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GBN: Studs and Duds from Giants first win of the year

M.S. : 10/20/2020 7:59 am
Another fine thought-piece from GBN Draft Report, Colin Lindsay.

One line in particular caught my eye: "Nothing more frustrating than watching the Giants defense give up conversion after conversion..."

And why all the third down conversions? Mr. Lindsay points a finger at our Defensive Coordinator, Patrick Graham.

I don't. The real reason is that we have zero legitimate pass rushers. Zero. That would explain Kyle Allen's gaudy 74% completion rate.

And to think we could once trot out Justin Tuck, Michael Strahan, Osi Umenyiora, Mathias Kiwanuka, and a little later on Jason-Pierre Paul.

Link - ( New Window )
its definitely frustrating and something to look for  
Dinger : 10/20/2020 8:21 am : link
in terms of improvement this season. I agree we absolutley need to pressure the QB more and maybe Fackrell is the guy or maybe Golden gets it going. I think Graham has to prove his worth by working with what he's got and get SOME kind of pressure. But it also comes down to our 2nd CB and lack of a decent Safety. I think we have a lot of nickel and dime CB's but we need a solid #2 and a safety whose big enough and fast enough to cover a TE or Amari Cooper.;)
Lack of DBs Too  
Jeffrey : 10/20/2020 8:21 am : link
Whatever the reason--lack of pass rushers or lack of DBs the myth that the Giants' defense is decent continues. Truth be told the defense has played a rusty Big Ben in his first game in almost a year and with no preseason, a backup in Chicago, SF, Dallas and Washington and Goff, an overrated system QB in LA. Yet, this team cannot stop 3rd down conversions. The DL is inconsistent at best, giving up large chunks on the ground at the worst times and the DBs with two exceptions cannot cover. Weird but the Giants may be be most improved at LB, their longstanding weakness. Not certain you can place the blame on Graham, but maybe they should blitz more as GBN suggests.It's high risk but may be worth it against inexperienced or backup QBs.
Didn’t Allen throw like half his passes to RBs?  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/20/2020 8:26 am : link
Explains the completion percentage.
I ageee with the whole article and I would add  
jvm52106 : 10/20/2020 8:28 am : link
these items:

1- I think the Giants offense played its best early with Peart at LT. I would love to see Thomas on the right side and kick Flemming to backup status.

2- The Giants need to be more consistent in offensive attack mentality. In the 4th quarter we once again switched to a passing only attack when the game was tied. No reason to do that. We worked best when we threatened the run but that goes away once Lewis is on the field. We did the same thing against Dallas the week before. We are not good enough to go to this package as our receivers are below average, Oline is average (at best) and Lewis is a shell of his past self. Stay with your grouping that provides most versatility in attack options.

3- I struggle to understand why we back off attacking on defense. When Dalton came in last week we should have blitzed their beat up oline and gone after the less mobile QB. This past week, we again called off the dogs.. Need to stop doing that..
Hard for me to comment when I missed  
section125 : 10/20/2020 8:30 am : link
the game after the 1st FG because of a family obligation. I think Colin may be right of Patrick Graham a little. He is noticeably bad on the 1st drives of the game. It is almost like he doesn't scheme correctly early. After that the defense looks sharper and most definitely after the half. And while he often rushes 3 on 3rd and long, M.S. I agree lack of a rush gives the QB too much time. He just needs to blitz more and from different places. Obviously there is limited talent and losing Carter really did hurt the rush. Graham is an upgrade from the last few DCs.
It would help the defense a lot if the offense could stay on the field a little more to give the Defense a breather.
They just kept moving the sticks......  
Simms11 : 10/20/2020 8:37 am : link
We’re lucky that we won that game too. They had the ball 7 more minutes then us and like 26 more plays! I saw a lot of zone break downs, crossing patterns and slants being converted away from defenders. As good as the Defense has been at times, they are still not good on third downs. In fact they are the worst in the league at allowing conversions. Pass rush would help, but coverage on third downs has also been abysmal. Holmes went out, IIRC and so the slot was covered by Ryan and Love at Safety. Love is very slow to react and gets to the play too late. I do not like Zone on shorter yardage 3rd Downs. Have to press and stick to the man so as not to allow those short conversions. It’s ok on the longer 3rd Downs where you can keep the receiver in front of you before the sticks. Anyway, IMO, think it’s currently a combination of scheme, talent and fundamentals, that are causing this. What amazes me is that we’re pretty good in most other Defensive categories.
It's a strategy  
mittenedman : 10/20/2020 8:43 am : link
If you watch the Giants over the years, one thing becomes clear: they have an organizational game strategy that doesn't change much regardless of who the coaches are, and what their backgrounds are before they got here.

