I love Saquan as a person and he is exciting to watch. The comp people use for him is Barry Sanders. I was never a Barry Sanders fan. My favorite backs growing up were Earl Campbell and Walter Payton. My style preference is different. I think Barry was an all time great.
I can't help but have watched Freeman for the last few weeks and not think this team is better served by a back that takes the first crease with authority and goes 3, 3, 3, 4, 11, 2, 3, 7, 15, 3 ect. DJ and the OL needs more 2nd and 6 than the threat of the back going for 6 on any given play.
We lost our undisputed best player and we look no different at all. You could make the argument that we look better. I think you can forever place me in the camp that believes you should NEVER draft a running back high in the first now.
I also like what the Patriots do. They have a group of role players, and offensive packages designed around each.
Defenses are allowed to play us straight up, settle in a Cover 2, and play single coverage on WR's who can't get separation, even on intermediate routes.
Let's do this one more time and see how we look no different:
Jones with Saquon - 9 games:
21 TD's, 8 INT's
265 yds/game
3 games with rating over 120
Jones without Saquon: - 8 games
5 TDs - 9INT's
217 yds/gm
0 games with rating over 120
We look dramatically different
The issues with Saqoun's game have been roundly discussed, but he is still one of, if not THE most talented RB's to ever play the game. He has talent up the yang-yang, he will make unbelievable, eye-popping gaudy plays and role up stats, but the problem is his issues prevent him for having a consistently positive effect on winning games. I.e., doing the dirty work, and doing it at a level commensurate with his size and talent.
Defenses are allowed to play us straight up, settle in a Cover 2, and play single coverage on WR's who can't get separation, even on intermediate routes.
Let's do this one more time and see how we look no different:
Jones with Saquon - 9 games:
21 TD's, 8 INT's
265 yds/game
3 games with rating over 120
Jones without Saquon: - 8 games
5 TDs - 9INT's
217 yds/gm
0 games with rating over 120
We look dramatically different
Totally agree Freeman is better. If you want to win Freeman and Gallman are your backs. If you want showmanship and losing Saquon is your back.
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no different?? We still haven't gotten D's to respect the run by loading the box like they did for Saquon. We still don't have that 1 or 2 plays a game Saquon would give that were explosive.
Defenses are allowed to play us straight up, settle in a Cover 2, and play single coverage on WR's who can't get separation, even on intermediate routes.
Let's do this one more time and see how we look no different:
Jones with Saquon - 9 games:
21 TD's, 8 INT's
265 yds/game
3 games with rating over 120
Jones without Saquon: - 8 games
5 TDs - 9INT's
217 yds/gm
0 games with rating over 120
We look dramatically different
Separate the years. This year's offense is vastly different than last year's and Freeman just got up to speed as he had not been playing at all.
Freeman is running against a normal front. In the Steelers game, there were 8 in the box. Not surprisingly, it was also a game that Jones was able to hit Slayton with the longest TD of the season.
Totally agree Freeman is better. If you want to win Freeman and Gallman are your backs. If you want showmanship and losing Saquon is your back.
Such a stupid take. Barry Sanders hasn't been a Lion the last 2 decades, have they won at any point since he retired?
You don't like Barkley or like the team makeup of having him? Fine, but posts like these are worthless.
Defenses are allowed to play us straight up, settle in a Cover 2, and play single coverage on WR's who can't get separation, even on intermediate routes.
Let's do this one more time and see how we look no different:
Jones with Saquon - 9 games:
21 TD's, 8 INT's
265 yds/game
3 games with rating over 120
Jones without Saquon: - 8 games
5 TDs - 9INT's
217 yds/gm
0 games with rating over 120
We look dramatically different
dammit. Don't let facts get in the way.
It never worked in the 90s before the rule changes and a better back ie Sanders ; it sure won't work now.
We need a better QB and Freeman and Gallman can get their 100 yards a game like in the Cowboys game. That is all that is required. you can trade Jones and Saquon. Get Lawrence and start to rebuild this team with a shit ton of 3rd round picks after showing resume dave the door.
Now this is not to say Freeman is as good as Barkley. He is not. But he's a pro back when healthy. He was once top-5 in the NFL. Maybe now he is top-15/20 if totally sound. Good player.
It never worked in the 90s before the rule changes and a better back ie Sanders ; it sure won't work now.
