Running backs

I'm a fan of the running back by committee. The recent superbowl era teams were at their best with the Bradshaw/Jacobs/Ward combo.

I also like what the Patriots do. They have a group of role players, and offensive packages designed around each.

no different?? We still haven't gotten D's to respect the run by loading the box like they did for Saquon. We still don't have that 1 or 2 plays a game Saquon would give that were explosive.

Defenses are allowed to play us straight up, settle in a Cover 2, and play single coverage on WR's who can't get separation, even on intermediate routes.

Let's do this one more time and see how we look no different:

Jones with Saquon - 9 games:
21 TD's, 8 INT's
265 yds/game
3 games with rating over 120

Jones without Saquon: - 8 games
5 TDs - 9INT's
217 yds/gm
0 games with rating over 120

We look dramatically different

I was thinking something very similar while watching Sundsay's game. Freeman is more EFFECTIVE than Saquon.

The issues with Saqoun's game have been roundly discussed, but he is still one of, if not THE most talented RB's to ever play the game. He has talent up the yang-yang, he will make unbelievable, eye-popping gaudy plays and role up stats, but the problem is his issues prevent him for having a consistently positive effect on winning games. I.e., doing the dirty work, and doing it at a level commensurate with his size and talent.

In comment 15015656 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

no different?? We still haven't gotten D's to respect the run by loading the box like they did for Saquon. We still don't have that 1 or 2 plays a game Saquon would give that were explosive. Defenses are allowed to play us straight up, settle in a Cover 2, and play single coverage on WR's who can't get separation, even on intermediate routes. Let's do this one more time and see how we look no different: Jones with Saquon - 9 games: 21 TD's, 8 INT's 265 yds/game 3 games with rating over 120 Jones without Saquon: - 8 games 5 TDs - 9INT's 217 yds/gm 0 games with rating over 120 We look dramatically different

Separate the years. This year's offense is vastly different than last year's and Freeman just got up to speed as he had not been playing at all.

notice how our passing game has stunk? Well, you aren't stacking against Freeman, so its pick your poison. Our line is also playing better right now, something that's a factor.

And that was back when passing wasn't as easy before the rule changes.

Totally agree Freeman is better. If you want to win Freeman and Gallman are your backs. If you want showmanship and losing Saquon is your back.

In comment 15015669 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 15015656 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: no different?? We still haven't gotten D's to respect the run by loading the box like they did for Saquon. We still don't have that 1 or 2 plays a game Saquon would give that were explosive. Defenses are allowed to play us straight up, settle in a Cover 2, and play single coverage on WR's who can't get separation, even on intermediate routes. Let's do this one more time and see how we look no different: Jones with Saquon - 9 games: 21 TD's, 8 INT's 265 yds/game 3 games with rating over 120 Jones without Saquon: - 8 games 5 TDs - 9INT's 217 yds/gm 0 games with rating over 120 We look dramatically different Separate the years. This year's offense is vastly different than last year's and Freeman just got up to speed as he had not been playing at all.

Freeman is running against a normal front. In the Steelers game, there were 8 in the box. Not surprisingly, it was also a game that Jones was able to hit Slayton with the longest TD of the season.

In comment 15015678 Black_Flag said:

Quote:

And that was back when passing wasn't as easy before the rule changes. Totally agree Freeman is better. If you want to win Freeman and Gallman are your backs. If you want showmanship and losing Saquon is your back.

Such a stupid take. Barry Sanders hasn't been a Lion the last 2 decades, have they won at any point since he retired?

You don't like Barkley or like the team makeup of having him? Fine, but posts like these are worthless.

In comment 15015656 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

no different?? We still haven't gotten D's to respect the run by loading the box like they did for Saquon. We still don't have that 1 or 2 plays a game Saquon would give that were explosive. Defenses are allowed to play us straight up, settle in a Cover 2, and play single coverage on WR's who can't get separation, even on intermediate routes. Let's do this one more time and see how we look no different: Jones with Saquon - 9 games: 21 TD's, 8 INT's 265 yds/game 3 games with rating over 120 Jones without Saquon: - 8 games 5 TDs - 9INT's 217 yds/gm 0 games with rating over 120 We look dramatically different

dammit. Don't let facts get in the way.

If there ever was one for him to hit

This is now a pass league. has been for a long time. The focal point on offense should not be a running back.

It never worked in the 90s before the rule changes and a better back ie Sanders ; it sure won't work now.

We need a better QB and Freeman and Gallman can get their 100 yards a game like in the Cowboys game. That is all that is required. you can trade Jones and Saquon. Get Lawrence and start to rebuild this team with a shit ton of 3rd round picks after showing resume dave the door.

in the Washington game where I thought to myself Barkley would have had a chance to take those to the house... This is a different offense without Barkley.

was always a solid back. It was a good pick up for that reason. When healthy he has always produced. He is not quite the same as when he was a real force but he hasn't lost that much. I liked the pickup and was chided here when I said the Giants wouldn't lose all that much with him in the lead role if he stayed healthy.

Now this is not to say Freeman is as good as Barkley. He is not. But he's a pro back when healthy. He was once top-5 in the NFL. Maybe now he is top-15/20 if totally sound. Good player.

the great talent here. I keep waiting but the evidence is underwhelming. Serviceable RB’s are a dime a dozen and don’t last long. And agreed you don’t use a premium first round pick on a RB. Especially with the a Giants history in such. (Rocky Thompson anyone?)

In comment 15015696 Black_Flag said:

Quote:

This is now a pass league. has been for a long time. The focal point on offense should not be a running back. It never worked in the 90s before the rule changes and a better back ie Sanders ; it sure won't work now. We need a better QB and Freeman and Gallman can get their 100 yards a game like in the Cowboys game. That is all that is required. you can trade Jones and Saquon. Get Lawrence and start to rebuild this team with a shit ton of 3rd round picks after showing resume dave the door.

Let's trade players that were first round picks for 3rd rounders. We will be great! Then we can draft whoever we draft in the first round this year for a third rounder next year!

Have you applied for the GM job yet?

In comment 15015692 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 15015678 Black_Flag said: Quote: And that was back when passing wasn't as easy before the rule changes. Totally agree Freeman is better. If you want to win Freeman and Gallman are your backs. If you want showmanship and losing Saquon is your back. Such a stupid take. Barry Sanders hasn't been a Lion the last 2 decades, have they won at any point since he retired? You don't like Barkley or like the team makeup of having him? Fine, but posts like these are worthless.

What does the fact that Lions not winning anything since B Sanders retiring, have to do with anything? you don't automatically win by wising up that you are on the wrong course. But it is a start.

Just like when Jones fails year after year, all the Jonsers are going to be like "well if he just had a Tight end to throw too. I mean Brady always had Gronk." Or if he just had a better coach." And on and on. When the thing to do with Jones and barkley is cut bait.

In comment 15015705 KDavies said:

Quote:

In comment 15015696 Black_Flag said: Quote: This is now a pass league. has been for a long time. The focal point on offense should not be a running back. It never worked in the 90s before the rule changes and a better back ie Sanders ; it sure won't work now. We need a better QB and Freeman and Gallman can get their 100 yards a game like in the Cowboys game. That is all that is required. you can trade Jones and Saquon. Get Lawrence and start to rebuild this team with a shit ton of 3rd round picks after showing resume dave the door. Let's trade players that were first round picks for 3rd rounders. We will be great! Then we can draft whoever we draft in the first round this year for a third rounder next year! Have you applied for the GM job yet?

No we draft Trevor Lawrence this year. Jones and Barley never should have been taken that high so we are even on that front.

But I think this directly plays into a "how much are RBs worth" discussion. Saquon didn't have the holes and the OL is playing the run better as they learn by taking their lumps.

That being said, I think Freeman is a tough N/S runner and it is fun to watch him grind out the yards. One thing that is telling is Gallman is still not getting touches - at this point we have to put that on him. Hopefully DF stays injury-free.

In comment 15015711 Black_Flag said:

Quote:

In comment 15015692 UConn4523 said: Quote: In comment 15015678 Black_Flag said: Quote: And that was back when passing wasn't as easy before the rule changes. Totally agree Freeman is better. If you want to win Freeman and Gallman are your backs. If you want showmanship and losing Saquon is your back. Such a stupid take. Barry Sanders hasn't been a Lion the last 2 decades, have they won at any point since he retired? You don't like Barkley or like the team makeup of having him? Fine, but posts like these are worthless. What does the fact that Lions not winning anything since B Sanders retiring, have to do with anything? you don't automatically win by wising up that you are on the wrong course. But it is a start. Just like when Jones fails year after year, all the Jonsers are going to be like "well if he just had a Tight end to throw too. I mean Brady always had Gronk." Or if he just had a better coach." And on and on. When the thing to do with Jones and barkley is cut bait.

hmm.. Jones I agree has to prove he belongs but Barkley? I was not a fan of spending a #2 on Barkley but his talent is undeniable. He is top-3 in terms of talent among RBs in the NFL. Now maybe the move is to trade him to a team that is on the brink if the Giants can get something great but let's be clear, whether it was smart to pick him second or not, Barkley is a stud.

In comment 15015717 Black_Flag said:

Quote:

In comment 15015705 KDavies said: Quote: In comment 15015696 Black_Flag said: Quote: This is now a pass league. has been for a long time. The focal point on offense should not be a running back. It never worked in the 90s before the rule changes and a better back ie Sanders ; it sure won't work now. We need a better QB and Freeman and Gallman can get their 100 yards a game like in the Cowboys game. That is all that is required. you can trade Jones and Saquon. Get Lawrence and start to rebuild this team with a shit ton of 3rd round picks after showing resume dave the door. Let's trade players that were first round picks for 3rd rounders. We will be great! Then we can draft whoever we draft in the first round this year for a third rounder next year! Have you applied for the GM job yet? No we draft Trevor Lawrence this year. Jones and Barley never should have been taken that high so we are even on that front.

How do you get Trevor Lawrence from the Jets if he comes out? Will the Jets be enticed by all those valuable 3rd rounders?

In comment 15015683 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

In comment 15015669 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: In comment 15015656 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: no different?? We still haven't gotten D's to respect the run by loading the box like they did for Saquon. We still don't have that 1 or 2 plays a game Saquon would give that were explosive. Defenses are allowed to play us straight up, settle in a Cover 2, and play single coverage on WR's who can't get separation, even on intermediate routes. Let's do this one more time and see how we look no different: Jones with Saquon - 9 games: 21 TD's, 8 INT's 265 yds/game 3 games with rating over 120 Jones without Saquon: - 8 games 5 TDs - 9INT's 217 yds/gm 0 games with rating over 120 We look dramatically different Separate the years. This year's offense is vastly different than last year's and Freeman just got up to speed as he had not been playing at all. Freeman is running against a normal front. In the Steelers game, there were 8 in the box. Not surprisingly, it was also a game that Jones was able to hit Slayton with the longest TD of the season.

Barkley was 19 for 34 yds this year. I know they stacked the box. I don't care. Watching, it seems to me that Freeman hits the hole faster, he sees and goes. I think that helps a struggling OL.

Here is the deal. I can wait and watch over a number of games. To me, Freeman's running style seems to fit better what Garret is trying to accomplish. I am pulling from a lifetime of watching the sport. If he sees a few yards, he puts his head down and dives at them. It isn't flashy but I like it. Not apologizing for my take.

It is what it is.

to get the #1 pick. But in the meanwhile lets get excited about wins against Washington.

In comment 15015711 Black_Flag said:

Quote:

In comment 15015692 UConn4523 said: Quote: In comment 15015678 Black_Flag said: Quote: And that was back when passing wasn't as easy before the rule changes. Totally agree Freeman is better. If you want to win Freeman and Gallman are your backs. If you want showmanship and losing Saquon is your back. Such a stupid take. Barry Sanders hasn't been a Lion the last 2 decades, have they won at any point since he retired? You don't like Barkley or like the team makeup of having him? Fine, but posts like these are worthless. What does the fact that Lions not winning anything since B Sanders retiring, have to do with anything? you don't automatically win by wising up that you are on the wrong course. But it is a start. Just like when Jones fails year after year, all the Jonsers are going to be like "well if he just had a Tight end to throw too. I mean Brady always had Gronk." Or if he just had a better coach." And on and on. When the thing to do with Jones and barkley is cut bait.

It means Barry Sanders isn't why they didn't win a championship. ITs a miserable franchise and always has been.

No idea what you are talking about in general, you brought him up, not me and my response was to exactly that. You have a really bad habit of making some bold claim, getting called out on it and then asking about the response like its been written in mandarin.

There's a reason why I don't find your name much on non-bitching about the Giants threads. You don't have much to add.

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the fact you don't care is pretty fucking telling:

Quote:

Barkley was 19 for 34 yds this year. I know they stacked the box. I don't care. Watching, it seems to me that Freeman hits the hole faster, he sees and goes. I think that helps a struggling OL.

You don't care that a key strategic move is being employed and has an impact?? If you don't care about that, exactly what worth is it about all the years you've been watching the game? Sounds like you haven't learned shit in that time.

In comment 15015723 Producer said:

Quote:

In comment 15015711 Black_Flag said: Quote: In comment 15015692 UConn4523 said: Quote: In comment 15015678 Black_Flag said: Quote: And that was back when passing wasn't as easy before the rule changes. Totally agree Freeman is better. If you want to win Freeman and Gallman are your backs. If you want showmanship and losing Saquon is your back. Such a stupid take. Barry Sanders hasn't been a Lion the last 2 decades, have they won at any point since he retired? You don't like Barkley or like the team makeup of having him? Fine, but posts like these are worthless. What does the fact that Lions not winning anything since B Sanders retiring, have to do with anything? you don't automatically win by wising up that you are on the wrong course. But it is a start. Just like when Jones fails year after year, all the Jonsers are going to be like "well if he just had a Tight end to throw too. I mean Brady always had Gronk." Or if he just had a better coach." And on and on. When the thing to do with Jones and barkley is cut bait. hmm.. Jones I agree has to prove he belongs but Barkley? I was not a fan of spending a #2 on Barkley but his talent is undeniable. He is top-3 in terms of talent among RBs in the NFL. Now maybe the move is to trade him to a team that is on the brink if the Giants can get something great but let's be clear, whether it was smart to pick him second or not, Barkley is a stud.