The Giants seem to like dropping into zones and keeping everything in front of them on 3rd downs with a pocket-contain rush - not exactly a novel concept but a game strategy they've stuck with for several years. They are not blitz-happy. The one time they noticeably deviated from that was the 1st time Spags was here. (His 2nd stint here was lots of soft zone.)

In Graham's case, he knows he doesn't have any NFL quality Edge Rushers. So his best chance is dropping 8 into coverage, forcing a throw into a tighter window and flying to the ball for a quick tackle. "Arrows through snow" as Spags used to say.
RE: They just kept moving the sticks......  
mittenedman : 10/20/2020 8:45 am : link
In comment 15015472 Simms11 said:
Quote:
We’re lucky that we won that game too. They had the ball 7 more minutes then us and like 26 more plays! I saw a lot of zone break downs, crossing patterns and slants being converted away from defenders. As good as the Defense has been at times, they are still not good on third downs. In fact they are the worst in the league at allowing conversions. Pass rush would help, but coverage on third downs has also been abysmal. Holmes went out, IIRC and so the slot was covered by Ryan and Love at Safety. Love is very slow to react and gets to the play too late. I do not like Zone on shorter yardage 3rd Downs. Have to press and stick to the man so as not to allow those short conversions. It’s ok on the longer 3rd Downs where you can keep the receiver in front of you before the sticks. Anyway, IMO, think it’s currently a combination of scheme, talent and fundamentals, that are causing this. What amazes me is that we’re pretty good in most other Defensive categories.


Simms they weren't doing anything with the ball and all those plays though. Sure, it tires out the D a little bit, but you have to score to win. Most D's will gladly let you go horizontally down the field 3 yards at a time.
RE: Lack of DBs Too  
aGiantGuy : 10/20/2020 8:46 am : link
In comment 15015458 Jeffrey said:
Quote:
Whatever the reason--lack of pass rushers or lack of DBs the myth that the Giants' defense is decent continues. Truth be told the defense has played a rusty Big Ben in his first game in almost a year and with no preseason, a backup in Chicago, SF, Dallas and Washington and Goff, an overrated system QB in LA. Yet, this team cannot stop 3rd down conversions. The DL is inconsistent at best, giving up large chunks on the ground at the worst times and the DBs with two exceptions cannot cover. Weird but the Giants may be be most improved at LB, their longstanding weakness. Not certain you can place the blame on Graham, but maybe they should blitz more as GBN suggests.It's high risk but may be worth it against inexperienced or backup QBs.


There are a legit 7-8 qb’s in the NFL right now, who are not middling or mediocre. This is a 32 team league, you cannot invalidate this defense because they don’t play those guys every week. There will be 14 teams in the playoffs.

Dak was also one of those guys and he damn sure wasn’t embarrassing us.

I agree with your other points, 3rd down conversions are about pass rush and making plays on the ball. Bradberry is the only guy back there who can play the ball. And LWill is our best pass rusher. All we can do at this point is try to force 3rd and long.
the run D  
uther99 : 10/20/2020 8:52 am : link
has been good, but on 3rd downs they rush 3 and the QB eventually finds someone open. As soon as I see a 3 man rush, I assume it's gonna be a first down. Not sure why Graham doesn't blitz
looked to me like the DBs were mostly in zone, and  
Del Shofner : 10/20/2020 8:55 am : link
that they still don't completely understand their responsibilities when in zone - or don't have the quick reflexes needed to quickly get to a man in that DB's zone. I thought Love was particularly slow in this regard.
What ever happened to the offensive plays we saw in the first half of  
Blue21 : 10/20/2020 8:58 am : link
of the Dallas games. They weren't trick plays but they did a little of everything and kept the Dallas D guessing. Most imagination I've seen in years. Since then back to the ole' same thing. Why?
RE: RE: They just kept moving the sticks......  
Simms11 : 10/20/2020 9:00 am : link
In comment 15015476 mittenedman said:
Quote:
In comment 15015472 Simms11 said:


Quote:


We’re lucky that we won that game too. They had the ball 7 more minutes then us and like 26 more plays! I saw a lot of zone break downs, crossing patterns and slants being converted away from defenders. As good as the Defense has been at times, they are still not good on third downs. In fact they are the worst in the league at allowing conversions. Pass rush would help, but coverage on third downs has also been abysmal. Holmes went out, IIRC and so the slot was covered by Ryan and Love at Safety. Love is very slow to react and gets to the play too late. I do not like Zone on shorter yardage 3rd Downs. Have to press and stick to the man so as not to allow those short conversions. It’s ok on the longer 3rd Downs where you can keep the receiver in front of you before the sticks. Anyway, IMO, think it’s currently a combination of scheme, talent and fundamentals, that are causing this. What amazes me is that we’re pretty good in most other Defensive categories.