We need a better QB and Freeman and Gallman can get their 100 yards a game like in the Cowboys game. That is all that is required. you can trade Jones and Saquon. Get Lawrence and start to rebuild this team with a shit ton of 3rd round picks after showing resume dave the door.
Let's trade players that were first round picks for 3rd rounders. We will be great! Then we can draft whoever we draft in the first round this year for a third rounder next year!
Have you applied for the GM job yet?
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And that was back when passing wasn't as easy before the rule changes.
Totally agree Freeman is better. If you want to win Freeman and Gallman are your backs. If you want showmanship and losing Saquon is your back.
Such a stupid take. Barry Sanders hasn't been a Lion the last 2 decades, have they won at any point since he retired?
You don't like Barkley or like the team makeup of having him? Fine, but posts like these are worthless.
What does the fact that Lions not winning anything since B Sanders retiring, have to do with anything? you don't automatically win by wising up that you are on the wrong course. But it is a start.
Just like when Jones fails year after year, all the Jonsers are going to be like "well if he just had a Tight end to throw too. I mean Brady always had Gronk." Or if he just had a better coach." And on and on. When the thing to do with Jones and barkley is cut bait.
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This is now a pass league. has been for a long time. The focal point on offense should not be a running back.
It never worked in the 90s before the rule changes and a better back ie Sanders ; it sure won't work now.
We need a better QB and Freeman and Gallman can get their 100 yards a game like in the Cowboys game. That is all that is required. you can trade Jones and Saquon. Get Lawrence and start to rebuild this team with a shit ton of 3rd round picks after showing resume dave the door.
Let's trade players that were first round picks for 3rd rounders. We will be great! Then we can draft whoever we draft in the first round this year for a third rounder next year!
Have you applied for the GM job yet?
No we draft Trevor Lawrence this year. Jones and Barley never should have been taken that high so we are even on that front.
That being said, I think Freeman is a tough N/S runner and it is fun to watch him grind out the yards. One thing that is telling is Gallman is still not getting touches - at this point we have to put that on him. Hopefully DF stays injury-free.
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In comment 15015678 Black_Flag said:
Quote:
And that was back when passing wasn't as easy before the rule changes.
Totally agree Freeman is better. If you want to win Freeman and Gallman are your backs. If you want showmanship and losing Saquon is your back.
Such a stupid take. Barry Sanders hasn't been a Lion the last 2 decades, have they won at any point since he retired?
You don't like Barkley or like the team makeup of having him? Fine, but posts like these are worthless.
What does the fact that Lions not winning anything since B Sanders retiring, have to do with anything? you don't automatically win by wising up that you are on the wrong course. But it is a start.
Just like when Jones fails year after year, all the Jonsers are going to be like "well if he just had a Tight end to throw too. I mean Brady always had Gronk." Or if he just had a better coach." And on and on. When the thing to do with Jones and barkley is cut bait.
hmm.. Jones I agree has to prove he belongs but Barkley? I was not a fan of spending a #2 on Barkley but his talent is undeniable. He is top-3 in terms of talent among RBs in the NFL. Now maybe the move is to trade him to a team that is on the brink if the Giants can get something great but let's be clear, whether it was smart to pick him second or not, Barkley is a stud.
Quote:
In comment 15015696 Black_Flag said:
Quote:
This is now a pass league. has been for a long time. The focal point on offense should not be a running back.
It never worked in the 90s before the rule changes and a better back ie Sanders ; it sure won't work now.
We need a better QB and Freeman and Gallman can get their 100 yards a game like in the Cowboys game. That is all that is required. you can trade Jones and Saquon. Get Lawrence and start to rebuild this team with a shit ton of 3rd round picks after showing resume dave the door.
Let's trade players that were first round picks for 3rd rounders. We will be great! Then we can draft whoever we draft in the first round this year for a third rounder next year!
Have you applied for the GM job yet?
No we draft Trevor Lawrence this year. Jones and Barley never should have been taken that high so we are even on that front.
How do you get Trevor Lawrence from the Jets if he comes out? Will the Jets be enticed by all those valuable 3rd rounders?
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In comment 15015656 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
no different?? We still haven't gotten D's to respect the run by loading the box like they did for Saquon. We still don't have that 1 or 2 plays a game Saquon would give that were explosive.