No he is not. This not college football when the passing and the tacking sucks so backs can win games for you; including QBs running.

In the NFL there is no style points. You don't control the clock with style runs. 90% of the time is just smashing it up the middle for 5 yards on a first down. Or getting a good run on like a 2nd and 6th when the defense knows you are running late in a game but you run and get a first down anyway by tough physical play. THAT IS NOT BARLKEY'S GAME.

He would make a good slot back or someone you can throw a screen too with misdirection or a toss to the outside. But that is not what starting backs do.

the fact that Freeman looks competent, are conveniently forgetting Barkley's rookie season (with a worse OL than now) and Barkley's 2nd season (with a worse OL than now) where he missed 4 games and still had almost 1500 total yards.

and get the 3 hard yards. It just not what he's being called for a lot of the time. He's a HR hitter, and the more hard 3 yard runs up the middle, they less chances you have at a HR.

An argument can be made for either strategy. Hard to gauge what would be best given the rest of our skill positions and OL woes.

but Barkley is just a better player pre injury. If the OL gave Barkley the same holes, some of those are TDs imo. I have seen Barkley do a better job getting tough yards, I think Barkley would do what they asked him to do. So no, we are not better off with Freeman if both are healthy.

but Barkley is just a better player pre injury. If the OL gave Barkley the same holes, some of those are TDs imo. I have seen Barkley do a better job getting tough yards, I think Barkley would do what they asked him to do. So no, we are not better off with Freeman if both are healthy.

In comment 15015746 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

the fact that Freeman looks competent, are conveniently forgetting Barkley's rookie season (with a worse OL than now) and Barkley's 2nd season (with a worse OL than now) where he missed 4 games and still had almost 1500 total yards.

Agreed. 16th in offense in 2018, 18th in 2019, 31st in 2020. If the 2018 team had this defense we'd be a possible playoff team.

We all watched. He is exciting. He is talented. He is a great human.

He didn't help Eli keep his job.

We haven't won many games with him.

He is out with an injury that may rob him of some of his explosiveness and lead to arthritis(meniscus).

In hindsight, I wish we had done something different. The drop off to running back by committee because of what we have done in the past doesn't seem great enough to justify the 2nd pick anymore to me.

I used believed differently but based on what we have witnessed over his young career, I have changed my mind.

When this year is done, Barkley will have played in 9 games that we won in 3 years. It isn't enough.

In comment 15015734 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 15015711 Black_Flag said: Quote: In comment 15015692 UConn4523 said: Quote: In comment 15015678 Black_Flag said: Quote: And that was back when passing wasn't as easy before the rule changes. Totally agree Freeman is better. If you want to win Freeman and Gallman are your backs. If you want showmanship and losing Saquon is your back. Such a stupid take. Barry Sanders hasn't been a Lion the last 2 decades, have they won at any point since he retired? You don't like Barkley or like the team makeup of having him? Fine, but posts like these are worthless. What does the fact that Lions not winning anything since B Sanders retiring, have to do with anything? you don't automatically win by wising up that you are on the wrong course. But it is a start. Just like when Jones fails year after year, all the Jonsers are going to be like "well if he just had a Tight end to throw too. I mean Brady always had Gronk." Or if he just had a better coach." And on and on. When the thing to do with Jones and barkley is cut bait. It means Barry Sanders isn't why they didn't win a championship. ITs a miserable franchise and always has been. No idea what you are talking about in general, you brought him up, not me and my response was to exactly that. You have a really bad habit of making some bold claim, getting called out on it and then asking about the response like its been written in mandarin. There's a reason why I don't find your name much on non-bitching about the Giants threads. You don't have much to add.

No idea what I am talking about and your response was to exactly that? What?

Go fuck yourself.

so its a really flawed way to look at it. His first 2 years were also under and incompetent coaching staff, would have been nice to see him this year with the new staff.

And Eli didn't keep his job because he wasn't good anymore. 2018 happened, Barkley's 2000 yards and 15 TD's happened - Eli should have played a lot better and he didn't. 21 TD's in 16 games just doesn't cut it, especially with that type of production on the ground.

If Barry Sanders could not win anything I sure don't expect to win anything with a poor man's Barry Sanders.

right back at you chief. Your next good post will be your first.

if you post it more will it eventually be true? Time will tell...

?

In comment 15015744 Black_Flag said:

Quote:

In comment 15015723 Producer said: Quote: In comment 15015711 Black_Flag said: Quote: In comment 15015692 UConn4523 said: Quote: In comment 15015678 Black_Flag said: Quote: And that was back when passing wasn't as easy before the rule changes. Totally agree Freeman is better. If you want to win Freeman and Gallman are your backs. If you want showmanship and losing Saquon is your back. Such a stupid take. Barry Sanders hasn't been a Lion the last 2 decades, have they won at any point since he retired? You don't like Barkley or like the team makeup of having him? Fine, but posts like these are worthless. What does the fact that Lions not winning anything since B Sanders retiring, have to do with anything? you don't automatically win by wising up that you are on the wrong course. But it is a start. Just like when Jones fails year after year, all the Jonsers are going to be like "well if he just had a Tight end to throw too. I mean Brady always had Gronk." Or if he just had a better coach." And on and on. When the thing to do with Jones and barkley is cut bait. hmm.. Jones I agree has to prove he belongs but Barkley? I was not a fan of spending a #2 on Barkley but his talent is undeniable. He is top-3 in terms of talent among RBs in the NFL. Now maybe the move is to trade him to a team that is on the brink if the Giants can get something great but let's be clear, whether it was smart to pick him second or not, Barkley is a stud. No he is not. This not college football when the passing and the tacking sucks so backs can win games for you; including QBs running. In the NFL there is no style points. You don't control the clock with style runs. 90% of the time is just smashing it up the middle for 5 yards on a first down. Or getting a good run on like a 2nd and 6th when the defense knows you are running late in a game but you run and get a first down anyway by tough physical play. THAT IS NOT BARLKEY'S GAME. He would make a good slot back or someone you can throw a screen too with misdirection or a toss to the outside. But that is not what starting backs do.

ok.. i am somewhat with you there. Barkley is just not a great btwn the tackles runner -- yet. Not as good at that as Zeke or Chubb. But he's phenomenal regardless. Great pass catcher. phenomenal speed and ability to cut without losing acceleration. He could and should be coached to hammer the ball better, i agree. or perhaps used as more of a jack knife, in the lost, out wide, in the backfield - heck that might make him even more valuable and extend his career.

In comment 15015767 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

We all watched. He is exciting. He is talented. He is a great human. He didn't help Eli keep his job. We haven't won many games with him. He is out with an injury that may rob him of some of his explosiveness and lead to arthritis(meniscus). In hindsight, I wish we had done something different. The drop off to running back by committee because of what we have done in the past doesn't seem great enough to justify the 2nd pick anymore to me. I used believed differently but based on what we have witnessed over his young career, I have changed my mind. When this year is done, Barkley will have played in 9 games that we won in 3 years. It isn't enough.

The team has been a mess for a while now. How are you able to see through the mess to blame Barkley for lack of wins, and why would you blame one player in a sport that takes a whole unit to function?

We say on one hand that football is the ultimate team sport, then on the other hand assign blame to specific players for lack of wins.

Barkley is very good. I watched his rookie year. It was exciting. Chicken and egg. Barkley should have been the final piece of the rebuild. Not the first. We needed max benefit our of the rookie deal. I say that with the benefit of hindsight.

Sure why rookie deals that have yet to expire and reap damage upon the franchise have already been decided to be a detriment to the future franchise.

In comment 15015793 crick n NC said:

Quote:

In comment 15015767 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: We all watched. He is exciting. He is talented. He is a great human. He didn't help Eli keep his job. We haven't won many games with him. He is out with an injury that may rob him of some of his explosiveness and lead to arthritis(meniscus). In hindsight, I wish we had done something different. The drop off to running back by committee because of what we have done in the past doesn't seem great enough to justify the 2nd pick anymore to me. I used believed differently but based on what we have witnessed over his young career, I have changed my mind. When this year is done, Barkley will have played in 9 games that we won in 3 years. It isn't enough. The team has been a mess for a while now. How are you able to see through the mess to blame Barkley for lack of wins, and why would you blame one player in a sport that takes a whole unit to function? We say on one hand that football is the ultimate team sport, then on the other hand assign blame to specific players for lack of wins.

I don't BLAME him. He played hard, he even played hurt by rushing back from injury.

I am saying that in his first 3 years he didn't make a difference that resulted in enough wins to justify the selection.

We sucked with Barkley in the game.

We sucked without him in the game.

It just is.

In comment 15015800 crick n NC said:

Quote:

Sure why rookie deals that have yet to expire and reap damage upon the franchise have already been decided to be a detriment to the future franchise.

The bigger issue is not getting anything out of the second round pick in the draft.

In comment 15015783 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

right back at you chief. Your next good post will be your first.

I am so glad you're here man to serve as the post police to see if passes muster with your high standards of what is considered a "good" post. I guess we can continue the excuse making and cheerleading for 2 over-drafted win nothings.

In comment 15015802 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 15015793 crick n NC said: Quote: In comment 15015767 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: We all watched. He is exciting. He is talented. He is a great human. He didn't help Eli keep his job. We haven't won many games with him. He is out with an injury that may rob him of some of his explosiveness and lead to arthritis(meniscus). In hindsight, I wish we had done something different. The drop off to running back by committee because of what we have done in the past doesn't seem great enough to justify the 2nd pick anymore to me. I used believed differently but based on what we have witnessed over his young career, I have changed my mind. When this year is done, Barkley will have played in 9 games that we won in 3 years. It isn't enough. The team has been a mess for a while now. How are you able to see through the mess to blame Barkley for lack of wins, and why would you blame one player in a sport that takes a whole unit to function? We say on one hand that football is the ultimate team sport, then on the other hand assign blame to specific players for lack of wins. I don't BLAME him. He played hard, he even played hurt by rushing back from injury. I am saying that in his first 3 years he didn't make a difference that resulted in enough wins to justify the selection. We sucked with Barkley in the game. We sucked without him in the game. It just is.

Well yeah because like I thought I was saying pretty clearly -- running back is not that important a position.

In comment 15015808 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 15015800 crick n NC said: Quote: Sure why rookie deals that have yet to expire and reap damage upon the franchise have already been decided to be a detriment to the future franchise. The bigger issue is not getting anything out of the second round pick in the draft.

We don't agree on that view Terps. I think Barkley has been a fantastic player individually which is how I tend to judge players. Get enough good individual players and you tend to build a good unit.

In comment 15015808 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 15015800 crick n NC said: Quote: Sure why rookie deals that have yet to expire and reap damage upon the franchise have already been decided to be a detriment to the future franchise. The bigger issue is not getting anything out of the second round pick in the draft.

That is a good way of saying it.

What did picking Barkley do for the NY Giants?

What EXACTLY did we get out of it?

With the full benefit of hindsight, it wasn't enough.

I am not going down the subjective road of evaluating every other possible choice.

I don't care.

The second pick in the draft is precious.

him. They were loading the box, determined to take away our biggest threat. The D no longer does that. Now they know that Freeman won't kill them, so they back off and play it more straight up. Saquon never got the holes that Freeman is getting.

I said on the other thread that this year will be good because the OL (and offense) will learn how to win without Barkley, so when he comes back we will be more balanced. This minute the D backs off Barkley will go crazy, like he did as a rookie. When Jones earns the respect of the D they will have to back off, and we will be more balanced.

In comment 15015819 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 15015808 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 15015800 crick n NC said: Quote: Sure why rookie deals that have yet to expire and reap damage upon the franchise have already been decided to be a detriment to the future franchise. The bigger issue is not getting anything out of the second round pick in the draft. That is a good way of saying it. What did picking Barkley do for the NY Giants? What EXACTLY did we get out of it? With the full benefit of hindsight, it wasn't enough. I am not going down the subjective road of evaluating every other possible choice. I don't care. The second pick in the draft is precious.

What positive results would any second pick in the draft yield to the Giants in their state?

With a good deal would be understandable.

In comment 15015817 crick n NC said:

Quote:

In comment 15015808 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 15015800 crick n NC said: Quote: Sure why rookie deals that have yet to expire and reap damage upon the franchise have already been decided to be a detriment to the future franchise. The bigger issue is not getting anything out of the second round pick in the draft. We don't agree on that view Terps. I think Barkley has been a fantastic player individually which is how I tend to judge players. Get enough good individual players and you tend to build a good unit.

Two things on that:

1. I'm not sure Barkley is actually a fantastic player.

2. I come back to what Judge said: "We're not collecting talent, we're building a team."

Investing heavily at running back has been shown repeatedly as a poor way to build a team in the modern era.

had the most cap space allocated to the RB position last season.

In comment 15015826 crick n NC said:

Quote:

In comment 15015819 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: In comment 15015808 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 15015800 crick n NC said: Quote: Sure why rookie deals that have yet to expire and reap damage upon the franchise have already been decided to be a detriment to the future franchise. The bigger issue is not getting anything out of the second round pick in the draft. That is a good way of saying it. What did picking Barkley do for the NY Giants? What EXACTLY did we get out of it? With the full benefit of hindsight, it wasn't enough. I am not going down the subjective road of evaluating every other possible choice. I don't care. The second pick in the draft is precious. What positive results would any second pick in the draft yield to the Giants in their state?

I think OL or ER would have better in that spot with the benefit of hindsight.