Simms they weren't doing anything with the ball and all those plays though. Sure, it tires out the D a little bit, but you have to score to win. Most D's will gladly let you go horizontally down the field 3 yards at a time.


Understand, but when you’re D is giving up 3rd down conversions at an alarming rate, it leaves no time for your inept offense to make those long drives to score. It reduces their opportunities to drive the field with less time available. Defense has to do much better getting off the field on 3rd Downs. I think the WFT punted once the whole game!
We all know they don't have a good Pass Rush  
LBH15 : 10/20/2020 9:16 am : link
but that doesn't mean they cannot rush the passer better than they have been. Third down conversion rate by opposing QBs are killing this improved Defense.

They absolutely don't work as a unit on the DLine. And too often just try to just push thru an OL with brute strength versus bypass him to the QB with better hand/feet coordination and quicker first step. Also the D-Coord is going to have to free up somebody from playing zone on third down and allow that LB, S or whomever to come after a scrambling QB and at least pressure the throw somewhat. Its not like our guys are knocking down too many passes in zone anyway.

Wentz is a slippery pain-in-the-ass so they are going to have to mix things up for him, and force him into errors which he has shown to be making this year at a good clip.
RE: It's a strategy  
crick n NC : 10/20/2020 9:21 am : link
In comment 15015475 mittenedman said:
Quote:
If you watch the Giants over the years, one thing becomes clear: they have an organizational game strategy that doesn't change much regardless of who the coaches are, and what their backgrounds are before they got here.



Pardon me please if I am misunderstanding. Are you suggesting the Giants ownership tells coaches how to call their defense?
LBH15....NFL has gone away from the zone blitz because of all the  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/20/2020 9:24 am : link
Spread sets any QB worth their salt will make them pay. Of course we are so bad it would probably be worth it to throw in their on 2nd and 3rd down occasionally
RE: LBH15....NFL has gone away from the zone blitz because of all the  
crick n NC : 10/20/2020 9:34 am : link
In comment 15015529 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
Spread sets any QB worth their salt will make them pay. Of course we are so bad it would probably be worth it to throw in their on 2nd and 3rd down occasionally


If you do not mind, would you explain why you believe this to be the case?
The D is frustrating to watch  
RobCrossRiver56 : 10/20/2020 10:02 am : link
When Washington got the ball with like 4 min left and started driving was there anyone out there in TV land that didn't think they were going to score? Granted we did get the fumble for a TD but Washington then went right down the field again and did score. I was happy for the win but that kind of took the fun out of it for me.
Given the outcome, I'll GUESS a benign cause:  
KeoweeFan : 10/20/2020 10:35 am : link
Joe and staff are fully committed to using this season for evaluation and teaching at the expense of won/loss record.
- part of that on O and D is to stay with purely vanilla game plans. (Throw in a trick play occasionally to keep it fun)
- movement of multiskilled players across positions to find the best fit and combinations
- getting UDFs on the field earlier than many teams would
- "if you're dressed, you're gonna play" (like I did with my Little League teams)
- churn on the PS

Hey, that was the best I could come up with!
RE: The D is frustrating to watch  
jeffusedtobeonwebtv : 10/20/2020 10:45 am : link
In comment 15015577 RobCrossRiver56 said:
Quote:
When Washington got the ball with like 4 min left and started driving was there anyone out there in TV land that didn't think they were going to score? Granted we did get the fumble for a TD but Washington then went right down the field again and did score. I was happy for the win but that kind of took the fun out of it for me.


I would change think they were going to score to know they were going to score. At least they stopped the 2 point conversion. Otherwise we all know they would lose in OT, or at best tie.
RE: RE: LBH15....NFL has gone away from the zone blitz because of all the  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/20/2020 11:10 am : link
In comment 15015540 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 15015529 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


Spread sets any QB worth their salt will make them pay. Of course we are so bad it would probably be worth it to throw in their on 2nd and 3rd down occasionally



If you do not mind, would you explain why you believe this to be the case?


