredible guts running the ball when he has to. Two years, ywo systems.
Buffalo has fielded a far better team than we've had the past two years and Jones has been above average. The turnovers are a huge problem that can get fixed. But you are a broken record on Jones bw and you always have been. You didnt like him and as a result have rooted against him. Not an unbiased bone in your body.
Allen is a far better athlete. Much better arm talent. Much better runner. And as a runner Allen attacks the D.
Jones is a good runner in the open field. Maybe better accuracy. Jones looks short to mid while Allen is a deep ball thrower.
He has a stronger arm but was heavily criticized for being inaccurate downfield.
I don't know how you come up with better athlete. Allen had to go to a junior college only to get one offer to play in college from University of Wyoming. Not saying he's not a stud just wondering why you don't think Jones is not a good an athlete as him.
Quote:
think these players are that comparable, other than maybe size.
Allen is a far better athlete. Much better arm talent. Much better runner. And as a runner Allen attacks the D.
Jones is a good runner in the open field. Maybe better accuracy. Jones looks short to mid while Allen is a deep ball thrower.
He has a stronger arm but was heavily criticized for being inaccurate downfield.
I don't know how you come up with better athlete. Allen had to go to a junior college only to get one offer to play in college from University of Wyoming. Not saying he's not a stud just wondering why you don't think Jones is not a good an athlete as him.
Allen is athletically a unicorn. He's huge. He's a great runner. Defenders have a hard time taking him down, he's strong as heck. And I have heard stories of Cosell, Aikman, etc etc talking about being on the field when he throws the ball. It's just different when the ball comes out of his hands. His arm talent ranks with some of the best ever. He can throw passes across his body running one way to the other side of the field with unreal zip.
He does have accuracy issues, not so much with the deep ball but with simpler balls. And he's not consistent. Honestly, I am surprised how well he's doing but he's making his unusual skill set work. But I don't know if he can sustain excellence over a long career. I just don;t know. But athletically he is amazing.
For weeks now I've watched back up QBs -- yes including Andy Dalton -- take their team down the field in the last drive of a game and score a winning TD or put them in field goal range. I saw them do it with a big play and throw of over 30 yards. I HAVE YET TO SEE JONES DO THIS. I have seen Kyle Allen do it yesterday with an equally bad roster. I have watched Mullens decimate this defense with 10 back-up players.
I remember Josh Allen in college playing in a Wyoming game. and I don't watch college a lot. He was good even back then. Eli was good at Ol Miss. JONES HAS SHOWN NOTHING EXCEPT THAT HE CAN BE AN NFL WINNING QB.
He was never anything special in college. This season it looks like the coaches are trying o minimize his turnovers and not letting him air it out. Or maybe it is a confidence problem, but he does not look to pass more than like 5 yards. All of the back-ups the Giants played are better than him this year.
For weeks now I've watched back up QBs -- yes including Andy Dalton -- take their team down the field in the last drive of a game and score a winning TD or put them in field goal range. I saw them do it with a big play and throw of over 30 yards. I HAVE YET TO SEE JONES DO THIS. I have seen Kyle Allen do it yesterday with an equally bad roster. I have watched Mullens decimate this defense with 10 back-up players.
I remember Josh Allen in college playing in a Wyoming game. and I don't watch college a lot. He was good even back then. Eli was good at Ol Miss. JONES HAS SHOWN NOTHING EXCEPT THAT HE CAN BE AN NFL WINNING QB.
He was never anything special in college. This season it looks like the coaches are trying o minimize his turnovers and not letting him air it out. Or maybe it is a confidence problem, but he does not look to pass more than like 5 yards. All of the back-ups the Giants played are better than him this year.
sadly, I think this might be all true.. we all hope Danny Boy can RISE ABOVE! See what I did there? ;)
through his first 19 games? No he doesn't. Allen had 3,567 and Jones' has had 4,250.
Quote:
Allen has 2500 more passing yards.
I guess the goole search was wrong. I'll go double check it.
through his first 19 games? No he doesn't. Allen had 3,567 and Jones' has had 4,250.