Would have been the gold standard.

In comment 15015810 Black_Flag said:

Quote:

In comment 15015783 UConn4523 said: Quote: right back at you chief. Your next good post will be your first. I am so glad you're here man to serve as the post police to see if passes muster with your high standards of what is considered a "good" post. I guess we can continue the excuse making and cheerleading for 2 over-drafted win nothings.

I've been plenty critical, I guess I don't post it 50x per thread for you to notice. You made the ridiculous post in the first place, not me. Don't start deflecting, just own it.

In comment 15015656 FatMan in Charlotte said:
[quote] no different?? We still haven't gotten D's to respect the run by loading the box like they did for Saquon. We still don't have that 1 or 2 plays a game Saquon would give that were explosive.

Defenses are allowed to play us straight up, settle in a Cover 2, and play single coverage on WR's who can't get separation, even on intermediate routes.

Teams loaded the box not only to stop the run but because Barkley couldn’t pass block so teams could send 6 guys on every play so Giants couldn’t run or pass.

In comment 15015836 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

had the most cap space allocated to the RB position last season.

Yup, and that has shown itself to be a big mistake considering Mostert has proven to be better than the rest of the expensive stable.

And besides, the star there is Shanahan.

Want to see something funny? In 2018:

Barkley: 91 receptions, 721 yards, 7.9/catch
Kyle Jusczyk: 30 receptions, 324 yards, 10.8/catch

His description of Freeman is what I am talking about. This discussion isn't new to RBs. I prefer the RB's that get north in a hurry. Seeing a decent one after a few years of Barkley put it right in my face. Can you really be mad at someone for preferring that kind of back, that can be found later in the draft?

In comment 15015833 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 15015817 crick n NC said: Quote: In comment 15015808 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 15015800 crick n NC said: Quote: Sure why rookie deals that have yet to expire and reap damage upon the franchise have already been decided to be a detriment to the future franchise. The bigger issue is not getting anything out of the second round pick in the draft. We don't agree on that view Terps. I think Barkley has been a fantastic player individually which is how I tend to judge players. Get enough good individual players and you tend to build a good unit. Two things on that: 1. I'm not sure Barkley is actually a fantastic player. 2. I come back to what Judge said: "We're not collecting talent, we're building a team." Investing heavily at running back has been shown repeatedly as a poor way to build a team in the modern era.

Terps, I didn't use the word "talented", I used the word "good". Let me explain what I mean by that (non snark). Good in the way I expressed it means good fit for what you want to do as a unot, a player who may be talented, but understands their role, and values team over "me". This player puts in work to understand the scheme and their job and produces on the field in respect to their job.

I also understand the POV that taking a RB in today's NFL isn't a good use of resources. Where I think you and I disconnect is that I don't believe that to be a hard and fast rule and can understand an exception for a player immensely talented. Now, if don't believe Barkley is that player, certainly that is fine and I can respect that.

I would say, judging by your posts you are more likely to look for reasons to abandon a plan to prevent further damage and I understand that and believe there is value there. If I am mistaken on this view, I apologize. I am more likely to look for reasons to stick with a plan to prevent a waste of resources. Each has their value and downsides. Ideally, people with those different views can balance one another if they are willing to accept POV's from a different kind of thinking.

In comment 15015819 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

What EXACTLY did we get out of it?

Marketing and more sales (Saquon merchandise).

In comment 15015860 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15015819 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: What EXACTLY did we get out of it? Marketing and more sales (Saquon merchandise).

True. Sports is a business. I own one, that matters. Not as much as winning but it counts.

Barkley is a talent. He got paid well for being an incredible athlete. He is not a football player. His gaudy stats are meaningless because he does not help us win. His TFL's have killed this offense and his blocking and receiving skills have been a major disappointment. That pick doomed this franchise. He was the generational guy without any flaws that would make a weak OL look better. A more explosive Ezekiel Elliot.

A swing and a miss.

Don't think for a second Mara doesn't see that and how fans come to the game - especially little kids - to see their favorite player/hero Saquon. And Saquon, to his credit, is great at making himself accessible.

Which makes me believe that will be a HUGE reason why Mara re-signs SB. The other revenue streams...

A guy who isn't a "football player" can still rack up gaudy stats?

The hot takes that make zero fucking sense abound here.

In comment 15015877 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

A guy who isn't a "football player" can still rack up gaudy stats? The hot takes that make zero fucking sense abound here.

Barkley is exceptional. Don't include me in that. I just prefer a different style. I think Barkley is the best Creme Brulee. I love Creme Brulee and will go out of my way to get it, if good. I think Barkley would have been a great pick if we had the line fixed. In our position, we needed a really good roast.

In comment 15015840 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 15015810 Black_Flag said: Quote: In comment 15015783 UConn4523 said: Quote: right back at you chief. Your next good post will be your first. I am so glad you're here man to serve as the post police to see if passes muster with your high standards of what is considered a "good" post. I guess we can continue the excuse making and cheerleading for 2 over-drafted win nothings. I've been plenty critical, I guess I don't post it 50x per thread for you to notice. You made the ridiculous post in the first place, not me. Don't start deflecting, just own it.

I did not intend to deflect on anything. I am owning every word of it. Saquan is too much of a pussy to play in the NFL. It really boils down to that.

need anymore evidence that the hot takes here are fucking ludicrous?

I was called a retard in another thread because I'm stupid to realize SB always runs into stacked 8 men boxes for TFLs.

Derrick Henry probably runs into more stacked boxes than any RB, and look at his results.

And yeah, our OL sucks compared to the Titans. But its more of an indictment of DG for drafting a luxury generational rb before fixing the OL.

and you are incapable of having a discussion without displaying it. Congrats, you’re at least consistent.

why the rush to jettison Barkley? Why not use him like the Saints use Kamara for example?

In comment 15015911 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

need anymore evidence that the hot takes here are fucking ludicrous?

Debate the better takes then. Plenty above.

In comment 15015981 LBH15 said:

Quote:

In comment 15015911 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: need anymore evidence that the hot takes here are fucking ludicrous? Debate the better takes then. Plenty above.

Thanks for the advice, Googs. Are you itching that badly to add something that you can't take your own fucking advice?

In comment 15015948 KDavies said:

Quote:

why the rush to jettison Barkley? Why not use him like the Saints use Kamara for example?

Well was kamara a receiving back in college? Backs like e names were drafted to play like that. It would be kind of weird for the best running back in college to reinvent himself now.

Not to mention money. Freeman was only 3mil.

.

In comment 15016006 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

In comment 15015981 LBH15 said: Quote: In comment 15015911 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: need anymore evidence that the hot takes here are fucking ludicrous? Debate the better takes then. Plenty above. Thanks for the advice, Googs. Are you itching that badly to add something that you can't take your own fucking advice?

Not googs as discussed.

But just trying to get you to calm down on some of these threads. Cursing at posters all over the place like a lunatic. Thought you were taking the earlier advice to heart but it didn't last more than a day I guess.

In comment 15015981 LBH15 said:

Quote:

In comment 15015911 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: need anymore evidence that the hot takes here are fucking ludicrous? Debate the better takes then. Plenty above.

Crick and 'thehead' ae doing superb. Its a pleasure to read their posts. The other ones I could do without.

Get the fuck out of here if you don’t like it.

This team HAsnt won a lot of games the last few years and bellichek isn’t calling you for your opinion any tiime soon

In comment 15015911 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

need anymore evidence that the hot takes here are fucking ludicrous?

You have a predisposition to highlight the worst of them. FMiC I don't hate the players, I don't hate Mara. I don't hate DG. I don't bash them every week. I don't look for the bad in things.

What I am, is tired of a shitty product on Sunday. I don't need to blame anyone. I not saying people should be fired today. I'm just done. People here do have some bad takes, not just bad. Small and unnecessarily petty. I have defended the Barkley pick until now because...I like him...as a person. I do think he is a very good player, not an obstacle to winning.

I think he was the wrong position at the wrong time. I also do prefer a RB that gets North South in more of a hurry. The big plays are really exciting. I would like more second and 6 and less 2nd and 10. I don't hate the guy and I don't think DG was a douche for drafting him. I think in hindsight, we should have gone another way in that spot.

In comment 15015948 KDavies said:

Quote:

why the rush to jettison Barkley? Why not use him like the Saints use Kamara for example?

KDavies - agree, and I think a lot of fans are frustrated that Giants are not using SB differently. Shurmur clearly did not. Can't tell yet with Judge but that first Pittsburgh game he had a fair amount of targets.

I doubt anyone outside of the Giants fan base has any respect for Daniel Jones. It was obvious the goat up in New England doesn't. Maybe with Eli the safeties had to respect the play action pass that was able to have Saqwuon play so well in his rookie year. He really did not play well this year.

In comment 15016008 Black_Flag said:

Quote:

In comment 15015948 KDavies said: Quote: why the rush to jettison Barkley? Why not use him like the Saints use Kamara for example? Well was kamara a receiving back in college? Backs like e names were drafted to play like that. It would be kind of weird for the best running back in college to reinvent himself now. Not to mention money. Freeman was only 3mil.

Barkley had 54 receptions his junior year in college. Kamara had 40. Kamara runs the ball and is a capable receiver, as is Barkley.

You missed the point entirely. Saints have always had a more straight ahead runner to complement Kamara, whether it be Ingram or now Murray. Giants have failed in that department. My hope is that Freeman stays on, and both backs can complement each other, as Kamara and Ingram/Murray do.

As for money, Barkley/Kamara will command higher dollars. Saints got Murray off the scrap heap, and let Ingram go when his price got too high. Giants got Freeman off the scrap heap as well. The talent and playmaking ability of Barkley/Kamara are far rarer, and thus will command a premium

I can't remember seeing Kamara ever run the ball. But that having both would be OK w me ....you can always rotate running backs.

In comment 15016089 Black_Flag said:

Quote:

I can't remember seeing Kamara ever run the ball. But that having both would be OK w me ....you can always rotate running backs.

Kinda weird though that I can't remember ever seeing Kamara make a big play running, always receiving out of the back field.

In comment 15016089 Black_Flag said:

Quote:

I can't remember seeing Kamara ever run the ball. But that having both would be OK w me ....you can always rotate running backs.

Kamara has run the ball 587 times in the regular season and playoffs...he has 301 receptions

In comment 15016105 Black_Flag said:

Quote:

In comment 15016089 Black_Flag said: Quote: I can't remember seeing Kamara ever run the ball. But that having both would be OK w me ....you can always rotate running backs. Kinda weird though that I can't remember ever seeing Kamara make a big play running, always receiving out of the back field.

He averages 4.9 yards a carry in his regular season career. He had 22 rushing TDs his first two years in the league. His career long is a 74 yard run.

That would not work here because Freeman would not be getting the touches he needs to be an effective back. Gallman Jr was always there. that would be like same before.

I knew that if he had anything at all left this conversation was going to start. I said it quite a few times. You can look it up. I said give it 3 weeks and this is where the Barkley conversation is headed.

A guy who is a poor runner between the tackles and can't pass block vs a guy who runs with power and can block the blitzers is a big contrast.

IMO Barkley is a flawed talent. A very low batting average HR hitter. His "gifts" don't mean much in the NFL as an every down move the chains 4 minute offense back. He is the anti Derrick Henry.

All of us who hated the pick the minute it was made were right and we were right for the reasons we said on draft day. RBs are a dime a dozen in the NFL. You can find them in any round or even undrafted and they have short primes because they get hurt.

take a look at the 2 contracts signed by Kamara and Thomas. Same length, Kamara makes 25% less with almost 50% less guaranteed. And an almost completely free out after 2024. I love the Kamara deal.

awful lot of back patting on this thread. And what exactly is it for??

Freeman isn't coming close to Barkley's production and our running game is one of the worst in the league.

How is that trying to be spun into the argument that Freeman is as effective as Barkley? He's averaging 3.2 YPC and we have exactly 2TD's from RB's this season.

Saying Freeman is as effective as Barkley or that he's a better fit over and over again doesn't make it true.

In comment 15016223 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

awful lot of back patting on this thread. And what exactly is it for?? Freeman isn't coming close to Barkley's production and our running game is one of the worst in the league. How is that trying to be spun into the argument that Freeman is as effective as Barkley? He's averaging 3.2 YPC and we have exactly 2TD's from RB's this season. Saying Freeman is as effective as Barkley or that he's a better fit over and over again doesn't make it true.

We shall see. I like what I see so far. More touches will yield more insight.

In comment 15016240 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 15016223 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: awful lot of back patting on this thread. And what exactly is it for?? Freeman isn't coming close to Barkley's production and our running game is one of the worst in the league. How is that trying to be spun into the argument that Freeman is as effective as Barkley? He's averaging 3.2 YPC and we have exactly 2TD's from RB's this season. Saying Freeman is as effective as Barkley or that he's a better fit over and over again doesn't make it true. We shall see. I like what I see so far. More touches will yield more insight.

More touches? The past two games he has had 17 and 18 rushes. 60 and 61 yards. As far as players gotten off the scrap heap like this, he has been solid. But I'm not about to supplant a talent like Barkley for him.

In comment 15016240 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 15016223 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: awful lot of back patting on this thread. And what exactly is it for?? Freeman isn't coming close to Barkley's production and our running game is one of the worst in the league. How is that trying to be spun into the argument that Freeman is as effective as Barkley? He's averaging 3.2 YPC and we have exactly 2TD's from RB's this season. Saying Freeman is as effective as Barkley or that he's a better fit over and over again doesn't make it true. We shall see. I like what I see so far. More touches will yield more insight.

So you actually are trying to say that Freeman is as effective as Barkley??

In comment 15016105 Black_Flag said:

Quote:

In comment 15016089 Black_Flag said: Quote: I can't remember seeing Kamara ever run the ball. But that having both would be OK w me ....you can always rotate running backs. Kinda weird though that I can't remember ever seeing Kamara make a big play running, always receiving out of the back field.