Defenses are allowed to play us straight up, settle in a Cover 2, and play single coverage on WR's who can't get separation, even on intermediate routes.
Let's do this one more time and see how we look no different:
Jones with Saquon - 9 games:
21 TD's, 8 INT's
265 yds/game
3 games with rating over 120
Jones without Saquon: - 8 games
5 TDs - 9INT's
217 yds/gm
0 games with rating over 120
We look dramatically different
Separate the years. This year's offense is vastly different than last year's and Freeman just got up to speed as he had not been playing at all.
Freeman is running against a normal front. In the Steelers game, there were 8 in the box. Not surprisingly, it was also a game that Jones was able to hit Slayton with the longest TD of the season.
Here is the deal. I can wait and watch over a number of games. To me, Freeman's running style seems to fit better what Garret is trying to accomplish. I am pulling from a lifetime of watching the sport. If he sees a few yards, he puts his head down and dives at them. It isn't flashy but I like it. Not apologizing for my take.
It is what it is.
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In comment 15015678 Black_Flag said:
Quote:
And that was back when passing wasn't as easy before the rule changes.
Totally agree Freeman is better. If you want to win Freeman and Gallman are your backs. If you want showmanship and losing Saquon is your back.
Such a stupid take. Barry Sanders hasn't been a Lion the last 2 decades, have they won at any point since he retired?
You don't like Barkley or like the team makeup of having him? Fine, but posts like these are worthless.
What does the fact that Lions not winning anything since B Sanders retiring, have to do with anything? you don't automatically win by wising up that you are on the wrong course. But it is a start.
Just like when Jones fails year after year, all the Jonsers are going to be like "well if he just had a Tight end to throw too. I mean Brady always had Gronk." Or if he just had a better coach." And on and on. When the thing to do with Jones and barkley is cut bait.
It means Barry Sanders isn't why they didn't win a championship. ITs a miserable franchise and always has been.
No idea what you are talking about in general, you brought him up, not me and my response was to exactly that. You have a really bad habit of making some bold claim, getting called out on it and then asking about the response like its been written in mandarin.
There's a reason why I don't find your name much on non-bitching about the Giants threads. You don't have much to add.
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You don't care that a key strategic move is being employed and has an impact?? If you don't care about that, exactly what worth is it about all the years you've been watching the game? Sounds like you haven't learned shit in that time.
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In comment 15015692 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15015678 Black_Flag said:
Quote:
And that was back when passing wasn't as easy before the rule changes.
Totally agree Freeman is better. If you want to win Freeman and Gallman are your backs. If you want showmanship and losing Saquon is your back.
Such a stupid take. Barry Sanders hasn't been a Lion the last 2 decades, have they won at any point since he retired?
You don't like Barkley or like the team makeup of having him? Fine, but posts like these are worthless.
What does the fact that Lions not winning anything since B Sanders retiring, have to do with anything? you don't automatically win by wising up that you are on the wrong course. But it is a start.
Just like when Jones fails year after year, all the Jonsers are going to be like "well if he just had a Tight end to throw too. I mean Brady always had Gronk." Or if he just had a better coach." And on and on. When the thing to do with Jones and barkley is cut bait.
hmm.. Jones I agree has to prove he belongs but Barkley? I was not a fan of spending a #2 on Barkley but his talent is undeniable. He is top-3 in terms of talent among RBs in the NFL. Now maybe the move is to trade him to a team that is on the brink if the Giants can get something great but let's be clear, whether it was smart to pick him second or not, Barkley is a stud.
No he is not. This not college football when the passing and the tacking sucks so backs can win games for you; including QBs running.
In the NFL there is no style points. You don't control the clock with style runs. 90% of the time is just smashing it up the middle for 5 yards on a first down. Or getting a good run on like a 2nd and 6th when the defense knows you are running late in a game but you run and get a first down anyway by tough physical play. THAT IS NOT BARLKEY'S GAME.
He would make a good slot back or someone you can throw a screen too with misdirection or a toss to the outside. But that is not what starting backs do.
An argument can be made for either strategy. Hard to gauge what would be best given the rest of our skill positions and OL woes.
Agreed. 16th in offense in 2018, 18th in 2019, 31st in 2020. If the 2018 team had this defense we'd be a possible playoff team.
He didn't help Eli keep his job.
We haven't won many games with him.
He is out with an injury that may rob him of some of his explosiveness and lead to arthritis(meniscus).