Quote:
In comment 15015197 smshmth8690 said:
Quote:
Allen has 2500 more passing yards.
I guess the goole search was wrong. I'll go double check it.
through his first 19 games? No he doesn't. Allen had 3,567 and Jones' has had 4,250.
My mistake, bad post.
The front office -likely a revamped one - will need to view his body of work and make a critical decisions in light of the fact that he isn't likely to have top talent around him anytime soon. Personally, I see some good things, but largely cannot see projectable top 10 qb talent.
if a star QB never presents himself to you, sure. But if you see a franchise changing QB in front of you, you take him.
Allen as a starter: 19-15
You sound very raw about being very wrong about a lot of things...
Quote:
prepared to hear some happy horseshit about how Allen elevates his teammates while Jones could easily be replaced by andy Dalton.
You sound very raw about being very wrong about a lot of things...
You might want to watch the Dallas game. It isn't exactly shining a beacon of correctness on the idea that Dalton would be 3-3 with the Giants.
In fact, it sounds fucking moronic.
Quote:
prepared to hear some happy horseshit about how Allen elevates his teammates while Jones could easily be replaced by andy Dalton.
You sound very raw about being very wrong about a lot of things...
Nobody values your input
Quote:
In comment 15015124 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
prepared to hear some happy horseshit about how Allen elevates his teammates while Jones could easily be replaced by andy Dalton.
You sound very raw about being very wrong about a lot of things...
You might want to watch the Dallas game. It isn't exactly shining a beacon of correctness on the idea that Dalton would be 3-3 with the Giants.
In fact, it sounds fucking moronic.
Dalton is a poor man's Kirk Cousins. You're never winning shit with that guy.
Sounds like you dont either. Allen consistently misses his guy who is wide open and has much better set of receivers in favor of improvised runs.
Jones has pretty consistently made fantastic bucket and sideline throws even after his blocking fails. He also has shown incredible guts running the ball when he has to. Two years, ywo systems.
Buffalo has fielded a far better team than we've had the past two years and Jones has been above average. The turnovers are a huge problem that can get fixed. But you are a broken record on Jones bw and you always have been. You didnt like him and as a result have rooted against him. Not an unbiased bone in your body.
Allen is completing 69% of his passes now that he finally has dependable receivers with a 83+ YTD QBR. And he's one of the best improv/running QBs in the NFL. He's a legit play-maker with more plus-plus skills than Jones.
I didn't like the Jones pick because where he was drafted. He was over-drafted. And I don't root against him.
But he's morphing into another Giants QB who needs this huge infrastructure to succeed. And that's not what a #6 pick should require. He should be the one doing the elevating, not the one who needs to be elevated.
Quote:
Sounds like you dont either. Allen consistently misses his guy who is wide open and has much better set of receivers in favor of improvised runs.
Jones has pretty consistently made fantastic bucket and sideline throws even after his blocking fails. He also has shown incredible guts running the ball when he has to. Two years, ywo systems.
Buffalo has fielded a far better team than we've had the past two years and Jones has been above average. The turnovers are a huge problem that can get fixed. But you are a broken record on Jones bw and you always have been. You didnt like him and as a result have rooted against him. Not an unbiased bone in your body.
Allen is completing 69% of his passes now that he finally has dependable receivers with a 83+ YTD QBR. And he's one of the best improv/running QBs in the NFL. He's a legit play-maker with more plus-plus skills than Jones.
I didn't like the Jones pick because where he was drafted. He was over-drafted. And I don't root against him.
But he's morphing into another Giants QB who needs this huge infrastructure to succeed. And that's not what a #6 pick should require. He should be the one doing the elevating, not the one who needs to be elevated.
Allen is certainly productive this season but many of the mechanical problems and deficits remain. Can a QB with bad footwork, dodgy mechanics, who botches easy passes really succeed at an elite level in the NFL? I guess we are going to find out, b ut make no mistake, many of the problems are still there. He is playing well in spite of these defects.