I guess you missed his 49 yard TD run against the Giants in 2018. His 3rd rushing TD of that game.

with among the highest or the highest YPC over the past 4 years?

In comment 15015677 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

notice how our passing game has stunk? Well, you aren't stacking against Freeman, so its pick your poison. Our line is also playing better right now, something that's a factor.

I think this is the most significant thing. I like Freeman's quick to the hole style. But I also think if Barkley were running, not only would he hit the holes, but he would have broken 1 or 2 of them.

I think the line is run blocking much much better amd our backs are getting a head of steam and are asked to only beat ome guy.

and possibly both starting at Tackle very soon - the line was going to take time. It wouldn’t shock me at all to see Freeman at 4 ypc toward the end of the year. And if that’s the case, I can’t wait to see what Barkley at 100% can do with that same line.

If this will happen, then that will happen.

Jones will be a pro bowler is this. Meanwhile he looks worse than the bottom of the barrel teams back-up QBs.

If the oline improves than Saquon.


NO IT WON'T! There is nothing to say that Saqioun will come back as be as effective as Freeman. Freeman and Gallman can you give 100 yards a game. That is all that is required. Now we can work on replacing this QB and getting pass rushers.

Barkley just does not fit the NFL format of getting 10 yards within 4 downs to get another first down and move the sticks. He doesn't Barkley is guy who swings for the fence every at bat but ends up with a .100 batting average by striking out too many times.

And nerd boy you stole my idea of talking about money. Freeman cost this team a mere 3 mil. How much is saquon going to want.

Also you cannot look at Freeman by himself . It is obvious Gallman Jr is gong to get a lot of touches too.

more drivel? This thread was more productive in between having to read your nonsense.

Shouldn't you go read up on how Alvin Kamara has one of the highest YPC in football since he was drafted? After a post like that I question ever single thing you say, its all garbage.

it is obvious that Gallman is going to get a lot of touches?

Do you watch the fucking games? He got zero touches last week.

But then again - you are the same astute football fan that thinks Kamara is only a pass catcher.

Do you watch any games??

since Barkley's injury, and most of them came before we signed Freeman (and he was eased in to lear the offense/get his legs ready)

You can't make this shit up (or you can I guess).

He had 5 carries 25 yards for like 5 yards a carry and long 13 yard run. That is pretty good for a second string back. Combined they had like 100 yards rushing if you exclude Jones negative runs.

That is all that is required.

I know I don't.

of being ignorant.

That's really all we need to know.

In comment 15016777 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

more drivel? This thread was more productive in between having to read your nonsense. Shouldn't you go read up on how Alvin Kamara has one of the highest YPC in football since he was drafted? After a post like that I question ever single thing you say, its all garbage.

yea good question everything I say. Never question Jones. Never question Barkley. Continue to look to others ; the line; the TE; the coaches. empty calories statistics.

It it obvious unless you have watched too many Campbell soup commercials you can not win with those 2 guys as the focal point of the team.

You keep saying you can if this or that, but you can't.

In comment 15016779 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

it is obvious that Gallman is going to get a lot of touches? Do you watch the fucking games? He got zero touches last week. But then again - you are the same astute football fan that thinks Kamara is only a pass catcher. Do you watch any games??

You are putting words in my mouth.

Go back and read what I said. I said all of his BIG plays that I have seen from him were catches out of the backfield.

maybe if you tried reading you'd realize its possible to be critical and practical. The below is from the Jones thread that you also posted on.

I'm fairly confident we are 3-3 at worst
UConn4523 : 10/20/2020 2:20 pm : link : reply
with Kyler Murray. And the reason for that is two fold. First and foremost we'd be scoring a lot more points. And second and probably just as important, our defense might be playing with the lead more, thus creating more opportunities for turnovers.

I've supported the Jones pick and still do (he's got 2020 in my book), but he's got opportunities that better players would be executing on.

To speak sense into an individual that chooses "black flag" as their handle. Whether that is a belief, and or they are simply trolling is irrelevant.

he also has to have that internal clock
UConn4523 : 10/20/2020 2:29 pm : link : reply
and awareness to make those moves which doesn't show up on a stat sheet, but is very clear when watching him play. Jones' clock isn't good enough.

come down to big plays and turnovers. Saquon's the best position player outside of maybe Tyreek Hill and a few star WRs in terms of making huge positive field shifting plays. He's certainly the best RB in the league at making game-breaking plays, and might be the best since Sanders or atleast since Adrian Peterson was at his best.

He also combines this special big-play field shifting ability with incredible ball security, only 1 fumble on 646 touches over his NFL career. Ezekiel Elliot has 14 fumbles in 869 touches during the same time period. Dalvin Cook has 7 fumbles in 580 touches over the same time period. McCaffrey has 5 fumbles in 777 touches over the same time period. Derrick Henry has 6 fumbles in 682 touches over the same time period. Fumbles are worse than INTs, they are brutal backbreaking plays.

Barkley's ability to create big positive plays while preventing big negative plays (fumbles) is truly special and absolutely an outlier for his position. Does he need to improve his consistency in terms of gaining 3 yards instead of losing 2 yards attempting to wait for a bigger hole to develop? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean his skill-set isn't very valuable in this league, especially compared to a dime a dozen RB like Freeman. Hopefully Barkley comes back stronger than ever.

In comment 15016317 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

In comment 15016240 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: In comment 15016223 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: awful lot of back patting on this thread. And what exactly is it for?? Freeman isn't coming close to Barkley's production and our running game is one of the worst in the league. How is that trying to be spun into the argument that Freeman is as effective as Barkley? He's averaging 3.2 YPC and we have exactly 2TD's from RB's this season. Saying Freeman is as effective as Barkley or that he's a better fit over and over again doesn't make it true. We shall see. I like what I see so far. More touches will yield more insight. So you actually are trying to say that Freeman is as effective as Barkley??

Not yet. FMiC I like RBs thatcsee a crease and hit it. He get low. I need to see more to justify the feeling when I watch. I believe I witnessed some plays that Barkley may tried to bounce for no gain that Freeman got some hidden yards from. You might love Foie Gras and I may prefer a good burger. Neither one us is wrong. What if effective for me means less zero or negative gain runs?

a good % of those Freeman runs are further extended by Barkley, possibly 1 or 2 taken to the house.

The problem with this conversation is that people post like Barkley has never or can't get 3 yards. As Osi mentioned he needs to resist the urge to always go for the HR, but that doesn't mean it happens on every play. The other problem with this conversation is that people are posting like regardless of cost, Freeman is simply "better for this offense".

I find that to be absolute bullshit. We can't even score with improved O-Line play, how can anyone determine we are better off with Freeman?

you prefer Teddy Bridgewater to Cam because Cam runs too much.

O that you prefer Alexander Mattison to Dalvin Cook because Mattison is less injury prone

It's certainly an opinion, and it would certainly be wrong.

I can't even believe you are seriously trying to compare the two.

which still applies now since our line is as good or worse than then.

"Because of this discrepancy between the quality of the line and the quality of the back, 27.6 percent of Barkley’s run this season have gone for zero or fewer yards while 13.8 percent have gone for 10 yards or more. It’s part of the reason why the Giants are 32nd in rushing marginal efficiency (play-to-play success) but first in rushing marginal explosiveness (big play potential)."

Osi added more to that in his post, but the data just doesn't lie. No amount of "hitting the hole hard" is going to change getting hit at or before the LOS on over a quarter of your carries other than maybe falling forward for 1 yard instead of getting 0.

In comment 15016926 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

you prefer Teddy Bridgewater to Cam because Cam runs too much. O that you prefer Alexander Mattison to Dalvin Cook because Mattison is less injury prone It's certainly an opinion, and it would certainly be wrong. I can't even believe you are seriously trying to compare the two.

I am not trying to say Freeman and Barkley are equal. It is you playing Strawman...again. I prefer a RB that takes the yards available instead of trying to hit the home run. I think right now this team needs less 2 and 10 and more 2nd and 6. I don't need you to restate my opinion for me. Neither does anyone else.

Barkley is a better back than Freeman. Understand?

Freeman was sitting on the sidelines. We basically got him from Goodwill. I like Bradshaw too, I consider them similar. I like that style, my preference. It isn't wrong.

Wait for it... now

Barkley was the number 2 pick in the draft.

The delta in our cost to acquire them is exponentially greater than the difference in their comparative effectiveness.

wouldn’t be getting those 3 yarders.

Freeman’s YPC has been 2.0, 3.0, 3.5, and 3.4 in each of the games he’s played in. That isn’t good and we will continue to struggle to score points as long as it persists.

No idea why anyone would find this acceptable, or something that will work long term. It won’t.

have taken to the house since the line has been blocking a bit better. Of course we'd be facing more 8 man boxes. Of course the passing game would look better, but this is lost on a lot of people here.

.
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 15016993 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

wouldn’t be getting those 3 yarders. Freeman’s YPC has been 2.0, 3.0, 3.5, and 3.4 in each of the games he’s played in. That isn’t good and we will continue to struggle to score points as long as it persists. No idea why anyone would find this acceptable, or something that will work long term. It won’t.

This is where we stray into opinion and I can't be unhappy with your take. When I watch Barkley, I think he leaves some yards on the field sometimes. I see that, I feel that. I think Freeman is more willing to stick it in there and grind out those 1-3 yards. I don't think he has many negative runs. I want to see more before I die on that hill.

That is a reasonable take. If you don't agree, fine. It is what it is. I feel like I get lumped in with the people that have an agenda and want DG gone and think every single thing he has done is shit. That hasn't been me. I have been positive about the Barkley pick until now. In hindsight, it feels like the pick was a mistake based on all that we now know.

GM in this league would take Devonta Freeman over Saquon Barkley.

Are you kidding me?

In comment 15016996 Go Terps said:

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. Link - ( New Window )

Great share. I have Davis on my FF team. Currently in first place because of it.

and defensive alignment. No one is scared of freeman. and I’m definitely willing to give up a yard for the chance to break 10+.

In comment 15016998 Eric from BBI said:

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GM in this league would take Devonta Freeman over Saquon Barkley. Are you kidding me?

How many GMs would take Freeman getting paid close to the league minimum (in tandem with another cheap young RB) over what Barkley (coming off ACL surgery) is going to want when he’s extended?

A lot might take Barkley but it’s not as cut and dry as you make it IMO.

In comment 15016996 Go Terps said:

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. Link - ( New Window )

I don’t disagree with some of it, but it isn’t an absolute. If we had a better oline a guy like Freeman might be adequate. But a guy like Barkley would be transformative.

There’s no definitive answer, you can win both ways.

In comment 15016998 Eric from BBI said:

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GM in this league would take Devonta Freeman over Saquon Barkley. Are you kidding me?

Is anyone saying that? I know I typed.

Barkley is better than Freeman. He just is. I loved Ahmad Bradshaw. I think Freeman has similar style that I find effective.

A better question for GMs would be would you rather spend the second pick in the entire draft on Barkley or pick up Freeman cheap in FA?

That would be my point. I am in no fashion saying Freeman is a better back than Barkley.

you literally have posters above that would rather watch our offense with Freeman than Barkley, irregardless of costs.

The #2 pick debate is as beaten and tired as any topic in this history of this board. I’m strictly talking about 2020 and heading into next season.

And I’ll reserve the Barkley contract until the time comes, we kinda need to see him play first.

In comment 15017009 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 15016996 Go Terps said: Quote: . Link - ( New Window ) I don’t disagree with some of it, but it isn’t an absolute. If we had a better oline a guy like Freeman might be adequate. But a guy like Barkley would be transformative. There’s no definitive answer, you can win both ways.

I am so down with that. TY for being open minded enough to leave room for different line of thought. Refreshing!

In comment 15017009 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 15016996 Go Terps said: Quote: . Link - ( New Window ) I don’t disagree with some of it, but it isn’t an absolute. If we had a better oline a guy like Freeman might be adequate. But a guy like Barkley would be transformative. There’s no definitive answer, you can win both ways.

I don't know about that. I'm not sure Barkley is as good as we all want him to be.

the truth is the defense is giving him most of those runs. Whereas all eyes were on Saquon, now defenses are moving onto to rolling coverages and eyes to other players and forcing Jones to have to drive the team down the field in pain-staking slow plodding fashion. They are banking on they can’t to do it without a negative play at some point forcing the punt. And even if they do, the Defense then just uses the back of the end zone as an extra defender and looks for Jones to force a bad decision and turn it over or settle for FG.

The team has a substandard roster of Offensive players despite rebuilding for several years now.

In comment 15017018 UConn4523 said:

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you literally have posters above that would rather watch our offense with Freeman than Barkley, irregardless of costs. The #2 pick debate is as beaten and tired as any topic in this history of this board. I’m strictly talking about 2020 and heading into next season. And I’ll reserve the Barkley contract until the time comes, we kinda need to see him play first.

I agree. I am nervous about SB going forward. He had an injury that could lead to arthritis. He may not be as explosive as well. If he comes back next year and shows he has what he did as a rookie I would support extending him at the end of the year. If he doesn't I am not sure I would tie up a lot of guaranteed money in a RB because of the production we could get a lot cheaper.

sure, anything is possible. I’m just sick of the absolutes. Alvin Kamara can blow out his knee tomorrow, so can Mahomes or Lamar Jackson. I need to see what Barkley looks like after the injury.

In comment 15017027 UConn4523 said:

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sure, anything is possible. I’m just sick of the absolutes. Alvin Kamara can blow out his knee tomorrow, so can Mahomes or Lamar Jackson. I need to see what Barkley looks like after the injury.

Yep

In comment 15017027 UConn4523 said:

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sure, anything is possible. I’m just sick of the absolutes. Alvin Kamara can blow out his knee tomorrow, so can Mahomes or Lamar Jackson. I need to see what Barkley looks like after the injury.