With four viable targets out in the passing game, bringing zone blitzes opens up large holes underneath. QBs with half a brain recognize these right away. Some teams used to drop dline to steal a pick, but you really don't see it anymore.
I will say our defense does an excellent job getting their hands  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/20/2020 11:12 am : link
up and bringing zone blitzes is generally where the QB is going to go with the ball. We've been so bad on 2nd and 3rd down it might be worth a shot.
RE: RE: RE: LBH15....NFL has gone away from the zone blitz because of all the  
crick n NC : 10/20/2020 11:20 am : link
In comment 15015671 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15015540 crick n NC said:


Quote:


In comment 15015529 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


Spread sets any QB worth their salt will make them pay. Of course we are so bad it would probably be worth it to throw in their on 2nd and 3rd down occasionally



If you do not mind, would you explain why you believe this to be the case?



With four viable targets out in the passing game, bringing zone blitzes opens up large holes underneath. QBs with half a brain recognize these right away. Some teams used to drop dline to steal a pick, but you really don't see it anymore.


Thanks for the response
The Blitz works if you use it correctly  
GiantBlue : 10/20/2020 11:21 am : link
I watched the Cardinals blitz very effectively last night to crash into Dalton or hurry his throws.

There was one blitz by their safety where he went in and sacked Dalton unimpeded. Thre were additional sacks and pressures by using blitz's effectively.

The Giants D calls were mystifying against Dalton in that they seemed to be playing a prevent defense on that final drive.

There should be at least four strategic blitz's by Peppers against Wentz Thursday. You have this tiger in the tank athlete....unleash him!!!
RE: The Blitz works if you use it correctly  
crick n NC : 10/20/2020 11:28 am : link
In comment 15015688 GiantBlue said:
Quote:
I watched the Cardinals blitz very effectively last night to crash into Dalton or hurry his throws.

There was one blitz by their safety where he went in and sacked Dalton unimpeded. Thre were additional sacks and pressures by using blitz's effectively.

The Giants D calls were mystifying against Dalton in that they seemed to be playing a prevent defense on that final drive.

There should be at least four strategic blitz's by Peppers against Wentz Thursday. You have this tiger in the tank athlete....unleash him!!!


That has always been the case with the blitz, know when and how to employ it. Zone blitz can still be an effective part of a strategy if used properly and consider the qb and OL you are trying to fool.

Zeke proclaimed the zone blitz isn't used as much because of the presence of the spread, not that it can't still be effective. I am not able to verify by numbers which is why I asked for reasons behind his belief. His reasons seemed reasonable to me
Zeke - I wasn't even referring to zone blitz really.  
LBH15 : 10/20/2020 11:44 am : link
Moreso, that 1-2 of the guys playing zone coverage has to watch his depth and keep eyes on the QB. The deeper he drops the more time the QB will have once he evades our feeble pass rush. If Giants are able to send this guy towards the QB (timely) then his area of the zone will not be vacant very long.

Look, I am just talking here. Fact is they have to try and mix things up because 3rd down is quickly becoming the down I check my texts and emails because I know the drive is continuing. :-)
RE: Zeke - I wasn't even referring to zone blitz really.  
Dinger : 10/20/2020 1:34 pm : link
In comment 15015729 LBH15 said:
Quote:

Look, I am just talking here. Fact is they have to try and mix things up because 3rd down is quickly becoming the down I check my texts and emails because I know the drive is continuing. :-)

\
I lol'd, youre right. They have to do something to get to the QB and I think Graham has been doing that more and more as he figures out what he has. Carter got hurt and he seemed to be someone Graham was using. Now maybe its Fackrell and Logan from the secondary. I think Peppers would be decent there too but maybe too predictable (as in he sucks in coverage so you play him to blitz and throw at him if he drops into coverage.)?
i don't know about Peppers. He runs around out there  
LBH15 : 10/20/2020 2:20 pm : link
sometimes like a chicken with his head cut off. Not disciplined in approach or mind and often leaves his defensive teammates hanging out to dry because of it.
I am confused  
chopperhatch : 10/20/2020 3:16 pm : link
By the lack of blitzing as well. Fackrell has been a pretty good blitzer. Peppers as was mentioned is very good at it too (I think he should be a LBer in fact). We are weak at corner and the secondary in general and we have a weak pass rush. I would rather not have a hole in both areas and at least force a qb into quicker decisions. Also, our LBers arent outstanding in coverage. Might as well send them at the QB.
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