Of course, the guys who “hate” DJ and blame him for all our woes won’t be interested and probably won’t even spend a minute or two to ponder the numbers.
You guys probably should convert to Jets fans since you want Trevor Lawrence so badly. The chances of you getting him is far far greater as a Jet than a Giant. You see, our boys are still playing hard and improving, even if in small bits. And we fans, who understand football, and understand DJ and the entire team are having to learn a new system without any preseason....well, let’s just say, we are much more patient and willing to watch, observe, and then process before we speak.... we still need much more data and facts to process before we can draw our conclusions.
I hear they do have pretty good meds for people with impulsive disorders.
Clearly Giants receivers are marginal and the O line is godawful which make Jones job damn near impossible. With better support, I think Jones can win in the league, but if for some reason the Giants get a shot at TL, I'd take him.
Clearly Giants receivers are marginal and the O line is godawful which make Jones job damn near impossible. With better support, I think Jones can win in the league, but if for some reason the Giants get a shot at TL, I'd take him.
i generally like your thoughts but no way is Jones better than Eli. In his prime Eli was unflappable, had a better gun than Jones, let it loose downfield, was a great decision maker and threw daggers with great anticipation. When Eli declined he lost it all but for six or seven seasons Eli was really good and he was unconscious during the two super bowl runs.
I'd add Allen had 148 more yards rushing in his first 12 starts than Jones does in 18. Maybe the fault of coaching more than anything, but that seems to be a huge difference.
[quote] prepared to hear some happy horseshit about how Allen elevates his teammates while Jones could easily be replaced by andy Dalton. [/quot
if you want to pretend that Josh Allen and Daniel Jones are similar caliber players thats your prerogative. But you were also the captain of the "build behind Eli" disaster for 3-4 years.
[quote] prepared to hear some happy horseshit about how Allen elevates his teammates while Jones could easily be replaced by andy Dalton. [/quot
if you want to pretend that Josh Allen and Daniel Jones are similar caliber players thats your prerogative. But you were also the captain of the "build behind Eli" disaster for 3-4 years.
That's interesting since I thought he should have been gone in 2018. Once he was benched for Geno Smith, his time here should have ended.
But I guess I was the Captain. Right, Ace?
Do you think Jones would do as good of a job dealing with the fierce New Jersey winds at night as Eli did?
Clearly Giants receivers are marginal and the O line is godawful which make Jones job damn near impossible. With better support, I think Jones can win in the league, but if for some reason the Giants get a shot at TL, I'd take him.
What does Eli have to do with anything? And quicker release? For decades, in football talk a "quick release" always meant the seconds a qb throws the ball after getting the snap. Eli's was 2/10ths of a second faster than the average in the last game he played and was something like 2.8 seconds. And we are comparing a QB who retired at nearly 40 years old. wtf?
Is that all people see is a mobile QB? I have news for you that jones sucks at running and throwing. he pretty much sucks at throwing in general esp under any pressure whether blitzes or crunch time. But running out of the pocket for the sideline, and trying to throw a half step before running out of bounds instead of just 3 steps out of the pocket and firing ; is a low percentage throw. And one he always tries to make when running and throwing
Quote:
prime years. The O line could block, Jacobs and Bradshaw were terrific, and the receivers were fast, ran precise routes, and could get separation. Bradshaw was quick and elusive and Jacobs barreled over the opposition. He holds the Giants record for career TD's. The defensive line was lights out and while the LBs were only okay, the defensive backfield was smart, fast, and could defend. I grant you that Eli could read the field better, but in time Jones should learn this as well. Too bad we can't see what Jones might have done on those teams.
Do you think Jones would do as good of a job dealing with the fierce New Jersey winds at night as Eli did?
Did you actually see Eli those first couple of years? Hell, he struggled with the wind in the playoff game versus the Eagles in 2009.
Now, he's struggled the last two weeks (versus good teams).
But Allen has the better arm, and is bigger, stronger, and faster in terms of how he runs and avoids the rush.