Of course those guys can blow their knees out. But they didn't. Barkley did.

And even before he was hurt I don't think there's any evidence of Barkley being transformative. His presence didn't keep the offense from being dreadful. And opponents have locked on to his deficiencies as a pass blocker.

I think paying him would have been a massive error even before the injury.

You give Devonta Freeman a nice hole and he might take it for 12 yards and a first down

You give Saquon Barkley a nice hole and he's in the endzone

Defenses gameplan to stop Barkley. Nobody gameplans to stop Freeman

for many years we know the value of two stalwart RBs taken later in the draft, that is undeniable. You can win with them. You can win with Freeman too (not with Lewis though lol).

When I think about the Giants I always think about the razor's edge they needed to win. Eli couldn't run, so they had to protect him better, which caused this and that.

I think Barkley is the kind of player that tips those scales in the Giants favor, but its still the ultimate team game. Meaning without an OL, they won't be successful.

What we really need to see is Barkley with a fully fleshed out vision of this offense. With a good OL and solid weapons around him.

He can then take this offense to a scary level, because he will homerun some of those Freeman 10 yd runs to TDs. He will suck up those LBs and Jones can hit WRs deep. You will see wins pile up. But Barkley cannot carry a broken offense as we've seen.

In comment 15017018 UConn4523 said:

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you literally have posters above that would rather watch our offense with Freeman than Barkley, irregardless of costs. The #2 pick debate is as beaten and tired as any topic in this history of this board. I’m strictly talking about 2020 and heading into next season. And I’ll reserve the Barkley contract until the time comes, we kinda need to see him play first.

So, that is how it works sometimes with running backs.

Does anyone think Bradshaw was a better back than Tiki Barber? Your lizard brain might trick you into thinking something like "well if you won 2 superbowls with Bradshaw as your back , imagine how many you could have won with with a better back like Tiki."

Coughlin told you straight out the correct answer and that was none. "you aren't winning with tiki." he was right and so are we with Saquon. He is exciting, highly athletic, and it seem like he can take it to the house every down. The sad fact is that tackling in the NFL is much better than college and his touches often result in negative yards or no gain.

I've stated my cases plenty of times, posted data, etc. He was superb in 2018, the team around him was dreadful. In 2019 he got hurt and still ended up with a YPC 1.4 yards greater than Freeman this year.

Difference of opinion on this one, but i really don't feel like arguing with you about it anymore. You think what you think and there's no changing it under any circumstances.

go away. You've been exposed for the fraud you are several times in just this thread alone. Your opinion means nothing to me.

Stain.

If Barkley starts actually transforming this offense I'll believe he can do it. Until that happens it's just hopes and wishes that we all share.

Same thing with Jones. I stayed out thinking he was going to be really good. He's shown me through his play that he probably isn't, so I changed my mind.

I'm willing to change my mind if it's shown on the field, but they haven't earned the benefit of the doubt.

.

sure a back with over 2,000 all purpose yards in a season has a lot of value. Boiling it down to him not individually translating to more wins is really unfair.

In comment 15017045 UConn4523 said:

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go away. You've been exposed for the fraud you are several times in just this thread alone. Your opinion means nothing to me. Stain.

Why don't you go away. This thread is about the plainly obvious; that Freeman is a more effective back in terms of getting first downs/moving the sticks and fighting for tough yards which should translate to getting wins. We don't need some nerd to point out that saquon averaged .278 more yards so that is the end of the argument. And he certainly don't need you arguing for 2 pages relentlessly about what we are seeing with our own eyes isn't really what we are seeing. Some of us didn't drink the Barkley kool aid. (or Jones kool aid; he's another over-hyped bush leaguer).

And no you don't need to also watch NO Saints football or be an expert on backs around the league to see it. nor do you need a photographic memory of the last time the Giants played the Saints to see it. Heck I might have even missed that game!

BTW I don't know if you know what fraud means but I didn't try to deceive any one.

In comment 15017096 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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sure a back with over 2,000 all purpose yards in a season has a lot of value. Boiling it down to him not individually translating to more wins is really unfair.

Maybe it is, but when you're the 2nd pick overall and touched by the hand of God there are going to be harsh expectations placed on you. The yards and receptions that season don't really impress me - a ton of that was in garbage time after the Giants had been blown out.

Barkley (and Jones) are supposed to be the foundation of the next era. All we've really gotten though (from fans, not the team) is excuses about why they aren't performing at an elite level befitting the investment placed in them.

hasn't produced at an elite level, but Barkley has. It just didn't result in a jump in wins. Similar to McCaffery

In comment 15017103 Black_Flag said:

Quote:

In comment 15017045 UConn4523 said: Quote: go away. You've been exposed for the fraud you are several times in just this thread alone. Your opinion means nothing to me. Stain. Why don't you go away. This thread is about the plainly obvious; that Freeman is a more effective back in terms of getting first downs/moving the sticks and fighting for tough yards which should translate to getting wins. We don't need some nerd to point out that saquon averaged .278 more yards so that is the end of the argument. And he certainly don't need you arguing for 2 pages relentlessly about what we are seeing with our own eyes isn't really what we are seeing. Some of us didn't drink the Barkley kool aid. (or Jones kool aid; he's another over-hyped bush leaguer). And no you don't need to also watch NO Saints football or be an expert on backs around the league to see it. nor do you need a photographic memory of the last time the Giants played the Saints to see it. Heck I might have even missed that game! BTW I don't know if you know what fraud means but I didn't try to deceive any one.

You are trying to post like your opinion is one we should all take seriously. You are a fraud and I’ve pointed out examples why. How come I can have a decent conversation on here with everyone but you?

I don’t agree with everything Terps is saying, but there’s no animosity. Thegratefulhead thanked me for being open minded. I’ve shown you posts of me being critical of Jones.

Seems to me like there’s one constant here and it’s that your posting is awful.

In comment 15017139 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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hasn't produced at an elite level, but Barkley has. It just didn't result in a jump in wins. Similar to McCaffery

And there it is - exactly why RBs are over-valued.

The ability to produce some football type of "WAR" is never going to be materially reliable...

In comment 15017158 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15017139 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: hasn't produced at an elite level, but Barkley has. It just didn't result in a jump in wins. Similar to McCaffery And there it is - exactly why RBs are over-valued. The ability to produce some football type of "WAR" is never going to be materially reliable...

But you can say that about every position and there are countless examples to prove it, especially at positions like WR, TE, DE

I don't agree. I think the pendulum has swung so far in the other direction that RB's are now undervalued. Its like people that think Eli is overrated - well after years of being called that and how ordinary so many of his peers have looked, I consider his career underrated.

Top RB's don't barely get 50% of their contracts guaranteed. Go take a look at the other positions and what their top players are not only making on a per year average, but the % guaranteed. Their impact on the game from a dollars/cents perspective is cheap.

Draft capital, different story. But financially I completely disagree.

but I mostly agree on WR and TE. The way the sport has shifted on all levels where it's easier and more attractive to play WR (rules allows for more freedom and less big hits) the supply of quality WRs has grown exponentially. Quality TEs are still requires more digging. The blocking aspect really impact some guys from college to the pros.

High level productive DEs/Edge are very hard to find. So getting a good one is always a good idea in my book. Finding a way to measure their impact on wins is difficult because a good defense needs a good scheme with more quality across the board. And that's because it's so damn difficult to play defense with the rules.

FMiC...

I like them both. As players and humans. The 2000 all purpose yards did not help Eli keep his job. The following year they drafted a QB at 6 that I like. He has through the end of the year to prove he can hold on to the ball. Last week was a start, unlike some others, I am rooting for him to succeed. He has had the ball in hands at the end of the game a few times this year with the ability to make some plays and win the game. He needs to deliver in crunch time.

At the end of the year, we will have played 48 game since Barkley was drafted. He will have been on the field for 9 wins. Fair or not, I wanted more from him. The injuries are out of his control but it was one of the indictments of using the number 2 pick on a RB. They get hurt because of all the touches and hits.

I was OK with the pick at the time. After all I have witnessed, if I could go back in time with the power to alter the past I would change the pick. Next year, Barkley will have the opportunity to make fools of anyone that has questioned him. I hope he does.

In comment 15017174 UConn4523 said:

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I don't agree. I think the pendulum has swung so far in the other direction that RB's are now undervalued. Its like people that think Eli is overrated - well after years of being called that and how ordinary so many of his peers have looked, I consider his career underrated. Top RB's don't barely get 50% of their contracts guaranteed. Go take a look at the other positions and what their top players are not only making on a per year average, but the % guaranteed. Their impact on the game from a dollars/cents perspective is cheap. Draft capital, different story. But financially I completely disagree.

I get that to a degree. But, and I say this all of the time, good RBs seems to grow on trees. Great ones are still great, but do you really need a great one, or even a transcendent one, when the margins seem so thin in their overall value to the bottom line?

So why give up that extra spend - regardless of the cap impact - when you could spend those dollars is more areas of need. In my view...

4th round pick by Niners back in 2015. Picked up off waivers last year by Charlotte.

I think its fairly common to pencil in a RB on an already really good team. But I find that its short lived due to the league catching on, or them getting hurt. I think its a relatively easy position to come in and be adequate, but it is difficult to have sustained success.

Its just one of those things that I can really be on either side of the fence on. If we had a great OL and the RBBC thing worked, that's awesome. But I've watched this team try to do it for almost a decade and fail, and now it seems like they also failed with Barkley. I'd say "invest in the OL more" but we have...a ton, and that didn't work either.

There isn't a single reason for it. We need better talent evaluators to pair with our hopefully better coaching. We need some luck for a change with the injuries almost everywhere.

In comment 15017203 LBH15 said:

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4th round pick by Niners back in 2015. Picked up off waivers last year by Charlotte.

I'm interested to see how long it lasts. Generally speaking he will hit a wall like most of them do, or will get injured because guys like him aren't used to playing with a full work load. His lifetime 3.7 ypc average and minimal touches suggest it will happen sooner rather than later.

"the 49ers spend the most cap dollars on RBs" as a supporting point for RB value. They have divided their resources up amongst players with talent because they understand how much RBs get injured and to them having someone that is up to speed on Shanahan’s Offense is of tremendous value to them.

Another really simplistic and poor take is the idea that "Barkley turns a 12 yard run by Freeman into a touchdown" and that isn't really how it works, a lot of Barkely's touchdown runs come from spinning out of a tackle or making something out of nothing etc. But that is also his problem. And he tries to do that too much. The narrative when he was drafted was that he didn't need a great OL to perform. Now we are seeing a lot of people say it's just that the OL is playing better that Freeman looks better when they are just different players and maybe Saquon is the complete opposite of what we were sold.

Nelson is the most often talked about preferred pick by people that don't think the numbers support taking an RB that high and I think perhaps the best argument for that is looking at the Giants. We had Freeman come in off the street at what could at best be described as a negligible drop off. We can't even seem to use high picks to get productive players on the OL let alone the hope of picking up a replacement off the street.

To sum it up, Barkley needs a good OL to be functional, RBs generally are more fungible by far than OL so why on earth take him before you have a even league average OL?

The argument around game planning is dumb. Our offense was bad before Barkley was injured and it's bad after. We have a whole new offensive system and someone who is a renowned QB guru has exited. There is just no evidence whatsoever Barkley adds the kind of value to create a winning team to justify his salary and draft position. Does he make the team better than having Freeman? Yeah, i'd say so, but clearly others wouldn't say that as definitively and the margin isn't as clear or large as some are suggesting

so it will end one way or another.

But he Davis as hell earned his keep this season even if he fades away on the bench. Just another example of how much production you can get out RBs that aren't top of their draft class.

**

Quote:

To sum it up, Barkley needs a good OL to be functional, RBs generally are more fungible by far than OL so why on earth take him before you have a even league average OL?

Did we have a good OL in 2018? The perception that Barkley was just a decent back has developed a groundswell for some reason - likely because people didn't like his selection

In comment 15017210 UConn4523 said:

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There isn't a single reason for it. We need better talent evaluators to pair with our hopefully better coaching. We need some luck for a change with the injuries almost everywhere.

From your keyboard to God's ears on that. This OL jinx needs to end. Sort of encouraged by Peart and maybe moving Thomas to RT. Need to see what Lemieux has to offer. Perhaps Gettleman stepped in some horse manure the day the draft began and actually found some players.

and we are now talking about a back that has had 1 good season out of 3. I agree with Terps as well that a lot of those yards were racked up in losses and a #2 pick should be someone that helps your team win more games.

People questioning the pick very much did because of the injury risk for the position. One 2,000 yard season out of 3 just flatly isn't even close to good enough and many were expecting us not to get value out of the pick before seeing this play out so it isn't revisionist history.

In comment 15017235 LBH15 said:

Quote:

so it will end one way or another. But he Davis as hell earned his keep this season even if he fades away on the bench. Just another example of how much production you can get out RBs that aren't top of their draft class.

There's examples of a lot of things, doesn't mean they are constants. Even a back as solid as Latavius Murray likely nets the Saints a big regression in offense. Kamara has been their MVP, with or without Michael Thomas.

about RBs and their value that many opine to. They don't expect them to be constants, so they don't overvalue them at draft or contract time.

In comment 15017260 NoGainDayne said:

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and we are now talking about a back that has had 1 good season out of 3. I agree with Terps as well that a lot of those yards were racked up in losses and a #2 pick should be someone that helps your team win more games. People questioning the pick very much did because of the injury risk for the position. One 2,000 yard season out of 3 just flatly isn't even close to good enough and many were expecting us not to get value out of the pick before seeing this play out so it isn't revisionist history.

I've been a Penn State fan for a long time. So naturally I was a fan of Barkley. Even saw him play in high school at White Hall (Pa). I'm originally from north Jersey so my high school - Phillipsburg - used to play a lot of those PA powerhouses like Easton, Beth Catholic, Cen Catholic, White Hall, etc.