In hindsight, I wish we had done something different. The drop off to running back by committee because of what we have done in the past doesn't seem great enough to justify the 2nd pick anymore to me.
I used believed differently but based on what we have witnessed over his young career, I have changed my mind.
When this year is done, Barkley will have played in 9 games that we won in 3 years. It isn't enough.
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In comment 15015692 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15015678 Black_Flag said:
Quote:
And that was back when passing wasn't as easy before the rule changes.
Totally agree Freeman is better. If you want to win Freeman and Gallman are your backs. If you want showmanship and losing Saquon is your back.
Such a stupid take. Barry Sanders hasn't been a Lion the last 2 decades, have they won at any point since he retired?
You don't like Barkley or like the team makeup of having him? Fine, but posts like these are worthless.
What does the fact that Lions not winning anything since B Sanders retiring, have to do with anything? you don't automatically win by wising up that you are on the wrong course. But it is a start.
Just like when Jones fails year after year, all the Jonsers are going to be like "well if he just had a Tight end to throw too. I mean Brady always had Gronk." Or if he just had a better coach." And on and on. When the thing to do with Jones and barkley is cut bait.
It means Barry Sanders isn't why they didn't win a championship. ITs a miserable franchise and always has been.
No idea what you are talking about in general, you brought him up, not me and my response was to exactly that. You have a really bad habit of making some bold claim, getting called out on it and then asking about the response like its been written in mandarin.
There's a reason why I don't find your name much on non-bitching about the Giants threads. You don't have much to add.
No idea what I am talking about and your response was to exactly that? What?
Go fuck yourself.
And Eli didn't keep his job because he wasn't good anymore. 2018 happened, Barkley's 2000 yards and 15 TD's happened - Eli should have played a lot better and he didn't. 21 TD's in 16 games just doesn't cut it, especially with that type of production on the ground.
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In comment 15015711 Black_Flag said:
Quote:
In comment 15015692 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15015678 Black_Flag said:
Quote:
And that was back when passing wasn't as easy before the rule changes.
Totally agree Freeman is better. If you want to win Freeman and Gallman are your backs. If you want showmanship and losing Saquon is your back.
Such a stupid take. Barry Sanders hasn't been a Lion the last 2 decades, have they won at any point since he retired?
You don't like Barkley or like the team makeup of having him? Fine, but posts like these are worthless.
What does the fact that Lions not winning anything since B Sanders retiring, have to do with anything? you don't automatically win by wising up that you are on the wrong course. But it is a start.
Just like when Jones fails year after year, all the Jonsers are going to be like "well if he just had a Tight end to throw too. I mean Brady always had Gronk." Or if he just had a better coach." And on and on. When the thing to do with Jones and barkley is cut bait.
hmm.. Jones I agree has to prove he belongs but Barkley? I was not a fan of spending a #2 on Barkley but his talent is undeniable. He is top-3 in terms of talent among RBs in the NFL. Now maybe the move is to trade him to a team that is on the brink if the Giants can get something great but let's be clear, whether it was smart to pick him second or not, Barkley is a stud.
No he is not. This not college football when the passing and the tacking sucks so backs can win games for you; including QBs running.
In the NFL there is no style points. You don't control the clock with style runs. 90% of the time is just smashing it up the middle for 5 yards on a first down. Or getting a good run on like a 2nd and 6th when the defense knows you are running late in a game but you run and get a first down anyway by tough physical play. THAT IS NOT BARLKEY'S GAME.
He would make a good slot back or someone you can throw a screen too with misdirection or a toss to the outside. But that is not what starting backs do.
ok.. i am somewhat with you there. Barkley is just not a great btwn the tackles runner -- yet. Not as good at that as Zeke or Chubb. But he's phenomenal regardless. Great pass catcher. phenomenal speed and ability to cut without losing acceleration. He could and should be coached to hammer the ball better, i agree. or perhaps used as more of a jack knife, in the lost, out wide, in the backfield - heck that might make him even more valuable and extend his career.
He didn't help Eli keep his job.
We haven't won many games with him.
He is out with an injury that may rob him of some of his explosiveness and lead to arthritis(meniscus).
In hindsight, I wish we had done something different. The drop off to running back by committee because of what we have done in the past doesn't seem great enough to justify the 2nd pick anymore to me.