I like DJ and am rooting for him, but DJ shouldn't have even been remotely a pick for the NYG in 2019.
The Giants should have taken Josh Allen over Barkley.
Had you done so, you would have seen Allen making plays, especially with his legs the second half of 2108 where he actually led the league in rushing the last six games of the year. And he was making some unbelievable throws despite a receiving corp that included Zay Jones and Robert Foster.
In other words, Allen should he had force multiplier capabilities. Jones has none of that so far...unfortunately.
Had you done this thing called the eye test you would see allen missing his receivers by 5+ yards in every single game, while jones is hitting perfecctly placed passes on tiny windows.
If jones ever played a game like Allen did tonite, or in his playoff game last season you would never hear the end of it.
Had you done this thing called the eye test you would see allen missing his receivers by 5+ yards in every single game, while jones is hitting perfecctly placed passes on tiny windows.
If jones ever played a game like Allen did tonite, or in his playoff game last season you would never hear the end of it.
Yes, Allen gets wild. And Jones throw a prettier ball. But Allen is still completing 69% of his passes. Is that luck now?
And if you truly watch Allen you will see that he's got GREAT escapability, extends a play, and then makes big plays when things break down. It's a bigger, more athletic Roethlisberger.
But keep thinking Jones is doing the same thing...
Quote:
Had you done this thing called the eye test you would see allen missing his receivers by 5+ yards in every single game, while jones is hitting perfecctly placed passes on tiny windows.
If jones ever played a game like Allen did tonite, or in his playoff game last season you would never hear the end of it.
Yes, Allen gets wild. And Jones throw a prettier ball. But Allen is still completing 69% of his passes. Is that luck now?
And if you truly watch Allen you will see that he's got GREAT escapability, extends a play, and then makes big plays when things break down. It's a bigger, more athletic Roethlisberger.
But keep thinking Jones is doing the same thing...
Im not saying its luck but he tossed the ball like shit tonight thats for sure. He missed a TON of wide open throws that wouldve kept drives alive. Wide open.
Allen's inconsistency with ball placement accuracy is absolutely maddening. I mostly agree with Producer's post above about the plethora of problems Allen has mechanically. Yeah he's a great raw physical talent, so what? Comparing him to Big Ben is a ridiculous joke of a take! The obvious predecessor and "model" to compare Josh Allen to is Cam Newton.
Who has exactly how many SB rings? Zero.
Will Allen ever get the mental side of the game to be an ultimate winner? That's a very serious question for both Allen and Jones.
Eli won 2 rings for the Giants' franchise based primarily on 3 things: brains, toughness, and the uncanny ability to rise to the moment, which at least partly was based on his possession of the first two SB Winner traits I mentioned. Add "unflappability", cool as the other side of the pillow.
Neither Josh Allen nor Daniel Jones has shown that yet, although its still early for both of them.
Forget Allen's physical attributes. They're nice, but if you compare Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Joe Montana and Tom Brady, none of them have anything close to the Cam Newton like physical profile Allen has, and it simply doesn't matter.
Other positive traits are FAR more important.
Quote:
He has a quicker release, throws a tighter spiral, and his velocity is the equal of Manning's. And he's clearly more mobile and can throw more accurately on the run. That said, I rate Allen higher than Jones. Stronger arm, quicker release, even more mobile, and harder to bring down. While Allen at times misses his target, he's more accurate on the run than Jones. And as a runner, he's faster and harder to bring down. Allen is also clearly the leader on the team and from what I read, is not afraid to talk trash to the opposition on the playing field. I wanted the Giants to draft Allen and was disappointed when DG opted for the running back. I'm delighted that the Jets also passed on Allen and took Darnold, but I fear that soon the Jets will dump Darnold and draft TL.
Clearly Giants receivers are marginal and the O line is godawful which make Jones job damn near impossible. With better support, I think Jones can win in the league, but if for some reason the Giants get a shot at TL, I'd take him.