But I didn't want to draft him for many reasons described above. And I didn't like that he had something like 750+ touches coming out. The accumulated hits on a RB always bother me because - unless you are a freak like AP - those take a toll and can bend the production curve very quickly in the NFL where you just get hit more and hit harder.

Says games aren't won in the final minute and I agree with that. A win is an accumulation of execution, taking advantage of your opponent's mistakes, while making fewer mistakes. A unit can contribute to having the lead in the thirty seconds, but the defense fails to execute (opponent taking advantage of mistakes) which allows the opposition to take the lead with little time left. If the defense continued to make mistakes throughout the game that allowed the opposition to hang around in the finale minutes the state is then set for the team's demise.

If I am not mistaken the 2018 giants gave up a lot of leads late, leads that Barkley individually contributed to that was lost late in the game.

You can’t blame it all on the o line. He had a ton of negative runs at Penn St as well.

had two games that were out of reach in the 4th quarter, a 33-18 loss to the Saints, and the 17-0 loss against the Titans. In both of those games, Barkley did very little in the the quarter.

But how can anyone claim he got his yards in garbage time with a straight face? Were games out of reach in the first half??

1st Quarter - 267 yards 2 TD's
2nd Quarter - 455 yards 3 TD's
3rd Quarter - 378 yards 1 TD
4th Quarter - 171 yards 5 TD's

He literally had his least amount of yards late in the game. What can be possibly referenced to back up the assertion his yards came in "garbage time"?? Any evidence at all?

so we don't talk about "junk time" last year too, he also had the least amount of yards in the 4th quarter.

?

did Barkley get a ton of yards afterwards? The totals are right there above.

In comment 15017464 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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did Barkley get a ton of yards afterwards? The totals are right there above.

Off the top of my head I remember him getting a bunch of checkdowns with that game out of hand.

In comment 15017446 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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had two games that were out of reach in the 4th quarter, a 33-18 loss to the Saints, and the 17-0 loss against the Titans. In both of those games, Barkley did very little in the the quarter. But how can anyone claim he got his yards in garbage time with a straight face? Were games out of reach in the first half?? 1st Quarter - 267 yards 2 TD's 2nd Quarter - 455 yards 3 TD's 3rd Quarter - 378 yards 1 TD 4th Quarter - 171 yards 5 TD's He literally had his least amount of yards late in the game. What can be possibly referenced to back up the assertion his yards came in "garbage time"?? Any evidence at all?

Typical, you cherry pick one fact and then act like it proves your point.

Why not share the whole splits page for 2018?

In 12 games decided by 0-7 points, 4 wins and 8 losses, he averaged 4.44 Y/A and 77.7 Y/G for receiving 7.56 Y/R and 42.8 Y/G

In 4 games decided by 15+ points 1 win and 3 losses, 7.35 Y/A and 93.8 Y/G and for receiving 9 Y/A and 51.8 Y/G.

So in blowouts when we did worse Barkley did more work, which if you consider the fact that you'd like to run the ball with the lead doesn't reflect well on the point that he didn't do well in "garbage time." Looking at these numbers differently he got almost 30% of his yards in 4 blowouts and 70% of them in 12 closer games.

But also like usual you've latched on to a lesser point and don't even make the argument well. The larger point of if he was the right value is a very clear no.


Pro Football Reference 2018 Barkley Splits - ( New Window )

To me Derrick Henry is the best back in the league - am actual bell cow that wears down opponents and seems to get stronger as winter arrives. Closes out games and makes people quit.

That's a guy that's tough to replace, who makes a difference in the win/loss column. The other guys I think are more easily replaced through scheme and the middle rounds of the draft.

"Cherry pick stats".

Who gives a fuck what his totals were at the end of games of various scores. The point is that he DID NOT have a ton of yards in "junk time".

As usual - a faulty point was made and when shown the breakdown BY QUARTER, which is much more relevant to when he got his yards than what the eventual score was - it showed that the least amount of Barkley's yards came in actual "junk time".

The stats literally debunk the shitty take that his yards were mostly when the game was decided. A simple "my bad" would have sufficed.

that 2018 team played the most games decided by less than a TD than any team in the league.

The facts aren't supporting your take at all.

In comment 15017479 Go Terps said:

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To me Derrick Henry is the best back in the league - am actual bell cow that wears down opponents and seems to get stronger as winter arrives. Closes out games and makes people quit. That's a guy that's tough to replace, who makes a difference in the win/loss column. The other guys I think are more easily replaced through scheme and the middle rounds of the draft.

Titans basically did this offseason - 4 yrs/$50M. That’s an incredible deal for the Titans.

The other two I’d seriously consider are Kamara and Lamar Jackson. ; )

In comment 15017556 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15017479 Go Terps said: Quote: To me Derrick Henry is the best back in the league - am actual bell cow that wears down opponents and seems to get stronger as winter arrives. Closes out games and makes people quit. That's a guy that's tough to replace, who makes a difference in the win/loss column. The other guys I think are more easily replaced through scheme and the middle rounds of the draft. Titans basically did this offseason - 4 yrs/$50M. That’s an incredible deal for the Titans. The other two I’d seriously consider are Kamara and Lamar Jackson. ; )

Lamar ran for more yards and TDs in college than Barkley did. And threw for more yards and TDs than Jones did.

Unbelievable that he wasn't the first player in that draft.

In comment 15015782 Black_Flag said:

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If Barry Sanders could not win anything I sure don't expect to win anything with a poor man's Barry Sanders.

Now this is special.

Meanwhile, the Lions never had a better run than when Barry was toting the rock. But hey, you do you. Just do you. Forget the facts. It's all style points anyway.

Maybe if Barkley was actually healthy he'd be a better RB? just a thought.

you're blind. Everything here is so fucking black n white...I can't take it anymore.

If the Ravens drafted Barkley he's probably an MVP caliber player> If the Giants drafted Jackson he'd be fun to watch, but he wouldn't be LAMAR JACKSON, at least not yet.

I love how we gloss over that the least talented team in football drafted Barkley while the most talented team with thye best HC drafted Jackson.

Only here is the devil never in the details. Here it is all about platitudes and one offs.

the fact the Lions sucked worse without Barry than with is irrelevant.

The point is that a dominating back was not able to win a championship by being the focal point of an offense.

And that was before the NFL became a pass friendly league.

I see Barley's talent for what it is. Yes in the right environment with another superstar player -- like Lamar -- he could shine and be special.

That is a unique set of circumstances and the Giants are nowhere near that at the moment.

But that point proves nothing anyway. Lamar Jackson would still be the focal point of that offense.

IF you put Saquon on the Tennesee Titans he would not look much different and they would not have gotten past the Patriots.

Terrell Davis is laughing right along with me.

In comment 15017479 Go Terps said:

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To me Derrick Henry is the best back in the league - am actual bell cow that wears down opponents and seems to get stronger as winter arrives. Closes out games and makes people quit. That's a guy that's tough to replace, who makes a difference in the win/loss column. The other guys I think are more easily replaced through scheme and the middle rounds of the draft.

Yup.

Only played with a hall of fame QB and maybe top 5 Qbs of all time

in the SB against Green Bay (carried by Davis) and was ordinary against the Falcons (still all TD). His playoff career especially in the 2H of his career was as meh as it gets.

So yeah, a RB can carry an offense. Different NFL now but if you are going to go back in time to Barry Sanders then I'm going to do the same.

you like watching him and don't care about winning and losing.

Further, you have a hard on for me because I am new.

Go Terps has been saying the same thing with regard to Barkley (and jones) ; it is just as controversial and unconventional , but I don't see you mocking, ridiculing, and name calling him.

In comment 15017755 djm said:

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you're blind. Everything here is so fucking black n white...I can't take it anymore. If the Ravens drafted Barkley he's probably an MVP caliber player> If the Giants drafted Jackson he'd be fun to watch, but he wouldn't be LAMAR JACKSON, at least not yet. I love how we gloss over that the least talented team in football drafted Barkley while the most talented team with thye best HC drafted Jackson. Only here is the devil never in the details. Here it is all about platitudes and one offs.

Barkley is indeed immensely talented. But for the gabillionth time, he was the wrong player for this team to draft at the time.

He certainly helps offset some of the sting of the losses because he is very entertaining. But at the end of the day, he doesn't really make a difference in the W column. Particularly for this team right now...

submit. How many names did you call me and other in threads? You also claimed I’m a Jones fanboy and I provided my own posting history to debunk that.

You don’t read what people are saying when they disagree with you and then attack them for their opinions, many of which are far more thought out than yours.

Again, no problems with anyone else on here. I wonder why.

Zeke - core piece on division winner/contender since he got drafted 4OA
Kamara - core piece on division winner/contender since he got drafted round 2
CMC - core piece on a crappy team since getting drafted 8OA
Cook - core piece on a wild card team since getting drafted rd 2
Henry - core piece on a wild card team since getting drafted rd 2

Clearly there is a value of top RB's to both good offenses and good teams. Clearly there's also a correlation to those guys being selected with high picks. There's certainly more than 1 way to skin a cat and many successful teams have gone with more of the committee approach - but drafting a top RB is one way to skin the cat.

JMO but I think there are only so many skill players good enough to be the centerpiece of an offensive gameplan and they have enormous value whether they are a RB, TE, or WR. And as Giant fans we've seen great talents at all 3 positions have their careers minimized by injuries so I'm not sure durability is as big of a differentiator as many insist. OBJ, Cruz, Nicks, Steve Smith, and Shockey all had their careers heavily impacted by injuries. The reality is there are very few players as durable as someone like Tiki.

In comment 15017559 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Lamar ran for more yards and TDs in college than Barkley did. And threw for more yards and TDs than Jones did. Unbelievable that he wasn't the first player in that draft.

He's a unicorn for sure. But he's in such an ideal situation. The Ravens are good and deep on both sides of the ball and have one of the best coaching staffs in the league. And all of this allows LJax to mostly be a front runner, which he is great at.

But there are still legitimate questions to be answered about his passing skills. When the Ravens are behind and need to rely exclusively on the pass, he struggles to deliver.

When he's had to go toe to toe with Mahomes and the Chiefs, LJax has basically folded like a blanket. And the Chiefs aren't going away any time soon.

In comment 15017843 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15017559 Go Terps said: Quote: Lamar ran for more yards and TDs in college than Barkley did. And threw for more yards and TDs than Jones did. Unbelievable that he wasn't the first player in that draft. He's a unicorn for sure. But he's in such an ideal situation. The Ravens are good and deep on both sides of the ball and have one of the best coaching staffs in the league. And all of this allows LJax to mostly be a front runner, which he is great at. But there are still legitimate questions to be answered about his passing skills. When the Ravens are behind and need to rely exclusively on the pass, he struggles to deliver. When he's had to go toe to toe with Mahomes and the Chiefs, LJax has basically folded like a blanket. And the Chiefs aren't going away any time soon.

The problem isn't Jackson; it's the play calling. Jackson has a 24-6 regular season record as a starter. The 3 of the 6 losses everyone remembers are the 2 playoff losses and the loss to KC this year. In each of those three losses the Ravens made the mistake of abandoning the run when they got behind. They should NEVER do that. Jackson's quality is based on his excellence as a runner - not as a passer.

In the playoff loss to Tennessee Jackson team 20 times, and the RBs 9. Most of Jackson's 20 were probably called passes that he improvised into runs.

That doesn't work. The Baltimore coaches have got to stop panicking the moment they fall behind against quality opposition. Hold your water and keep calling designed runs; don't abandon the offense.

In comment 15017543 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

that 2018 team played the most games decided by less than a TD than any team in the league. The facts aren't supporting your take at all.

This is such a meaningless stat.

You know how you stay off this leaderboard? You win games by 8 or more points.

In comment 15017871 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 15017843 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 15017559 Go Terps said: Quote: Lamar ran for more yards and TDs in college than Barkley did. And threw for more yards and TDs than Jones did. Unbelievable that he wasn't the first player in that draft. He's a unicorn for sure. But he's in such an ideal situation. The Ravens are good and deep on both sides of the ball and have one of the best coaching staffs in the league. And all of this allows LJax to mostly be a front runner, which he is great at. But there are still legitimate questions to be answered about his passing skills. When the Ravens are behind and need to rely exclusively on the pass, he struggles to deliver. When he's had to go toe to toe with Mahomes and the Chiefs, LJax has basically folded like a blanket. And the Chiefs aren't going away any time soon. The problem isn't Jackson; it's the play calling. Jackson has a 24-6 regular season record as a starter. The 3 of the 6 losses everyone remembers are the 2 playoff losses and the loss to KC this year. In each of those three losses the Ravens made the mistake of abandoning the run when they got behind. They should NEVER do that. Jackson's quality is based on his excellence as a runner - not as a passer. In the playoff loss to Tennessee Jackson team 20 times, and the RBs 9. Most of Jackson's 20 were probably called passes that he improvised into runs. That doesn't work. The Baltimore coaches have got to stop panicking the moment they fall behind against quality opposition. Hold your water and keep calling designed runs; don't abandon the offense.

Yup. They are giving up when they do. Up the tempo and run when behind. Force them to defend it and then take your shots. Can't panic.

Jackson is 24-4 in the regular season, 24-6 including playoffs. Fantastic success so far.

In comment 15017914 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Jackson is 24-4 in the regular season, 24-6 including playoffs. Fantastic success so far.

Losing to Mahomes is an indictment of no one. We might be watching the best to ever play. Mahomes is a freak.

In comment 15017918 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 15017914 Go Terps said: Quote: Jackson is 24-4 in the regular season, 24-6 including playoffs. Fantastic success so far. Losing to Mahomes is an indictment of no one. We might be watching the best to ever play. Mahomes is a freak.

No doubt. Mahomes is on a different planet right now.

Still, LJax was god awful in that game once KC exploded for 21 points in the second quarter. Went 15/28 for 97 yards.