I used believed differently but based on what we have witnessed over his young career, I have changed my mind.
When this year is done, Barkley will have played in 9 games that we won in 3 years. It isn't enough.
The team has been a mess for a while now. How are you able to see through the mess to blame Barkley for lack of wins, and why would you blame one player in a sport that takes a whole unit to function?
We say on one hand that football is the ultimate team sport, then on the other hand assign blame to specific players for lack of wins.
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We all watched. He is exciting. He is talented. He is a great human.
He didn't help Eli keep his job.
We haven't won many games with him.
He is out with an injury that may rob him of some of his explosiveness and lead to arthritis(meniscus).
In hindsight, I wish we had done something different. The drop off to running back by committee because of what we have done in the past doesn't seem great enough to justify the 2nd pick anymore to me.
I used believed differently but based on what we have witnessed over his young career, I have changed my mind.
When this year is done, Barkley will have played in 9 games that we won in 3 years. It isn't enough.
The team has been a mess for a while now. How are you able to see through the mess to blame Barkley for lack of wins, and why would you blame one player in a sport that takes a whole unit to function?
We say on one hand that football is the ultimate team sport, then on the other hand assign blame to specific players for lack of wins.
I am saying that in his first 3 years he didn't make a difference that resulted in enough wins to justify the selection.
We sucked with Barkley in the game.
We sucked without him in the game.
It just is.
The bigger issue is not getting anything out of the second round pick in the draft.
I am so glad you're here man to serve as the post police to see if passes muster with your high standards of what is considered a "good" post. I guess we can continue the excuse making and cheerleading for 2 over-drafted win nothings.
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In comment 15015767 Thegratefulhead said:
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We all watched. He is exciting. He is talented. He is a great human.
He didn't help Eli keep his job.
We haven't won many games with him.
He is out with an injury that may rob him of some of his explosiveness and lead to arthritis(meniscus).
In hindsight, I wish we had done something different. The drop off to running back by committee because of what we have done in the past doesn't seem great enough to justify the 2nd pick anymore to me.
I used believed differently but based on what we have witnessed over his young career, I have changed my mind.
When this year is done, Barkley will have played in 9 games that we won in 3 years. It isn't enough.
The team has been a mess for a while now. How are you able to see through the mess to blame Barkley for lack of wins, and why would you blame one player in a sport that takes a whole unit to function?
We say on one hand that football is the ultimate team sport, then on the other hand assign blame to specific players for lack of wins.
I don't BLAME him. He played hard, he even played hurt by rushing back from injury.
I am saying that in his first 3 years he didn't make a difference that resulted in enough wins to justify the selection.
We sucked with Barkley in the game.
We sucked without him in the game.
It just is.
Well yeah because like I thought I was saying pretty clearly -- running back is not that important a position.
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Sure why rookie deals that have yet to expire and reap damage upon the franchise have already been decided to be a detriment to the future franchise.
The bigger issue is not getting anything out of the second round pick in the draft.
We don't agree on that view Terps. I think Barkley has been a fantastic player individually which is how I tend to judge players. Get enough good individual players and you tend to build a good unit.
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Sure why rookie deals that have yet to expire and reap damage upon the franchise have already been decided to be a detriment to the future franchise.
The bigger issue is not getting anything out of the second round pick in the draft.
What did picking Barkley do for the NY Giants?
What EXACTLY did we get out of it?
With the full benefit of hindsight, it wasn't enough.
I am not going down the subjective road of evaluating every other possible choice.
I don't care.
The second pick in the draft is precious.
I said on the other thread that this year will be good because the OL (and offense) will learn how to win without Barkley, so when he comes back we will be more balanced. This minute the D backs off Barkley will go crazy, like he did as a rookie. When Jones earns the respect of the D they will have to back off, and we will be more balanced.
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In comment 15015800 crick n NC said:
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Sure why rookie deals that have yet to expire and reap damage upon the franchise have already been decided to be a detriment to the future franchise.
The bigger issue is not getting anything out of the second round pick in the draft.
That is a good way of saying it.
What did picking Barkley do for the NY Giants?
What EXACTLY did we get out of it?
With the full benefit of hindsight, it wasn't enough.
I am not going down the subjective road of evaluating every other possible choice.
I don't care.
The second pick in the draft is precious.
What positive results would any second pick in the draft yield to the Giants in their state?