What does Eli have to do with anything? And quicker release? For decades, in football talk a "quick release" always meant the seconds a qb throws the ball after getting the snap. Eli's was 2/10ths of a second faster than the average in the last game he played and was something like 2.8 seconds. And we are comparing a QB who retired at nearly 40 years old. wtf?
Is that all people see is a mobile QB? I have news for you that jones sucks at running and throwing. he pretty much sucks at throwing in general esp under any pressure whether blitzes or crunch time. But running out of the pocket for the sideline, and trying to throw a half step before running out of bounds instead of just 3 steps out of the pocket and firing ; is a low percentage throw. And one he always tries to make when running and throwing
"quick release" has nothing to do with "time to throw". You are embarassing yourself. Mahomes has one of the quickest releases in the league and is dead last in time to throw.
Had you done so, you would have seen Allen making plays, especially with his legs the second half of 2108 where he actually led the league in rushing the last six games of the year. And he was making some unbelievable throws despite a receiving corp that included Zay Jones and Robert Foster.
In other words, Allen should he had force multiplier capabilities. Jones has none of that so far...unfortunately.
and during this so called "eye test" did you happen to see cole beasley and john brown or you somehow missed those guys? Now he has Diggs, Brown, Beasley and gabriel Davis. Josh Allen was my guy in that draft i loved him i was on this board praising allen. Lets give jones a team around him before we say what he isnt doing. And if you actually watch the games you will see how many plays jones makes per week eluding rushers and moving the chains. His ability to extend plays with his legs and also keeping his eyes downfield and taking shots is the only reason we have been in these games each week.
Quote:
In comment 15015316 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
He has a quicker release, throws a tighter spiral, and his velocity is the equal of Manning's. And he's clearly more mobile and can throw more accurately on the run. That said, I rate Allen higher than Jones. Stronger arm, quicker release, even more mobile, and harder to bring down. While Allen at times misses his target, he's more accurate on the run than Jones. And as a runner, he's faster and harder to bring down. Allen is also clearly the leader on the team and from what I read, is not afraid to talk trash to the opposition on the playing field. I wanted the Giants to draft Allen and was disappointed when DG opted for the running back. I'm delighted that the Jets also passed on Allen and took Darnold, but I fear that soon the Jets will dump Darnold and draft TL.
Clearly Giants receivers are marginal and the O line is godawful which make Jones job damn near impossible. With better support, I think Jones can win in the league, but if for some reason the Giants get a shot at TL, I'd take him.
What does Eli have to do with anything? And quicker release? For decades, in football talk a "quick release" always meant the seconds a qb throws the ball after getting the snap. Eli's was 2/10ths of a second faster than the average in the last game he played and was something like 2.8 seconds. And we are comparing a QB who retired at nearly 40 years old. wtf?
Is that all people see is a mobile QB? I have news for you that jones sucks at running and throwing. he pretty much sucks at throwing in general esp under any pressure whether blitzes or crunch time. But running out of the pocket for the sideline, and trying to throw a half step before running out of bounds instead of just 3 steps out of the pocket and firing ; is a low percentage throw. And one he always tries to make when running and throwing
"quick release" has nothing to do with "time to throw". You are embarassing yourself. Mahomes has one of thue quickest releases in the league and is dead last in time to throw.
ah yes it does. You are the one embarrassing yourself. I guess I insulted your llitlle hero. This guy is terrible. Back-up QBs WITH EQUALLY SHITTY TEAMS PLAY BETTER. PLAY CONFIDENT, THROW THE BALL DOWN FIELD. HAVE WORSE DEFENSES THAN OURS LIKE DALLAS AND DATON STILL DID IT
Link - ( New Window )
Clearly Giants receivers are marginal and the O line is godawful which make Jones job damn near impossible. With better support, I think Jones can win in the league, but if for some reason the Giants get a shot at TL, I'd take him.
Eli was special. He had that "It factor" that made him a super clutch player. So far Jones has not shown that. He has had 3 games so far this season (yes a small sample) in which he had a chance to mount a last minute drive to win or at least sent the game into OT. He came up small each time.