Until I see some better results for LJax when the Ravens get behind, that's his Achilles heel.

In comment 15017769 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

Terrell Davis is laughing right along with me.

I am just kidding around now by in my imagination ....

You and Terrel Davis would be like Paul, the fanboy in Big Fan when he gets beat up by his favorite player
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 15017879 ron mexico said:

Quote:

In comment 15017543 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: that 2018 team played the most games decided by less than a TD than any team in the league. The facts aren't supporting your take at all. This is such a meaningless stat. You know how you stay off this leaderboard? You win games by 8 or more points.

Not sure what meaning you are attaching to it. My point was the 2018 Giants didn't have a whole lot of "junk time" for Barkley to supposedly pile up a ton of yards in.

You know, the assertion made by at least two posters on this thread.

In comment 15015870 averagejoe said:

Quote:

Barkley is a talent. He got paid well for being an incredible athlete. He is not a football player. His gaudy stats are meaningless because he does not help us win. His TFL's have killed this offense and his blocking and receiving skills have been a major disappointment. That pick doomed this franchise. He was the generational guy without any flaws that would make a weak OL look better. A more explosive Ezekiel Elliot. A swing and a miss.

Hey, I've come around to thinking drafting Barkley at #2 was a mistake too after initially being so enthusiastic about it, but let's not go crazy here. He isn't perfect, he may not even be quite as good as initially expecte, but he also isn't just some fast athlete with no football instincts.

In comment 15018013 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

In comment 15017879 ron mexico said: Quote: In comment 15017543 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: that 2018 team played the most games decided by less than a TD than any team in the league. The facts aren't supporting your take at all. This is such a meaningless stat. You know how you stay off this leaderboard? You win games by 8 or more points. Not sure what meaning you are attaching to it. My point was the 2018 Giants didn't have a whole lot of "junk time" for Barkley to supposedly pile up a ton of yards in. You know, the assertion made by at least two posters on this thread.

A quick look at some of losses by 7 or less reveal they were down 20-3,20-6 and 20-6 in the 4th quarter. The stat you are referencing doesn't really provide an accurate barometer of junk time. The final score doesn't always represent how close the game actually was.

I don't think he piled up yardage in junk time according to what I remember of that season. Barkley was exciting and explosive. My recollection is that is the most long plays of more than 40 yards of any Giant I can remember. I think junk time is a bad take. My post above is only referencing that the final score is not good indicator of how much junk time was in the game.

I wonder if his best use isn't as a slot receiver/3rd down RB Swiss Army knife. Like what Cleveland was doing with Hunt before Chubb got hurt.

are you suggesting that teams just let him break 50 yard runs because the game was over? Can we also figure out which RB's are piling up yards when they are up 30-0 and the other team gave up, and then exclude those yards from their rushing stats?

We get it, you don't think we can with with Barkley and taking him was stupid. But its border line absurd how far its going.

In comment 15018047 Go Terps said:

Quote:

I wonder if his best use isn't as a slot receiver/3rd down RB Swiss Army knife. Like what Cleveland was doing with Hunt before Chubb got hurt.

I would certainly like to see him on the LoS more on passing downs, out wide or in the slot like they used to use M Faulk. Right now, they just blitz and force him to block, which he could improve a bit at. McVay would break the all time yards in a season record with him.

In comment 15018047 Go Terps said:

Quote:

I wonder if his best use isn't as a slot receiver/3rd down RB Swiss Army knife. Like what Cleveland was doing with Hunt before Chubb got hurt.

I already thought of that. But that would be a shit ton of money for someone like that. Secondly, he would not really be starting since the bulk of the carries on first down and second would be by another back! Thirdly, it would be too obvious that it is a screen to Barkley the minute he goes in motion and lines up in the slot or the ball isn't handed off to him. Especially with a QB like Jones that does not confidence or was instructed by coaching not to throw deep out routes.

either.

I do remember a crap load of check downs by Eli to Saquon throughout the season on 3rd and long though. Manning wasn't interested in moving around or staying patient in the pocket any longer at that point in his career.

In comment 15018085 LBH15 said:

Quote:

either. I do remember a crap load of check downs by Eli to Saquon throughout the season on 3rd and long though. Manning wasn't interested in moving around or staying patient in the pocket any longer at that point in his career.

Exactly. Barkley's receiving numbers were awfully inflated by 7 years catches on 3rd and 12. That's obviously not Barkley's fault, but pointing to his 2000 yard season a measure of his impact is flimsy. The offense was still really poor.

.

4yrs/$31M+, about $7.8M AAV.

Meanwhile, the Titans re-signed Henry this summer for another 4yrs/$50M, $12.5M AAV.

If we decide to keep Barkley, which I would not advocate right now, is he even worth what Henry signed for?

Henry is a real difference maker who is impacting the bottom line for the Titans. A monster who runs equally effective between the tackles and outside the tackles. And the Titans don't utilize him nearly enough in the passing game. A total stud.

There are a number of reasons the wisdom of investing a high value resource like the 2nd overall pick at RB can be debated. And there are plenty of reasons to debate whether Barkley was the right choice for the 2018 Giants. And likewise counter arguments to support both.

What I think is fascinating is the line of thinking that Barkly was unequivocally the right choice because he was the best player at that moment. I've never wrapped my head around that part.

In comment 15018091 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 15018085 LBH15 said: Quote: either. I do remember a crap load of check downs by Eli to Saquon throughout the season on 3rd and long though. Manning wasn't interested in moving around or staying patient in the pocket any longer at that point in his career. Exactly. Barkley's receiving numbers were awfully inflated by 7 years catches on 3rd and 12. That's obviously not Barkley's fault, but pointing to his 2000 yard season a measure of his impact is flimsy. The offense was still really poor.

It doesn't mess with your overall point on Barkley to admit that he was both productive and explosive in 2018. So what? He was a great back in 2018. Did that season open up PA for Manning to show that he he still had "It" Hell no, we drafted a QB at 6 the following year. Did having Barkley help the win column in 2019? Not measurably. Barkley would have been an amazing pick for team close to a championship. It points to what I feel is the most valid criticism of a GM and DG in particular.

DG failed in his evaluation of his own roster including the quarterback. He failed in his evaluation of FAs that year. This is why the Barkley pick was wrong in hindsight IMHO. I think you should allow that Barkley is a very good RB, otherwise they attack that point.

"How can you criticize picking the overall best player in the draft at #2?"

not how many "junk yards" he racked up.

To explore the thought a little more though. You have to consider how bad the Giants defense was in 2018 and why the 15+ point games are especially relevant. Every reason to think teams that felt like they could beat our defense would just want to prevent the big play from our offense. ~30% of his yards coming from those games which represent 25% of the season is not insignificant and that kind of analysis certainly beats one that points to 2 games as "the only blowouts." The check down conversation is important especially given Barkley and where the conversation about wins is important. I don't really care about his 2,000 yards if they didn't come in important games. And this is especially important with the stat I shared earlier in 12 non blowout games (decided by 0-7 points) he averaged a pedestrian 4.44 yards a carry. The league average Y/A for 2018 was 4.41. In his "best" season he provided us with a league average yards per attempt which is very much not what you use the #2 pick on. Toss around 2K all purpose yards you want but you want a back that is better than league average in close games when you commit those kinds of resources.

Will leave you with one more stat from that season.

In the last 4 minutes of games where we led Barkley had a grand total of 27 all purpose yards.

In the last 4 minutes of games we trailed he had 113. 4X the amount of yards when down, not what you want. You draft a guy like Barkley to lock up games for you in wins. He averaged .8 yards a carry in those leading with 4 mins or less situations.


Calculation of Y/A for the league from PFR 2018 Team Stats - ( New Window )

so arguing about what he’d be making seems rather pointless. We will know his value next year. But RB contracts remain incredibly flexible and team friendly. WR contracts are the dangerous ones, they are over inflated and a bunch of them look terrible with no outs since the guarantees are almost double the typical top RB contracts.

In comment 15018098 christian said:

Quote:

There are a number of reasons the wisdom of investing a high value resource like the 2nd overall pick at RB can be debated. And there are plenty of reasons to debate whether Barkley was the right choice for the 2018 Giants. And likewise counter arguments to support both. What I think is fascinating is the line of thinking that Barkly was unequivocally the right choice because he was the best player at that moment. I've never wrapped my head around that part.

Me neither. The best player in that draft was Jackson, with maybe Nelson also having an argument. Jackson was an incredible college player. Incredible.

In comment 15018123 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

so arguing about what he’d be making seems rather pointless. We will know his value next year. But RB contracts remain incredibly flexible and team friendly. WR contracts are the dangerous ones, they are over inflated and a bunch of them look terrible with no outs since the guarantees are almost double the typical top RB contracts.

Why is it that WRs are getting guarantees at high levels? The NFL is full of young explosive WRs and the college game becoming more pass happy is putting out a ton of guys each year it seems.

You would think that would normalize somewhat as well...no?

In comment 15018123 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

so arguing about what he’d be making seems rather pointless. We will know his value next year. But RB contracts remain incredibly flexible and team friendly. WR contracts are the dangerous ones, they are over inflated and a bunch of them look terrible with no outs since the guarantees are almost double the typical top RB contracts.

Not looking to really argue. Henry is the gold standard right now and the Titans probably got a very reasonable deal for a player who is a legit force multiplier.

I was just testing that bbcode directive, meant to preview it only...

In comment 15018142 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15018123 UConn4523 said: Quote: so arguing about what he’d be making seems rather pointless. We will know his value next year. But RB contracts remain incredibly flexible and team friendly. WR contracts are the dangerous ones, they are over inflated and a bunch of them look terrible with no outs since the guarantees are almost double the typical top RB contracts. Not looking to really argue. Henry is the gold standard right now and the Titans probably got a very reasonable deal for a player who is a legit force multiplier.

Force multiplier? Sure if you give him good blocking up front. He is not a guy you want running behind a poor offensive line, he doesn't have much agility and his acceleration isn't good. I'm really curious what he's going to look like moving forward without Lewan.

offensive line is nasty. Lots of RBs would look good behind them. Henry is very good, but no way does he have 2000 total yards behind the crap the Giants threw out there in 2018.

Here are some stats from Football Outsiders
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/rb/2018
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/rb/2019

I know I have made similar posts in the past, but...
We all know that the NFL is a passing league now. However that doesn't mean that rushing has no value.
There is a correlation with winning and with run success (gaining a 1st down or TD on a run, or getting 40% on 1st and 50% on 2nd down of the yards remaining to achieve a 1st 1st down). For a running back this metric is expressed on FO as SucRt (Success Rate).

Barkley is near the bottom of the league in success rate, 40th in 2018, and 38th in 2019. We all know Barkley is boom or bust. Turns out boom or bust is bad for winning, consistently getting 3 to 6 yards per play is what leads to winning. That is not Barkley, and that is why we haven't seen value from him as a RB. So far this year Freeman has been getting NS quickly and more consistently getting positive yards. Although he had trouble in Atlanta last year.

In college Barkley was the same kind of runner. He has similar success ratios from his time a Penn St. So this is what Barkley is, not just an aberration.

Similarly his passing stats are very pedestrian as well. There isn't a success metric in FO like there is for rushing, but they do have their DVOA. Barkley's DVOA has been stubbornly mediocre in the receiving game. I suspect that is as other's have said that he gets to many garbage yards, dump offs on 3rd down that don't make a 1st, and garbage time plays that don't get the Giants back in the game.

What we have seen from him hardly ranks as "the best player available in the draft". In fact, Barkley is likely not the best RB from that draft. There are multiple RBs that rank way ahead of Barkley as far as consistent production from 2018.

Sorry about the formatting, BBI needs to implement more of the bbcode directives for table formatting to work well...

YEAR 2018

Player Team DVOA Rk Runs SucRt Rank
G.Edwards BAL 13.90% 9 137 63% 1
A.Kamara NO 18.50% 4 194 58% 2
M.Ingram NO 2.90% 19 138 57% 3
T.Gurley LAR 23.60% 1 256 57% 4
C.McCaffrey CAR 9.60% 10 219 55% 5
A.Jones GB 17.10% 7 133 55% 6
K.Hunt KC 9.10% 11 181 55% 7
M.Mack IND 16.80% 8 195 54% 8
M.Gordon LAC 20.80% 3 175 53% 9
D.Martin OAK -12.20% 37 172 53% 10
S.Michel NE -2.70% 26 209 53% 11
K.Johnson DET 17.50% 5 118 53% 12
A.Ekeler LAC 4.90% 15 106 52% 13
M.Davis SEA 9.00% 12 112 52% 14
C.Carson SEA 3.90% 17 247 51% 15
D.Henry TEN 23.10% 2 215 51% 16
J.Howard CHI -11.10% 36 250 50% 17
E.Elliott DAL 2.90% 20 304 50% 18
F.Gore MIA 5.70% 14 156 50% 19
N.Chubb CLE 1.10% 24 192 50% 19
J.Adams PHI -11.00% 34 120 50% 19
P.Lindsay DEN 17.30% 6 192 49% 22
J.Mixon CIN 6.40% 13 237 49% 23
J.Conner PIT 2.30% 21 215 49% 24
T.J.Yeldon JAX -12.50% 39 104 48% 25
A.Collins BAL -9.40% 33 114 47% 26
L.Fournette JAX -9.30% 32 133 47% 26
A.Peterson WAS -6.00% 29 251 47% 28
R.Freeman DEN -6.80% 31 130 46% 29
M.Breida SF 1.30% 23 153 46% 30
L.Murray MIN -4.20% 27 140 46% 31
J.Williams GB 1.70% 22 121 45% 32
K.Drake MIA 4.70% 16 120 45% 33
C.Ivory BUF -14.30% 42 115 44% 34
L.Miller HOU -5.30% 28 210 44% 35
P.Barber TB -12.40% 38 234 44% 36
T.Coleman ATL -6.40% 30 167 43% 37
A.Morris SF -30.50% 47 111 41% 38
A.Blue HOU -23.00% 44 150 41% 39
S.Barkley NYG 3.30% 18 261 41% 40
D.Cook MIN -13.70% 41 133 41% 41
C.Hyde 2TM -11.00% 35 172 39% 42
Da.Johnson ARI -12.60% 40 258 38% 43
L.Blount DET -27.90% 46 154 37% 44
L.McCoy BUF -26.20% 45 161 37% 45
I.Crowell NYJ -1.90% 25 143 36% 46
D.Lewis TEN -20.10% 43 155 34% 47

Player Team DYAR DVOA ▴ Rank
S.Barkley NYG -0.7% 28



YEAR 2019

Player Team DVOA Rk Runs SucRt Rank
M.Ingram BAL 19.80% 2 202 60% 1
L.Murray NO 10.70% 9 146 60% 2
C.Carson SEA 1.90% 16 278 57% 3
E.Elliott DAL 16.50% 4 301 56% 4
A.Jones GB 12.00% 7 236 56% 5
G.Edwards BAL 11.80% 8 133 56% 6
J.Williams GB -1.50% 21 107 53% 7
J.Howard PHI 14.20% 6 119 53% 8
R.Mostert SF 26.80% 1 137 53% 9
M.Mack IND 1.00% 18 247 52% 10
K.Johnson DET -13.70% 41 113 52% 11
A.Kamara NO 3.10% 15 171 52% 12
C.Hyde HOU -3.30% 26 245 52% 13
J.Jacobs OAK 3.50% 14 242 51% 14
M.Gordon LAC -7.50% 33 162 51% 15
K.Drake 2TM 19.70% 3 170 51% 16
D.Henry TEN 6.70% 11 303 50% 17
Dam.Williams KC -6.80% 31 111 50% 18
P.Lindsay DEN 1.90% 17 224 50% 19
D.Washington OAK -7.00% 32 108 50% 19
D.Singletary BUF 3.70% 13 151 50% 21
S.Michel NE -6.40% 29 247 49% 22
D.Cook MIN 9.30% 10 250 49% 23
B.Snell PIT -11.70% 39 108 49% 24
L.McCoy KC -4.10% 28 101 49% 25
T.Gurley LAR -2.40% 25 223 48% 26
A.Peterson WAS -4.10% 27 211 47% 27
C.McCaffrey CAR 14.90% 5 287 47% 28
D.Montgomery CHI -13.00% 40 242 46% 29
J.Mixon CIN -0.90% 20 278 46% 30
M.Breida SF -1.80% 22 123 46% 31
A.Ekeler LAC -10.00% 35 132 45% 32
R.Jones TB -2.30% 24 172 45% 33
M.Sanders PHI -6.60% 30 179 45% 34
J.Conner PIT -11.30% 38 115 45% 35
F.Gore BUF -15.20% 42 166 45% 36
N.Chubb CLE 4.50% 12 298 45% 37
S.Barkley NYG 0.40% 19 217 44% 38
L.Fournette JAX -8.60% 34 265 42% 39
L.Bell NYJ -16.60% 44 246 42% 40
D.Freeman ATL -11.10% 37 184 41% 41
R.Freeman DEN -11.00% 36 132 41% 42
P.Barber TB -29.80% 45 154 40% 43
T.Coleman SF -15.30% 43 137 39% 44
A.Mattison MIN -2.20% 23 100 38% 45


Player Team DYAR DVOA ▴ Rank
S.Barkley NYG -22.8% 45

YEAR 2020
Does not have enough runs or catches to qualify for full stats in FO, but his DVOA Running the ball is an abysmal -31.6% and passing it is -0.2%.

To suggest that Barkley's 2000 yard season was a "good" one is nothing but spin. What makes Barkleys receiving stats look even worse is when you consider that FO only includes plays where he was targeted. Plays where he needed to block are not. And we all know what a liability he is when it comes to blocking in the passing game.

JonC posted a stat that was something like 30% of all his yards were gained on just 30 plays (I forget the number of plays. Help JonC?). Whateer the exact number of plays, it wasn't many, it is far too few plays for his total yards to be impactful.

In today's NFL, big plays come from the receivers. RB is a support position. It is nearly impossible in this day and age to sustain having a RB being your primary source of yards. The rules have changed, the OL that come out of college has changed. The league just doesn't support the bell cow RB model anymore.

In comment 15018166 Zeke's Alibi said:

Quote:

Force multiplier? Sure if you give him good blocking up front. He is not a guy you want running behind a poor offensive line, he doesn't have much agility and his acceleration isn't good. I'm really curious what he's going to look like moving forward without Lewan.

Acceleration isn't good?

Did you just seriously right that? Or did you mean quickness.

Henry has busted off two 95 yard TD runs the last two years. This is a 6'4" 250lb guy who runs a legit 4.5; and runs away from defenders when he isn't driving them into the turf like lawn darts.

Do you think Henry's running ability hasn't made Tannehill and their receivers more productive players? That's really his force multiplier impact.

In comment 15018167 Zeke's Alibi said:

Quote:

offensive line is nasty. Lots of RBs would look good behind them. Henry is very good, but no way does he have 2000 total yards behind the crap the Giants threw out there in 2018.

Who cares about 2000 total yards of they're not translating to points?

Sorry, but Barkley isn't in Henry's class. We're seeing Henry put up massive, game winning performances, and often in critical November/December games.

no idea. Michael Thomas is fantastic, but they are winning games without him even though Brees is a shell of himself - its all Kamara. After Beckham, and seeing guys like Thomas, Cooper, Julio Jones, Allen etc all making insane guaranteed money for up/down production and health - I really don't get it.

bw in dc. nothing really to argue, Henry's deal is great. And if he gets hurt the guarantees are low and they can move on easily. Pretty much the same with every new deal being handed out. CMC only has $38m guaranteed iirc.

Barkley and the large % of his yards from a just a small % of carries.

Christian - can you repost those numbers you ran?

In comment 15018194 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

no idea. Michael Thomas is fantastic, but they are winning games without him even though Brees is a shell of himself - its all Kamara. After Beckham, and seeing guys like Thomas, Cooper, Julio Jones, Allen etc all making insane guaranteed money for up/down production and health - I really don't get it.

Saints have plenty of talent all-around. They are still scoring at a good clip and their defense is well above average too. Good roster.

I would have to imagine that the WR guarantees will come back down to earth based on a bigger supply of talented younger guys around.

btw - did you mean guarantees as a % of total deal for WRs were bigger?

I added these on 9/15, so on accurate up to that week.

In 30 career games, he had 493 carries for 2316 yards 4.7 YPC, 15 TDs.

Carries Over 20+ YDs
- 22 carries of 20+ YDs, 5 TDs
- Accounts for 868 or 37.5% of career rush yards
- Subtract those out, his career YPC is 3.07 for 1448 YDs

Career Carries at or Under 0 Yards
- 108 carries for 0 or less yards for a total of -194 yards
- 22% of all carries
- Subtract those out, his career YPC is 6.5 on 2510 yards

Player why the need for defenses to concentrate so much on him?. Why not play a vanilla cover 2 man all game? He isn't a threat to impact games in a positive manner, there really isn't any need to put your defense at risk by bringing a safety up.

In comment 15018228 crick n NC said:

Quote:

Player why the need for defenses to concentrate so much on him?. Why not play a vanilla cover 2 man all game? He isn't a threat to impact games in a positive manner, there really isn't any need to put your defense at risk by bringing a safety up.

Many times team haven't. Some are comfortable their front 6 or 7 will handle the Giants Oline and get to Barkley.

to play him straight up, he's had a lot of big plays. When they crowd the box, Jones has had several big plays:

Jones with Saquon - 9 games:
21 TD's, 8 INT's
265 yds/game
3 games with rating over 120

Jones without Saquon: - 8 games
5 TDs - 9INT's
217 yds/gm
0 games with rating over 120

When teams can play straight up and stop tghe run, that's when we've had a lot of problems navigating the Cover 2. Which are predominantly the games that Barkley missed. Even in the opener, Pittsburgh sold out to stop the run - the impact - deep TD to Slayton

the Steelers won.

In comment 15018214 christian said:

Quote:

I added these on 9/15, so on accurate up to that week. In 30 career games, he had 493 carries for 2316 yards 4.7 YPC, 15 TDs. Carries Over 20+ YDs - 22 carries of 20+ YDs, 5 TDs - Accounts for 868 or 37.5% of career rush yards - Subtract those out, his career YPC is 3.07 for 1448 YDs Career Carries at or Under 0 Yards - 108 carries for 0 or less yards for a total of -194 yards - 22% of all carries - Subtract those out, his career YPC is 6.5 on 2510 yards

Thanks christian.
And sorry for mistakenly attributing these to JonC.
37.5% on 22 carries. That's just awfully bad inconsistency.

crick:
How much impact can he have had when the team has gone 5-11, 4-12, and 0-2(before he went down). And during that time we have seen some of the worst offensive play in Giants history. This crap about moving safeties and linebackers around is just BS, at least as far as the Giants are concerned. If those players moved, it had very little impact on opposing teams ability to provide more than adequate coverage. So if you can't take advantage of 8 man fronts, what use is it. If the team did not/does not have the personnel to take advantage of 8 man fronts, then why is the team bothering to pick Barkley. For reference in 2018 Barkley faced 8 man fronts 23% of the time (arguably a high percentage). He actually has better stats against 8 man fronts than fewer. Mostly because he busted some long plays against 8 man fronts. That is the risk with 8 man fronts, if the RB gets past the 8th man, there isn't much left that can run him down. However, that still means that 77% of his runs were not vs. stacked fronts. So I'm not really buying this argument that he changes the defenses all that much.

in general:
Please spare me any excuses about the offensive line being bad. There were plenty of folks who said that he was so good that he didn't need a really good offensive line. Complaining about his OL now is moving the goalposts.

In comment 15018273 LBH15 said:

Quote:

the Steelers won.

As long as you and Terps can fall back on “we haven’t won” I guess you will never ever be wrong. I just hope you apply that logic to all teams with great players that never win anything. It couldn’t possibly be anyone else’s fault that their team stinks...

I’ve given a ton in this debate and agreed on many points. You guys are now being disingenuous which is why discussing this is so annoying (and why I stopped participating in many of these threads as of late). I’d love to see Derrick Henry and Barkley swap teams. I’m fairly certain what the result would be. Barkley would look stellar over there and Henry would struggle to hit 4 ypc here. We’d have roughly the same record as we do when Barkley plays.

In comment 15018273 LBH15 said:

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the Steelers won.

exactly!

And the team scored a whopping 16 points.

TheGratefulHead - 100% agree with your OP. My posts above support it.

In comment 15018286 .McL. said:

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In comment 15018273 LBH15 said: Quote: the Steelers won. exactly! And the team scored a whopping 16 points.

Mcl, I don't care what others claimed about Barkley and you are not to hold me accountable for their poor takes. I base my football thoughts on the basis that football is a team sport which means players somewhat rely on their teammates to do their job so they can do theirs.

In comment 15018295 crick n NC said:

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In comment 15018286 .McL. said: Quote: In comment 15018273 LBH15 said: Quote: the Steelers won. exactly! And the team scored a whopping 16 points. Mcl, I don't care what others claimed about Barkley and you are not to hold me accountable for their poor takes. I base my football thoughts on the basis that football is a team sport which means players somewhat rely on their teammates to do their job so they can do theirs.

I tried to address to you only the comments you made. You were talking about defenses keying on Barkley... That usually translates to 8 man fronts. I was referencing your comment on teams "focusing" on Barkley. The "in general" part was not meant to be directed at you (thus the "in general" tag vs. the "crick" tag), but to anybody who would now blame the OL after saying he didn't need a good OL to perform. Not to you specifically. Sorry if that was not clear.

My mistake, thanks.

My mistake, thanks.

Apology. Two is better than one.

In comment 15018308 crick n NC said:

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Apology. Two is better than one.

:)

In comment 15018285 UConn4523 said:

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I’ve given a ton in this debate and agreed on many points. You guys are now being disingenuous which is why discussing this is so annoying (and why I stopped participating in many of these threads as of late). I’d love to see Derrick Henry and Barkley swap teams. I’m fairly certain what the result would be. Barkley would look stellar over there and Henry would struggle to hit 4 ypc here. We’d have roughly the same record as we do when Barkley plays.

I don't know about that. Henry seems to be a more efficient runner than Barkely with his north-south style. Barkley is more of a ballerina. Henry is an earth mover.

Plus, you can't underestimate Henry's ability to take it wide, plant, and then turn the corner. He's very nimble for a size.

Even with our OL, I think he'd be more effective than you think. Definitely not putting up his current production, but he'd be hitting holes harder and creating yards by running through people.

But, to your point, I could see Barkley doing some good things in Tennessee. Not sure, however, if Barkley could handle the load of carries that Henry does...

see, we can all get along!

In comment 15018285 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 15018273 LBH15 said: Quote: the Steelers won. As long as you and Terps can fall back on “we haven’t won” I guess you will never ever be wrong. I just hope you apply that logic to all teams with great players that never win anything. It couldn’t possibly be anyone else’s fault that their team stinks... I’ve given a ton in this debate and agreed on many points. You guys are now being disingenuous which is why discussing this is so annoying (and why I stopped participating in many of these threads as of late). I’d love to see Derrick Henry and Barkley swap teams. I’m fairly certain what the result would be. Barkley would look stellar over there and Henry would struggle to hit 4 ypc here. We’d have roughly the same record as we do when Barkley plays.

What the hell are u getting so bent here?

I made a simple comment that the Steelers put in an obvious gameplan to shut down Barkley and the impact of executing that strategy was a win versus the Giants. Slayton may have gotten a long TD catch but the Steelers risked that happening and still won.